IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ranjan.rao » 16 Sep 2016 02:19

Found this on a fb page

"More details of Rafale contract

Dasault has confirmed that the Rafales will be delivered at a rate of two airframes per month. The IGA is being prepared and our sources tell us that the agreement will be signed before the end of this month, some even suggesting by next week.

Earlier negotiations stipulated that the Rafales were to be delivered 18 months from the signing of the contract. But the current contract reveal the delivery start date to be in 2019, possibly due to the modifications required by the IAF and conflicting delivery schedules with Egypt and Qatar among various other reasons.

The deal includes ToT and a 50% offset where France will invest 30 percent into military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components. ToT includes state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

{WHAT HAPPEND TO KAVERI ????}
Another important development was the confirmation of 'Make In India' Rafale production line by the BJP spokeperson during a television program. As we had reported earlier, the follow on orders will be in 5 tranches with a total order around 150+ jets for both IAF and the Navy under MII. {habibi Are we getting this on f-rand-sheep prices?? wallah }The decision will be made before the end of this financial year"

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karan M » 16 Sep 2016 02:47

54 Rafales or at best 3 squadrons at 72 is what we can expect..

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 03:56

ranjan.rao wrote:Dasault has confirmed that the Rafales will be delivered at a rate of two airframes per month.

Dassault has a current production rate of 8 planes per annum and has orders to fulfill from other countries who paid as much as we did. Even if it doubles its current production rate (which is expected), the best we can expect is one aircraft per month starting 2019.

ranjan.rao wrote:
The deal includes ToT and a 50% offset where France will invest 30 percent [b]into military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components. ToT includes state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

How long can people milk us by dandling this carror of ToT. "Doodh ka jala chaanch bhi phoonk phoonk ke peeta hai" (Once scalded by hot milk, a person even cools the cream before drinking it), but we ...

Dassault reneged on its promise of ToT, and wanted to shift the production away from HAL to Reliance under the pretext that HAL does not have the background to absorb ToT. :rotfl:

Let me remind forumites about a 6 billion project called Maitri. The primary technologies that France was to transfer: active homing-head (ala seeker), thrust vector control and composites for propulsion system. I implore forumites to find out from their chaiwallas why this project went nowhere inspite of ready customers and inspite of money being put on the table. There were at least two occasions when the Indian side tried to revive this project. Today, when we are close to developing our own SRSAM/QRSAM, we are supposedly buying this technology. [This forum needs a faceplam icon]

I want to know under what context, will we get ToT for stealth, radar, materials for electronics/micro-electronics? Right now the first 36 are to be procured off-the-shelf from France. We won't even paint it, forget radar, materials. Let's say we order 120 more, of which 18 are SKD, 18 are CKD, and the remaining 70-odd are license produce in HAL. Experience has taught us that for these numbers, HAL-produced Rafales are going to be more expensive than ones that are directly imported. In fact, when this deal for 36 was announced, it was said that the cost of manufacturing Rafales at HAL was inf act working out to be more expensive than directly import them, so let's import. So much are we going to spend to buy and maintain these 150 Rafales. From my calculations the acquisition costs itself will balloon to somewhere between $50-$60 Billion!

Actually, this whole thing is so messed up, I don't even feel like writing anything anymore. It makes my blood boil. Today, it is being justified that we are getting 36 Rafales for 7.8billion Euros, glorifying a suggested 30% reduction from the quoted price. Where is this quoted price coming from? The original MMRCA was for 128-odd planes. There was no talk of 36 Rafales before that. If 36 Rafales were quoted at 10+ billion euros, then I have to believe that IAF chose a bid of around 50 billion dollars for 128 planes :roll: . Can't believe that.

The only thing that can make my blood boil further: Rafales being screwdrivered by Reliance in Fadnavis's state.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Sep 2016 04:10

I am Kaanphused.Is the 3 year delivery time frame for start of delivery or complete delivery?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Sep 2016 04:14

I read that Dassault will triple production to 3 per month and the Armee Del Air has suspended delivery till 2020?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 04:17

Deliveries to start from 2019, which is logical. You start ordering parts for a jet today, you will get the jet in 2019.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Sep 2016 04:23

indranilroy wrote:Deliveries to start from 2019, which is logical. You start ordering parts for a jet today, you will get the jet in 2019.


