IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Feb 2016 07:46

Add the base year adjustment to the delivery dates, which I think is around 3.5% per annum with Indian Contracts and you get USD 300 Million per puppy "after reduction". The original price seems to be around USD 400-450 Million per aircraft.No doubt that some Brass only finds Rafale to be super Gen while everything else is 3 legged Pig.

Just imagine 10 LCA for one Rafale or

4 Su-30MKI for One Rafale or

2 Su + 4 LCA for One Rafale or

1 PAKFA + 2 Su + 2 LCA for One Rafale

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Feb 2016 07:48

thats the cost of C17

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Feb 2016 09:57

GYan,I like that last option v.much.We need to send the same to the PM and DM!

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 12 Feb 2016 20:52

PAKFA may not be any cheaper than Rafale, with the latest news about the number of just 60, it may cost around $250M.
Only benefit would be if India has IP to make whatever modification it wants to the plane without going back to Russia for permission.

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 12 Feb 2016 21:26

Ideal situation would be to get the Pakfa and incorporate desi french and Isreali tech in it

This is a wet dream but if we could get a western engine to power the russian beauty, (well dream on)

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Feb 2016 21:40

FGFA is costly due to super specifications of IAF. PAKFA might run much much cheaper

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Feb 2016 21:40

FGFA is costly due to super specifications of IAF. PAKFA might run much much cheaper

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Feb 2016 23:38

the worst fears are already well known.. why is that NDA struggling to just shunt the whole deal and put an end to this never enabling saga?

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 13 Feb 2016 18:01

sooraj wrote:
However, the defence ministry under Manohar Parrikar is expected to further hammer down the cost by opting out of unnecessary or what are called “over-specified” add-ons in Rafale fighters as per the initial MMRCA contract.

This bothers me. The price is so expensive and its still a cut back version.

habal · Post by **habal** » 13 Feb 2016 20:46

I am more or less convinced that there is other deal behind cover of Rafale. Like the Chinese order 35 Su-35 from Russia.
We order 35 rafale from France.
connect the dots.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Feb 2016 22:38

We ordered 36. Theory falls flat.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2016 04:48

MANNY K wrote:This bothers me. The price is so expensive and its still a cut back version.

We are basically screwing ourselves the same way we did with the Mirage 2000 procurement. We took the H version, with the RDM radar while FAF standardized on the C version with the RDI radar which was far more advanced.

Now we'll be stuck with an IAF specific Rafale which is not even as sophisticated as the standard French F3R OR has India specific modifications.

BTW Kartik, your interview with Cdr Nagraj was so prescient.

viewtopic.php?p=1795662#p1795662

- Said how the LCA is designed as per the Test Pilot’s recommendations- whatever they want, ADA/HAL give it to them. He said let the IAF get the Rafale and then ask for these small changes and then they’ll figure out just how hard it is to get anything they want. On the N-LCA, we can integrate whatever we want, and for the entire lifetime of the fighter. Easier upgrades will be available since everything is known about the aircraft to the designers

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2016 07:14

habal wrote:I am more or less convinced that there is other deal behind cover of Rafale. Like the Chinese order 35 Su-35 from Russia.
We order 35 rafale from France.
connect the dots.

My views is somewhat similar to yours but I see less of a mystery. Every little component is being negotiated to try and fit it to a deal where India and France both benefit in the long term.

Frankly I see too much discussion about cost with very few people pointing out that no one seems to know exactly what is being paid for. As a crude example - my late father had bought a new Premier Padmini for Rs 18,000 in 1978. Over its lifetime he and later I must have spent about 10 lakhs - or a million. So what was the cost of the car? 18,000? Or 1 million?

