Same result if no one knows what the problem is and/or where it is. We are talking circuit breakers who impede the flow of information. I don't know about foreign powers but as Walt Kelly once said (through Pogo): "we have met the enemy and he is us".NRao wrote:I assume that means that everyone knows what the problem is and where exactly it is. And nothing can be done? Outside of blaming foreigners?Not a chance
Against whom? We don't need them against the pakis and it makes no sense against the ChineseMarcH wrote:...
The only explanation I've got is that the Rafale is planned as nuke carrier.
Five months after India announced the deal to purchase 36 Rafale fighter jets "off the shelf" from France, much of the expectations from the big-ticket deal appears to have evaporated due to protracted negotiations that look set to continue for some more months
While voices from both sides say there is hope for the deal being concluded by December this year, on the French side there is some frustration at the long-winded nature of the negotiations.
The deal for purchase of the 36 Rafale jets, by Dassault Aviation, was announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Paris in April. India decided to purchase the 36 jets from Paris in a flyaway condition in a government-to-government agreement.
The Indian Air Force, which badly needs to replace its aging fleet of Soviet MIG aircraft, was looking forward to the new planes.
However, the offsets clause that requires 50 percent of indigenous content in big-ticket defence contracts is believed to be a stumbling block, as also the pricing.
The deal is estimated at $8 billion. While India and France are still involved in the sticky negotiations, Egypt has already welcomed three Rafale jets into the country in July - five months after inking a deal for 24 of the French jets.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi inked the contract for 24 Rafales in Cairo in February, in an estimated $5.6 billion deal. Qatar also inked a deal in March this year for purchase of 24 Rafale jets.
According to reports, three twin-seat variant of the jet were delivered in Cairo on July 21. Egypt inked a deal to acquire 16 two-seaters and eight single-seaters Rafale fighters. France is also training Egyptian pilots to fly the Rafale.
French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian visited Cairo a few days after France delivered the jets. He was to visit India on August 31 during which the deal was expected to be inked. Le Drian was in Malaysia to hardsell the Rafale and the Mistral warship.
However, he flew straight on to Europe after it became known that the negotiations were not likely to be concluded soon.
The Indian defence ministry had at the time refused to confirm his visit.
According to French envoy Francois Richier, the defence minister had to fly to Europe to attend a EU defence ministers meeting. Richier said France is hopeful of concluding the negotiations soon.
The progress in negotiations was reviewed by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the top acquisition body of the defence ministry, chaired by Minister Manohar Parrikar on September 1. Sources said the progress in talks between both sides was "satisfactory".
"The negotiations are on the right track. The DAC was briefed about it, and they gave the go ahead," an official told IANS, not wanting to be identified.
According to informed sources, France is reported to be unhappy over the offset clause that requires it to invest 50 percent of the value of the contract in India. This clause was present in the original deal for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale jets.
According to sources, the French may be given a "concession" in the clause and talks are on. However, a final decision is yet to be taken -- one of the reasons for the delay in the deal. Another factor is that India has asked for two air bases for the 36 jets, which France is reported to be unhappy about as it would lead to cost escalation, sources said.
The French side is believed to be of the view that the Rafale should not be cheaper priced for India, as compared to the deals inked with Egypt and Qatar.
The Indian Air Force is expected to be down to 32 squadrons by the end of this year - 576 fighter jets short of the 750-strong fleet required as per the IAF vision document, in case of a two-front war with Pakistan and China.
At least three squadrons of the vintage Soviet Union-origin MiG-21 and MiG-27 single engine aircraft are scheduled to be phased out, officially by the year-end.
The IAF currently has 33 combat squadrons against a sanctioned strength of 39.5, which is sought to be raised to 42.
Like hell they should.According to informed sources, France is reported to be unhappy over the offset clause that requires it to invest 50 percent of the value of the contract in India. This clause was present in the original deal for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) Rafale jets.
According to sources, the French may be given a "concession" in the clause and talks are on. However, a final decision is yet to be taken -- one of the reasons for the delay in the deal. Another factor is that India has asked for two air bases for the 36 jets, which France is reported to be unhappy about as it would lead to cost escalation, sources said.
The Indian side should simply invite LM to match or beat the French offer.The French side is believed to be of the view that the Rafale should not be cheaper priced for India, as compared to the deals inked with Egypt and Qatar.
A no-go if these are marked for SFC aircraft or if we want to integrate non-US missiles/munitions.Viv S wrote:The Indian side should simply invite LM to match or beat the French offer.The French side is believed to be of the view that the Rafale should not be cheaper priced for India, as compared to the deals inked with Egypt and Qatar.
