IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 08 Sep 2016 22:06

They have sharp edges too. The cutting-edge makes no sense at all

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 11 Sep 2016 18:44

Rafale all set to fly: High level delegation to straighten last minutes differences
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 618189.ece

NEW DELHI: A high level delegation comprised of all three French defence firms, involved in the 36 Rafale fighter jet deal with Indian Air Force, have been camping in Capital to straighten the last minutes differences, if any, according to a top source in the government. After the Defence ministry approving the recommendations of the committee negotiating the deal for the last 16 months the file has now reached the Prime Minister’s Office for final vetting.

According to sources, privy to the development, representatives of Dassault aviation, MBDA and Thales are in talks with the government officials to give a much needed push for the deal. According to the contract, Dassault aviations, manufacturers the aircraft, MBDA provides weapons system package and Thales is giving avionics to the fighter jet.

“Representatives all three involved defence firms are in talks to take swift decision on any last minute doubt. Certainly, the deal is making a headway and should be done in a week’s time,”said a defence source.

It is believed that the PMO is making a strong push to conclude the deal, as it is already delayed. And the final report submitted by a team of negotiating the Rafale deal was approved by the highest acquisition body headed by the Defence minister Manohar Parrikar in its last meeting in August.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new age beyond visual range missile Meteor and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. It is not clear if the price has been brought down further but India was seeking more.

The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Vivek K » 11 Sep 2016 21:06

What a waste! Only in India!!

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Hitesh » 12 Sep 2016 06:32

French being French, let's pray for their foot fetish proclivities namely by putting their feet in their mouth and offending the Indian delegation to the point where they leave in a huff.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby nash » 12 Sep 2016 08:46

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... wUzSO.html

Cabinet committee set to okay deal for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft

Sixteen months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) is set to approve on Monday the closure of negotiations between the defence ministry and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation
.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby dhiraj » 12 Sep 2016 22:09

ANI ‏@ANI_news 19m19 minutes ago
Its in final stage. Antim ismein 'thapa' jo stage hoti hai usmein hai: Defence Min. Manohar Parrikar on Rafale deal

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Paarth » 12 Sep 2016 22:42

bet it will take 5-6 months more :P

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 12 Sep 2016 22:54

No, this one is going through. One of the problem's with the otherwise great Modi govt. is that Modiji's decision is final. Nothing else matters. You will hear Parrikar praising how Modiji salvaged the whole stalemate, but there should be a difference between fast decision making and snap decision making. This is a case of the latter. He had to show something for a French trip and this is it. If MMRCA was going nowhere, it could have been simply scrapped. We had no obligation to engage the French.

I cannot understand how buying 36 completely imported aircraft of the most expensive kind solves any of our problems:
1. Limited budget
2. Shortage of planes
3. Menagerie of planes
4. Absence of manufacturing know-how

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 12 Sep 2016 22:55

w/e it's done. he made a decision and is going to stick to it.

it won't stop at 36.

mmrca almost finally over.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 12 Sep 2016 23:16

RoyG wrote:w/e it's done. he made a decision and is going to stick to it.

That's a justification?

RoyG wrote:it won't stop at 36.

I know, and it is even more unjustifiable.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 12 Sep 2016 23:47

Sad. How easily we loosen up our purse's strings for imports. While we never have proper money for Desi programs. All the logic of numbers, commonality, scalability all applies only for desi products. I am highly disappointed with this decision.

Only hope I have remaining is that MP might bring in some good stuff under offsets unlike some fakes/junk we always get from other deals.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 12 Sep 2016 23:59

indranilroy wrote:
RoyG wrote:w/e it's done. he made a decision and is going to stick to it.

That's a justification?

RoyG wrote:it won't stop at 36.

I know, and it is even more unjustifiable.


Easy there hammer.

We'll have to wait and see what we get out of it before jumping to conclusions.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 13 Sep 2016 00:04

JayS wrote:Sad. How easily we loosen up our purse's strings for imports. While we never have proper money for Desi programs. All the logic of numbers, commonality, scalability all applies only for desi products. I am highly disappointed with this decision.

