IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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shiv
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 28 Sep 2016 19:37

JayS wrote: For example, mastering SCB for AL-31FP didn't help HAL in making SCB for Kaveri much. They might help us see the differences in the design philosophies, (but haven't we seen enough of it??) but applying those things a whole lot different. In the best case scenario we might learn stuff in know-how, but nothing significant in know-why.

No - actually HAL has nothing to do with Kaveri, Kaveri is GTRE. Kaveri's issues were not SCB as far as I can tell but there was a fundamental "error in calculation" of the core engine itself which would need redesign from core stage. So the Kaveri is where it is - it is surely usable but probably not for Tejas

The other problem about PSUs and "young engineers" is they will not stay under a rotten inefficient hierarchy of old gobermint codgers - so attrition is a huge issue. But somehow HAL has retained youngsters for HTT 40 at least

SCBs are being made by Koraput HAL as well as by MDN - I have some images of the latter Technically HAL (or any company) can use the tech developed at MDN if they need blades - but it wont be MDN's business to make engine blades. Only the metallurgical takniki

For Kaveri onlee I think
Image
Last edited by shiv on 28 Sep 2016 19:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ldev » 28 Sep 2016 19:39

JayS wrote:For example, mastering SCB for AL-31FP didn't help HAL in making SCB for Kaveri much. They might help us see the differences in the design philosophies, (but haven't we seen enough of it??) but applying those things a whole lot different. In the best case scenario we might learn stuff in know-how, but nothing significant in know-why.......

........Precisely for same reason Rajiv Bajaj chose to start a whole new unit with completely new team for Pulsar - existing employees in Bajaj with scooter mentality said to him, 'we can't make bikes'.


Everybody talks about TOT. I think that is complete nonsense. Handing over a 5TB file detailing all the components, production processes and even design philosophies is not going to enable India make Rafale Mk 2 or any other aircraft. What is needed is a "pool of knowledge". And that "pool of knowledge" rests in the brains of people who have worked as a team in designing and then building a product. If no successor product is built and the entire older generation retires, then it becomes very difficult for the newer generation to start from scratch i.e. Russia struggling to build the T-50 is a classic example, as most of the older generation who were the core design/build team of the initial SU-27 series in the USSR are no longer there. IMO India has built that critical pool of knowledge in ISRO, but not in HAL.

As far as starting a new unit for a new product, like Rajiv Bajaj, it looks like the Modi Government has already realized that. Maybe an old pony like HAL cannot be taught new tricks. So they are open to completely new private sector players in India being involved in defence.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 29 Sep 2016 00:34

shiv wrote:No - actually HAL has nothing to do with Kaveri, Kaveri is GTRE. Kaveri's issues were not SCB as far as I can tell but there was a fundamental "error in calculation" of the core engine itself which would need redesign from core stage. So the Kaveri is where it is - it is surely usable but probably not for Tejas



Reply in Kaveri thread since OT here.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2016 05:34

shiv wrote:MMRCA saga is the only deal that I have heard of for which a price and number of aircraft was announced even before the aircraft was selected. IIRC it was touted as India's biggest deal 40,000 crores for up to 126 aircraft. We also cheered on BRF in 2011 sayng that China must attack before 2013 because the MMRCA will be here after 2013.

Describing the deal as "only 2 squadrons" and "piecemeal" is basically because everyone swallowed the crap that was put out in the media and reinforced on this agonizingly boring (to me) thread. Rafales are expensive. We chose them and found that we could not afford 126. Rejecting them meant a definite contraction of IAF to dangerous levels before 2020. We can barely afford 36 now when tailored to our needs. If we need more and have money later we will have to order more later. It is naive to imagine that a seller will not sell more to a buyer as long as the latter pays for it and the item is available for sale.