But I do agree to the point made above that it will ne next to impossible to get little tweaks done the way things can be done with LCA

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 14 Feb 2016 14:14

Well I don't understand this govt to govt deal fracas
On one hand everyone says it will be a govt to govt deal

On the other hand there are reports that the french govt is not ready to stand guarantee the deal they will only supervise it. That is utter nonsense

If it is govt to govt deal then french govt cannot be a bystander or supervisor they have to be a party to the deal

U think on this point too they are taking us for a ride and the french govt can simply wash its hands off when in future if the dasault backtracks or tires to change some terms of the deal by either delay or other tactics

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Feb 2016 17:25

So, now they will cut back on state-of-art, but get what money can buy. But, we HAVE TO BUY RAFALE. Beats me!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Feb 2016 17:56

Read it completely

Fighters for the IAF: Creating paths to a dead-end
http://www.stratpost.com/fighters-for-t ... a-dead-end

member_28985 · Post by **member_28985** » 14 Feb 2016 18:26

250 Million $ for 1 plane, just imagine what will happen if one of these crashes, that all planes will eventually crash one time or the other in its lifetime,

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 14 Feb 2016 19:57

The current strategy of arming IAF is going has no other way but to lead to dead end..

Given that planners are anything but stupid, but guided by bias and vested interest, with national interest as a secondary objective, albeit all action will be justified as national interest first. That is not to say all the planners are like it, there is always 80-20 rule with 80 belonging to self interest group and 20 belonging thinking beyond self interest that is nations interest.

IAF planners reliance on imported stuff only, asking for better than the best , hedging against eastern and western imports, by buying 2 type of each class, all multi role capable, maintaining types that no other sensible air force does, is not sustainable in short or long term. The imported lobby have them by the balls because they know their interest in imported stuff also their vested interest to line the pocket of their political masters, self and near and dear ones. This is fact, refuting it will gazillion analysis will not change it.

The only sustainable and strengthening path is higher level of indigenization controlling the design IP so quicker jugaad can be applied when needed. Therefore HTT,IJT,LCA,Dhruv,LCH,LUH, AMCA is the only path. They should be inducted once they have proven 80% of the reasonable design goal (not based on better than the best based on the brochure), the pursuit for excellence can continue in increments beyond 100 if possible. But expecting 100% of design and brochure based goal for acceptance is shooting oneself, serves only the import lobby. Not even the designers of this plane and their country air force even pursue it, with all the technological talent at their disposal.

In this respect the best path is to design a working prototype of each class and integrate what you want at your own pace. As long as you know the design you can change the product, and make your own with that specification.

I loved Air force all my life, based on what I have learned and their effort in scuttling indigenous effort, it is now my most hated arm of the armed forces.

I hope LCA-MK1A, LCA-MKII, AMCA and a class of heavy fighter designed by India is a reality in my life, as long as India owns the design, I am sure our industry will be able to make the product and component with the feature, this is a critical time to hand hole, encourage and establish them both public and private.

Wishing that the current imported strategy ends with the limited purchase of Rafale and Pakfa. These should be the last imported fighters we should procure for our own term benefit. All other gordian knot must be cut.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Feb 2016 17:29

Boeing's Message To PM Modi: Remember We're 97 Billion Dollars Big

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/boeings- ... eststories

GeorgeWelch · Post by **GeorgeWelch** » 16 Feb 2016 20:10

ragupta wrote:Wishing that the current imported strategy ends with the limited purchase of Rafale and Pakfa.

What good is a limited purchase of Rafale?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Feb 2016 23:06

Austin wrote:Boeing's Message To PM Modi: Remember We're 97 Billion Dollars Big

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/boeings- ... eststories

India needs a veto on US arms to TSP

That is real need.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 16 Feb 2016 23:11

Interesting quote from the last story:

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/boeings- ... eststories

"If India wants to jump start an aerospace economy, do you want to do that with Dassault -- that's about a $5 billion company -- or do you want to do that with Boeing, which is a $97 billion aerospace company?" Jeff Kohler, vice president of global sales for Boeing's defense unit, said in an interview on Monday in Singapore.

Makes a lot of sense too!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2016 00:02

^^

We want to partner with a company that will treat us a partner and be able to bring to the table what we don't have and want. Who cares how big you are if you won't really partner. That goes for everyone.

We should explore partnership with brazil and other countries that want to kick start their areo industry as well, where R&D can be a joint function and so can production. Russia would have been ideal, but they neither have the long term vision nor the desire to really play partners. Their actions and words are on different planes. They think they can still keep an edge even 20 years out with their current level of instate funding and they can milk others to keep that going.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 17 Feb 2016 01:06

Recently a senior consultant from my company went to Paris for a 3 month stint to help out our shiny new office (read company) build a prototype solution after we bagged the tender.
This person is French and has not lived in France for the 15 years. The reason he went was he an expert in the solution and the french knowledge would help him whip up the local employees in shape to produce the solution.