Only hope I have remaining is that MP might bring in some good stuff under offsets unlike some fakes/junk we always get from other deals.


Agree. I would've scrapped this thing a long time ago. But hey, its almost here so all we can do now is wait to see what we got out of this and move on.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 13 Sep 2016 00:30

RoyG wrote:Easy there hammer

:D

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Sep 2016 00:37

I repost again the break up cost from Tejas MRCA Facbook page

https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7029&start=3440#p2039359

https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/

Courtesy Tejas India's mrca :

Okay, so let's clear some misconceptions regarding the Rafale deal

1. Offsets: Total 50% of the deal and ("surprise") ToT

Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.

Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,

2. Advanced weaponry

IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.

3. More payload

An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. The current capacity is 9.5 tons so this could mean improved M-88 engines.

4. Faster delivery

The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. This is only possible if the jets currently under assembly and marked for Armee De L'air are re-routed for India.

5. Deployment

Out of the 36 aircraft,18 will be deployed at Ambala air base bordering Pakistan and another 18 will be deployed at an air base in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, bordering China.

6. More Rafales?

There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft under MMRCA

There are many who think that the $8.8 Billion is far too expensive for 36 Rafale jets. Let's take a look shall we?

~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion

~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $25 million (average) = 36 x 25 = $900 Million

~ Setting up of two bases and maintenance depots costs $1.2 Billion

~ The deal said that it would cover 10 years of maintenance and spares. The total LCC is calculated for 40 years and it comes to around 2.5 times the price of airframes (average).
Hence, for 10 years = 2.5 x 3.06 / 4 = $1.92 Billion ($53.4 Million per Rafale)

~ So far, the total adds upto $7.08 Billion.
The remaining 8.8 - 7.08 = $1.72 Billion is for ToT and covers the 50% offsets (that means, 8.8 / 2 = $4.4 Billion will be re-invested back in India)

Quoting $245 Million/ Rafale is just plain stupid. What people don't understand is that if India goes for remaining 90 Rafales for MMRCA, we'll have to pay only for the airframes, weapon and maintenance, since the two bases being set-up can handle three squadrons each without major expenditure.

That is 90 * ( 85 + 25 + 53.4 ) = $14.7 Billion excluding another $500 Million for upgradation of the bases. (again with 50% offsets)

So the total cost for 126 Rafales will be $24 Billion (pretty close to the $20 Billion quoted in the original MMRCA deal adjusting for inflation and ToT)

(Note - The figures are estimates and only provided to give you an idea as to the real cost break-up structure. The cost for 90 remaining jets will increase due to the 'Make in India' initiative for setting up assembly line. But the re-investment will compensate most of the additional cost)

#Warwolf

**Kindly share this post so that more people can be cleared of their misconception as to why this is a good deal, instead of believing what the 'paid media' has been doing till now to promote other jets**
— with Arun Ben Varghese.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 13 Sep 2016 00:44

^^^ That is the take of the admin of that unofficial FB page. There is nothing official about it. How much for ToT, how much for maintenance, and what is the weapons package. It is a gross trivilisation of the problem to say: that a Rafale does not cost 8B/36. The question is if you had 8B $, how would you best use it. Buy Rafales? I can't bring myself to agree. I tried.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 13 Sep 2016 01:03

indranilroy wrote:^^^ That is the take of the admin of that unofficial FB page. There is nothing official about it. How much for ToT, how much for maintenance, and what is the weapons package. It is a gross trivilisation of the problem to say: that a Rafale does not cost 8B/36. The question is if you had 8B $, how would you best use it. Buy Rafales? I can't bring myself to agree. I tried.


The most ideal situation would have been to invest the money in lca, roping in more private players for production, engine/missiles/sensors r&d. We could have easily churned out the numbers. More su30s could have plugged the gaps.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Sep 2016 01:04

Details of Rafale contract finalised: Government sources

NEW DELHI: Details of the multi-billion euro contract for 36 Rafale fighter aircraft have been finalised and the government is now working on the inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France.