yup. modi/parrikar are buying 36 rafales because the economy is yet to become the raging bull it should to finance such huge buys. that is taking every bit of effort from relatively honest ministers at the central level working for a firm schoolmaster in his 60's who is busy fixing things. in the meantime, we have committed to 36 rafales, 100+ LCAs, and also are working to bring the su-30 fleet to a proper serviceability level (60% reached per reports). and then there are ammo reserves, spares for all the existing services. i'll take all our existing gear being serviceable over buying 90 more rafales today.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2016 05:45

current IAF committed purchases /fleet in being
Mirage 2000 - ~ 50 aircraft (all being upgraded)
MiG-29 - ~60 aicraft (all being upg)
Jaguars - 100 + (all being upg)
Su30s - 170+ (270 ordered); need fixing for some defensive aids, more spares, new AAMs in short term, replacing remaining MiG-21, MiG-27
LCA - 120 ordered (40 Mk1, 80 Mk2), will replace equal #s of MiG-21 Bison
Rafale - 36 ordered

Future
FGFA - 144 in discussion (offset retiring Jags, MiG-29s), numbers will likely increase to offset retiring older Su-30s.
AMCA (offset retiring Mirages, MiG-29s, Jags)

Now - the above is a 600 strong fighter fleet. The main priority should be to get it at highest serviceability (say 70%) giving you 400 odd airframes, full networking, defensive aids & proper PGM, weaponry plus simulators & training aids.

Add VHF radars, AWACS, IFR, new SAMs, upgrade Su-30s etc & the "need" for new fighters recedes despite a lot of concern over declining numbers.

More LCAs must & should be ordered as well as focusing on Su-30 readiness & full combat capability. These two alone will make a huge difference.

In short crying and wailing over ONLY 36 Rafales is premature. What GOI could afford now, GOI purchased.

I can only speak for myself but i see the numbers rising by another 24 airframes to give us 3 squadrons of around 16-18 aircraft with some 2-4 attrition replacements each.

They will take over the nuclear deterrence role from the Mirage 2000 fleet & also act as a force multiplier against the PRC Flanker fleet. The Rafale is very well suited for the nuclear role - especially if we manage to have the French include satcom datalinks & with its TFR mode & Spectra plus wideband SPJs (the French likely have a few) & its ability to self escort, its more discreet than the Su-30. Especially for any gravity bomb sort of mission and not an Su-30 launching a nuke tipped Brahmos or ALA.

Once the Su-30 Upgrades stabilize, more LCAs start coming in, the IAF will most likely be ok with a limited fleet of 50-60 Rafales as well, though if there are significant delays in the FGFA, more Rafales will be asked for.

Its all about finances. Right now, with the Meteor, AESA, Spectra & wide range of PGMs - the Rafale will be a very welcome addition to the IAF.

But for true combat power surge, continue to track Su30s and LCAs. They will come in numbers that matter & can be relatively surged more easily.

A 10% increase in serviceability on a 270 strong Su-30 fleet translates to 27 airframes.. 75% of the Rafale order!
80 LCA Mk2s - translates to freeing up 80 Su-30s for deep strike missions & not CAP/TBA missions.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 29 Sep 2016 05:53

The super 30 (mki) config perhaps be taken up for the remaining 100 to be delivered. of course a bit orthogonal to this thread, do we know if it will get composite skins? we could have some common composite materials for Sukhois, Rafale, PAKFA, LCA and AMCA, under make in India banner.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 29 Sep 2016 05:56

Anyhow, what I will be wishing for -
-70% Su-30 availability, improvements in defensive aids (eg SAP-518 purchase en masse) & Astra deployment
-LCA production stabilizing
- Akash Mk2, SRSAM picking up
- DRDO AEW&C induction + 2 more Phalcons
- MRSAM, SpyDer induction
- DRDO PGMs entering mass production
- ODL deployment
-IAF serviceability all hitting 60%+ levels for even older Jags and MiG-29 Upg stabilizing
- S-400 purchase & induction with proper spares support
-IFR, heli deals

With above itself, combat power of IAF will take huge jump, even keeping Rafale aside.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Sep 2016 06:24

Karan if french sincerely help with Kaveri as is being reported to get the thrust up and maybe servicing too, then many more Tejas with Kaveri can be had replacing all 450 Jags and 125 Jaguars =575 Tejas + 55 Trainer Tejas total numbering 630.