The word is that we were promised deliveries to start in 2 years and end by 3 years.Some facebook pages are quoting this.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 04:26

The FB pages can say whatever they want. They can't change the rate of production overnight. It is not possible. If Dassault starts ramping up its production today, the rate at which planes come off its production line would not change for at least an year. And even then forget tripling production rate in that span of time. It will be similar to how you see HAL increasing its rate from 8 to 16 to 24. Dassault is the integrator of a huge puzzle, some of whose parts take atleast one year to be put together. For increasing the rate of production of Rafale, they have to order additional M-88s today. That has to be ramped up first. And we are speaking of the French here. They prefer not to work on Fridays. Forget the summer.

And what will Dassault tell the Egyptians and Qataris. You signed your contracts for comparable number of aircrafts before the Indians. But please wait, we will first cater to the Indians, and then you?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Sep 2016 04:32

indranilroy wrote:The FB pages can say whatever they want. They can't change the rate of production overnight. It is not possible. If Dassault starts ramping up its production today, the rate at which planes come off its production line would not change for at least an year. This is because the parts won't be ready, unless they are going to fit used parts from their jets. The lead time for many critical parts is over an year. For example, what is the rate of production of the M-88s?

And what will Dassault tell the Egyptians and Qataris. You signed your contracts for comparable number of aircrafts before the Indians. But please wait, we will first cater to the Indians, and then you?


So if we discount 2017 we can still expect planes in 2018,going by your estimate that ramping up production will take a year to change.AFAIK it took them only 5 months to deliver 1st Rafale to Egypt.

PS:Even if we consider 36+18 aircrafts we are still more than Qatar plus Egypt combined.We dont know if India will buy more under MII.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 16 Sep 2016 04:35

There are only so much of your own deliveries they could defer. I think if you look into it you'll realize that for Egypt, they let them buy into french slots. The production for them is actually quite flexible and they should be able to aggressively increase it. How fast, remains to be seen but whatever they promise will naturally come with a contractual guarantee.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Sep 2016 04:38

brar_w wrote:There are only so much of your own deliveries they could defer. I think if you look into it you'll realize that for Egypt, they let them buy into french slots. The production for them is actually quite flexible and they should be able to aggressively increase it. How fast, remains to be seen but whatever they promise will naturally come with a contractual guarantee.


Armee Del Air is suspended till 2020?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 04:39

Yes, because they diverted the French Rafales towards them. There are only 8 Rafales being manufactured annully now. That's why they could manage 6 in one year to Egypt. Not they have the Qataris and us. How many can they divert?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 04:43

They plan to increase their production rate to 22 per annum by 2019. So no, 2 per month is highly unlikely. We would at most get 1 plane per month from 2019.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Sep 2016 04:55

Lets wait till 23rd sep and we will know when we will get the Rafales.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 16 Sep 2016 06:18

This begging has gone way too far! next would be Abe calling Modi for a joint development of Kaveri. Enough is enough.

Kick GTRE butts, and let us reorg. IIT M and A were recently on an agreement for high-end propulsion studies. Let us get this done by first principles again.

We need a restart on K.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby brar_w » 16 Sep 2016 06:44

indranilroy wrote:They plan to increase their production rate to 22 per annum by 2019. So no, 2 per month is highly unlikely. We would at most get 1 plane per month from 2019.


2 per month would be 22 per year for Dassault if they dedicate 100% capacity to India which is however unlikely.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Singha » 16 Sep 2016 08:04

I guess we can kiss the AMCA goodbye now as a deliverable product with timelines.

it just became a NAL or NASA type pure science project.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ranjan.rao » 16 Sep 2016 08:37

My fear is all this will leave little money for amca ...Kaveri may still come as that will be needed for LCA in huge no.. Although quite late

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 08:53

tens of billions are so readily available to keep a foreign production line humming. And our scientists at NAL have to volunteer time and gas money to develop Saras. It is a national shame.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Paarth » 16 Sep 2016 09:27

Singha wrote:I guess we can kiss the AMCA goodbye now as a deliverable product with timelines.

it just became a NAL or NASA type pure science project.