- Integrating non-US missiles/munitions is far far cheaper & easier on an aircraft with UAI functionality (Blk 4). Already we have the MBDA ASRAAM, Storm Shadow & SPEAR 3, Konsberg JSM and Roketsan SOM, plus whatever else the Israelis add. In contrast, everything on the Rafale is French and pricey (except for the Paveway series).JTull wrote:A no-go if these are marked for SFC aircraft or if we want to integrate non-US missiles/munitions.
2025 i am told.afale negotiations Stuck as usual - maybe December now
Others do ORBAT on IAF, don't they? It pays not to underestimate MIC in Europe/US. At the same time India needs to develop some leverage of its own by hook or by crook.biswassb wrote:It is very difficult for Indian team to negotiate with Dussault when IAF Chief is going around almost every week and talking to the Press and letting everyone know that IAF is in dire need of 10 squadron of fighter jets. Because of this alone, Dussault is demanding such a high price. I rarely see Pentagon Generals in US going around and giving press briefings. PM should issue a gag order against Indian Generals from talking to the Press. They should only talk to MOD about the needs of the Military.
Pardon my saying this but to me your post comes out as one that is anxious to get the Rafale deal done soon. That is the exact sentiment that you are accusing the Air Chief of harbouring. So what is the difference of opinion? Your argument is that you want him to shut his mouth because you think that the Air Chief is spoiling his own air force's chances of getting the plane soon and that you know better.biswassb wrote:It is very difficult for Indian team to negotiate with Dussault when IAF Chief is going around almost every week and talking to the Press and letting everyone know that IAF is in dire need of 10 squadron of fighter jets. Because of this alone, Dussault is demanding such a high price. I rarely see Pentagon Generals in US going around and giving press briefings. PM should issue a gag order against Indian Generals from talking to the Press. They should only talk to MOD about the needs of the Military.
Let me offer my suggestion as an addition to yours: Henceforth all service chiefs should be MOD babus. These generals should not be seen by anyone.biswassb wrote:It is very difficult for Indian team to negotiate with Dussault when IAF Chief is going around almost every week and talking to the Press and letting everyone know that IAF is in dire need of 10 squadron of fighter jets. Because of this alone, Dussault is demanding such a high price. I rarely see Pentagon Generals in US going around and giving press briefings. PM should issue a gag order against Indian Generals from talking to the Press. They should only talk to MOD about the needs of the Military.
Statement made by the Prime Minister after signing Agreements in Paris (April 10, 2015)
April 10, 2015
(Original Speech was in Hindi; this is English translation of original speech)
His Excellency President Hollande and all the representatives of media present here,
I am really happy to come to France today. I pay my compliments to the President and the people of France for according warm welcome and honor to me. This is my first visit to Europe but I am starting my first visit from France. The start of visit from France symbolizes the inherently deep, old and important relationship India and France share, the importance of our relationship for the future! France is one of India’s closest friends and reliable partners. As President mentioned, we are moving forward with common traditions in many things. France stood by India in both good and challenging times. France has always been sensitive towards India and has openly sided with India at the international platforms and has supported India. We are two big democratic countries. Our values are alike, our interests, in many ways are connected with each other and we complement each other. Our relationship is extensive, from ground to sky, from ocean to space and now we are cooperating in the cyber space. Today, there is no area in which France and India do not have partnership. Today, myself and President Hollande had a very constructive conversation. Our relationship related to defence has been very old and deep. France has always been a reliable supplier of Defence Equipments and Technology. From Fighter Jets to Submarines, our cooperation has been excellent. By keeping in mind the critical operational necessity of Fighter Air Crafts, I spoke with the President about the purchase of 36 Rafael Jets in Flyaway Condition through the agreement between both the governments. We both took a decision that for India these will be given in a separate process, that the terms and conditions will be modified for this purpose and along with this, the President has fully supported us in ‘Make in India’ in Defence sector and he has appreciated the ‘Make in India’ initiative not only a Project but also as an Ambition.
Indian and French companies will make the defence equipments together in India and at the same time develop the defence techniques. In this context, I had a detailed discussion with the defence companies of France. Today, we have taken the defence partnership of India and France to a new height. In Nuclear Power sector, France is one of India’s leading partners. I am glad that we have made progress on constructing six Nuclear Plants in Jaitapur. In order to reduce the cost of power generation, both parties have signed an agreement for more technical capacity and study. Especially, today an Agreement has been finalized between AREVA and L&T for the manufacturing of Forgings and I believe that this Agreement is very important. It will be an excellent example of ‘Make in India’ and India will find a new place in the field of Advanced Technology.