Government sources said the cost, offsets and service details have been finalised and now the effort is to firm up IGA as envisaged in a pact signed on January this year when French President Francois Hollande was in New Delhi.

"The work on the inter-governmental agreement with France has started and would be finalised soon," one of the sources told PTI.

The sources said the text and language of the agreement is being fine-tuned and the deal is in the final stage.

"The deal is in final stage," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters here when asked if it has been cleared by the government.

Last month, a report submitted by the team negotiating the much-anticipated Rafale deal with France was cleared by the Defence Ministry. The file was then sent to the Prime Minister's Office for review and clearance.

The sources said the PMO had sought from the Defence Ministry some clarifications on the life cycle costs and unit price of the aircraft which were replied to.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly-away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new-age, beyond visual range missile, Meteor, and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The delivery for the fighter aircraft is expected to begin in 2019, with an annual inflation capped at 3.5 per cent.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Sep 2016 05:29

indranilroy wrote:Buy Rafales? I can't bring myself to agree. I tried.


Even a bigger disaster is happening :

http://www.freepressjournal.in/india/in-sweden-parrikar-to-negotiate-gripen-deal/924008
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar may look for buying Gripen fighter aircraft during his trip to Sweden later this month in what could be the first major defence deal with the country since after a 1987 Bofors gun purchase bombed with the kickback charges that brought down Rajiv Gandhi government.

Gripen deal looks attracting since its makers, Swedish firm Saab, have proposed to set up capabilities in India to make the aircraft in India and further extend technological cooperation in developing a Mark II version of the Tejas light combat aircraft.

Only in June, Indian Air Force chief Marshal Arup Raha was in Sweden on a 5-day tour when he flew in a version of the single-engine Gripen fighter during his visit. The Gripen prospects also brighten since Parrikar had said in the past that the government would take a decision on a new line of fighter aircraft by the end of the current fiscal.

Sweden and Saab are pitching the Gripen E for the Indian Air Force requirement of fighter aircraft since after no aircraft passed the trials conducted for buying 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. They included Saab’s Gripen C/D and versions of the F-16 Fighting Falcon of the US Lockheed Martin and the F/A-E/F Super Hornet of US Boeing. Unlike the Gripen C/D variant that was fielded in the trials in India, the Gripen E has a wider undercarriage that fold into its double-delta wings (and not its fuselage).

The defence ministry sources said with a wider and deeper understanding with the US in recent weeks – as exemplified by the Lemoa – the possibility of acquiring weapons platforms with US-origin equipment has brightened. The Gripen E is powered by US-origin GE-414 engines.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 13 Sep 2016 05:36

^^^

So: SU-30MKIs, MiG29s, Jaguars, LCAs, M2Ks, Rafales, F-16s, Gripens, Mig-27s, PAK/FAs, AMCAs...

We're building a Smithsonian not an air force. Is there anyone whose product we've overlooked?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Sep 2016 06:02

Maybe its just a pressure tactic on french that look we'll buy from others the next lot of 90. Or if you look step by step :

1.) Mahrashtra Chief Minister Fadnavis' photo appears sitting in grippen, he talks about setting up facilities in mahrashtra creating grippen jet (Nationalist BJP CM doesn't have a single pic in Tejas, nor any talk of setting up facilities for Tejas)

2.) Air Chief Raha first flies in Tejas, but then goes to Sweden and there is a talk about grippen although no photo-shoto of Air Chief Raha in grippen, but news reports mention grippen without quoting Air Chief as far as I remember.

3.) Now Parrikar goes to sweden and news report mentions grippen. So quickly after Air Chief's visit.

So its a koan whether they really want to buy or just setting up a scene for french to behave?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 13 Sep 2016 07:56

Cosmo,hilarious! We can recoup the Raffy cost by opening an aerospace museum.Like the bankrupt ex-Soviets,also offer flying experience on everything we possess from our antique collection too.Will bring in much needed greenbacks.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Avarachan » 13 Sep 2016 09:24

As I've posted before, there is a certain strategic rationale behind a purchase of 36 Rafale's. There is none possible behind a purchase of the Gripen E/F. That would kill the Tejas Mark II.

