IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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SaiK
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 24 Aug 2016 06:33

^those are for international markets and moving the mftrg base to desh. paki f-16s will be serviced from desh in the future.

my best guess. it would be never allowed to destroy LCA and AMCA market

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bheeshma » 24 Aug 2016 06:59

There will be no MMRCA except LCA Mk2. High time it was prioritized along with Kaveri.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 24 Aug 2016 07:28

shashankk wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Why to Uncle Sam ?


Two other fighters under contention for make in India are F sola and F athara and both are Unkil Sams plane. This leak would definitely play huge role in Indian decision.


I doubt it. The french stepped on some toes to bag this deal. They just got their teeth kicked in as pay back.

Rafale is in a diff category.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shashankk » 25 Aug 2016 03:47

RoyG wrote:
shashankk wrote:
Two other fighters under contention for make in India are F sola and F athara and both are Unkil Sams plane. This leak would definitely play huge role in Indian decision.


I doubt it. The french stepped on some toes to bag this deal. They just got their teeth kicked in as pay back.

Rafale is in a diff category.


I am not saying that this kind of leaks wont happen with american or Russian weapons but when something like this comes out in public domain it would be tough for GOI to defend buying Rafale .

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 25 Aug 2016 04:36

Why? Russian sales have gone through their fair share of public scrutiny. Strategic partnerships tend to survive this sort of thing.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ranjan.rao » 25 Aug 2016 04:46

^^with most of russian wares wasn't it the delay, availability or price escalation issue rather than being significantly compromised

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shashankk » 25 Aug 2016 05:34

RoyG wrote:Why? Russian sales have gone through their fair share of public scrutiny. Strategic partnerships tend to survive this sort of thing.

I presume you are referring to a strategic partnership between India and France. Maybe I am very short sighted but I only see strategic partnership with Russia, USA and Israel when it comes to defence. Rafale was already very very costly and now chances of this becoming impotent due to some espionage or leaks will have huge role to play. Government would be in tough spot because mainstream media has picked on this story and may build up momentum on that.
Unlike previous government this government is expected to keep national interest first and they cannot be seen as buying a super costly planes from a source that have chances of being compromised.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 26 Aug 2016 02:08

shashankk wrote:...
Unlike previous government this government is expected to keep national interest first and they cannot be seen as buying a super costly planes from a source that have chances of being compromised.


http://www-lmj.cea.fr/en/simulation-program/index.htm

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ranjan.rao » 26 Aug 2016 03:18

^^^ Please elaborate for lesser mortals

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 26 Aug 2016 04:22

ranjan.rao wrote:^^^ Please elaborate for lesser mortals


Some things should be kept out of the public domain. Please don't ask.

shashankk wrote:Unlike previous government this government is expected to keep national interest first and they cannot be seen as buying a super costly planes from a source that have chances of being compromised.


They are two diff products from two diff companies. Please tell us how one affects the other. Parrikar right now is trying to get the best deal possible.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 26 Aug 2016 04:33

ranjan.rao wrote:^^^ Please elaborate for lesser mortals

@Lesser mortal Strategic quid pro quo for testing without CTBT. Think.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2016 04:57

Frogs are sharing simulation data?
There has been speculation for a while now even here on brf...

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Prem » 26 Aug 2016 06:05

Gagan wrote:Frogs are sharing simulation data?
There has been speculation for a while now even here on brf...

They won't do it without nod rom Massa.Whisper was that Data was given to them by USA to run simulations as even after few BIg Bumm Test in haste,they needed Uncle's help in producing right software codes before accepting CTBT.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 26 Aug 2016 06:25

Well they did that hydrodynamic testing thingie with the lizzards, shared data and all.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Aug 2016 14:52

shashankk wrote:I presume you are referring to a strategic partnership between India and France. Maybe I am very short sighted but I only see strategic partnership with Russia, USA and Israel when it comes to defence.


I see all US supporters on forum continously talking about strategic partnership, but please tell me what change what legal law passed ever since clinton put sanctions on Pokharan Shakti Tests? What strategic platform or tech US is ready to share? Even GE engine tech has been denied already, while sukhoi engines are mfrd here. And inspite of denial of GE 414 technology the govt. is still going to buy it.

How does this govt. explain to nation signing lemoa/lsa while US gives nothing in return?

US put sanctions, even russia criticized the Shati Tests, but the great Statesman President Shri Jacques Chirac openly supported and expressed the understanding of France the compulsions of Bharat.

It matters in the world to be seen that Bharat remembers who supported and who opposed.

I don't think with two bases for 2 squadrons and 50% investment in Bharat rafale is expensive.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Aug 2016 14:56

Here is a fb Tejas India's MRCA accounts explanation of the deal :

https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/

Courtesy Tejas India's mrca :

Okay, so let's clear some misconceptions regarding the Rafale deal

1. Offsets: Total 50% of the deal and ("surprise") ToT

Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.

Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,

2. Advanced weaponry

IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.

3. More payload

An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. The current capacity is 9.5 tons so this could mean improved M-88 engines.

4. Faster delivery

The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. This is only possible if the jets currently under assembly and marked for Armee De L'air are re-routed for India.

5. Deployment

Out of the 36 aircraft,18 will be deployed at Ambala air base bordering Pakistan and another 18 will be deployed at an air base in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, bordering China.

6. More Rafales?

There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft under MMRCA

There are many who think that the $8.8 Billion is far too expensive for 36 Rafale jets. Let's take a look shall we?

~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion

~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $25 million (average) = 36 x 25 = $900 Million

~ Setting up of two bases and maintenance depots costs $1.2 Billion

~ The deal said that it would cover 10 years of maintenance and spares. The total LCC is calculated for 40 years and it comes to around 2.5 times the price of airframes (average).
Hence, for 10 years = 2.5 x 3.06 / 4 = $1.92 Billion ($53.4 Million per Rafale)

~ So far, the total adds upto $7.08 Billion.
The remaining 8.8 - 7.08 = $1.72 Billion is for ToT and covers the 50% offsets (that means, 8.8 / 2 = $4.4 Billion will be re-invested back in India)

Quoting $245 Million/ Rafale is just plain stupid. What people don't understand is that if India goes for remaining 90 Rafales for MMRCA, we'll have to pay only for the airframes, weapon and maintenance, since the two bases being set-up can handle three squadrons each without major expenditure.

That is 90 * ( 85 + 25 + 53.4 ) = $14.7 Billion excluding another $500 Million for upgradation of the bases. (again with 50% offsets)

So the total cost for 126 Rafales will be $24 Billion (pretty close to the $20 Billion quoted in the original MMRCA deal adjusting for inflation and ToT)

(Note - The figures are estimates and only provided to give you an idea as to the real cost break-up structure. The cost for 90 remaining jets will increase due to the 'Make in India' initiative for setting up assembly line. But the re-investment will compensate most of the additional cost)

#Warwolf

**Kindly share this post so that more people can be cleared of their misconception as to why this is a good deal, instead of believing what the 'paid media' has been doing till now to promote other jets**
— with Arun Ben Varghese.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Aug 2016 15:10

RoyG wrote:
shashankk wrote:Unlike previous government this government is expected to keep national interest first and they cannot be seen as buying a super costly planes from a source that have chances of being compromised.


They are two diff products from two diff companies. Please tell us how one affects the other. Parrikar right now is trying to get the best deal possible.


Exactly! Its like saying since few months back GE refused to Tot on GE 414 engine we should boycott all american companies northrop, lm, boeing & pratt and whitney due to one company's refusal !

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 28 Aug 2016 05:46

Prem wrote:..
They won't do it without nod from Massa.Whisper was that Data was given to them by USA to run simulations as even after few BIg Bumm Test in haste,they needed Uncle's help in producing right software codes before accepting CTBT.


:) So what does it take in the present circumstances to get that 'nod'? The rear view mirror is not a good instrument to answer this. Perhaps Singha might say "tectonic/titanic" forces are at work and that we are on the cusp of a something very different.

A question not an answer.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Hitesh » 28 Aug 2016 10:07

I am only against this deal because we would be getting 36 and we have no price guarantee for the 90 more planes. If the deal comes with a iron clad price guarantee that India wanted and expected to get, then I am for this deal. But with all the latest shenanigans that the french pulled off, I do not trust them one iota.

We need to concentrate on our own indigenous products and nurture them. Just crank up the LCA production facility. Learn how to make more of them and in ways that they are interchangeable like parts being uniform so that they can be used across the entire fleet. Full speed with AMCA program. Pull out of the FGFA program. It is going nowhere.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Aug 2016 11:30

^ Flawed thinking !
1.) On 12th May '14 when results were clear, antony panicked and called 8 officers got the rafale file wrote a note and then made those officers sign. Parrikar said in parliament the officers told him antony was scared agitated.

2.) NaMo takes over finds out the corruption termite queen and her antony had made in the deal while IAF tells NaMo - Parrikar in no uncertain terms that if deal isn't signed then difficult to protect the nation against 2 fronts. So NaMo asks what if deal is signed tomorow, he is told that then 18 flyaway will come in 36 months that is 2017, and in case manufacturing setup goes ok another 18 by 2021 - 22

Hmmm so NaMo tells parrikar "I get them 36 Rafales readymade by 2020, without any hiccups.... and later we'll have more options LCA Mk1 + Mk 2 by 2023 - 24 and we buy another 90 if needed.... "

Now for 90 Rafale has to start competing against teens and grippen again the Amdaavadi PM is going to use every trick for bargain.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ashbhee » 29 Aug 2016 07:19

If there is 50 % offset in initial 36, they will be building facilities in India. Their cost of producing for India in India will come down. Even if there is competition for next 90, they are likely to underbid grippen or whoever else will bid for it.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 29 Aug 2016 08:18

At $85 mil a piece the Rafale is not too expensive onlee...
French weapon systems that'll go on the Rafale will be much much more expensive than amreekan ones.
Upgrades will be more expensive

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Ashok Sarraff » 01 Sep 2016 06:13

Some game is afoot:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 951881.cms

IT raid on Advantage India, an NGO that received Rs. 21 crore donation from France.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Sep 2016 22:02

Ashok Sarraff wrote:Some game is afoot:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 951881.cms

IT raid on Advantage India, an NGO that received Rs. 21 crore donation from France.