AMCA was never near anyway, even if India invested all of her brain and brawn AMCA will be fielded only by early 30s,
Rafale was chosen because we dont have anything else to counter chinese which are already getting latest russian jet su - 35,
partially funded and borrows tech. from MKIs.
Rafale will definitely come in numbers now for better or worst. India is easily 30 years behind west in most of crown military tech.
just hope Rafale tech. is observed in coming decades.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 11:04

Actually, I had thought that I would not post on this thread for two days, but your post brings me back. :D

The only reason why one buys a medium weight fighter over a heavy fighter is better economics. When this is not case, I don't know of any reason to buy the former. This is exactly the opposite case now. All included, we are paying about 250 million per Rafale which is about twice the price of an Su-35. And, we know that maintaining/upgrading this Frenchware will be equally, if not more expensive than the Russianwares. Now let us look at the Su-35 as a plan B.

The Su-35 option was always open to us. In fact, if we got it, we could have premepted their sale to Pakistan/China. Now these guys are getting these formidable planes at half the price against our Rafales/MKIs. I don't know who holds the upper hand now. Technologically they are at par, they have better reach and numerical advantage. Also, the serial production of the MKIs are drawing to a close at Nashik. If Su-35s were to be license manufactured, Nashik could have hit the road running with very high levels of indeginization and speed from day 1. Additionally, these Su-35s could have shared weaponry with our existing fleet of MKIs, LCAs and also been able to work in a networked fashioned way. Alas, now our Rafales are going to be able to talk only among themselves.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby JayS » 16 Sep 2016 11:19

indranilroy wrote:
The only thing that can make my blood boil further: Rafales being screwdrivered by Reliance in Fadnavis's state.


Exactly my feelings. How can be do this harakiri over and over and over again?? :evil:

So we have had put numbers for MMRCA 15years before they actually are bought. What is the number being put for AMCA which is say 10-15yrs ahead of us now?? I would love to see IAF putting up a number and be as much adamant as they are on Rafale with no plan B whatsoever for AMCA as well.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Paarth » 16 Sep 2016 11:41

indranilroy wrote:Actually, I had thought that I would not post on this thread for two days, but your post brings me back. :D

The only reason why one buys a medium weight fighter over a heavy fighter is better economics. When this is not case, I don't know of any reason to buy the former. This is exactly the opposite case now. All included, we are paying about 250 million per Rafale which is about twice the price of an Su-35. And, we know that maintaining/upgrading this Frenchware will be equally, if not more expensive than the Russianwares. Now let us look at the Su-35 as a plan B.

The Su-35 option was always open to us. In fact, if we got it, we could have premepted their sale to Pakistan/China. Now these guys are getting these formidable planes at half the price against our Rafales/MKIs. I don't know who holds the upper hand now. Technologically they are at par, they have better reach and numerical advantage. Also, the serial production of the MKIs are drawing to a close at Nashik. If Su-35s were to be license manufactured, Nashik could have hit the road running with very high levels of indeginization and speed from day 1. Additionally, these Su-35s could have shared weaponry with our existing fleet of MKIs, LCAs and also been able to work in a networked fashioned way. Alas, now our Rafales are going to be able to talk only among themselves.


Rafale is not short leg fighter, neither maintenance heavy as comparison to Sukhoi, mistaking Rafale as technologically par with Su-35 wont be fare for
Su 35 pilots. Rafale can exploit Su 35s strong areas for which it was exactly designed.
I am not sure serial production of MKIs are coming to close anytime in future. Production lines/upgrade will be open till FGFA comes to assembly line.
IAF desperately required a western fighter which finally it will get to maintain morals up and discourage the enemy to take IAF head on.
I'll be happy if India can share weaponry among Migs, LCA, MKI or FGFA. Mirages/Jaguars can work in tandem with 50 odd Rafales just fine.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 16 Sep 2016 12:08

The Q is if we wanted just a western bird,why was the much cheaper and more affordable Gripen not considered? Desi LCA lobby perhaps scuttled the idea.However,since 45 sqds are needed,it is impossible to equip them with mostly heavy and med fighters.Here 400+ LCAs and Gripens could do the business just as 400+ MIG-21s,etc. served us very well in the past...and even now!

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Kashi » 16 Sep 2016 12:14

Philip wrote:The Q is if we wanted just a western bird,why was the much cheaper and more affordable Gripen not considered? Desi LCA lobby perhaps scuttled the idea.However,since 45 sqds are needed,it is impossible to equip them with mostly heavy and med fighters.Here 400+ LCAs and Gripens could do the business just as 400+ MIG-21s,etc. served us very well in the past...and even now!


