IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Gyan
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gyan » 06 Oct 2016 17:12

I was wondering, as to the possible equipment, we might get as India specific changes worth Euro 1700 million = Rs. 12500 crores. Some of them can be:-

Towed decoys
DIRCM
Satellite Comms
Integration with Indian weapons
More powerful engines - seems unlikely to me

What are the possible strategic ToT returns:-

Engine Technology
Tech for UCAV Aurora
IR sensor Array
Missile RF seeker
Assistance in AMCA etc etc

brar_w
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 06 Oct 2016 18:12

I wouldn't count on DIRCM being there either, thats a bit away given that they don't even have a prototype flying or even simulating fighter aircraft applications.

Gagan
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 06 Oct 2016 19:09

The only nitpicking with our armed forces I have are the number of projectiles - smart bombs, missiles, rockets, shells ityadi.
I hope they have enough.
The IAF chief during kargil said that they had a list of 5000 targets in Pakistan.
I wonder how they intended to target all of them.
Specially in a short 1 week campaign, they have to have the ability to take these out, AND then have enough assets in the air on CAP, Ground troop support missions

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gyan » 06 Oct 2016 21:22

I think IAF plans for a 30 day war.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Rakesh » 06 Oct 2016 23:56

Gagan: 5,000 targets can mean anything. But even in that number, there are priorities. Not all 5,000 would be at the same threat level. For example, one could assume the three Agosta boats, the Block 50/52 F-Solahs, P-3 Orions, etc represent the cutting edge (for them!) that Pakistan can put to war. So taking those out would be the greatest priority. And you then move down the list. So India's war planners would have to decide what represents the greatest threat, what needs to be taken out, what weaponry does India have to ensure that they are taken out and so on. In terms of having enough, it is not possible to destroy all 5,000 with BrahMos cruise missiles for example. Don't have that quantity, targets are mobile and a waste of resources. Read up on the 1998 Tomahawk cruise missile strike against Bin Laden.

The PAF parks all their jets in bomb hardened shelters. A Google Earth view clearly shows that. One would need real time satellite (or some other form of intelligence) data to determine where the three Agosta boats are at any given moment. After the destruction of a couple Orion airframes - a few years back - you can be sure the PN would be doubly careful where they park them. And the biggest caveat of all, India would have to launch a surprise attack first. Which means you have to blow these targets up when they least expect it. That is not going to happen because Pakistan attacks first and we retaliate. By the time India retaliates, their bases are on high alert. Target destruction can still take place, but not at the rate of a surprise attack. Then again, I am not sure what defences Pakistan has to stop a cruise missile attack for example. A lot of variables at play.

And equally important, if Pakistan feels that their cutting edge weaponry is being massacred, they will fall back on the one thing that they know. Nuclear missiles. You cannot rationalize with crazies. A nuclear strike on India, will mean the end of Pakistan. But that is not how they see it. All about H&D. Take out their nukes (quite hard to do actually) and you can have a field day. I guess the key is, have a short, but intense (mother of all battles, shock and awe or whatever you want to call it) conflict, curtail their offensive capability but ensure that they don't go nuclear. That is easier said than done.

I don't see how it is possible to attack all 5,000 targets in a war, unless you are the Almighty.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2016 00:51

copying a post by Philip from the Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments thread. I don't know how valid it is, but FWIW. Check it out...

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Combi ... s_Obsolete

Combination of an Indo-Russia BMD System will make Paki Nukes Obsolete

Thursday, October 06, 2016
By: Defence News

Indian BMDs coupled with the Russian S-400 will make Pakistani Missiles Obsolete. Ashwin is an anti-ballistic missile designed to intercept incoming ballistic missiles in the endo-atmosphere at an altitude of 30 km (19 mi).

Engine : Single Stage
Propellent : Solid Fuel
Operational Range : 150 - 200 km
Flight Altitude : 30 km (19 mi)
Speed : 4.5 Mach
Guidance System : Inertial Navigation System

This new supersonic missile interceptor will soon become a part of the Indian Army's arsenal of world class weaponry. India started its own BMD programme in 1995.

Last Decvember, India signed a deal with Russia to commence negotiations to acquire the S-400 Triumf Air Defence Missile System for an estimated Rs. 40,000 crore. The S-400 Triumf can tackle multiple Aerial threats at long ranges and is considered to be the most advance system available with Russia.

Combination of the S-400 and the India's BMD System will make Pakistan's Nuclear Missile threat completely obsolete.

Russian experts claim that the S-400 can blow stealth fighters like the American F-35 and the F-22 out of the air. It can also destroy aircraft or missiles flying five metres above ground level by targetting them from above.

