IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gyan » 26 May 2016 13:46

Even though HAL is manufacturing SCB for Su-30MKI, it is possible that HAL is not able to replicate the process for Kaveri Engine as the "Raw Material" would be coming from Russia and HAL may not be able to replicate the exact composition of the alloy to make the crystal grow.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 26 May 2016 18:22

Govt looks at concluding Rafale deal in June: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

"There is no reason why it should not be concluded in June. Not much is left. It is in the last phase," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told PTI here in an interview.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby NRao » 26 May 2016 18:37

400 more fighter jets in Indian Air Force’s vision 2030

The source said the IAF would get 120 Tejas light combat aircraft, another 120 twin-engine mediumweight aircraft to be built in India in collaboration with a foreign manufacturer, and an equal number of single-engine fighter planes. India is currently negotiating a deal with France for buying 36 Rafale fighters and 72 Sukhoi-30 fighters are on order. B ridging the capability gap is vital for the IAF that is saddled with ageing Soviet-era fighters

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 26 May 2016 18:44

NR that does add up to 400 including the Raffys,but the MKIs are probably those already ordered but not yet built.I think we have around 200 only in service. This no. looks like both the Gripen and most probably the SH will both land in India.What a menagerie! I can't understand why LCA prod can't
be ramped up by extra prod units here both with HAL and pvt entities to build 25+ a yr instead of yet another single-engined or med aircraft.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Baikul » 28 May 2016 09:20

Philip wrote:Advice from a top journo on the Raffy issue.
We should stick to the Russians. The performance of their aircraft in Syria has left Americans and others gaping, as has the operations of their forces on the ground. Putin has put everything behind the regeneration of the Russian armed forces, and the results are showing.


Perhaps I have missed some previous background, but assuming there isn't one, I'm not sure what the point of this quote. Perhaps I should quote another top journo who said we should stick to the French because they eat snails and snails are good for vigour.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Chandragupta » 28 May 2016 10:15

Philip wrote:NR that does add up to 400 including the Raffys,but the MKIs are probably those already ordered but not yet built.I think we have around 200 only in service. This no. looks like both the Gripen and most probably the SH will both land in India.What a menagerie! I can't understand why LCA prod can't
be ramped up by extra prod units here both with HAL and pvt entities to build 25+ a yr instead of yet another single-engined or med aircraft.


242 MKIs are in service and another 70 already ordered but not yet built. So total will be 312 when all MKIs are in service. Quite a number that should make Pakis piss in their pants.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 28 May 2016 12:33

CG,wasn't the fig 272? Have the extra 40 spoken of actually been ordered? Yes,300+ MKIs will change the uniform of the PAF to brown,or perhaps even yellow! :rotfl:
60+ 29UGs,40+ M2K UGs and 36+ Rafales will give approx. 150 med multi-role birds,and another 300+ LCAs /single-engine supposed "light fighters" will give us a total of around 750.35-37 sqds. If the FGFA materializes and LCA production ramped up,we may by 2025 attain the holy grail of 45 sqds.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 29 May 2016 16:57

What a fall, from only Gripens will do.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/05/ ... again.html

1 First off, a flourish of typical Swedish optimism. Saab believes that even with the Rafale and the Tejas, there’s operational space for the Gripen in Indian inventory. If that’s anathema to prescribers of type rationalisation, Saab believes its overall package could make the Gripen fit right in. We’ll return to that shortly.
2 What struck me as potentially crucial to Saab’s pitch is that the company has said it will yoke to the Gripen package an offer to transfer its highest-end AESA radar technology, including its award-winning Gallium Nitride (GaN) technology — technology it claims has left U.S. radar houses behind. (It’s interesting of course that the Gripen itself uses the Selex Raven AESA radar, and Saab’s own GaN AESA will only potentially be optional on the jet at some future point). Saab believes the GaN AESA deal could prove a game-changer, if India chooses to partner with Saab in the current indigenous AESA effort being led by the DRDO’s LRDE laboratory. “We would complement Indian industry with experience as a fighter radar system integrator,” says Lars Tossman, Saab’s Head of Airborne Surveillance. Tossman was in India earlier this month for meetings on the GaN AESA with Indian private firms and government representatives. “We opened some eyes,” he told he your correspondent when I asked about how the people he met in India perceived the technology. Saab is also looking at HAL’s RFI for AESA radars. The message is clear: the GaN AESA radar is available to India should it choose to partner with Saab.
3 Saab’s resources are currently focused on the Gripen E, but it recently revealed what looked like a future combat air system (FCAS), a concept that looks vastly similar to an early iteration India’s own AMCA fifth generation concept. Saab plans to formally propose a partnership on the AMCA. So far it’s been in the realm of talk. Mats Palmberg, Saab’s Vice President for Industrial Partnerships in aeronautics told me a joint development of an FCAS-AMCA was something Saab would be deeply interested in. Of course, if that happened, it would be India’s second joint fifth generation fighter programme. Either way, it’s too early for anything but the preliminary discussions that Saab intends to hold with the Indian government.
4 The Tejas, a fighter oft compared with the Gripen C, is a type that has come of age, and despite bumps in its finishing stretch, will see rightful place in the IAF inventory soon. Saab sees an opportunity there too: a multi-tiered technology infusion/consultancy arrangement that could boost the Tejas in its current and/or Mk.2 iteration.
5 Finally, the ‘Make in India’ Gripen package itself: Saab has a fairly detailed floor pitch already. The company has communicated to the Indian government that should India choose to build the Gripen for its IAF, things will lift off with a dedicated Indian Gripen line at Saab’s facilities using Indian industry partners are participants. This line would begin building jets while Saab and its Indian partners build greenfield Gripen infrastructure in India. Once that’s done, indigenous manufacture of the Gripen would begin by Indian industry with Saab support with a phased capacity ramp-up plan built in.


