IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Nov 2015 03:59

I agree. I wish the India and Rafale the very best. Unfortunately, in my opinion, their paths do not intersect.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 13 Nov 2015 15:06

Viv S wrote:I'm fervently praying it happens. That'll push India to fourth place in the delivery schedule and hopefully provide the MoD with the final incentive to conclusively kill the deal. And with a 100+ orders on the books, France will probably be more willing to let this one slide without a racket.

Me hoping for the big Rafale export victory.. how's that for irony, eh Arthuro?

Not sure the "fourth place" is a relevant argument as Dassault is currently making the necessary investment to deliver on time every customers.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2015/10 ... rafale.php

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Nov 2015 21:35

Viv S wrote:
arthuro wrote:According to UAE's air force commander general Ibrahim Nasser al Alaoui, its government is in the very final stage of negotiation with Dassault to acquire not less than 60 rafales.

http://fr.reuters.com/article/frEuroRpt ... WH20151111
I'm fervently praying it happens. That'll push India to fourth place in the delivery schedule and hopefully provide the MoD with the final incentive to conclusively kill the deal. And with a 100+ orders on the books, France will probably be more willing to let this one slide without a racket.

Me hoping for the big Rafale export victory.. how's that for irony, eh Arthuro?

Sooner this happens, the better. Mayhaps that will also make the UAE Mirage 2000-9s available for India to buy...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Nov 2015 17:59

Rafale combat aircraft deal in final stages: Manohar Parrikar

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 18 Nov 2015 07:41

Austin wrote:Rafale combat aircraft deal in final stages: Manohar Parrikar

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Once again in final stages .. Is it really Parrikar said, or media has no other news about Air force

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Nov 2015 12:09

Compared to the Rafale's price a real bargain.Once could get 36 SU-35s for just $3.0B That's approx. half the price of one Raffy. To keep our advantage over the PLAAF,we will have little choice but to the finalise the acquisition of the FGFA and bring all 270+ MKIs to Super-Sukhoi std.

https://www.rt.com/news/322659-china-russia-su35-deal/

China buys 24 advanced Russian Su-35 warplanes in estimated $2bn landmark deal - report
Published time: 19 Nov, 2015 06:52
The Su-35 fighter. © Artem Zhitenev / Sputnik

China has signed a contract to buy 24 Sukhoi Su-35 multipurpose fighter jets from Russia, becoming the first foreign buyer of the advanced warplane, according to manufacturer Rostec. The deal, estimated to be worth $2 billion, is a significant boost to Russia’s arms exports.

“The long negotiation on the Su-35 sale to China has been completed. We have signed a contract,” Sergey Chemezov, the head of the Russian state-owned high-tech giant Rostec, told Kommersant business daily.

Chemezov didn’t disclose the details of the deal, but Kommersant cited sources in the Russian arms industry as saying that China had purchased 24 Su-35s at a price of about $83 million each.

The Su-35 (designated Flanker-E+, not to be confused with the Su-27M, which used to be called the same name before its discontinuation) is a long-range “4++ generation” fighter jet. It is armed with an internal 30mm cannon and has 12 hardpoints with a combined capacity of 8,000 kg, compatible with a wide range of unguided and guided missiles and bombs.

The Russian armed forces are the primary operator of the aircraft, with 36 series Su-35s currently in their possession and more to be produced. China first showed its interest in buying Su-35s in 2008 during the Airshow China international expo. Formal negotiations started in 2011.

According to Kommersant, the deal does not involve domestic production of Su-35s in China, a condition usually desired by Beijing due to its strategic goal of producing an entire range of the weapons it uses on its own territory.

The deal would ensure Chinese Air Force superiority in the region amid brewing conflicts with other nations, such as the Philippines and Japan, over territorial disputes. China’s own production capabilities of advanced warplanes, including the J-11, are not yet sufficient to maintain the necessary strength, according to Chinese media.

China is currently among the world’s top five buyers of Russian arms, restoring its position after a slowdown in late 2000s. Beijing buys advanced Russian jet engines, submarines and surface-to-air missiles, among other high-tech military items.