I hope and pray this is all a bluff by RM Parrikar.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Avarachan » 13 Sep 2016 11:25

indranilroy wrote:No, this one is going through. One of the problem's with the otherwise great Modi govt. is that Modiji's decision is final. Nothing else matters. You will hear Parrikar praising how Modiji salvaged the whole stalemate, but there should be a difference between fast decision making and snap decision making. This is a case of the latter. He had to show something for a French trip and this is it. If MMRCA was going nowhere, it could have been simply scrapped. We had no obligation to engage the French.

I cannot understand how buying 36 completely imported aircraft of the most expensive kind solves any of our problems:
1. Limited budget
2. Shortage of planes
3. Menagerie of planes
4. Absence of manufacturing know-how


1) Over the years, India has learned a lot through competitive evaluations. The knowledge gained through the MMRCA contest will certainly improve the Tejas Mark II and the AMCA. This should not be taken lightly: the chance to do hands-on testing of planes from the world's leading manufacturers is extremely valuable. (With espionage, one always has to be concerned whether the data accessed is actually authentic.) By the way, one of the reasons the U.S. hated the non-aligned movement (NAM) was that it allowed NAM countries to learn from both sides.

2) The French have the capability to offer useful assistance for the Tejas Mark II (RAM, micro-electronics, the undercarriage on the N-LCA, etc.). Indians often lament that India spends a pittance on R&D. That's true. It's a national disgrace. However, one temporary (and obviously imperfect) fix is to access other countries' R&D through purchases and the corresponding negotiated assistance in desired areas. The Arihant, for instance, has clearly been influenced by the Yasen. It would be a good thing if the Tejas Mark II received some mentorship from the Rafale. If someone does not have guidance from a senior partner, the only way to learn is to take action, make mistakes, and learn. Obviously, that's the only way forward in many areas. No one is thrilled about helping a potential competitor. Nonetheless, the advice of a senior partner can save huge amounts of time and money. That's certainly been the case with the Arihant.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Paul » 13 Sep 2016 12:12

The Airforce has been very clear in saying it wants the Rafale.

We have to trust their judgement and give them what they want. They are in the most unenviable position of the three services for having to fight a two front war without enough assets. We should give them the tools needed to do the job.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Sep 2016 13:21

indranilroy wrote:^^^ That is the take of the admin of that unofficial FB page. There is nothing official about it. How much for ToT, how much for maintenance, and what is the weapons package. It is a gross trivilisation of the problem to say: that a Rafale does not cost 8B/36. The question is if you had 8B $, how would you best use it. Buy Rafales? I can't bring myself to agree. I tried.


What would be your choice dada?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Sep 2016 13:25

Avarachan wrote:As I've posted before, there is a certain strategic rationale behind a purchase of 36 Rafale's. There is none possible behind a purchase of the Gripen E/F. That would kill the Tejas Mark II.

I hope and pray this is all a bluff by RM Parrikar.


There will another 18 Rafales for sure.The contract has a option for that.

Beyond that what IAF will get is a mystery.It will be a fighter assembled in India and probably the number will be close to 150.God knows if it will be a F16(god forbid) or F/A 18(likely?) Gripen(Dark Horse) or EF(highly unlikely).We have to wait till March.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2016 14:20

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^

So: SU-30MKIs, MiG29s, Jaguars, LCAs, M2Ks, Rafales, F-16s, Gripens, Mig-27s, PAK/FAs, AMCAs...

We're building a Smithsonian not an air force. Is there anyone whose product we've overlooked?


MiG-27s will start retiring as soon as Rafales come in.. anyhow we just have 40 UPGs..
We have:
Retire - MiG-21, MiG-27
Current fleet: MiG-29, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Su-30 MKI
New ones: LCA, FGFA, Rafale, 4th type?

When AMCAs start coming in:
MiG-29, Jaguar, Mirage 2000's will retire - around 200 airframes.