IMHO, this is just a way to get Gripen in by the side.

Selex-ES's Raven ES-05 AESA is not due for FOC by mid 2020's according to Brazilian officials.

Selex is blacklisted from India (Finmeccanica subsidiary).

So now, new even more unproven FCR.

Lets see.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 29 May 2016 18:56

Karan M wrote:What a fall, from only Gripens will do.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/05/ ... again.html


Brazil had the largest number of journalists, officials and military at the ceremony, the country’s flag colours were first to adorn the newly unveiled Gripen Echo after the Swedish blue-yellow.


One can only imagine the bribes that were paid...

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 29 May 2016 19:15

The advantage of collaborating with Saab is that if we partner with them for LCA MK2 and AMCA, probably we would make sure that Indian Military Aviation industry will become what we aspire for (say, MK2 by 2025, AMCA by 2030 production starts). I don't think HAL is in any shape to go for both the projects while adhering to timeline. Another advantage is I am guessing that Saab has better production engineering experience than HAL (screwdriver giri).

The concern is if we have to buy Gripen from Saab in order to make them our partner, it does not spell good for TejasMk1/MK1A.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby sivab » 29 May 2016 20:27

[youtube]watch?v=pvqC4cbTgkk[/youtube]

@20:00 MP says there are only few minor issues left for CNC. If the issues are not resolved he will take it up with French govt to get it resolved. Hopes to get it done next month.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 30 May 2016 02:02

sivab wrote:

@20:00 MP says there are only few minor issues left for CNC. If the issues are not resolved he will take it up with French govt to get it resolved. Hopes to get it done next month.


On that question of Rafale/MMRCA, DM's reply starts off with co-development of FGFA, which is moving to the second phase and says that it will be ready for induction in 7-8 years time. So it would seem that "twin-engine" & "deep penetration" requirement will be fulfiled by FGFA and not by another 4th-Gen airframe. 36 Rafales, along with ongoing Su-30MKI and LCA production and modernization of Jaguars and Mirage-2000s, will provide immediate and sufficient relief towards dwindling squadron strength for the next few years.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2016 03:46

Bhaskar_T wrote:The advantage of collaborating with Saab is that if we partner with them for LCA MK2 and AMCA, probably we would make sure that Indian Military Aviation industry will become what we aspire for (say, MK2 by 2025, AMCA by 2030 production starts). I don't think HAL is in any shape to go for both the projects while adhering to timeline. Another advantage is I am guessing that Saab has better production engineering experience than HAL (screwdriver giri).

The concern is if we have to buy Gripen from Saab in order to make them our partner, it does not spell good for TejasMk1/MK1A.


Did working with RR make HAL into RR?
Did working with MiG, Su-30 male HAL into what we aspire for?

Why do we assume some gora champion will come and solve SDRE issues created by SDREs themselves. Who's doing the production engineering for LCA, LCH, ALH? HAL.

Have the MOD clean up the place then see.. as versus relying on white knights to save heathen souls with their mumbo jumbo and long trips in comfy business class.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 30 May 2016 04:13

Why would superior goras want to make kalurams their equals :wink: What will they gain out of it in the long run Bhaskar_T?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Surya » 30 May 2016 04:43

first of all SAAB itself relies on myriad components from outside Sweden

at this stage we do nto need resources sucked out of LCA

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Rishirishi » 30 May 2016 04:51

Karan M wrote:
Bhaskar_T wrote:The advantage of collaborating with Saab is that if we partner with them for LCA MK2 and AMCA, probably we would make sure that Indian Military Aviation industry will become what we aspire for (say, MK2 by 2025, AMCA by 2030 production starts). I don't think HAL is in any shape to go for both the projects while adhering to timeline. Another advantage is I am guessing that Saab has better production engineering experience than HAL (screwdriver giri).