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 19 Nov 2015 13:20

True, adding 70-80 Super MKI or just off the shelf buy of 36-54 Su-35 still is better idea than buying the Rafale at this point. The above numbers can be wrapped up for around 5 billion, there is still 4-5 billion left for other purchases.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2015 05:36

So what happened to the 40 Su-30s for SFC?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 20 Nov 2015 05:50

Wow! That is a very good price for an exceptional fighter, probably the best fighter under stealth standard. Do I smell a Pakfa buy from India soon. While this is not the best news for India, the number is too small to make a real difference. Once the Super 30 upgrade goes into action, the Su-35 will be countered fighter for figther. Still, India should raise the issue and do some R&D so as to get a discount on important items from Russia.

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 21 Nov 2015 21:33

Cain Marko wrote:Wow! That is a very good price for an exceptional fighter, probably the best fighter under stealth standard. Do I smell a Pakfa buy from India soon. While this is not the best news for India, the number is too small to make a real difference. Once the Super 30 upgrade goes into action, the Su-35 will be countered fighter for figther. Still, India should raise the issue and do some R&D so as to get a discount on important items from Russia.

The significance of the deal is engine tech transfer and political relation between the Panda and bear. They are even making a wide body passenger plane together. Sorry OT....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Nov 2015 11:56

Raffy deal is sure to be sealed as M.Hollande is to be the chief guest at the Republic Day parade.It would be churlish of Mr.Modi to invite him and reject the Raffy.So M.Hollande will be welcomed in true Indian tradition and walk away with "gifts" of billions in Raffy prders from his generous hosts.Can't wait to see how much the :gift" costs!

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 22 Nov 2015 14:28

So 2 more months to go before the final deal is unveiled. Hollande would fly out with lot of goodies in his bag is my guess. Rafale, Add on scorpenes, Jaithapur, Some Indigo A320 are a given. More in pipeline could be TGV for diamond quadrilateral, Some JV in aerospace, Few Mistrals etc etc..

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 22 Nov 2015 18:18

With Russia soon to become a part of the anti west China/Paki axis and Uncle Sam's support being uncertain, India is ensuring that it has the French support with a UN Veto in future geo-strategic equations (Remembering Post Pokhran-II situation).

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Nov 2015 18:48

Did not see a realignment thread, perhaps need one:

Vipul wrote:With Russia soon to become a part of the anti west China/Paki axis and Uncle Sam's support being uncertain, India is ensuring that it has the French support with a UN Veto in future geo-strategic equations (Remembering Post Pokhran-II situation).

Old story.

World is realigning. India needs to be as neutral as possible. Everyone, without an exception, will need India in the future. I just do nto see anyone doing without India - SC seat or not, does not matter.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 Nov 2015 21:09

+1

Wrong thread, but...the recent incidents and rising levels of homeland readiness is drawing parallels to WW2. I heard German defense minister even calling it 'like' WW3. The sectarian angle of ISIS rise can have huge implications for India.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 22 Nov 2015 21:19

If Indian position is about maintaining status quo, what is realignment then? Russia itself has Veto power and is independent enough to give a damn about China/Paki axis. It is unkil and UK - the leaders of phree world - who need to be looked into for not giving total support to world's biggest democracy and that is the biggest scam, otherwise who cares about China/Paki axis IF unkil/UK could veto as well. UK is appealing the Chinese for investments and the unkil needs Pakis even more as usual under some excuse.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Nov 2015 09:57

BRF ahead of the curve again.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/h ... 906140.ece

Hollande’s takeaway will be Rafale deal

After an impasse over technicalities, India and France are working to finalise the agreement for the direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets before the visit of French President Francois Hollande to India as the chief guest of the next Republic Day parade here.

“Negotiations are in an advanced stage and both sides are working to reach an agreement before the visit,” a Defence Ministry official told The Hindu.