In a interview Baba Kalyani had shown great interest in manufacturing engines. So conglomerate of GTRE + Mishr Dhatu Nigam + Kalyani + L & T + Tata can be given a order of 630 Tejas and 1890 Kaveri Engines.

IAF will become very powerful replacing those 60s jets with M2K+ level Tejas that too with our own engine for the first time.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby RoyG » 29 Sep 2016 06:40

Manish_Sharma wrote:Karan if french sincerely help with Kaveri as is being reported to get the thrust up and maybe servicing too, then many more Tejas with Kaveri can be had replacing all 450 Jags and 125 Jaguars =575 Tejas + 55 Trainer Tejas total numbering 630.

In a interview Baba Kalyani had shown great interest in manufacturing engines. So conglomerate of GTRE + Mishr Dhatu Nigam + Kalyani + L & T + Tata can be given a order of 630 Tejas and 1890 Kaveri Engines.

IAF will become very powerful replacing those 60s jets with M2K+ level Tejas that too with our own engine for the first time.


You're dreaming. :lol:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Sep 2016 06:50

Roy ji, reading Kaveri thread as french are ready to re-invest 1 billion dollar to get the the wet thrust up from 74 kn to 90 kn, while dry thrust is already achieved, plus they help with metullargy that gives longer serviceability then why is it dreaming? Tejas with Kaveri will better all 3 jaguar, mig 21 & 27 by miles.

There was also a talk of Ruag germany offering to help in production of Tejas maybe one such foreign giant with desi giants can come together to produce huge number of Tejas and Kaveris. Potential could be more with Myamar, Vietnam importing them.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby MohdKav » 29 Sep 2016 11:25

shiv wrote:
For Kaveri onlee I think
Image



This is such a shoddy paint job, it is not even funny. If this is the quality control as well care taken for such a basic and easy task ( that too which was supposed to be kept on a display at an event) then I shudder to think about more intricate and complex systems. No wonder IAF isnt happy with buying Indian. This is not acceptable.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 29 Sep 2016 11:54

Karan M wrote:current IAF committed purchases /fleet in being
Mirage 2000 - ~ 50 aircraft (all being upgraded)
MiG-29 - ~60 aicraft (all being upg)
Jaguars - 100 + (all being upg)
Su30s - 170+ (270 ordered); need fixing for some defensive aids, more spares, new AAMs in short term, replacing remaining MiG-21, MiG-27
LCA - 120 ordered (40 Mk1, 80 Mk2), will replace equal #s of MiG-21 Bison
Rafale - 36 ordered

Future
FGFA - 144 in discussion (offset retiring Jags, MiG-29s), numbers will likely increase to offset retiring older Su-30s.
AMCA (offset retiring Mirages, MiG-29s, Jags)

Now - the above is a 600 strong fighter fleet. The main priority should be to get it at highest serviceability (say 70%) giving you 400 odd airframes, full networking, defensive aids & proper PGM, weaponry plus simulators & training aids.

Add VHF radars, AWACS, IFR, new SAMs, upgrade Su-30s etc & the "need" for new fighters recedes despite a lot of concern over declining numbers.

More LCAs must & should be ordered as well as focusing on Su-30 readiness & full combat capability. These two alone will make a huge difference.

In short crying and wailing over ONLY 36 Rafales is premature. What GOI could afford now, GOI purchased.

I can only speak for myself but i see the numbers rising by another 24 airframes to give us 3 squadrons of around 16-18 aircraft with some 2-4 attrition replacements each.

They will take over the nuclear deterrence role from the Mirage 2000 fleet & also act as a force multiplier against the PRC Flanker fleet. The Rafale is very well suited for the nuclear role - especially if we manage to have the French include satcom datalinks & with its TFR mode & Spectra plus wideband SPJs (the French likely have a few) & its ability to self escort, its more discreet than the Su-30. Especially for any gravity bomb sort of mission and not an Su-30 launching a nuke tipped Brahmos or ALA.

Once the Su-30 Upgrades stabilize, more LCAs start coming in, the IAF will most likely be ok with a limited fleet of 50-60 Rafales as well, though if there are significant delays in the FGFA, more Rafales will be asked for.