The concern is if we have to buy Gripen from Saab in order to make them our partner, it does not spell good for TejasMk1/MK1A.


Did working with RR make HAL into RR?
Did working with MiG, Su-30 male HAL into what we aspire for?

Why do we assume some gora champion will come and solve SDRE issues created by SDREs themselves. Who's doing the production engineering for LCA, LCH, ALH? HAL.

Have the MOD clean up the place then see.. as versus relying on white knights to save heathen souls with their mumbo jumbo and long trips in comfy business class.



Sweden and SAAB is in no position to survive in the long term,as fighter manufacturars by itself. It needs a larger market to fund the development. Sweeds have the experiance to build new stuff.

One solution could be a joint company that develops the next generation jet with and Indian partner (Not HAL). In return India could purchase the 200+ Gripen it needs from the Joint company. All the fighters must be made in India.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Surya » 30 May 2016 04:57

problem is where will this new joint company get its human resources
we are not exactly overflowing right now and HAL and other DRDO are having tough enough time retaining existing resources

they will raid HAL

and the LCA will suffer

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 30 May 2016 10:45

Indian pvt. industry,at Bangalore can do the business.Years ago there was an independent US co. very famous,McDonnell-Douglas now part of Boeing,Lockheed,whoever.I strongly advocate a celebrated Indian co. with years of aviation experience,with strangely a similar sounding name with a Chairman with aeons of international travelling and business interests.One "McDowell-Kingpisser"!!
The King-Kong of good times,Vijay Mallya ,will be the best person to build the LCA,Gripen,whatever given his vast expertise in sending people "high" on millions of litres of spirits and beer. Funding will not be any problem for him.Bank chiefs will be falling over themselves to lend him billions-not that he doesn't have access to such funds abroad!
Why,he may even supply the IAF with enough cheap "fuel" for its aircraft,canteen stores,and cases for multi-starred officers and babus,thus reducing our dependence upon foreign oil.

One condition though,he I am reliably told wants to rename the Rafale to "Refill"! :rotfl:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Khalsa » 30 May 2016 14:38

Goodbye Rafael , Goodbye French
God I wish this deal is over one way or another.

Its AMCA Time

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 30 May 2016 14:54

Sweden and SAAB is in no position to survive in the long term,as fighter manufacturars by itself. It needs a larger market to fund the development. Sweeds have the experiance to build new stuff.

One solution could be a joint company that develops the next generation jet with and Indian partner (Not HAL). In return India could purchase the 200+ Gripen it needs from the Joint company. All the fighters must be made in India.


Slightly OT but this isn't really how Sweden or rest of Europe will play out. They are already consolidating around the center of excellence model and I think the next cycle which will be Unmanned before manned (Taranis, Neuron and then a fighter) would see even more consolidation with the strategic companies (SAAB is for Sweden, what Dassault is for France...) leading the integration rather than the fabrication of components. This will allow what one of SAAB's ex-executives recently dubbed as 'common sense independence' going forward. SAAB already enjoyed a similar level of relationship with US OEM's (GE, Triquint, L3 etc) and they'll move some of this to Europe to develop scale for similar requirements. How Post-Neuron world shapes up, and how much does SAAB get in terms of production or development share in the FCAS remains to be seen, but the technology and investment (production) base around Europe would exist for them to simply borrow end-items and integrate into a unmanned stealthy vehicle. How they choose to go about it remains to be seen since for them its always been defense first while FCAS is no doubt an offensive system. They don't deliver an FOC Gripen E/F till the middle of next decade and that will form Sweden's next generation fighter..what follows is probably looking at a timeline closed to 2040 so there is probably room for a few unmanned concepts in between.