Do we even have such a thing? If we do, they seem to be doing a less than stellar job in ramping up LCA numbers in IAF.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby VishalJ » 16 Sep 2016 12:20

ranjan.rao wrote:Found this on a fb page

"More details of Rafale contract

Dasault has confirmed that the Rafales will be delivered at a rate of two airframes per month. The IGA is being prepared and our sources tell us that the agreement will be signed before the end of this month, some even suggesting by next week.

Earlier negotiations stipulated that the Rafales were to be delivered 18 months from the signing of the contract. But the current contract reveal the delivery start date to be in 2019, possibly due to the modifications required by the IAF and conflicting delivery schedules with Egypt and Qatar among various other reasons.

The deal includes ToT and a 50% offset where France will invest 30 percent into military aeronautics-related research programs and 20 percent into local production of Rafale components. ToT includes state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics.

{WHAT HAPPEND TO KAVERI ????}
Another important development was the confirmation of 'Make In India' Rafale production line by the BJP spokeperson during a television program. As we had reported earlier, the follow on orders will be in 5 tranches with a total order around 150+ jets for both IAF and the Navy under MII. {habibi Are we getting this on f-rand-sheep prices?? wallah }The decision will be made before the end of this financial year"

With respect, that part in blue is incorrect.

I shared the post with a person in the know & i'll just copy-paste his response:
Ha ha. That's great. I'll take two of whatever that guy's smoking :lol:

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Philip » 16 Sep 2016 12:30

We still have 120 odd MIG-21 Bisons in service and about 200+ extra MIG-21s/27s still in service.The type has served for over 50 yrs! We cannot replace them with uber-expensive Rafales.Only an LCA type affordable light multi-role fighter will suffice.Numbers absolutely need to fight a two-front war.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby SaiK » 16 Sep 2016 14:03

MaharathiArjun wrote:IAF desperately required a western fighter which finally it will get to maintain morals up and discourage the enemy to take IAF head on.
I'll be happy if India can share weaponry among Migs, LCA, MKI or FGFA. Mirages/Jaguars can work in tandem with 50 odd Rafales just fine.

Whoa! in what way JSF is not western and better than Rafale? #justSaying.
And in what way LCA is not "desperately required" better than western fighter for IAF?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Manish_Sharma » 16 Sep 2016 17:10

Philip wrote:The Q is if we wanted just a western bird,why was the much cheaper and more affordable Gripen not considered? Desi LCA lobby perhaps scuttled the idea.....


Desi LCA lobby perhaps scuttled the idea....

Said with such sneer!
Waah shaabaash, but i guess you've the status that you can get away with anything you say. Our poor grippen.... got such unfair treatment due to parayaa Tejas ooops no LCA lobby.

We shouldn't make our own aircraft carrier but buy from british their pious 1000 years old vintage carrier.

We shouldn't go for this when russians have that (mind you old rickety stuff not pristine new one... too sophisticated for you injuns)

What if your types are there in big numbers to make decisions even today. Hope not for nation's sake.

Yup we should buy anything swedish, british or russian anything to get out of this bad evil all powerful desi LCA, Arjun, Dhanush, Bheem lobby....

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 16 Sep 2016 18:33

@IndranilRoy^^^"The Su-35 option was always open to us. In fact, if we got it, we could have premepted their sale to Pakistan/China. Now these guys are getting these formidable planes at half the price against our Rafales/MKIs. "

Sure but then the Russkies would have named it SU-36 and sold it to the pakis and Chinese anyway. It's a losing game.

Let Pakistan buy from the Russians. They will not only bankrupt themselves but also have half their fleet grounded for servicing. The PRC are going to field their top of line fighters against the US in the Pacific. They can handle us quite easily with the other older ones.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Karthik S » 16 Sep 2016 18:42

indranilroy wrote:The Su-35 option was always open to us. In fact, if we got it, we could have premepted their sale to Pakistan/China. Now these guys are getting these formidable planes at half the price against our Rafales/MKIs.


From the news articles, it only seems pakis are showing interest and negotiations are at beginning phase. With Indian delegation just having left for Russia for different multi billion dollar deals and with President Putin's India visit next month, what are the chances that we'l convince Russia against supplying the planes to the pakis.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 16 Sep 2016 20:31

Karthik S wrote:
indranilroy wrote:The Su-35 option was always open to us. In fact, if we got it, we could have premepted their sale to Pakistan/China. Now these guys are getting these formidable planes at half the price against our Rafales/MKIs.