He worked with mainly French folks and when he came back I was surprised to learn the following from him.
Now remember he is a Parisian himself

1. The French are lazy
2. They have a committee for everything including a committee to decide who will be in the meeting group that will meet to decide who will work on the solution
3. They spend over 1.5 hours on lunch easily without feeling guilty
4. They are adept to frustrate their customer and entrap at the same time with lack of progress and marvellous expectations.

All of this left me shivering as I thought about Dassault and Rafel.
Good Luck to us... the only good point that might prove my friend wrong is the Mirage 2000 deal. That went well, I hope this also goes well.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 17 Feb 2016 01:22

We're not made of money. At $300 million apiece, there won't be much left in our yearly defense budgets for the SU-30MKI or LCA programmes. They'll be hobbled for years to come. Which was probably the plan all along.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Feb 2016 02:21

Not really a super hornet fan but the international version that is on offer, is intriguing. Has a prototype actually flown of this model...? The one with the stealth pod and epe 12.5 ton engines, would have a stunning twr. Question is, Will the extra thrust compensate for the suboptimal fast jet design.. what with pylons canted outwards and the almost straight wing.

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Feb 2016 03:12

Khalsa wrote:Recently a senior consultant from my company went to Paris for a 3 month stint to help out our shiny new office (read company) build a prototype solution after we bagged the tender.
This person is French and has not lived in France for the 15 years. The reason he went was he an expert in the solution and the french knowledge would help him whip up the local employees in shape to produce the solution.

He worked with mainly French folks and when he came back I was surprised to learn the following from him.
Now remember he is a Parisian himself

1. The French are lazy
2. They have a committee for everything including a committee to decide who will be in the meeting group that will meet to decide who will work on the solution
3. They spend over 1.5 hours on lunch easily without feeling guilty
4. They are adept to frustrate their customer and entrap at the same time with lack of progress and marvellous expectations.

All of this left me shivering as I thought about Dassault and Rafel.
Good Luck to us... the only good point that might prove my friend wrong is the Mirage 2000 deal. That went well, I hope this also goes well.

French are looking to recoup Rafale R&D and fund R&D for their next gen design in Neuron. It seems India is willing to do so at all costs

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 17 Feb 2016 04:06

For the years of cheering that we did for this platform, it seems like a winners curse since the announcement of Rafale winning. I hope they dump this craft and call it a mistake and just add other existing types into the system. The market is slowing down pretty rapidly, now is not the time to make commitment for 10 billion dollars for 36 toys. Thats like 3 carriers with a sqaudron each of NLCA/Mig-29K or like 400 LCA's @27.5 million. A good one to one replacement for Mig-21s.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2016 04:29

Well, As The World Turns.

First (someone had posted this, I guess in another thread):

Make in India: In 10 years, India will become biggest production base for SAAB, says Hakan Buskhe

Hindi to become 2nd language in Sweden.

and, then .........................

Feb 15, 2016 :: Amid Pakistan row, India considers proposal to manufacture F-16 fighter jets under 'Make in India'

Oh, why not. India needs a few million jobs.

NEW DELHI: Even as controversy has erupted on the transfer of eight F 16s to Pakistan by the US, Delhi has been considering a proposal to manufacture the fighter jets under the 'Make in India' initiative.

In several recent meetings, including a high-level interaction in November last year in Washington, the aircraft have been offered for local production - both to meet Indian requirements and for exports

The Lockheed Martin (LM) manufactured F 16 is one of the several fighters that has been proposed to be manufactured in India and is being actively pushed by Washington, senior officials told ET. It is also understood that LM had even raised the possibility of local manufacture during the meeting of one of its top executives with Prime Minister Narendra Modi last year.

...........................................