But the spin vis-a-vis the Indian offer is quite facinating). They are upgrading the legacy radar, with their first platform specific AESA not expected to be fully operational for half a decade to a decade and they are already marketing its follow up and claiming that it will be a world's first leapfrogging other competitors :) [ Especially those that have demonstrated integrated, iteratively improved AESA's across legacy and NG platforms, with practically all being multi-purpose including EW modes). Their marketing had a similar approach to the EW system when they started marketing a GaN EW active/passive system in the early late 2000's claiming it will be a world's first. Fast forward, and the F-15 will beat them to operational capability with the EPAWSS and even the Rafale will demo GaN components into its Spectra RF aspect before them.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 30 May 2016 16:10

Well, after some time when India decided to procure Su30MKI (1998-2000?) and got the license production of Su30MKI and started building Su30MKI (2002-2004?), we realized ToT offered or realized was merely screwdrivergiri (these were times when India's Tejas probably had first few flights). 10-15 years down the line since 2000, India (MOD, HAL, ADA) now has lot of experience to sail the LCA project to its conclusion, i.e. helping the nation to have Tejas flying in hundreds in IAF/Navy. Also, we know what Tot means and are in far more superior position to command "What do we want". Bringing Saab and HAL together can generate synergies. Both HAL and Saab would eventually one day want (wanting and realizing are very different) to make desirable fighter aircraft's for exports (in addition to consumption by Indian military).

Coming back to your point, are we not doing local production already ourselves!! Yes, we are but it does not give confidence to me that in next 10 years, HAL will give us 14 squadrons of Tejas as Mig replacements, despite raising the production capacity to 16-32 :roll: (Neither Raksha Mantri ji believes in this). As Rishi mentioned, Saab may not do brilliantly well in coming decade because of lack of orders (yeah, there is one small order from Brazil). Hence, Saab would want to have a JV with HAL which is financially stable and there is no lack of orders, whichever fighter aircraft the JV produces (say India agrees to buy 2 squadron of Gripen - yeah it is 2 squadrons less of Mk1). What HAL gets is, sense of private production, seriousness, quality control and a helping hand in some technologies. More so, real value addition would be acceleration of Mk2 and AMCA. We can hope that this JV (51% HAL, 49% Saab) strives for technology, adheres to timelines and produce cheaper aircrafts for domestic and foreign exports. Reason I don't mention Tata or Reliance is that Saab definitely has much more aviation engineering experience than the two (This is what made Anil Ambani complaining in a MII program that Reliance wasn't given the opportunity of making Komarov helicopters). Based on what I see and know, IMO it is going to be very difficult for HAL to focus on MK1A, MK2, Navy MK2, AMCA, deliver on prototypes, better the prototypes, absorb evolving new techs and yet deliver on time.

The real value by working with Saab could turn out to be, acceleration of "Make In India" plus faster learning of technologies. Doing it alone will work but may take a long long time. In the new JV set-up, undoubtedly the construct can be HAL is a king, Saab would be Mahamantri or Senapati or even smaller. The primary reason of mergers or acquisitions within industry is to help each other filling the gaps and compete strongly.

Karan M wrote:
Did working with RR make HAL into RR?
Did working with MiG, Su-30 male HAL into what we aspire for?

Why do we assume some gora champion will come and solve SDRE issues created by SDREs themselves. Who's doing the production engineering for LCA, LCH, ALH? HAL.

Have the MOD clean up the place then see.. as versus relying on white knights to save heathen souls with their mumbo jumbo and long trips in comfy business class.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby fanne » 30 May 2016 16:55

But what guarantee that SAAB ToT will not be screwdriver giri. Maybe the screwdriver may come automated this time, but what is new? yes time is of the essence here, but LCA is roughly 60% indigenous. Let's strive to make the rest 40% (or a high %) as well (parallel programmes), along with the engine (Kaveri resurrected to deliver 404/414 type capability, let it take time), any delay (not desirable, but if happens) means that production aircraft will have more and more indigenous component.
Also with everything indigenous, the growth is easy, every component maker should have a mandate that in x years, it will have the next generation of that equipment. With ready orders, these companies will also invest in r&d.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 30 May 2016 17:15

Bhaskar_T,

All of the major components (wings, front/mid/rear fuselage, tail etc) of LCA manufacturing/assembly are in the process of being outsourced to Tier-1 companies like L&T, TATA etc. They in-turn are going to rely on hundreds/thousands of Tier-2/3 companies for parts and materials. HAL is moving more towards just being the final assembly. The move towards building a viable Indian aerospace ecosystem (public/private partnerships) is well underway through the LCA. Let this ecosystem mature further. Why is there a need to pay Gripen guys xx-sums of FOREX to setup "second" line under some artificial/legacy ToT? All they will do is hinder indigenous progress because slower the progress for India more business for them longer. As the saying goes, beware of sweet talkers.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 30 May 2016 19:44

Bhaskar, if Su-30 MKI (wherein we make some 70% components in India) is "screwdrivergiri" and even after BAe, Sukhoi all transferred their production engineering in many respects to India, HAL per your own remarks is still struggling with making LCA in #.

So why will Saab decide to create a competitor in India & why will HAL, which hitherto has been happy with "screwdrivergiri" of whatever level change?

My point is look within, instead of constantly looking without.