Its all about finances. Right now, with the Meteor, AESA, Spectra & wide range of PGMs - the Rafale will be a very welcome addition to the IAF.

But for true combat power surge, continue to track Su30s and LCAs. They will come in numbers that matter & can be relatively surged more easily.

A 10% increase in serviceability on a 270 strong Su-30 fleet translates to 27 airframes.. 75% of the Rafale order!
80 LCA Mk2s - translates to freeing up 80 Su-30s for deep strike missions & not CAP/TBA missions.


Karan, valid points. From the point of view of immediate or near immediate combat capability a lot can be done but the tragedy is that the glacial pace of approvals has not chnaged very much since June 2014. We have spent years figuring out what our purchase policy is instead of purchasing. Tanker deal has been stuck for years with no resolution in sight, the 2 additional phalcons have been on the anvil for years etc etc. If we don't solve our bureacucracy problems and get pvt sector in a big way things will keep going from bad to worse.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 30 Sep 2016 05:48

Akshay, you are right on the dot & my perception is that's because pretty much all deals in negotiation have been examined again. Rafale being a perfect example. Now for some look at what is done-

- The Upgrades + mission packs for the Mirage 2000 & MiG-29s are done. Main aim of IAF will be to get them to stabilize.
- The Su-30 mission availability rate has moved from a 48% to around 56-60% today. Parrikar is trying hard to get pvt sector to pick up spares + the deal with Russia for more spares support. Pvt sector thinks the Russian system is unreliable. Some more things need to be fixed with Su-30 (RWR, SPJ, AAM) but there are answers available or around the corner for all three.
-Jaguar upgrade is also well in progress but engine deal hasn't been signed. Even the basic avionics & PGM push would make them lethal.
- ODL, IACCS have all been signed and are in implementation.
- bunch of LGB/Spice ordered
- IIRC 9 MRSAM, 3 SpyDer, 16 Akash squadrons are all on order already.
-Confirmed radar orders include 18 French LLTR, 37 Rohini LLTR, 16 Israeli MPR, 20 odd LLLWR, 2 DRDO AEW&C, 3 Phalcons (inducted)
- Some squadrons of Brahmos & AL versions (200+)
- Additional orders are those 36 Rafale, 40 LCA Mk1 & 80 LCA Mk2 (which we are as usual haggling over best radar/EW fit between Indian/Israeli/Swedish vendors)

Pending items are local PGMs, spares agreements (eg for Su-30), 2 more Phalcons, some IFR, additional PGMs/missiles including more Spice etc.
And of course the LCA

Point is if we get the existing fleet up & running at decent serviceability, PAF will literally crap their salwars. Even as it stands, the Su-30 fleet is very powerful. Getting more of them and with the niggles worked out (I am sure the AF is doing that as we speak), will allow us to heavily dominate the PAF and deter the PLAAF.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2016 05:53

MohdKav wrote:
shiv wrote:
For Kaveri onlee I think
Image



This is such a shoddy paint job, it is not even funny. If this is the quality control as well care taken for such a basic and easy task ( that too which was supposed to be kept on a display at an event) then I shudder to think about more intricate and complex systems. No wonder IAF isnt happy with buying Indian. This is not acceptable.

No No. This is the unfinished product. And they are not painted - they are turbine blades

The spiral pipe explains how there are air filled gaps inside the blade for cooling. Those bits have to be removed and polished, not painted.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 30 Sep 2016 06:11

or coated with ceramic/composite nano-particles for high-heat protection.

aren't they for blisks? and highly susceptible to mistuning?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 30 Sep 2016 06:13

The completed trials of Garuda, Garuthma, Astra, Helina - these 4 itself will put the IAF in a hugely advantageous position. Imagine AF getting access to 1000 unit production runs of affordable PGMs and constant iterative improvements.

And for Su-30,
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 919425.cms

We still import some 30% spares by LRU count from Russia as I recall.

So IAF projects to HAL. HAL gets the spares from local & Russian vendors and puts ample numbers, financed by MOD.
Indian pvt vendors are unhappy working with Russian firms.
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... y-2960457/
“We have worked with Rosoboronexport which operates like a middleman. We paid the money to Rosoboronexport but the small Russian company never got the money from Rosoboronexport, and never sent us the parts. We are not alone, everyone has had complaints with Rosoboronexport which even the defence ministry is fully aware of,” Vice-President of a top Indian defence company told The Indian Express.