So then we'll have:
Tejas, PAKFA, AMCA, Su-30 MKI, AMCA, Rafale, another MMRCA type

In short, we should buy more Rafales (even if trickle feed, say 18 airframes every 3 years), push for Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, get more FGFA with a bigger service & spares agreement upfront, and upgrade the Su30s, raise serviceable airframes. The 2nd MMRCA type is completely unnecessary.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 13 Sep 2016 15:39

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^

So: SU-30MKIs, MiG29s, Jaguars, LCAs, M2Ks, Rafales, F-16s, Gripens, Mig-27s, PAK/FAs, AMCAs...

We're building a Smithsonian not an air force. Is there anyone whose product we've overlooked?


Cheenis are not happy Saar.They want to sell us the Jf 17 Bandar.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby arvin » 13 Sep 2016 20:20

Karan M wrote:...............
So then we'll have:
Tejas, PAKFA, AMCA, Su-30 MKI, AMCA, Rafale, another MMRCA type

In short, we should buy more Rafales (even if trickle feed, say 18 airframes every 3 years), push for Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, get more FGFA with a bigger service & spares agreement upfront, and upgrade the Su30s, raise serviceable airframes. The 2nd MMRCA type is completely unnecessary.


I think swedes will be squeezed to part with some airframe manufacturing technology so that fav munna HAL can leap frog from current state. Assuming the 126 phoren requirement from IAF still stands and rafale fulfilling maybe 36 + 18 = 54, the rest 72 hoors must come from somewhere apart from HAL.The way I see it modi and parikar have the following road map

2014-2015 : Finalize LCA MK-1A and order 40 of those.
2015-2016 : Finalize Rafale and order (36 + 18) of those.(get engine and avionics tech in return)
2016-2017 : Finalize Gripen and order 72 from sweden. (get manufacturing and AESA tech in return).
2017-2018 : No 45 squadron in full strength with 20 LCA mk-1 by mid 2018.
2018-2019 : 2nd squadron with 20 LCA mk-1 in process of induction.

Use tech gains from above in LCA MK-1A, MK-2 and AMCA.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Avarachan » 13 Sep 2016 21:06

Sweden's not that much ahead of India. I don't think a Gripen purchase would be worth it. Besides, the Tejas Mark II will be a direct competitor to the Gripen E. Assisting the Tejas program would not be in Sweden's interest.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby chetak » 13 Sep 2016 21:09

Avarachan wrote:As I've posted before, there is a certain strategic rationale behind a purchase of 36 Rafale's. There is none possible behind a purchase of the Gripen E/F. That would kill the Tejas Mark II.

I hope and pray this is all a bluff by RM Parrikar.


The frenchies must have really been caught with their pants down big time on the scorpene leaks.

The frenchies would not have caved in so easily unless the Indians had them dead to rights and would have gone public about the damage.

All their future arms sales would have been jeopardized and so they simply decided to bite the bullet and take it in their pocket books

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby chetak » 13 Sep 2016 21:10

Ras Al Ghul wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:^^^

So: SU-30MKIs, MiG29s, Jaguars, LCAs, M2Ks, Rafales, F-16s, Gripens, Mig-27s, PAK/FAs, AMCAs...

We're building a Smithsonian not an air force. Is there anyone whose product we've overlooked?


Cheenis are not happy Saar.They want to sell us the Jf 17 Bandar.


I am sure you meant the pakis who are pushing international sales of the bandar :lol:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 13 Sep 2016 21:33

arvin wrote:2016-2017 : Finalize Gripen and order 72 from sweden. (get manufacturing and AESA tech in return).


I don't think they have GaN producing tech.

c.) There is GaN chips or whatever
b.) There is tech that produces GaN chips
a.) There is tech that produces (b.)

According to Bharat Karnad in Rafale ToT deal french were ready to give (b.) but not (a.)

Swedes don't even have (b.) I think they'll buy from foundaries of other european nations.