Issue is zimbly, it was not in the benefit of those who benefit from imports for HAL to change. Take that away and then lets see.

Bhaskar_T wrote:Well, after some time when India decided to procure Su30MKI (1998-2000?) and got the license production of Su30MKI and started building Su30MKI (2002-2004?), we realized ToT offered or realized was merely screwdrivergiri (these were times when India's Tejas probably had first few flights). 10-15 years down the line since 2000, India (MOD, HAL, ADA) now has lot of experience to sail the LCA project to its conclusion, i.e. helping the nation to have Tejas flying in hundreds in IAF/Navy. Also, we know what Tot means and are in far more superior position to command "What do we want". Bringing Saab and HAL together can generate synergies. Both HAL and Saab would eventually one day want (wanting and realizing are very different) to make desirable fighter aircraft's for exports (in addition to consumption by Indian military).

Coming back to your point, are we not doing local production already ourselves!! Yes, we are but it does not give confidence to me that in next 10 years, HAL will give us 14 squadrons of Tejas as Mig replacements, despite raising the production capacity to 16-32 :roll: (Neither Raksha Mantri ji believes in this). As Rishi mentioned, Saab may not do brilliantly well in coming decade because of lack of orders (yeah, there is one small order from Brazil). Hence, Saab would want to have a JV with HAL which is financially stable and there is no lack of orders, whichever fighter aircraft the JV produces (say India agrees to buy 2 squadron of Gripen - yeah it is 2 squadrons less of Mk1). What HAL gets is, sense of private production, seriousness, quality control and a helping hand in some technologies. More so, real value addition would be acceleration of Mk2 and AMCA. We can hope that this JV (51% HAL, 49% Saab) strives for technology, adheres to timelines and produce cheaper aircrafts for domestic and foreign exports. Reason I don't mention Tata or Reliance is that Saab definitely has much more aviation engineering experience than the two (This is what made Anil Ambani complaining in a MII program that Reliance wasn't given the opportunity of making Komarov helicopters). Based on what I see and know, IMO it is going to be very difficult for HAL to focus on MK1A, MK2, Navy MK2, AMCA, deliver on prototypes, better the prototypes, absorb evolving new techs and yet deliver on time.

The real value by working with Saab could turn out to be, acceleration of "Make In India" plus faster learning of technologies. Doing it alone will work but may take a long long time. In the new JV set-up, undoubtedly the construct can be HAL is a king, Saab would be Mahamantri or Senapati or even smaller. The primary reason of mergers or acquisitions within industry is to help each other filling the gaps and compete strongly.

Karan M wrote:
Did working with RR make HAL into RR?
Did working with MiG, Su-30 male HAL into what we aspire for?

Why do we assume some gora champion will come and solve SDRE issues created by SDREs themselves. Who's doing the production engineering for LCA, LCH, ALH? HAL.

Have the MOD clean up the place then see.. as versus relying on white knights to save heathen souls with their mumbo jumbo and long trips in comfy business class.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gyan » 31 May 2016 07:48

Can somebody comment on the extent of indigenisation of Su-30MKI avionics, radar, electronics, etc?

Also what about hydraulics, actuators, ejection seats, landing gear, canopy etc?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby srai » 31 May 2016 08:45

Gyan wrote:Can somebody comment on the extent of indigenisation of Su-30MKI avionics, radar, electronics, etc?

Also what about hydraulics, actuators, ejection seats, landing gear, canopy etc?


Define indigenization?

If you mean local manufacture of airframe parts and assembly under ToT from raw materials (some of which are supplied by Russians), then that should be quite high as HAL and its local suppliers are making 12 units/year from ground up. Engines have less percentage of local manufacture.

But if you mean locally designed parts replacing various components, then those are more or less fixed to original Indian participation through Project Vetrivale along with some success with things like MRF tyres. Qualifying new items to replace OEM designed/tested ones are not trivial, and those would also require amendments to original contract and OEM participation. There should be scope for more Indian designed parts during "Super-MKI" MLU being planned.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 31 May 2016 09:39

For those advocating the SH as a "filler" for the IAFpl ,take note. The USNI reports that the USN is facing difficulty in keeping SHs aloft due to sqd shortage/availability. This is impinging on readiness if any crisis/war erupts as the JSF is also way behind schedule/induction.

The big Q reg the Rafale deal now in its "last gasp before the tape" state,is when will these beauteous French fillies arrive? It looks like the only new aircraft we'll be getting until 2020 are more MKIs and as many LCAs as HAL can produce. The FGFA ta this rate if the deal is concluded will arrive in service around 2025,as the IAF seem to want their final version before the Russian one. With hundreds of MIG-21s retiring,there is going to be a huge gap of vulnerability unless extra MKIs are ordered from Russia to complement the desi built ones which are also more expensive to build. Jaguar upgrades must aslo begin this year if they are to retain their relevance in the next decade,being an aircraft that is a 40-50 yr old design!