Last week, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the deal was “in the final stages of price negotiations” and issues such as the 50 per cent offset clause had “almost been sorted out”. The offset issue had been one of the major sticking points in the negotiations.

“The deal was announced at the highest level politically; so both sides want to make sure it is adhered to,” a senior official said.

During his visit to Paris in April, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the direct purchase through a government-to-government deal as quickly as possible in view of the “critical operational necessity” of the Air Force, sidestepping the original medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

However, negotiations by the high-powered committee set up to negotiate the terms and conditions for the deal and recommend a draft agreement hit a road block over the issue of offsets and changes in configuration sought by the Air Force.

Offset clause

Offset clause applies for defence deals worth over Rs. 300 crore under which companies are to invest 30 per cent of the value of the contract back in the country. For the MMRCA deal, the government had fixed it at 50 percent. In addition, the Air Force wanted some structural changes to the aircraft to incorporate the indigenously built “Astra” beyond visual range (BVR) missiles.

France insists that the cost of the deal would go up and delivery timelines delayed because of the offset clause and changes sought. Official sources said a workaround had now been agreed upon.

The Air Force urgently needs new fighter aircraft to arrest the depleting fighter strength as MiG-21s and -27s are phased out and induction of the indigenous light combat aircraft has been repeatedly delayed.

It is still unclear if the Defence Ministry intends to order additional Rafale jets over and above the 36 or how it intends to replace the MiGs. “As of now, we are talking about 36 [planes]. I am not saying that it means we are thinking of buying more. To upgrade the Air Force, we are preparing a road map. Once that road map is finalised and approved by the government, we will go ahead as per the road map,” Mr. Parrikar said recently.

The Air Force has said on several occasions that it requires at least six squadrons comprising 108 Rafale or similar planes to arrest the depleting force levels and maintain the combat edge with respect to China and Pakistan.

PS:France insists that the cost.... So we are going to pay and arm and a leg for just 36 Rafales,the price still a dark secret,but will inevitably be compared with the Russo-Sino deal for 24 SU-35s costing from official reports at just $2B,$83M a pop. Mr.Modi and the DM should ink the deal after his visit to Russia where he can examine other options to make up the IAF's planned force structure for the future,FGFAs,Super Sukhois,etc., and bargain with the French when M.Hollande visits next Jan. That way we may save valuable moolah.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Nov 2015 16:04

Philip wrote:Raffy deal is sure to be sealed as M.Hollande is to be the chief guest at the Republic Day parade.It would be churlish of Mr.Modi to invite him and reject the Raffy.So M.Hollande will be welcomed in true Indian tradition and walk away with "gifts" of billions in Raffy prders from his generous hosts.Can't wait to see how much the :gift" costs!

It reminds of those stories of royal families (queens and princesses and their army of maids) traveling abroad on a shopping spree and spending millions in "exclusive" stores. The tradition of Indian PM traveling abroad is no different. A visit to a rich/powerful country (i.e. US, Russia, UK, France, etc.) billions of dollars of wares are lined up for purchase using public money

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Nov 2015 22:30

Spoke to a bureaucrat in the MoD recently who indicated that there'd be a settlement one way or the other, in about a month's time. So deal is most likely to be signed during Hollande's visit.

Its clearly being driven by the PMO with neither the IAF nor the MoD enthusiastic about the arrangement in its current form. Pity really, since Modi could have given our guests contracts for several other things that would cause less damage to the military modernization effort, including a follow-on Scorpene contract and/or a contract for MRTTs.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Nov 2015 22:35

srai wrote:It reminds of those stories of royal families (queens and princesses and their army of maids) traveling abroad on a shopping spree and spending millions in "exclusive" stores. The tradition of Indian PM traveling abroad is no different. A visit to a rich/powerful country (i.e. US, Russia, UK, France, etc.) billions of dollars of wares are lined up for purchase using public money

Whether our leaders visit their country or their leaders visit our country, the end result is usually that they receive juicy govt contracts and we receive 'assurances' of investment by the businessmen in their entourage. Sad state of affairs really.