So HAL will do the heavy lifting of stockpiling.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 006_1.html

When Su-30 serviceability was 54%, but HAL was trying to make it 68%.
(a) 20 per cent of the fleet, i.e. some 39 Su-30MKIs, are undergoing "first line" and "second line" maintenance or inspections at any time, which is the IAF's responsibility; (b) Another 11-12 per cent of the fleet is undergoing major repair and overhaul by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL); and (c) 13-14 per cent of the fleet is grounded, awaiting major systems or repairs - the technical terms is: "aircraft on ground".


HAL noted
MoD was informed about serious problems with IAF's management of spares. By standard norms, a fighter fleet consumes five per cent of its worth in consumables and spares each year. By that benchmark the Su-30MKI fleet, currently worth about Rs 69,000 crore - 193 Su-30MKIs at Rs 358 crore a fighter - should consume spares worth Rs 3,450 crore annually. Yet, IAF orders from HAL add up to less than Rs 50 crore, including ground handling equipment.


This is actually the bloody UPA scam, they didn't fund the AF enough to order more spares.

But what we need to understand is how much does the spares -Rs correlation translate to.

To ensure that 13-14 per cent of the Su-30MKI fleet is not grounded for want of spares, HAL has stockpiled spares worth Rs 400 crore in Nashik. According to S Subrahmanyan, the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, the inventory is based on a study of consumption patterns of Su-30MKI spares over the preceding five years.

HAL says this buffer stock includes spares that are still purchased from Russia, because low consumption volumes make indigenisation non-cost-effective. Even so, non-availability of these spares could ground aircraft. Simultaneously, HAL has proposed to MoD that IAF must order spares required over a five-year period, stocking them at 25 Equipment Depot, IAF's holding depot for spares at Nashik.


Now HAL is being asked by MOD to stockpile some 2000 Crores worth of spares. That's 4x the above.
Now while we can say this includes 13-14% AOG which will still take time to fix, the remaining quantum of spares can be used for the first group (20% which are undergoing first and second line maintenance with IAF) and which can be fixed relatively quickly.

This is matched by what HAL says
HAL is confident that it can deliver higher serviceability rates for the Su-30MKI than the current 58 per cent. The company has argued that raising aircraft availability by 20 per cent would make 40 Su-30MKI additionally available to the IAF, effectively adding two fighter squadrons to its strike power.


Now add up the above - 54% +20% - very near the 75% Parrikar says is his aim for the Su-30 fleet. The remaining 25% - we will need spares but repairs will be taking time & won't be available in short term.

Hence, if above HAL agreement is pushed hard, we do have a possibility of rapidly improving Su-30 availability.

Now- technical issues;

1. RWR blanking. Issues are again not clear (for obvious reasons IAF won;t broadcast, while CAG claims local project was cancelled, DRDO yearbook mentions work on a new digital 6 channel RWR continues. Worse comes to worst, we can revert to Russian design, even if less fancy)
2. SPJs: We have an option. Heavy, but capable, Russian SAP-518s designed to work with Su-30.
3. Mission computer issue, resolved.
4. Engine issue - work in progress. Russians are working w/us to fix it. 34 failures in past few years but both sides claim they have an idea of what went wrong.
5. AAM issue: R-77s are unreliable. Well Astra has cleared most trials & is around the corner. Finally.
6. FBW issue: Again, while still something both sides have differing views on, one crash at least was caused by ergonomics (fixed) & relatively, the AF seems ok with the airframe.

All in all - the Su-30 has been a huge challenge but its fixable & Parrikar is working to a plan, methodically.

Add Garuthma, Garuda, NGARM to Su-30 and Jai Hind!

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 30 Sep 2016 09:44

shiv wrote:
MohdKav wrote:

This is such a shoddy paint job, it is not even funny. If this is the quality control as well care taken for such a basic and easy task ( that too which was supposed to be kept on a display at an event) then I shudder to think about more intricate and complex systems. No wonder IAF isnt happy with buying Indian. This is not acceptable.

