IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Feb 2016 04:02

NRao wrote:If so, Advanced Super Hornet, F/A-18.

We'd have to finance it independently. The home market doesn't need it as much, the SH will be complemented by the F-35C in USN service.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Feb 2016 04:37

Viv S wrote:
NRao wrote:If so, Advanced Super Hornet, F/A-18.
We'd have to finance it independently. The home market doesn't need it as much, the SH will be complemented by the F-35C in USN service.

I am sure, but since this is an embryonic topic as of now ..........

However, USN seems to be looking for 40 odd planes (granted the Super Hornets), then there is Kuwait and Canada. So, there is potential. Not sure how many India would be interested in (no matter which craft is selected). I would estimate a potential, back-of-the-envelope demand of some 150-200 frames. Super or Advanced is a question.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Feb 2016 09:34

Rafale and F/A-18 - The Right Way Forward
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... y-forward/

The MMRCA deal and its subsequent avatar in the form of an off-the-shelf purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets have been making news for a long time now. Of late, there have been a lot of contradicting statements by the defence minister, the Air Force chief, representatives of Dassault – the makers of the much talked about fighter, and other stakeholders about the outcome of the price
negotiations. But, even after all this hype, one would wonder whether the government is doing the right thingby opting for the 36 fighters (2 squadrons) of the seemingly exorbitantly expensive Rafale, with a possible additional order for 18 fighters.The high cost doesn’t mean that the Rafale is a bad choice. It is indeed a good choice going by the technical evaluation that the IAF had conducted. One
parameter that sets the Rafale apart from other contemporary fighters is its high combat radius (> 1800 Kms). This would mean that the Rafale can be used as a long-range strike fighter which can carry its payload deep into hostile territory, a capability which can be matched by few fighter jets.
There have been demands from various quarters that the IAF should consider buying more LCAs than what is being planned for, to meet the MMRCA requirement. But, such demands cannot be justified from a strategic and economic perspective, since buying more fighters in the light combat category like the LCAs is meaningless, considering the fact that the MMRCA program was for a Medium combat
fighter – the Rafale being one. The LCA is not capable enough to evade the enemy’s air defence net ..and strike deep inside hostile territory. It is also not suited for the deep strike role because of its limited payload capacity. Although such rules may be overlooked at in times of war, they shouldn’t be ignored when making procurement decisions.That leaves the IAF with a few options to fill in the gaps which the trimmed Rafale deal would create in its squadron strength –
Though this leaves the IAF with only the F/A-18 Super Hornet as a choice, there are other important reasons why choosing the F/A-18s should be the right way forward.Firstly, there are arguments that the Super Hornet is basically an upgraded version of the older McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet. Factually this is not entirely true, since the Super Hornet is a completely redesigned new fighter with some commonality with the older F/A-18. The Super Hornet started flying in in the mid-90s and has since been flying with multiple Air forces and Navies around the world. The unit cost of the F/A-18 Super Hornet will also be much lesser than the Rafales.The second and the most important reason are the engines. Boeing has offered to setup an entire assembly line for the F/A-18s in India. And if this means that even the engines for the F/A-18s will be manufactured in India, which will be a very good value proposition.This is because the General Electric F-414 engines that are used by the F/A-18 Super Hornets will also power the Tejas Mk2 which is now under development. If the engines are made in India, this will benefit both the Super Hornets and the LCA program and there will also be the added benefit of availability of life cycle support within India for the engines for both the fighters. This would mean huge cost savings, since a single fighter jet uses 3.5 engines over its lifetime on an aver ..Assuming that the Indian Air Force would decide to procure around 100 twin-engined F/A-18s and that both the IAF and the Navy will eventually buy around 120 plus single-engined LCA Mk2 fighters, the demand will be for a minimum of 1000 GE F-414 jet engines throughout the lifetime of both the fighters – providing economies of scale.Thirdly, under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI), which is the name of the framework for Indo-US defence co-operation, joint development of a jet engine is also being discussed. That the U.S has reportedly offered to rewrite its laws so that India could gain access to classified technical information related to the GE F414 jet engines, is a lucrative offer which cannot be ignored. There will be consequences of allying with the U.S in such a way and those will have to factored in...Apparently, GE is keen to work with the DRDO in this project, which would mean that India can use these up rated engines for powering it’s futuristic Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). If such a co-operation fructifies, the F/A-18s, LCA Mk2 and the AMCA programs will mutually benefit from each other because of engine commonality. The Indian Navy and the Air Force will have a combined requirement of around 250 or more twin-engined AMCAs. This would mean an additional requirement of more than 1500 F-414 engines.According to the soon-to-be-released Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP – 2016), the defence ministry will be choosing an Indian private company as the strategic development partner for aero engines. The Ministry of Defence will have to be prudent enough while implementing its policies and decisions. This will ensure that India’s indigenous defence industry gets a much needed shot in the arm.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Feb 2016 10:02

There was a report quote posted about the SH's 500km combat radius as a limiting factor for the USN vis-à-vis China. I don't now how that fares with the IAF.The F-35 negotiations will take endless years to fructify,even as dev. of the aircraft has yet to be completed.The US has too many tech-safety clauses for a non-mil ally like India to agree upon.It will never be "made in India" as envisaged.Catch the US handing over to us full TOT on stealth.They haven't even great ally Japan the F-22!