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 23 Nov 2015 23:02

vishvak wrote:If Indian position is about maintaining status quo, what is realignment then? Russia itself has Veto power and is independent enough to give a damn about China/Paki axis. It is unkil and UK - the leaders of phree world - who need to be looked into for not giving total support to world's biggest democracy and that is the biggest scam, otherwise who cares about China/Paki axis IF unkil/UK could veto as well. UK is appealing the Chinese for investments and the unkil needs Pakis even more as usual under some excuse.

There is no China/Paki axis, Pakis are nothing more than an insignificant poodle who can only bark but no bite, but the real thing that counts is the China/Russia axis and clearly they both complement each other strategically. Thus Russian pivot towards China note the billions $ worth of oil and gas agreements and the good deal the Chinese are getting on the SU-35 (or S 400) which are comparable in its capability to the Rafale in my opinion although its like comparing apple and oranges.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Nov 2015 00:02

So why are we not buying oil from Russia?
Here some links about Japan and Russia oil deals:
Russia walks thin line between Japan and China

Japan and China Battle for Russia's Oil and Gas

Japan, whose demand for oil is slowly falling because of anemic growth and a shift from manufacturing, came later to the game, making a serious alternative proposal only a year ago. But it has steadily sweetened its bid, while the financing of the Chinese plan remains fuzzy. Japan now is offering to put up $5 billion for pipeline construction and another $2 billion for oil field development, while holding out the prospect that a pipeline to the Sea of Japan could handle oil exports to America, too.
..
"Energy security, energy diversity, energy from across the Japan Sea is sufficiently important to move the Kurile Islands way down the list" of priorities, said Stephen O'Sullivan, head of oil and gas research at UFG, a Moscow-based investment bank.

Japan's 2015 crude imports from Russia may hit record high

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Nov 2015 00:18

So why are we not buying oil from Russia?

India has made Russia the center of that thread - O&G.

But two issues(?) are possibly a problem. First is that India is a low risk, high bargainer country. So, "deals" take a long time. As you can see Japan, etc move quickly and China has power and waits till the right moment to close deals.

Second, Russia is aware of Indian need for arms, so she is using that to bargain too. Outside of India Russia *really* has no one to help in that sector.

Will not be easy.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Nov 2015 00:25

We are not losing ANYTHING in buying oil from Russia since we are to buy oil anyways from somewhere. And I am not advocating more oil than requirements, oil depots build up for emergency, energy diversity/security. Nothing extra ordinary for it to be not easy, in fact we can just get same oil from Japan pipeline if allowed to by paying a share or something similar. Japan is offering to contribute for development of oil fields too.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Nov 2015 00:32

vishvak wrote:So why are we not buying oil from Russia?

Buying oil from Russia, delivered how? Via China driven/piped across the Himalayas? Or shipped south from Siberia? Across the Sea of Japan -> East China Sea -> South China Sea ->Malacca Strait -> Andaman Sea -> Bay of Bengal.

How do you expect that to be cost competitive with crude dispatched from Chabahar or Dammam or Abu Dhabi?

Here some links about Japan and Russia oil deals:

Japan and Russia are neighbours. India and Russia in contrast are relatively distant countries.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Nov 2015 07:56

vishvak wrote:We are not losing ANYTHING in buying oil from Russia since we are to buy oil anyways from somewhere. And I am not advocating more oil than requirements, oil depots build up for emergency, energy diversity/security. Nothing extra ordinary for it to be not easy, in fact we can just get same oil from Japan pipeline if allowed to by paying a share or something similar. Japan is offering to contribute for development of oil fields too.

You need refineries to process high grade/low sulpher Ural/ESPO blend , most of our refineries are designed around blending high sulpher ME light crude , its not easy to change crude unless you have refineries to blend and process it or you are limited by your existing refiniries that can blend the specific crude and storage capicity ,the recent deal with Essar shows the percentage of Ural crude will grow

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Nov 2015 09:45

For Far East and even ASEAN states,Russian oil from Vladivostok could be very competitive.For Japan and China,they're neighbours.Assured supply at speed with significant cost benefits. As said above,for us,Iran is the most competitive route for trade into Central Asia.Had India and Pak been "good neighbours",Pak would benefit immensely from trade between India and Central Asia. Thanks to its spiteful nature,it has lost out big time.