India is very grateful for the strong support of France for the membership in the International Export Control Regime. India and France have completed 50 years in Space Cooperation. I am glad that President and I have released a Postal Stamp today. We have decided to pursue our cooperation in Satellite manufacturing and its launch. After India’s Mars Orbiter Mission, now we will together cooperate in Planetary Exploration. Today, economic growth in India is fastest in the world. France can contribute in a big way in India’s development and here also France will derive economic benefit out of it. Today morning, I met with the representatives of Infrastructure Industry of France. A while back President and I also met the CEO Forum. I strongly believe that French companies will raise their investment in India. We will cooperate in the Railway Infrastructure Renewal. We will also move forward with the cooperation of France towards my government’s other initiatives such as Skill Development, Renewable Energy, Energy Efficiency, Smart Cities and Digital India. Science & Technology is a very important pillar of our relationship. There are two important Agreements signed today. I lay great emphasis on the sustainable development of Ocean Economy which means Blue Revolution. In this context I particularly welcome the Agreement in the field of Marine Biology. I am so glad that France will proceed with us in Urban Heritage and Tourism Promotion. All are familiar with the capacity of France in this field. I was very happy to tell the President that the citizens of France will get an easy access to India through Electronic Travel Authorization, which not only facilitates development of relationship but also facilitates the ease of travel. Today we have agreed that our students after their study can stay in the country for Professional Training. This will increase their potential to get employment. The environment of today’s world is challenging. There is turmoil in many areas with which everybody is affected. In the changing world there are many doubtful questions about the stability.
Maritime, Cyber and Space Security is a concern for all. Terror is spreading and is adapting new faces. Many areas and cities in the world are facing this challenge. Whether it is Paris or Mumbai, India and France have suffered pain and understood each other. There is a need for a global strategy for this global challenge. It is a responsibility of every nation to give full support in fight against the terror and to not to give shelter to terrorist groups and lawfully punish the terrorists the soonest possible. India and France look at these challenges from a similar perspective in many ways and due to this reason we will make our security cooperation stronger. In this context we will exchange ideas about the Indian Ocean. The reforms in the UN Security Council are the joint obligation of the two of us. I am grateful to France for his support for India’s Permanent Membership in the Security Council. I have full believed that a new roadmap for the world will come into existence under the leadership of France in COP-21 Conference to be held in Paris at the end of this year. India and France will together carry forward their cooperation on the topics of Climate Change and Energy. Finally, I again convey my heartiest to the President. I believe that our Strategic Partnership has reached a new height today, which will contribute in making the future bright of the citizens of both our nations and also in bringing peace, security and prosperity in the world.
Thank you very much
deejay wrote:Let me offer my suggestion as an addition to yours: Henceforth all service chiefs should be MOD babus. These generals should not be seen by anyone.biswassb wrote:.It is very difficult for Indian team to negotiate with Dussault when IAF Chief is going around almost every week and talking to the Press and letting everyone know that IAF is in dire need of 10 squadron of fighter jets. Because of this alone, Dussault is demanding such a high price. I rarely see Pentagon Generals in US going around and giving press briefings. PM should issue a gag order against Indian Generals from talking to the Press. They should only talk to MOD about the needs of the Military.
So the media can say what they like, report as inaccurately as they want but everyone else should have a disciplined approach? That will not stop media misreporting and we who read that will ask for still more discipline no?srai wrote:
On a more serious note (IMO), a more disciplined approach may be necessary when interacting with media and communicating with a wider audience. Probably a dedicated PR team is the need of the hour for all those involved. Everyone who interacts with media should be trained on how to answer specific types of questions. No more "three-legged cheetah" or "no plan B" type of statements.
Maybe once they finalise the Super MKI upgrade plans with new radar, upgraded weapons and engine.Gyan wrote:I have still not understood as to what's wrong in more MKIs?
Simple there is no plan BGyan wrote:I have still not understood as to what's wrong in more MKIs?
Your timelines are a bit off.VKumar wrote:In time to come, I expect Rafale to reach at least 5 squadrons by 2022, as MIG 21 & 27 retire in large numbers.
I expect LCA production to ramp up 2017, especially with LCA 2, to give 5 squadrons of LCA (mix) by 2022.
Perhaps if PAKFA is delayed, we may induct more of SU 30MKI, maybe 3 squadrons additionally by 2022.
UCAV will be an additional layer.
Aircraft numbers will reduce but capability of new aircraft will take care of that.
With PAKFA, LCA newer versions, MCA all coming about 2025 time frame and with essential force multipliers sufficient in numbers and technology as compared to our neighbours , IAF will be in strong position by 2030 on all fronts. Its the economy that has to hold up. Hardware will be in place but attracting right type of pilots will be critical requiring more investment in HRD, better emoluments etc.
NEW DELHI: A major breakthrough could be imminent in the Rafale fighter aircraft deal with the French side agreeing to an Indian condition that calls for investing 50% of the deal value in 'Make in India' projects in the defence, security and aerospace sectors. A top team from Paris, led by Engineer-General Stephane Reb, director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French ministry of defence will be in Delhi on Tuesday to work out final price negotiations and take the deal to the final stage, sources familiar with the development told ET.