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 31 May 2016 14:41

Dassault Aviation ready to sign Rafale deal, ball in India's court
Tue May 31, 2016

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/id ... D?irpc=932


PARIS (Reuters) - Dassault Aviation is ready to sign a contract with India at any moment, but the ball is in India's court, chief executive Eric Trappier told French daily Les Echos in an interview published on Tuesday.

The Indian defence ministry said in April protracted talks to buy 36 French Rafale fighter jets were nearing the finish line.

"We are ready to conclude (the sale) at any moment, the ball is in the Indian government's camp," Trappier was quoted as saying.

Asked about reports in Indian media that a bank guarantee was required for the deal, he said that was not the case since the deal was already guaranteed by the French state.

Asked about business jets, Trappier said: "Business jets are a good barometer of the global economy, and, this year, it will be difficult."


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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_27581 » 31 May 2016 16:10

^^They are ready to sign since the results were announced six-seven years back, and so is MoD. The challenge is to have an agreement. The article doesnt mention the sticking points e.g. price, servicing agreements, weapons package, and ToT. Leaving these aside and other critical aspects both want to sign the agreement.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 31 May 2016 16:25

Byzantine bargaining par excellence. as the years have run by,the deal looks less exciting than before as the financial implications weigh upon the pocket and purse. The news that the IN's super-carrier ambitions are going to be curtailed due to the huge cost,can be used in this deal as well. MKI desi production is now said to be "70%" or raw material sourced from India. The LCA some time ago was said to be 35%+? desi?

The "ball" may be in India's "court",nice turn of phrase as the French Open is on at Roland Garros.but do we have the inclination to continue playing the game at such expensive ticket prices?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby member_27581 » 31 May 2016 16:31

With each passing day my suspicion is growing that MP is trying to fish. If we get it great, else he has a plan and it could be F, G, FG, L, and S or a combination. It seems he will leave an legacy on IAF enduring for next 30 years.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gyan » 01 Jun 2016 07:29

I think that MP is neither getting a good deal from French nor Russians and HAL is willfully incompetent on LCA front. Hence he is stringing things along till a cost effective solution emerges.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 01 Jun 2016 07:41

Gyan wrote:I think that MP is neither getting a good deal from French nor Russians and HAL is willfully incompetent on LCA front. Hence he is stringing things along till a cost effective solution emerges.


Given the quantum of corruption and nepotism that has established itself across all branches of government - it is difficult to dispute the idea that there may be "forces" within HAL that will stand to gain by screwdrivergiri as opposed to local manufacture. I am not saying that Gyan's insinuation is true - but we need to ask if HALs inefficiencies (or OFB inefficiencies) result from officials from those companies being paid off by import lobby middlemen cause things to turn away from local manufacture towards import. This kind of action can be brought about in various ways
    1. Incite labour unrest and claim that awarding contracts to private agencies are making HAL/OFB workers redundant
    2. Employ retired armed forces officers to promote some imported goods and point out HALs inefficiencies and the technolgical leap of import
    3. Sing the praises of "deep transfer of technology" imagining that we are going to get something by doing screwdrivergri for 20 years. In 20 years my kids will be in US and my commercial complex will be built on MG road and my 15,000 sq foot home in Dollar colony will be complete

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby arthuro » 01 Jun 2016 12:27

French and Indian Midef to meet at Singapore this week-end (june 3rd) to discuss last aspects of the contract.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 508596.cms

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 01 Jun 2016 14:13

Srai, Fanne and KaranM - I am fully with you while suggesting that foreign imports should be minimal (zero possibly) primarily for 3 reasons a) India self-reliant for production, upgrades b) Helps in maturing Indian aviation military complex c) More jobs in Swadesh, cheaper aircraft, our money gets spent in Swadesh.