If the MOD and IAF are both unhappy as Viv has alleged,then the smaller the size of the "gift" and lesser the cost the better.The IAF can then acquire more numbers of equally capable aircraft at competitive prices. The Rafale deal will have its impact upon other areas of critical needs like trainers,AWACS/AEW aircraft,tankers,transports,etc.,apart from upgrading air bases,air defence missiles and arty. having plumped for it for so long and refusing to speak openly about any "Plan B",or seriously considering alternatives to its overall force structure,it now has to swallow the medicine that Dr.Modi is prescribing,which he has prescribed base upon the IAF's earlier 'symptoms"!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Nov 2015 09:54

Good grief, didn't know hollande was hoping to be the man on r day, rafales are in I guess...damned shame even though it's a great plane. Hope they bite the bullet and buy at least one more sqd...

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Nov 2015 21:40

Viv S wrote:<SNIP>
Buying oil from Russia, delivered how? Via China driven/piped across the Himalayas? Or shipped south from Siberia? Across the Sea of Japan -> East China Sea -> South China Sea ->Malacca Strait -> Andaman Sea -> Bay of Bengal.

How do you expect that to be cost competitive with crude dispatched from Chabahar or Dammam or Abu Dhabi?
<SNIP>
Japan and Russia are neighbours. India and Russia in contrast are relatively distant countries.

Yes, shipped. The Chinese and Japanese oil deals are recent, and the Chinese and the Japanese buy oil from gulf too as far as energy supply is concerned. There is not much difference between China buying oil from afar and India buying oil from afar, and the gulf sells oil to regions as far as USA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Nov 2015 21:57

OT for this thread, but, Indian interest in Russian "O&G" is more about exploration, etc. Please check the Indo-Russo thread. I think I saw a post on IOC getting into the act of exploration or something like that.

BTW, this O&G is not a zero sum game. As an example, India can explore in Russia, sell that oil to a third nation that transports it and sells it to a nation that has no relations or an adversarial one with Russia.

It is all about profits.

Was not there a post on Russia and Iran swapping oil?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 24 Nov 2015 23:36

If it is all about profits then my last on this. If anyone have numbers post it in O&G thread, about profits, about cost of shipping oil from Russia. Exploration is part of energy security and hedging; not other way around, for oil buyers unlike Russia and Iran i.e. oil sellers.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Nov 2015 06:05

Done deal? All in 7 years...thought need was urgent? Is this really worth the price or time?

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... dia-visit/

The supply of full complement of 36 fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be completed within seven years of signing the deal. - See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... x2QdO.dpuf

Sorry to say this, but this is a piss poor move by Modi - if he had to give the French a deal, it could have been more Scorpenes, possibly A330 tankers, the Mistrals or even a couple of FREMMs. But this is ridiculous for the price and time

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Nov 2015 06:20

Sorry to say this, but this is a piss poor move by Modi - if he had to give the French a deal, it could have been more Scorpenes, possibly A330 tankers, the Mistrals or even a couple of FREMMs. But this is ridiculous for the price and time

That will never help Dassault keep afloat.

Same with Sukhoi.

These are institutions that cannot sink - when viewed from those nation's view point.

I expect India to get a free pass elsewhere.

Let us see what happens with the bigger play: the PAK-FA.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Nov 2015 06:36

Cain Marko wrote:Done deal? All in 7 years...thought need was urgent? Is this really worth the price or time?

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... dia-visit/

Seven years. So the last Rafale will be delivered to India in 2023. That more or less dashes the hope of a follow-on order.