Always some game afoot—usually a wild goose chase. Planted stories, stings, the usual Indian dramabazi. Anything to avoid a decision

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 01 Sep 2016 22:08

ashbhee wrote:If there is 50 % offset in initial 36, they will be building facilities in India. Their cost of producing for India in India will come down. Even if there is competition for next 90, they are likely to underbid grippen or whoever else will bid for it.


You may remember that HAL built Su-30s are more expensive than those built in Russia (Google). The MMRCA L1 stage had Dassault insisting that India built Rafales by HAL would be 27% (??) more.

It's one thing when LM talks of moving a fully depreciated line from TX to India and another when you set up a second new and undepreciated line. There may be some clues in why LM talks of a 100 plane order for the move to be economical and why Boeing which would have to set up a second F-18 line, talks of 150 a/c.

Any Rafale line in India would be new.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby dhiraj » 01 Sep 2016 22:52

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr

Rafale deal closer to a decision, sent to PMO for final review

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby kit » 02 Sep 2016 00:50

From the article ..The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display. " .. which version of the Israeli helmet are they talking about ??

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 05 Sep 2016 01:15

kit wrote:From the article ..The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display. " .. which version of the Israeli helmet are they talking about ??


Dash III is the latest

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby kit » 05 Sep 2016 11:45

thanks :)

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 05 Sep 2016 13:05

US is facing severe problems with F-18 aircraft/spares inventory with several incidents in recent times due to ceasing production.
How India will benefit from the dumping of either the F-16 or F-18 lines is a moot point.Both aircraft have reached their ""end times" and there is simply no point in going in for either.Instead if the Raffy the price is dropped,likely now after the Scorpene fiasco,buying extra Raffys, far more capable aircraft would be better. It would also mean a smaller number of birds in the inventory,a definite plus point. The IAF should standardize on the SU-30 derivatives,LCAs and Rafales if the French see the light of day and come down in price.To counter the Chinese stealth fighter being covertly tested right now in Tibet,and definite future with basing there,the FGFA deal with Rusia should be fast rtacked.Two sqds of Ru std. FGFAs which can be replaced later as was done with the first SU-30s should be acquired post haste. These 4 types of aircraft should be the backbone of the IAF for the future. If for any reason the Raffy deal fails,then Flanker derivatives,LCAs and possibly the Gripen should take up the slack.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Khalsa » 06 Sep 2016 01:42

Another Month (August 2016) has passed
The Rafael continues to be just a distant Mirage

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Suresh S » 06 Sep 2016 02:13

Khalsa wrote:Another Month (August 2016) has passed
The Rafael continues to be just a distant Mirage

I like the pun khalsa

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Suresh S » 06 Sep 2016 02:14

french will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Great plane but at what price.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Khalsa » 06 Sep 2016 05:41

snahata wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Another Month (August 2016) has passed
The Rafael continues to be just a distant Mirage

I like the pun khalsa

Thank you sir

i started doing that few months back...scary bit is ... i have started to do that regularly now.. and that scares me....
ever seen the movie dark zero thirty something ... killing of Osama

the girl writes with Sharpie or something on the glass window pane of her boss
67 days since we discovered Osama in Pak, 98 days since we discovered Osama....

this is starting to become one of those now

god I wish this wraps up

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 08 Sep 2016 09:41

Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 158710.cms

The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side

Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations,

, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kashi » 08 Sep 2016 10:11

SaiK wrote:The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.


7.25 billion Euros (~$8.2 billion) for 36 jets (~$228 million per jet). For these sort of prices they better include all weapon systems, spares and life-cycle costs.

And what "cutting edge technology" is "Paris offering"?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby kit » 08 Sep 2016 16:17

SaiK wrote:Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 158710.cms

The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side

Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations,

, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal.




what are the critical technologies involved ??

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kakarat » 08 Sep 2016 17:25

@livefist
Confirmed: Indian negotiations for 36 #Rafale fighters complete. Deal up for approval by @PMOIndia & then Cabinet.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2016 20:46

Cutting edge tech? Naturellement mes ami! Ze very best chef's Sabatier knives from France pour ze IAF!

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 08 Sep 2016 20:50

Philip wrote:Cutting edge tech? Naturellement mes ami! Ze very best chef's Sabatier knives from France pour ze IAF!


Just like Tin-Can. :lol:


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