However, when I was suggesting the possibility of HAL-Saab JV setup, I wasn't hinting to replace Tejas Mk1/Mk1A orders with Gripen orders or to stop learning the know-how of making fighters. IAF wanted 14 MIG squadrons to be replaced yesterday and thankfully HAL (better late than never) has come up with Tejas Mk1 (&Mk1A shortly). Accordingly an order of 7-8 squadrons (40Mk1?+120Mk1A?) has been promised by IAF and a very optimistic view is that these 7-8 squadrons will be delivered by 2026 (16/year for 10 years from 2017 to end 2026). Hence, there is still shortage of 6-7 squadrons for MIG replacements & these replacements are needed now (or in very near future) & am contesting that why we should not aim for replacing these 6-7 squadrons with Gripen. Since Mk-2 was desired by IAF over Mk-1, I assume here that all the ~280-300 MIG replacements cannot be by Mk1A because a more powerful single engine fighter is required. (side note that these wont be replaced by Su30MKI, Mig-29 or old Mirage-2000's available elsewhere possibly)

I am not fully aware of how different or superior the Tejas-Mk2 and latest Gripen (Gripen-E) are in terms of features, but the fact of the matter is that Gripen-NG/E flies today and Tejas-Mk2 doesn't (not even a prototype). I doubt if the final design aspects of the Tejas-Mk2 are frozen. There is no real Mk2 news anymore from HAL/ADA, infact GE-F414-IN is not to be ready to be delivered to India before end of this year. Most of the focus is on Tejas Mk1A. This explains why Raksha Mantri ji Parrikar thinks of a second-production line either to complement 36-Rafales or to complement the shortage of MIG replacements or BOTH.

A short summary (based on a link, which comes in the next post), Gripen has similar thrust (98KN), gets engine from Khan America as Tejas Mk2 is planned; Gripen has similar hard points (or more 10? than 8 of Mk2), AESA radar, similar avionics and flying characteristics. Gripen having IRST, Mk2 is not planned (can be developed in due course though). Brazil finalized 36 Gripen-NG fighters for 4.7 Billion Usd, i.e. 130 MMUsd per fighter - indeed about double expensive than Mk2 might ~ 50-60 MMUsd (Mk1 costs 30 MMUsd?). Saab has promised Brazil to deliver 36 Gripens between 2019-2024.

So, basically, in a HAL-Saab JV-Setup, with indigenous production (MII) in India, somewhat expensive (say, 80 MMUsd), India can very well replace the capacity loss being faced without developing a similar aircraft, Mk2. Contractually, development wise, India is likely to have an upper-hand while having freedom of putting our own AESA radar (Uttam) OR upgrading for MLU's/own weapons. It is likely more possible that by the time 7-8 squadrons of Mk1/Mk1A by 2026 are delivered by HAL (16/year), the HAL-Saab JV setup would have already delivered 6-7 squadrons of Gripen to IAF. This enables, IAF to have the adequate replacements (10 years late already) and a good insurance policy should Mk2 is delayed further. This also helps, HAL-ADA-IAF to simply focus on the AMCA beast, complemented by Saab. Since, India will remain as super force driving AMCA development, Saab will only remain as light partner. (India is to Russia while Saab is to India, PAKFA analogy). (For Navy, something else can be planned).

So, other than spending little more money, but getting delivery on time, why such a JV set-up is so horribly wrong? (7 squadrons, 7 X 18 = 126, 126 X 80 = 10 Billion Usd)
PS - While disagreeing to anti-Gripen, kindly do suggest solutions such as ramping Tejas Mk1A to 32/year & asking IAF to accept rather light single engine fighter such as Mk1A.

srai wrote:Bhaskar_T,

All of the major components (wings, front/mid/rear fuselage, tail etc) of LCA manufacturing/assembly are in the process of being outsourced to Tier-1 companies like L&T, TATA etc. They in-turn are going to rely on hundreds/thousands of Tier-2/3 companies for parts and materials. HAL is moving more towards just being the final assembly. The move towards building a viable Indian aerospace ecosystem (public/private partnerships) is well underway through the LCA. Let this ecosystem mature further. Why is there a need to pay Gripen guys xx-sums of FOREX to setup "second" line under some artificial/legacy ToT? All they will do is hinder indigenous progress because slower the progress for India more business for them longer. As the saying goes, beware of sweet talkers.


fanne wrote:But what guarantee that SAAB ToT will not be screwdriver giri. Maybe the screwdriver may come automated this time, but what is new? yes time is of the essence here, but LCA is roughly 60% indigenous. Let's strive to make the rest 40% (or a high %) as well (parallel programmes), along with the engine (Kaveri resurrected to deliver 404/414 type capability, let it take time), any delay (not desirable, but if happens) means that production aircraft will have more and more indigenous component.
Also with everything indigenous, the growth is easy, every component maker should have a mandate that in x years, it will have the next generation of that equipment. With ready orders, these companies will also invest in r&d.


Karan M wrote:Bhaskar, if Su-30 MKI (wherein we make some 70% components in India) is "screwdrivergiri" and even after BAe, Sukhoi all transferred their production engineering in many respects to India, HAL per your own remarks is still struggling with making LCA in #.