Sorry to say this, but this is a piss poor move by Modi - if he had to give the French a deal, it could have been more Scorpenes, possibly A330 tankers, the Mistrals or even a couple of FREMMs. But this is ridiculous for the price and time

Yeah. Can't blame the MoD or IAF for this one.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Nov 2015 07:12

Cain Marko wrote:Done deal? All in 7 years...thought need was urgent? Is this really worth the price or time?

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... dia-visit/

The supply of full complement of 36 fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be completed within seven years of signing the deal. ...
...

Standard timelines. From contract signing to first lot delivery is usually around 3 years (unless they pull some from other orders in scheduled pipeline like ones destined for French AF). Also, add some time for offset fulfillment. From there, it depends on the number of units/year that is economical for the production line to output. It seems for Indian delivery that number of units/year will be around 8 aircraft/year.

Any additional customization that the IAF would desire will push the price up and timelines further.

Rafale deal to be signed on eve of Hollande’s India visit

...
The draft contract, which envisages supply of the first fighter within 36 months of signing the deal, has been finalised.

The supply of full complement of 36 fighters to the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be completed within seven years of signing the deal.
...

So much for deriding HAL by some for "slow" delivery of first lot IOC-2 standard aircraft and "low" peak production output/year for LCA

If HAL can deliver first 4-5 LCA IOC-2 by March 2016, it would have delivered (mind you, from new production line) within 27 months from Dec 20, 2013 standard freeze and production commencement. That would be 9-months quicker than what the French will be doing from established production lines.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Nov 2015 07:37

Industry sources said the price of a Rafale fighter in the current deal has been fixed at the 2007 base rate plus an escalation formula agreed upon by both sides. As per commercial bids received for 126 fighters, plus an increment of 5.5-7.5 per cent per year applied on different sub-systems, items and services as per the escalation formula, the final price for the 36 fighters is expected to be around $8.3 bn.

Total cost = $8.3 billion. Putting the unit cost at slightly over $230 million.

Steep price to pay for two days of media coverage. Got to sympathize with Manohar Parrikar who's undoubtedly frustrated at being overridden by the PMO.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 26 Nov 2015 07:53

srai wrote:
So much for deriding HAL by some for "slow" delivery of first lot IOC-2 standard aircraft and "low" peak production output/year for LCA If HAL can deliver first 4-5 LCA IOC-2 by March 2016, it would have delivered (mind you, from new production line) within 27 months from Dec 20, 2013 standard freeze and production commencement. That would be 9-months quicker than what the French will be doing from established production lines.

Convenient, only problem is the deadlines were provided by hal et al....they should know better than to over promise and under deliver. Who can blame the brickbats then.

Just to clarify, Egypt which placed order for rafale in feb, is already taking deliveriess. The article I posted above, makes the timeline for iaf deliveries seem pretty slow considering this as well as the main purported purpose behind this order by modi was quick induction

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Nov 2015 08:00

^^^

Can you provide sources to those deadlines that HAL announced? Let''s dissect what they said and how it got interpreted.

Cain Marko wrote:...

Just to clarify, Egypt which placed order for rafale in feb, is already taking deliveriess. The article I posted above, makes the timeline for iaf deliveries seem pretty slow considering this as well as the main purported purpose behind this order by modi was quick induction

FYI, the Egypt orders were fast-tracked by diverting some of the existing French AF ones in production.

France delivers three Rafale fighter-planes to Egypt

...
The French air force, which has been the only purchaser of Rafales for the first 14 years of its their existence, has accepted that it will receive five planes this year, instead of the usual 11, so that six may be delivered to Egypt.
...

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 26 Nov 2015 09:40

$8.3 billion for 36 planes?

That's daylight robbery if true. Even if this includes weapon systems and offsets.

Are we really that stupid or does this deal include "hidden components" not in the public domain?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 26 Nov 2015 09:52

Kashi wrote:$8.3 billion for 36 planes?

That's daylight robbery if true. Even if this includes weapon systems and offsets.

Are we really that stupid or does this deal include "hidden components" not in the public domain?

We are stupid and the deal probably includes some hidden things.