Taking the Battle to the Enemy ::
Because the S-400 Missiles can travel at speeds of upto Mach 14 or 17,000 kmph, the system can literally take the war into the enemy's airspace.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For instance, an S-400 based in Halwara air base can bring down an F-16 flying over Lahore in just 34 seconds, giving the Pakistani pilot no time to say his prayers.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

After successful implementation of both the Indian and Russian BMD Systems in Delhi and Mumbai, the cover will be expanded to protect other major metro cities like Bangalore, Kolkatta, Ahmedabad, Pune, Chennai, etc. The dual shield can destroy incoming ballistic missiles launched from as far as 2,500 km (1,600 mi) away.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 07 Oct 2016 13:17

PGMs will quickly run out of the inventory.Even the mighty US ran out of PGMs faster than envisaged in their Gulf wars. Therefore,making "dumb" bombs "smart",with cheap kits should be accelerated as PGMs cost a whopper. This necessitates that aircraft should be able to penetrate enemy defences after expensive PGMs ,EW weapons,etc.,have been first used to clear a route into enemy airspace."knock down the door" as the Yanquis put it. The US envisages stealthy F-35s to be almost invulnerable to enemy air defences ,both knocking down the door and conducting precision strikes.

In the Indian context until our FGFAs arrive,we will have to make do with BMos stand-off strikes ,shorter ranged Ru and western PGMs and as much EW as possible to knock down dorrs. While our aircraft should be able to deal with the Paki air threat confidently,using our MKIs ,MIG-29UGs and Rafales,we will have to neutralise the Paki ground based anti-air capability.Low flying aircraft will be vulnerable to MANPADs in particular.Kargil losses must be kept in mind. Production of air launched BMos MKIs should be accelerated ,along with BMos-M,the planned smaller version which could then be carried on MIG-29s/29Ks,Rafales and MKIs. For the current crisis,acquiring PGMs from Israel should be the answer as the solutions mentioned above will take time for development,production and induction.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Gagan » 07 Oct 2016 18:11

Yes Rakesh
Taking out runways for example will render the base unusable for a few days.

But if the IAF is planning to go after every hardened bunker, then we've had it! That will take forever!
I feel that they should have enough missiles to do a nice big barrage fire to start off the festivities, use IAF for precision strike.
Why waste IAF, and risk precious pilots lives on fixed targets? These are likely to be heavily defended.
Use Missiles as much as possible for these.
Last edited by Gagan on 07 Oct 2016 19:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby la.khan » 07 Oct 2016 18:24

Philip wrote:Therefore, making "dumb" bombs "smart",with cheap kits should be accelerated as PGMs cost a whopper.

Sir, regarding the highlighted part, are you referring to Garuda & Garuthma?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Rakesh » 07 Oct 2016 19:01

Philip wrote:Therefore,making "dumb" bombs "smart",with cheap kits should be accelerated as PGMs cost a whopper.

Unsure about the cost, but Philip, the IAF did the exact same thing during Kargil.

Yes Gagan. While the IAF has identified 5,000 targets (and this number is not new....Air Marshal P K Barbora, AOC Western Air Command during the 2008 attacks, said the exact same number), what priorities those threat levels should be assigned is something India's war planners have to decide. By the way, taking out runways is only as effective as the crews who patch them up. Take it out, it will get repaired. Take it out again and it will get repaired again. You can't kill the crew, but you can destroy the asset. Forcing Pakistan to draw their precious weapons out is also equally effective. Destroying them in battle could make them less inclined to cross the threshold. I hope one of the target's is the Mush. He needs to go Al-Vida!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Indo-Pakistani_standoff
On 24 December, P.K. Barbora, the air officer commanding-in-chief of Western Air Command, said "[t]he IAF has earmarked 5,000 targets in Pakistan. But whether we will cross the LoC or the International Border to hit the enemy targets will have to be decided by the political leadership of the country"

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Rakesh » 08 Oct 2016 00:24

Special team for Rafale readies ground work, to visit France
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Special-team-for-Rafale-readies-ground-work-to-visit-France/articleshow/54681720.cms

The team will be constituted at the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) headquartered in Bengaluru, its commandant Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh confirmed to TOI. Singh, explained that the team, once constituted will have pilots, engineers and air crew. "The size of the team will vary. For the Su-30MKI for example, we had a 10 member team," he said.


India’s Rafale deal is leaving China rattled: Here’s why
http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/web-edits/indias-rafale-deal-is-leaving-china-rattled-heres-why-3061300/

Pointing fingers at the arms exporters in the ‘West’, the paper (my comment: Chinese state run paper as per the above link) also claimed that western exporters were not interested in helping the growth of India’s arms manufacturing industry. China itself is one of the major arms exporters. However, its own FC-1 and J10 aircrafts have been beaten in arms deals across the globe on several counts. The paper claimed that one of the reasons for India’s and other Asian arms importers’ heightened acquisition spree was the hyped China threat ‘pushed’ by the West.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Khalsa » 09 Oct 2016 07:36

GoodBye Thread
The Rafael is no longer a Mirage

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Rakesh » 14 Oct 2016 23:22

All the IAF’s flying, fighting machines: ‎Blenheim, Caribou, Tiger Moth, Rafale

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/all-the-iaf-s-flying-fighting-machines-blenheim-caribou-tiger-moth-rafale/story-zUX7d61RMkLMax57bwDYqN.html

French-made Rafale fighter planes will be the 80th type of aircraft to join the Indian Air Force fleet in 2019.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2016 00:14

Locking thread.
ramana


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