So why will Saab decide to create a competitor in India & why will HAL, which hitherto has been happy with "screwdrivergiri" of whatever level change?

My point is look within, instead of constantly looking without. Issue is zimbly, it was not in the benefit of those who benefit from imports for HAL to change. Take that away and then lets see.


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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 01 Jun 2016 14:21

Am not sure if IDRW is banned here but the article says that it cannot be republished without the consent of writer, hence am only giving a link here. Call it sales pitch of Gripen-E or Anti-Tejas article etc.

http://idrw.org/india-can-build-next-ge ... -gripen-e/

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ldev » 01 Jun 2016 16:23

shiv wrote:
Gyan wrote:Given the quantum of corruption and nepotism that has established itself across all branches of government - it is difficult to dispute the idea that there may be "forces" within HAL that will stand to gain by screwdrivergiri as opposed to local manufacture. I am not saying that Gyan's insinuation is true - but we need to ask if HALs inefficiencies (or OFB inefficiencies) result from officials from those companies being paid off by import lobby middlemen cause things to turn away from local manufacture towards import.


Not at all beyond the capabilities of the import lobby. 50 years ago in India, the primary consideration in a Government purchase contract was the benefit to GOI/purchasing entity with personal bribes to be taken if possible/feasible. Today the primary consideration is personal bribes and a contract is entered into only if personal bribes can be taken.

I am of the opinion now that the legal principle of "Innocent until proven guilty" in legal cases has to be upended to "Guilty until proven innocent" for all defence purchases in India. And I am not saying this lightly. Because defence imports have been made in the past which on the surface and for all intents and purposes are clean and above board, but in reality are not. Those are the hidden scams which have not seen daylight and may never see daylight. But if one is aware of them, then the question comes to my mind is, " Is there any imported defence purchase made in India in the last 30 years free from corruption?"

MP may be personally clean, but if he surrounded by a cabal of corrupt bureaucrats & ex-servicemen who are import agents, he is fighting an uphill battle.

By the way, dont think for a minute that banishing imports will make this corruption somehow magically disappear. Bribes given/taken for local purchases by PSU purchase departments are even more widespread. Just go and observe.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 01 Jun 2016 17:18

Why not build an AMCA-lite, twin engined, minus the uber stealth amrit that the AMCA aims for?
It'll be a 4+ gen fighter just like the cheeni stealth fighters are 4+ gen onlee.
Once tech matures in 2 decades, start churning 5th gen AMCA MK1As

Solves the immediate problem of what MP was talking about was lacking in the LCA! DPSA, range, payload ityadi.
AMCA-lite with AESA, some internal bay weapons & on hardpoints outside should be == any current 4+ gen plane out there right?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 01 Jun 2016 19:02

ldev wrote:MP may be personally clean, but if he surrounded by a cabal of corrupt bureaucrats & ex-servicemen who are import agents, he is fighting an uphill battle.

In an interview on TV a few months ago we discussed (on here) only his references to the Tejas . What went unremarked was his reference to files that go around in circles in the government and do not move forward. The bureaucratic rules that demand multiple clearances allow multiple departments to delay anything. A man like the Def min will have so many files to pass that unless he follows up specific projects of interest - he will rapidly fall behind as the paperwork gets caught in a labyrinth of babudom. While we do have good and honest IAS people we also have some deeply corrupt guys who have done time in the Def Min and know exactly how files are supposed to move or not move.

Once again I repeat that if we claim that Antony was corrupt - the picture we get is of clean babudom and corrupt minister. But it is more likely that he was clean (as Parikkar said) but ineffective because the system of defence procurement has access to lakhs of crores and there are multiple people in government making money.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby DexterM » 01 Jun 2016 20:53

Gagan wrote:Why not build an AMCA-lite, twin engined, minus the uber stealth amrit that the AMCA aims for?
It'll be a 4+ gen fighter just like the cheeni stealth fighters are 4+ gen onlee.
Once tech matures in 2 decades, start churning 5th gen AMCA MK1As

Solves the immediate problem of what MP was talking about was lacking in the LCA! DPSA, range, payload ityadi.
AMCA-lite with AESA, some internal bay weapons & on hardpoints outside should be == any current 4+ gen plane out there right?

Brilliant idea. Why even call it AMCA. Just a twin engined LCA. We already have the heavier landing gear done by default, and have to worry only mostly about the CLAWS. The biggest issue among many would be about scale and remodeling the wings for the size targeted. It is definitely easier, but we are further down the AMCA design path and would likely be able to push through if there were enough political backing. If they focused on the first iteration based on tech that is currently available, perhaps we might see a flying model by 2020. Else, it is 2023 for the TD and another decade for a usable bird.


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