Besides the F/A 18 Super Hornet and the F 16IN Super Viper, the Indian government is considering at least two more proposals to make fighter jets in India. One offer on the table is from Sweden's SAAB to transfer the Gripen fighter line to India. Another is a proposal by Airbus to create a 'Eurofighter City' in India that would produce its Eurofighter jet and generate thousands of jobs.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Feb 2016 07:05

Between the teens, I'd prefer the super hornet international to the solah. Would be much more interesting to see some valuable parts of the 35 on offer for production though..

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Feb 2016 07:07

Now that the tejas mk1a looks good, all sorts of noises are coming out. Gripen could be a deathnell for the tejas. Euro fritter is the best of the lot imho

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Feb 2016 07:13

None of those proposals are viable. At the end of the day, they will all cost a whole lot of money. How much would depend on what India wants included like ToT, customization, weapons, LCC, infrastructure, training and offsets. Everyone will jack up price when exclusive negotiations begin and the whole tamasha will drag on for another decade. India expects a lot and it is not going to get it cheaply from foreigners.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 17 Feb 2016 09:01

Yes, at the end of the day all of these offers are unaffordable

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2016 10:09

The best option now is to bite to bullet go for 36 Rafale and invest money in Tejas Mk2 and Su-30MKI/Super MKI program , Atleast this is a good opportunity to standardise the IAF fleet and opt for maximum indiginisation of Fleet with Indian System.

We have around 100 plus upgraded fleet of M2K and 29 under works , plus another 6 Squadron of Jags planned under upgrade , both can go on for next 20-25 years , till then we will have our own AMCA and FGFA

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 17 Feb 2016 11:04

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 248084.ece
------------------
" India and France are in advanced stage of talks to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets. This fighter aircraft will likely be other than the Rafale.

“Under the Make in India process we may have one or two more jet fighter plants in India by the private sector,” Mr. Parrikar said on Tuesday on the sidelines of a job creation summit organised by Wadhwani Foundation.

He said that several proposals are under consideration and “through proper process we may select them to make in India.”

While emphasising that there will be at least one or two fighter jets that may be selected, Mr. Parrikar said a decision is likely to be taken by year end
---------

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Feb 2016 11:26

MP has confirmed what we've known,that the pvt. sector will take up HAL's slack.So some western fighter will be manufactured locally.How this will fit in with our "grand design" for the IAF/nation's fututre defence strategy is anyone's guess.Right now everything is terribly ad hoc with pvt. players like the "R Co." wanting to make everything from fighters to N-subs to bullets!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 17 Feb 2016 14:22

NRao wrote:Well, As The World Turns.

First (someone had posted this, I guess in another thread):

Make in India: In 10 years, India will become biggest production base for SAAB, says Hakan Buskhe

Hindi to become 2nd language in Sweden.

and, then .........................

Feb 15, 2016 :: Amid Pakistan row, India considers proposal to manufacture F-16 fighter jets under 'Make in India'

Oh, why not. India needs a few million jobs.

Lets manufacture the F-16 in India and export them to Pakistan. With low cost manufacturing in India I am sure Pakis can afford few more of those.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 17 Feb 2016 18:49

India likely to select fighter plane under 'Make in India' by year-end: Manohar Parrikar.

He said that there may be one or two more jet fighter plants, either operational or in the process of being set up, in India in the next three years or so.

Asked if this meant HAL will set up more plants, Parrikar said, It is private sector which will be required to supply to the air force. We need fighters. We may encourage...there are proposals." Parrikar said yesterday through "proper process", by year end "we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don't commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also."

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Feb 2016 20:13

Vipul wrote:India likely to select fighter plane under 'Make in India' by year-end: Manohar Parrikar.

He said that there may be one or two more jet fighter plants, either operational or in the process of being set up, in India in the next three years or so.

Asked if this meant HAL will set up more plants, Parrikar said, It is private sector which will be required to supply to the air force. We need fighters. We may encourage...there are proposals." Parrikar said yesterday through "proper process", by year end "we might select few aircraft to Make in India. Which one? I don't commit. But there will be at least one, may be two also."

Here is a Data point, one that is probably causing delays. Good one I would say, if true.

Parrikar also made it clear that 'Make in India' does not mean just assembly of equipment but manufacturing through transfer of technology.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Feb 2016 20:30

He said "aircraft" which may not mean additional types of fighter jets, can be civilian transport aircraft also.