Acquiring the Gripen will not finish off the LCA.On the other hand it may help dev. of a Mk-2 whatever faster,with some common component inputs apart from weaponry.300-400 LCA type fighters are required to replace the MIG-21s and MIG-27s . One could easily have 150-200 of both types,with the prospect of exports too. All other aircraft barring the MIG-29/35 are far more expensive. F-16s and F-18s belong to a dying generation and even US extras are merely stop-gap acquisitions until F-35 woes are sorted out.Who wants someone's "cast-offs"?

If the Typhoon can meet the indicated price that India has offered for the Rafale,it stands a chance to sneak in.at least here we have a fighter a generation older than the aging Yanqui birds.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Feb 2016 11:44

If Rafale deal does not go through the teens , Typhoon , Gripen and Mig are fancieng their chances but MOD would settled down with more MKI and Tejas as part of their Plan B

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 24 Feb 2016 12:17

ramana wrote:
Austin wrote:ramana what do you suggest which plane we should/should not opt for ?
What ever NaMo decides based on available inputs.

Ramanaji, my answer would have been

"This being a G-G deal aimed at building Indian MIC, any twin-engine-jet manufacturer who agrees to partner HAL for both the Assembly lines of the jet in contention and a second production line for LCA - and, whose Tier-1 vendor list is majorly, if not exclusively, from the Indian Private Ltd or JV entities".

Sadly that would mean only Dassault, BAe and Boeing* for the race - and if LM proposes a JSF, then let there be a 6mth-window provided to IAF to evaluate it against the same set of requirements that they had earlier evaluated the MMRCA contenders while the contract negotiation with ALL of the above continues in parallel.

*Note: As MiG-35s will not be considered from the Geo-political insurance angle.

But then again, if wishes were horses ...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Feb 2016 23:52

maitya, I am known for my short answers.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Feb 2016 09:16

Strange Rafale Deal and Other Murky Acquisitions

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 25 Feb 2016 11:35

Purely from a budgetary perspective, the chances of the deal being signed this year look slim. There are too many budgetary priorities that are going to ensure there's no extra $7-11 billion to spare.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 27 Feb 2016 03:29

Nowhere is the concept of Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) more starkly demonstrated than in the Rafale purchase saga. The reason the Russians have staying power in Syria is because of PPP and the fact that 100% of their arms and munitions are produced at THEIR cost/price. There is no clearer lesson for India's DPSUs i.e. to produce 100% or close to 100% of arms and munitions in country. Otherwise the wars that India can fight will forever be controlled by other nations, if for no other reason than the high cost on a PPP basis of imported weapons and munitions.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Feb 2016 10:02

Suraj wrote:Purely from a budgetary perspective, the chances of the deal being signed this year look slim. There are too many budgetary priorities that are going to ensure there's no extra $7-11 billion to spare.

They would be paying in tranches over many years though some initial payment of decent sum would be made.

I believe the Rafale deal will go through as they these two squadron will serve the strategic purpose.

Also most of the issues we see with MMRCA is purely our problem based on flawed procurement process , never ending trials and never ending discussions , Pretty much Unique Indian problem reflected in other deals too

astal · Post by **astal** » 27 Feb 2016 10:33

The article linked by Austin looks like a complete hatchet job.

The reason for the current set of problems is that Dassault wanted to do a repeat of the Scorpene con. They quoted a low price for the L1 tender and performed a bait and switch after winning the deal.

We have all known for years that the tender was to build the first two squadrons in France and the rest in India by TOT. Dassault thought they could get away with nominal TOT, charge excessively for weapons integration and simply refuse to integrate Russian weapons.

Now that Parrikar is holding their feet to the fire, Dassault is quoting ridiculous prices. All MMRCA contenders would be too expenaive to buy in the numbers that India needa. In fact it is time to end this import and TOT charade.

The only thing left now is for the defence minister to convince IAF that the way to get reasonably capable aircraft in the numbers we need, is to build them ourselves. Step by step from LCA mk1 to LCA mk2 to AMCA.