No No. This is the unfinished product. And they are not painted - they are turbine blades

The spiral pipe explains how there are air filled gaps inside the blade for cooling. Those bits have to be removed and polished, not painted.


I thought he was being sarcastic.

That spiral pipe is kind of a crystal seed selector/eliminator - it allows only one crystal seed to grow eliminating rest all. There will be machining, polishings, holes drilling, TBC coating following on these blades.

SaiK wrote:aren't they for blisks? and highly susceptible to mistuning?

What are you talking about??

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2016 10:08

SaiK wrote:or coated with ceramic/composite nano-particles for high-heat protection.

aren't they for blisks? and highly susceptible to mistuning?

BLISK = BLade+dISK - a single piece hub+blades machined out of one solid block with no removable parts or blades that can work themselves loose

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2016 10:17

JayS wrote:That spiral pipe is kind of a crystal seed selector/eliminator - it allows only one crystal seed to grow eliminating rest all. There will be machining, polishings, holes drilling, TBC coating following on these blades.

I thought the pipe was to "drain out" the dissolved inner core for air channels within the blade structure on top of which the blade is "grown" followed by removal/dissolution of the inner core to leave gaps for air cooling of blades. I have an image of the same blades hollow inside but its worse than the pic above. There is a blisk on the left of the first image below. Click on thumbnail
Image

Image

Image
Last edited by shiv on 30 Sep 2016 10:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2016 10:25

Heres some better looking stuff from Koraput for Al-31
Click on image
Image


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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 30 Sep 2016 12:17

Blisks have been developed by a desi pvt. firm some years ago for HAL,but they never got any orders! Since they recd. some funding,they cannot even market the tech anywhere.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 30 Sep 2016 12:33

Shiv, there is a lot of material readily available describing SCB casting - its basically investment casting followed by a very carefully controlled cooling. The helical pipe is where the secrete of Single Crystal growth lies. But of coarse accurate temperature gradient along the length is very important as well.

I am being lazy now but one image I found quickly. Notice single crystal selector in figure below.

Image

For evaporation of mold wax just a hole in the casting is enough, no needs for helical tube. As such in investment casting the wax is removed when the ceramic mold is prepared by curing it in oven - wax burns off. Metal is poured in this mold so no need of any exit for evaporation of wax or anything else.

Video showing how grain selection works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=br9iaeYYxSM

A video showing general investment casting process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX8w-GUPz1w

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2016 14:41

^^OK thanks

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby MohdKav » 30 Sep 2016 19:47

shiv wrote:No No. This is the unfinished product. And they are not painted - they are turbine blades

The spiral pipe explains how there are air filled gaps inside the blade for cooling. Those bits have to be removed and polished, not painted.



Shiv,

Those are painted. Make no doubt about it. You can look at the edges as well as the discoloration on the top one.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 01 Oct 2016 00:25

..dont look painted to me.. i have seen these items up close at the same shows and they always looked like plain metal.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 01 Oct 2016 01:35

^^ Shiv/Karan you are right. No paint and they are raw from casting - unfinished/unmachined.

@MohdKav
You could blame these guys for shoddiness at 1000 other places, but not this one. Why would they paint it at all?? No blades in engine are painted. There exists no paint which can withstand operating temperatures in turbine. They do have Thermal Barrier Coating - typically some kind of ceramic - looks whitish. But these blades seem totally naked.

Karan M
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 01 Oct 2016 10:13

i have been to most of these shows, Shiv more than i.
and then MohdKav comes and categorically state these are painted on the basis of a low rez pic.

HAL, GTRE et al have habit of putting up prototypes, castings etc without two hoots about prettying them up. Our arms are also often in gloss as versus the oh-so-cool looking matte finish in furren shows.

you said it, enough exists to actually point fingers at HAL for some areas. but to pick up random pics and claim shoddiness in painting, is pointless.

want to see bad painting? look inside an OFB made arjun from one of the initial batches sometimes. there you will see real shoddiness.

shiv
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2016 10:18

MohdKav wrote:
shiv wrote:No No. This is the unfinished product. And they are not painted - they are turbine blades

The spiral pipe explains how there are air filled gaps inside the blade for cooling. Those bits have to be removed and polished, not painted.