Swedes may have hypnotised fadnavis parrikar etc. although they've nothing engine, Gan, irst nope just a design competing our tejas.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 13 Sep 2016 23:47

Avarachan sir,

I have never doubted the IAF's claim that we need medium fighters. In this very forum, I have fought people who said LCAs can do the work of medium-weights or that the Su-30s are the panacea to all of India's fighter needs. But is Rafale/EF, the absolutely most expensive fighter aircrafts on the military market our solution to medium weight fighters. I don't think so. I completely agree with you that Gripen is nothing but LCA++, and should not be pursued at any cost. Parrikar has made many mistakes. I hope he does not commit that blunder.

Also, I can't see the strategic angle. Because, we buy the Rafale, would be get technological help for the LCA. History has proved elsewise. The French were with us at the beginning of LCA, they left. They were with us on the Scorpenes, but they have never helped us on our indigenous submarine efforts. They have been providing us helicopters, and helicopter engines for decades, and yet when the time came to help HAL with LUH's transmission or GTRE with Kaveri, they asked for such astronomical amounts for such small incremental work, that everybody backed down. even in the civil sector, you can look at the nuclear sector.

I also do not buy the transfer of technology with the current 36 Rafales. They are to be bought off the shelf with 30% scredrivergiri at home. It does not bring us any technology. RAM coatings etc. are coming from the Russian side, with the work on the Super Su-30s and the FGFA.

There are only two angles:
1. The government is not technically savvy. They listen to those who are. And those who are, can't see beyond the Rafales. It was a sad day for me when the IAF chief says that there is no plan B for the INDIAN air force, if it can't import the Rafales. And I say this without any nationalistic fervour. (I hate the word nationalistic and its acceptance in modern day Indian political parlance. India was never a land of nationalists, and it never should be. India was, is and should remain the land of the patriots).
2. This military buy should be viewed in the larger theatre of geo-politics, in which case everything I said is moot.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby maxratul » 14 Sep 2016 00:06

I am actually pretty excited that we are getting the rafale. It is a great plane, the absolute best 4+ gen fighter in terms of tech profile, and provides a guarantee of air superiority over the Chinese in the medium term until the FGFA/AMCA programs start manifesting.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 14 Sep 2016 00:12

indranilroy wrote:Avarachan sir,

I have never doubted the IAF's claim that we need medium fighters. In this very forum, I have fought people who said LCAs can do the work of medium-weights or that the Su-30s are the panacea to all of India's fighter needs. But is Rafale/EF, the absolutely most expensive fighter aircrafts on the military market our solution to medium weight fighters. I don't think so. I completely agree with you that Gripen is nothing but LCA++, and should not be pursued at any cost. Parrikar has made many mistakes. I hope he does not commit that blunder.

Also, I can't see the strategic angle. Because, we buy the Rafale, would be get technological help for the LCA. History has proved elsewise. The French were with us at the beginning of LCA, they left. They were with us on the Scorpenes, but they have never helped us on our indigenous submarine efforts. They have been providing us helicopters, and helicopter engines for decades, and yet when the time came to help HAL with LUH's transmission or GTRE with Kaveri, they asked for such astronomical amounts for such small incremental work, that everybody backed down. even in the civil sector, you can look at the nuclear sector.

I also do not buy the transfer of technology with the current 36 Rafales. They are to be bought off the shelf with 30% scredrivergiri at home. It does not bring us any technology. RAM coatings etc. are coming from the Russian side, with the work on the Super Su-30s and the FGFA.

There are only two angles:
1. The government is not technically savvy. They listen to those who are. And those who are, can't see beyond the Rafales. It was a sad day for me when the IAF chief says that there is no plan B for the INDIAN air force, if it can't import the Rafales. And I say this without any nationalistic fervour. (I hate the word nationalistic and its acceptance in modern day Indian political parlance. India was never a land of nationalists, and it never should be. India was, is and should remain the land of the patriots).
2. This military buy should be viewed in the larger theatre of geo-politics, in which case everything I said is moot.


So, which medium fighter would you buy today, if you were RM in place of Parrikar?

I am not being sarcastic, but asking a BRF Guru to clarify my confusion with a simple answer. The whole situation is getting to be too foggy for me. :-?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 14 Sep 2016 01:53

Ras/Kakkaji,

I am not a guru. If you think about it in a non-partisan way, I am stating the most obvious.