The other end of the puzzle is to increase funding so instead of Mr P Subramanian bragging that LCA is the least expensive aircraft, his successor can brag that it delivers the capabilities IAF needs in a timely manner. For that we need to stop penny pinching and handing pounds to the French, Russians, Americans, Swede's or assorted Euros.

member_29350 · Post by **member_29350** » 27 Feb 2016 11:45

At this stage, just putting in a RFP for another 40 (apart from the current feeler for 40) of the MKI, should make the French a bit antsy. That is the only leverage we have.

Or

Get in serious talks with Boeing over Hornets; everybody gets the feels whether we are serious about Rafales or any western aircraft. Keep everyone guessing

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Feb 2016 12:19

If we get the Hornet we should angle for the Growler with NGJ. Otherwise, no deal.

The AN/APG-79 + AMRAAM D should offer some solace for IAF vs PLAAF.

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Feb 2016 15:18

^^^

The IAF needs dedicated EW aircraft like the F-18 Growler. All the recent major wars that the West has fought have had US EW/SEAD assets providing cover to its allies. Without that support in Operation Desert Storm (Iraq) and Operation Deliberate Force (Balkans), the allies would have probably lost a lot of aircraft than the handful it ended up losing. If the IAF needs to spend $10 billion for 36 aircraft, IMO it should go for Growlers. In my mind, that is the most essential force multiplier missing from its fleet and which is absolutely necessary against advanced air defenses, especially in the opening days of the war. Either that or have stealthy platforms or fight enemies without credible air defenses.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Mar 2016 04:28

The Next Generation Jammer is protected and is not going to be exported unless a version is specifically created for such a role. A few weeks ago, this was asked specifically to the man running the program vis-a-vis Australia and he said that the Australians would have to pay for a version to be developed that is exportable. It is a niche product that would come at a cost unacceptable to an export customer even if multiple bunched together.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 03 Mar 2016 04:44

sivaramn wrote:... Keep everyone guessing

We've kept everyone (vendors, IAF, BRF) guessing since what 2001? So what another few or ten years of confusion and lack of direction.

I guess when one does not know where one wants to go, any road will get you there.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Mar 2016 08:23

We can get a non-stealthier AMCA ahead in time, and phased skin approach would be ideal.

the core blocker is the engine dev

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2016 10:36

Considering the very elaborate and long drawn out process for Aircraft selection , Its unlikely we would see any aircraft beyond Rafael to get into the picture even if this means some months of more negotiation and haggling over price acceptable to both parties.

There is no guarantee the next vendor be it SAAB , Boeing or xyz wont face the same problem and that would be another long drawn out process the real game starts when you are at the negotiating table and MOD nego has always been long one for any procurement.

Looking at the budget does not inspire confidence over the low number , 90 % of Capex is spent on payments for existing programs that was signed , with this budget its debatable even if they can fund existing indiginous program like Tejas much less importing a new type.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2016 16:52

Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget

New Delhi:
Highlights

When the Rafale fighter deal with France is inked later this year, the Ministry of Defence or MoD will have to pay nearly Rs. 6000 crore for it, which is roughly one-tenth of the total cost of the deal, top Ministry officials told NDTV.

"I am not unduly worried," a top a Ministry official told NDTV, adding, "out of box thinking and imaginative accounting will see us through."

Although, final price negotiations are still on, the Rafale purchase deal is likely to cost India about Rs. 60,000 crore.

The Ministry of Defence has a little above Rs. 80,000 crore to pay for new acquisition this financial year out of its total budget of about Rs. 2,50,000 crore.

Of the Rs. 80,000 crore, three-fourth will have to be set aside for "committed liabilities" - the MoD's phrase for payments to be made for previous purchases.

Sources told NDTV that for the financial year 2014-15's purchases, Rs. 66,000 crore is still being paid for.

In the current financial year, India signed up to purchase defence hardware worth Rs. 44,000 crore. This includes two additional Airborne Warning And Control Systems ( AWAC) for the Indian Air Force. Also, And, it expects to ink deals for purchases of about another Rs. 15,000 crore by month-end.

The UPA Government in 2013-14 signed for purchases worth Rs. 37,000 crore which the Modi Government paid for in the last two years.

In an effort to better manage funds, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has asked the three forces to re-evaluate 342 cases of pending purchases - some even a decade old - worth Rs. 509 lakh crore.

"Much of these proposed purchases are of technology which is obsolete now and can be cancelled, reducing demand on the available resources," the officer added.

For the Rafale acquisition, to be able to pay in installments is the big relief for the MoD. "We will have just enough to pay the first installment given the current allocation," the officer said.

srai · Post by **srai** » 03 Mar 2016 19:22

^^^

Doing some simple calculation, Rs 6000 crore would only get you around 3 Rafales @ Rs 1,667 crore each [Rs 60,000 / 36]. "Committed liabilities" for the next 8 years would sky rocket with Rafale acquisition. Show me the money

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 03 Mar 2016 19:32

It is time for the North/South Block babudom to put their legendary time wasting skills into practice and bore the french with never ending rounds of negotiations.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Mar 2016 19:38

What else do you think they have been doing since they opened the bid in 4 years ago ? Lots of chai-biscoot and Paris tours

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Mar 2016 19:40

Dont Worry About the Money , RBI has Printing Press

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Mar 2016 20:24

Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget
Although, final price negotiations are still on, the Rafale purchase deal is likely to cost India about Rs. 60,000 crore.