Shiv,

Those are painted. Make no doubt about it. You can look at the edges as well as the discoloration on the top one.

I took those photos. I held those things in my hand. They were on a MDN stall Mishra Dhatu NIgam the metallurgy PSU. Rough and unfinished yes. Painted. No. Bad photo from a lousy camera. If you still think they were painted and I did not notice - I am happy to accept that as your viewpoint.

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Oct 2016 12:39

Karan M wrote:Akshay, you are right on the dot & my perception is that's because pretty much all deals in negotiation have been examined again. Rafale being a perfect example. Now for some look at what is done-

- The Upgrades + mission packs for the Mirage 2000 & MiG-29s are done. Main aim of IAF will be to get them to stabilize.
- The Su-30 mission availability rate has moved from a 48% to around 56-60% today. Parrikar is trying hard to get pvt sector to pick up spares + the deal with Russia for more spares support. Pvt sector thinks the Russian system is unreliable. Some more things need to be fixed with Su-30 (RWR, SPJ, AAM) but there are answers available or around the corner for all three.
-Jaguar upgrade is also well in progress but engine deal hasn't been signed. Even the basic avionics & PGM push would make them lethal.
- ODL, IACCS have all been signed and are in implementation.
- bunch of LGB/Spice ordered
- IIRC 9 MRSAM, 3 SpyDer, 16 Akash squadrons are all on order already.
-Confirmed radar orders include 18 French LLTR, 37 Rohini LLTR, 16 Israeli MPR, 20 odd LLLWR, 2 DRDO AEW&C, 3 Phalcons (inducted)
- Some squadrons of Brahmos & AL versions (200+)
- Additional orders are those 36 Rafale, 40 LCA Mk1 & 80 LCA Mk2 (which we are as usual haggling over best radar/EW fit between Indian/Israeli/Swedish vendors)

Pending items are local PGMs, spares agreements (eg for Su-30), 2 more Phalcons, some IFR, additional PGMs/missiles including more Spice etc.
And of course the LCA

Point is if we get the existing fleet up & running at decent serviceability, PAF will literally crap their salwars. Even as it stands, the Su-30 fleet is very powerful. Getting more of them and with the niggles worked out (I am sure the AF is doing that as we speak), will allow us to heavily dominate the PAF and deter the PLAAF.


Thanks for the info. Some questions. What is ODL ? And how soon will all the radar orders take to be inducted ? What kind of AD coverage will that give us ? Lastly the glide bomb family - Garuda etc...who will manufacture them ? There lies the major bottleneck. DRDO for all its problems and issues does have some good products but in manufacture you see serious problems. I was a YO when INSAS was inducted ....we were all very positive about it and stories going around in units were 'INSAS is a great weapon, a jeep was driven over a magazine and it did not crack' but these were prototypes. As time passed we realised that Production models has serious issues and we rapidly moved to AKs in RR ops. Of course there was this whole calibre and magazine capacity thing but reliability was also a major driver. Then I have posted before about how Bharat Forge L52 trails by army were scuttled by bureaucracy. If we get BF in a big way atleast 50% of our arty issues can be resolved - both guns and ammunition.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Rahul M » 01 Oct 2016 13:33

ODL - operational datalink, to network aircraft with each other and control stations/AEW&C aircraft.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 01 Oct 2016 17:36

shiv wrote:
MohdKav wrote:

Shiv,

Those are painted. Make no doubt about it. You can look at the edges as well as the discoloration on the top one.

I took those photos. I held those things in my hand. They were on a MDN stall Mishra Dhatu NIgam the metallurgy PSU. Rough and unfinished yes. Painted. No. Bad photo from a lousy camera. If you still think they were painted and I did not notice - I am happy to accept that as your viewpoint.

AI 2017 site is up. This time tickets' price reduced as well. :mrgreen:

Hope we can have 2nd Gen SCBs put up on display. And @MohdKav can go and have a look personally for checking the blades.