What I would do with $ 8B? There are many aspects of the IAF which have been red flagged for decades: infrstructure, radars, refuelers, AWACs. Forget, infrastructural needs and the outdated and often malfunctioning radars of our air defenses, we don't need the fingers of the second hand to count the number of AWACs + refuelers that are available at any time. I would first look into them. But, let's say the govt. is very savvy and is looking into getting funds for each of these neglected articles from somewhere else. Let's say that these $8B have to be for some reason spent on acquiring new new fighter aircraft and aircraft weaponry only, then what are India's options.

IAF has categorically said that it requires the capabilities of a medium weight fighter. I agree. I actually bow to their knowledge. Now what does that mean: a fighter which has approximately 70-80% of the endurance and weapon carrying capability of a heavy fighter. Accordingly, it should cost 70-80% to acquire and maintain. So how do we go about doing this in the current scenario. Let's look at the worst ways first:
1. Chose a medium weight fighter whose acquisition and maintenance cost is higher than that of your heavy weight fighter :roll:
2. Chose a new kind so that you have to have to pay extra for the separate infrastructure (when your infrastructure for current types is crumbling), separate training, separate weapons types, i.e. make sure that economies of scale can't kick in. :-?
3. How about make it a little worse: chose 2 new kinds, one that potential kills your indigenous design :D

Ironically, we are doing all of the above. It is not funny, it is actually sad.

What were possible Plan Bs (if we wanted to have them):
1. "I want my planes, and I want them now": By all Mirage-2000s on offer and upgrade them to one common upgraded standard to bridge you through to the advent of AMCAs. You will have the planes all the planes within 3 years.
2. Get the capabilities using existing fighter types. 36 Su-30s cost 3.6B, 36 LCAs cost about 1.6 B, 36 Mig-35s cost about 2.5B: do the math. There are so many combinations. No new training, no new manufacturing infrastructure, no "ToT", no new weaponry. And you know what's best, in times of war, numbers and availability are strongly correlated. With 8B $s, you could save enough to pour into the acceleration of design of Mk1A, Mk2, and AMCAs and speed-up the generation of build Tier 1/2 private manufactures to manufacture the Mk1A, and use them subsequently for Mk2/AMCA.
3. And if had to get a new kind, GET ONE. 26 makes no sense, and IAF whimpered when Modiji abruptly announced the 36 plane deal. Those whimpers were quickly doused iron handedly and replaced with praise. Nobody with any understanding of aircrafts can justify getting two new kinds of aircrafts while grappling with funds. Personally, I did not want the F-16s or the Gripens in IAF. But if Lockheed is ready to move F-16 production to India at a favourable price, get it. My end goal is to get independent of imports. Bring TASL up as a competitor to HAL in manufacturing technology.

We are looking at paying is 20-30B to acquire 120 odd 4th generation medium fighters in 2016. It's a shame.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 14 Sep 2016 02:10

chetak wrote:
Ras Al Ghul wrote:
Cheenis are not happy Saar.They want to sell us the Jf 17 Bandar.


I am sure you meant the pakis who are pushing international sales of the bandar :lol:


Baki is the showroom saar.Manufacturing is cheeni.And you know we dont buy from middle men.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 14 Sep 2016 02:21

indranilroy wrote:The French were with us at the beginning of LCA, they left.

It seems a french trait, they joined eurofighter then left midway and created rafale, they joined WASS Blackshark torpedo then left midway and created F-21, they started developing submarines with spain then left midway and created Scorpenes. It seems they enter a project and then after finding out all the techs and philosophy plus weakness and strength they leave and create competitor project.

They were with us on the Scorpenes, but they have never helped us on our indigenous submarine efforts.

Even after buying expensive Scorpenes when Bharat approached them for torpedos F-21 they rudely told us that they'll only sell it for scorpenes or other french-subs, but not for Aridaman and P-75I (in case from germany etc.) So we're buying German Seahake. Yes they are mighty snooty.


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