About Rs 60,000 crore or €8 billion is what we're willing to pay. Whether Dassault will accept that figure, remains to be seen.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Mar 2016 22:04

srai wrote:^^^

Doing some simple calculation, Rs 6000 crore would only get you around 3 Rafales @ Rs 1,667 crore each [Rs 60,000 / 36]. "Committed liabilities" for the next 8 years would sky rocket with Rafale acquisition. Show me the money

The Rs. 6000 crore is for long lead items that Dassault has to purchase for building the 36 planes. Doesn't mean you get three planes!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 04 Mar 2016 00:06

^^^ The french will not go down on the prices and give any major discount to us as doing the same will jeopardize the contracts that they have finalized with UAE and Qatar. The best India can hope (if it is desperate for the Rafales) is to pay the prize they are asking and get significant TOT in other 'strategic items'

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 04 Mar 2016 00:13

Deal cancel.paisa nathi.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Mar 2016 00:59

Vipul ,May be early on. But looks like they don't have anything to sell.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 04 Mar 2016 04:27

Ramanaji, what about Nuclear propulsion and Engine tech?

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Mar 2016 06:02

ramana wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

Doing some simple calculation, Rs 6000 crore would only get you around 3 Rafales @ Rs 1,667 crore each [Rs 60,000 / 36]. "Committed liabilities" for the next 8 years would sky rocket with Rafale acquisition. Show me the money

The Rs. 6000 crore is for long lead items that Dassault has to purchase for building the 36 planes. Doesn't mean you get three planes!

Yes. My post was more trying to show the huge costs involved going forward ... when the GoI is struggling to come up with Rs 6000 crore only and the total cost is Rs 60,000 crore!

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 04 Mar 2016 07:52

Viv S wrote:Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget
Although, final price negotiations are still on, the Rafale purchase deal is likely to cost India about Rs. 60,000 crore.

I think all the defense acquisition occur on installment basis only

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Mar 2016 08:27

SajeevJino wrote:
Viv S wrote:Rafale On Instalments Is The Answer To Defence Ministry's Tight Budget
Although, final price negotiations are still on, the Rafale purchase deal is likely to cost India about Rs. 60,000 crore.
I think all the defense acquisition occur on installment basis only

Yes. Just like deliveries don't happen all at one time or produced all in one day, payments are also the same. You pay some initial deposit(s) (usually a percentage of the overall deal) upfront and then ongoing payments either on delivery or pre-delivery (i.e. plane ready but if no payment then they won't ship it). Then there are other costs such as ongoing payments for LCC package for per year support or base infrastructure setup fees.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2016 08:39

deleted

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2016 08:46

*** Deleted **********

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 04 Mar 2016 08:54

But why in the raffle thread? This is where we reveal lottery ticket numbers, 8B, 16 in, 18 out, 36 off 126 etc. Dont Ford auto rickshaws belong in the aitomotive section?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Mar 2016 09:04

Shreeman wrote:But why in the raffle thread? This is where we reveal lottery ticket numbers, 8B, 16 in, 18 out, 36 off 126 etc. Dont Ford auto rickshaws belong in the aitomotive section?

Just got posted on wrong thread , Mistake

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Mar 2016 21:49

I think the lca 2 as well as the amca are tightly tied to the GE 414 hence the push towards the shornet. It will be the intermediate second fighter line with the additional benefit of getting the private sector competent in aerospace. Not to mention the chances of putting it on the vishal. I'm guessing it will be built in numbers till about 2035 when the amca comes into its own. Probably replace all the jags. So the iaf will continue to be a zoo for the near to midterm...2050...

Rafale - 36
LCA. -200
MKI - 300
FGFA - 126
AMCA -126
Shornet -126

55 sqds by 2040-50 with mki being replaced by amca or fgfa

arun · Post by **arun** » 05 Mar 2016 09:49

I am a tough negotiator, want best price for Rafale jets: Parrikar : HT

Meanwhile;

Defence spending slips when NDA is in power, Rs 11,595 crore unspent : ET

Indian Air Force Has Only 32 Squadrons - Lowest In A Decade : NDTV

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 05 Mar 2016 10:38

^^^ arun ji, a part of defence spending drop and budget drop could be explained by the news of US$ 3 billion discovered unspent in a US account. My guess, I may be wrong.