JTull
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JTull » 01 Oct 2016 23:00

OT: Hmmm AI2017 will still be in same location - no move to Goa?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Sumeet » 02 Oct 2016 15:37

Now that Rafale deal is signed we should work on Airborne Electronic attack & Escort Jamming technology with France. It will come helpful in future in AMCA, UCAV. It will help us penetrate deep through heavily protected(SAM) area. Besides that, the psychological edge that possession of such system will add is an asset in itself.

Thales has already done some work in this area.

Thales Airborne Electronic Attack

New Airborne Electronic Attack concept for electronic support jamming missions in present and future environments
Increased ES/EA mission capability through advanced jamming functions

    Pod or internally mounted, for fighter aircraft, UAV, J-UCAV or mission aircraft with network centric warfare (NCW) capabilities
    Very high power main / side / scattered lobe jamming
    Unsigned raid DDA, up to RF horizon action possible
    Smart techniques / coherent waveforms / covert jamming
    Smart power management using active phased array transmitter

Outstanding performance with latest jamming technologies
    Solid-state active phased array AESA jamming
    Highly sensitive digital reception
    Highly effective multi-bit DRFM jamming techniques

Main features
    Very high ERP, for main, side and scattered lobes jamming
    Multiple DRFM architecture for simultaneous beam aimed multi-threat jamming
    Smart digital jamming techniques
    Wide angular coverage, up to 360°
    Extended low and high brand threat coverage capabilities

Carbone Demonstration Aircraft
The new Thales AEA concepts and technologies have been implemented within the CARBONE demonstration programme.
CARBONE was presented and evaluated during the MACE X NATO trials, operating against sophisticated eastern/western radar technologies.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Oct 2016 17:01

^Israelis are ages ahead of french in radar & jamming technology, they are only second to usa in this dept. That's why we chose Israel for PHALCON too though french have their own aew & c tech.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Bhaskar_T » 02 Oct 2016 17:14

Parrikar ji says Rafale may come early. Early arrivals of Rafale by few months are welcome but wont make much difference. Is he trying to say something else? Is the message for Pakistan, China that we are getting bigger and better? And if they are coming earlier, is it because of India talking to other customers and influencing for India's early Rafale delivery? Or French Air Force has taken a back seat?


http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-ma ... ar-1469117

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said that India may start getting Rafale fighter aircraft from France earlier than the agreed-upon 36 months.

"As per terms of the deal it is 36 months (during which the delivery has to start), but it may come slightly earlier. We have requested them to (deliver it) as fast as possible," he said.

On September 23, India and France signed the Euro 7.87-billion (Rs. 59,000 crore approx) deal for Rafale fighter jets, equipped with latest missiles and weapon system besides multiple India-specific modifications that will give the IAF greater "potency" over Pakistan.

The 'vanila price' (just of the aircraft alone) will cost about 91 million Euros each for a single seater and about 94 million Euros for a two seater trainer aircraft.

Mr Parrikar also said that a 12-member committee to suggest structural changes in the military on cutting down flab and reducing revenue (maintenance) expenditure will soon submit its report.

The committee is headed by Lt Gen (Retd) DB Shekatkar.



Philip
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 03 Oct 2016 11:57

We should've asked for the first sqd to be transferred from French stock within 18 months and returned after new aircraft arrived.That I think was done with the Jags and first SU-30s. Until then we should try and acquire asap more aircraft of types in service to bolster our capability tx to the current crisis.One is sure that more Flankers can be acquired/leased from Ru,even more MIG-29s from existing stock. Whether the French AF have M2Ks available too.If enough aircraft to meet the reqs of two more sqds immediately,it will help considerably.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Chinmay » 03 Oct 2016 13:50


JayS
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 03 Oct 2016 15:59

^^ So my hope of getting anything meaningful from offsets has just died. Chita bhai will have his own cut on everything now.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby maxratul » 03 Oct 2016 16:21

looks like we are guaranteed to increase the Rafale fleet beyond the 36 now. As an optimist, I can only say that this might be the beginning of a non-HAL military aerospace entity in India.


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