The French manufacturers of the Rafale fighter will commit to making investments worth $4.5 billion in the Indian industry as part of the deal. Sources aware of the matter told ET that while the French side has accepted in principle a 50% offset clause, which requires the Rafale manufacturers to invest half the deal value in India, the government will also liberalise its stringent defence offsets policy to address some specific concerns of the manufacturer.
A final pact could be ready within a month. Negotiations had been stalled over these offset conditions.
The two sides are now working to finalise the draft Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) that will be signed as part of the deal after the logjam over offsets and pricing was broken following top-level political intervention from New Delhi and Paris. Air Marshal SPB Sinha, the deputy chief of air staff, will lead the final price discussions from the Indian side. As reported by ET, the Rafale deal had been delayed following differences on pricing as well as the offsets clause between the two sides.
The logjam has been broken with a broad agreement on hybrid offsets in which French investments in other Make in India projects will also be considered as meeting offset obligations.
The investments in India could include civilian projects that companies like Dassault and Thales are pursuing. One of the Make in India investments is likely to be in the manufacturing of components of the French Falcon executive jets as well as in the smart city projects of Thales.
On September 1, the Indian negotiating team had been given a go-ahead to conclude the deal following a top-level defence acquisition meet in the Capital. Prime Minister Narendra Modi met his French counterpart in the US on Monday and is expected to discuss the state of the negotiations.
The deal, clinched in principal during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April, has since been stuck for over four months now.
A major breakthrough could be imminent in the Rafale fighter aircraft deal with the French side agreeing to an Indian condition that calls for investing 50% of the deal value in 'Make in India' projects in the defence, security and aerospace sectors. A top team from Paris, led by Engineer-General Stephane Reb, director of the International Directorate of the DGA (General Directorate for Armament) of the French ministry of defence will be in Delhi on Tuesday to work out final price negotiations and take the deal to the final stage, sources familiar with the development told ET.
The French manufacturers of the Rafale fighter will commit to making investments worth $4.5 billion in the Indian industry as part of the deal. Sources aware of the matter told ET that while the French side has accepted in principle a 50% offset clause, which requires the Rafale manufacturers to invest half the deal value in India, the government will also liberalise its stringent defence offsets policyto address some specific concerns of the manufacturer.
Well ... French would say look we have upped it from $4B to $4.5 billion (investment in India) ... better deal than what Modi's handshake deala_bharat wrote:When Modi visited France, the initial figure was $ 4B. The next day, the number was $ 5B. Later it became $ 8B. Now, it is $ 9B.
50% cashback now assured!a_bharat wrote:When Modi visited France, the initial figure was $ 4B. The next day, the number was $ 5B. Later it became $ 8B. Now, it is $ 9B.
Now the French have a problem with their partner in the private sector too! After all that complaining about sclerotic inefficient HAL.India and France are engaged in intense negotiations to thrash out an inter-governmental agreement which would provide the framework for final negotiation on the deal for 36 Rafale fighters.
Sources on both sides said the deal was far from final conclusion, and serious differences over almost every major aspect of the deal for the advanced fighters remain. Among them are French side’s concerns about a major Indian private sector conglomerate whose services are being recommended by some sections of the Indian government.
Officials said a delegation of senior officials from the French government had been in New Delhi for the past few days fine-tuning the agreement to be signed between the two sides.
The deal for the purchase of 36 fighters from Dassault announced by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Paris in April is yet to be formally signed into an agreement. “It would be a framework under which we will have to deal with various aspects of the deal,” a source said.
One official in the know of things said the French side had several concerns that could play out as both sides sit down to carry out specific negotiations. Key among them is their questions about what role a major Indian private conglomerate would play in the deal. Due diligence done on the group, recommended strongly by a section in the government, has thrown up questions over its financial capabilities, the sources said.
The two sides could also find the negotiations running into serious trouble over the offset clause for the deal. While the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal — the precursor to the present Rafale deal — had 50 per cent offset, and most of its fighters were to be assembled in India, the deal under negotiation is for off-the-shelf purchase of 36 fighters from France.
The Economic Times on Tuesday reported that a major breakthrough was imminent in the deal with the French side agreeing to an Indian condition that calls for investing 50 per cent of the deal value in ‘Make in India’ projects in the defence, security and aerospace sectors. Under the formula, the newspaper said, French investments in other projects, including in civilian sectors, will also be considered as meeting offset obligations. Sources said the French side was hopeful of a more liberalised offset policy, without which the contract would be difficult to execute. Another issue would be over the final price of the fighter. Sources said India could demand mounting of some non-French armaments on Rafale, which could also add to further complications in the deal.
Ze evil French again...Must be a conspiracy. The negotiator psychopaths from Dassault and the generous Indian MoD. Nice pitch to fuel any kind of rumors.Now the French have a problem with their partner in the private sector too! After all that complaining about sclerotic inefficient HAL.