From the news articles, it only seems pakis are showing interest and negotiations are at beginning phase. With Indian delegation just having left for Russia for different multi billion dollar deals and with President Putin's India visit next month, what are the chances that we'l convince Russia against supplying the planes to the pakis.


How will Bakis fund the SU 35 purchase?

And TBH only Bakis are saying we are interested.The Russian govt has denied any intention to sell.Bakis are even interested in the Russia electronic warfare equipment.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 21:22

Amoghvarsha wrote:How will Bakis fund the SU 35 purchase?

And TBH only Bakis are saying we are interested.The Russian govt has denied any intention to sell.Bakis are even interested in the Russia electronic warfare equipment.

For India, PLAAF having Su-35 is the same as PAF having the Su-35.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 16 Sep 2016 22:44

MaharathiArjun wrote:Rafale is not short leg fighter, neither maintenance heavy as comparison to Sukhoi, mistaking Rafale as technologically par with Su-35 wont be fare for
Su 35 pilots. Rafale can exploit Su 35s strong areas for which it was exactly designed.

You clearly need to educate me on how the Su-35 is more maintenance heavy than the Rafale. Forget the disparity of acquisition cost, even if I leave aside 30% of the cost for infrastructure/missiles, you would be able to buy 2 Su-35s with the remaining 175M. Now established cost per flight hour of Rafale is $18,000. The highest figure I have read for the Su-35 is $14,000. MKIs in India have been quoted to cost $7,000 per flight hour. But I can't believe that. It is likely near $10,000-$12,000. But, if you understand how flight costs are calculated (differs from country to country), you will realize that if the plane and its parts cost twice as much, there is no way you can have a lower operational costs. The difference of fuel costs is of the order of $1000 dollars between an heavy fighter and a medium weight fighter for a 2 hour sortie.

Let me give you another figure. There is a talk of upgrading Su-30s to Super-Su-30s. If taken up, 2-3 years from now, it will cost $ 8B for about 200 aircraft. 49 Mirages were upgraded for 2.5B for a deal signed in 2011-12! How is maintenance of the Frenchware cheap? So you will have to teach me something new.

Infact, you should check the French Airforces ordeals in generating money to keep its current fleet of Rafales flying. They have happily deferred taking possession of any more Rafales till all export orders are met.

MaharathiArjun wrote:I am not sure serial production of MKIs are coming to close anytime in future. Production lines/upgrade will be open till FGFA comes to assembly line.

HAL will finish manufacturing the last MKIs in 2019-20. If the first 36 Su-35s are to come from Sukhoi starting 2018-2019, then this would have been a perfect timing for a switch over to the Su-35s.

MaharathiArjun wrote:IAF desperately required a western fighter which finally it will get to maintain morals up and discourage the enemy to take IAF head on.

:rotfl: A western fighter picks up moral. WAH WAH! [Slow claps].

MaharathiArjun wrote:
I'll be happy if India can share weaponry among Migs, LCA, MKI or FGFA. Mirages/Jaguars can work in tandem with 50 odd Rafales just fine.

Currently most of the communication systems on the IAF Jaguars are Indo-Israeli. They are considering putting the 2032 on it as well. Well yes, the Mirages and Rafales can talk to each other.

By the way: Your id does not conform to the forum guidelines. You can keep Arjun, but not maharathi, because Maharathi is a title not a human sounding name. Is it okay with you if I go ahead change your id to Arjun, or do you prefer something else. Please reply on the feedback thread.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 17 Sep 2016 00:27

indranilroy wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:How will Bakis fund the SU 35 purchase?

And TBH only Bakis are saying we are interested.The Russian govt has denied any intention to sell.Bakis are even interested in the Russia electronic warfare equipment.

For India, PLAAF having Su-35 is the same as PAF having the Su-35.


PLAAF getting involved in any Indian conflict will drag in many more variables.Lot more than the PRC will be willing to handle.India's defeat in Asia at the hand's of PRC(Unlikely,more likely a stalemate) will hit the interest of many others.Also in such a scenario India will be forced to explore options that will make life extremely difficult for PRC in future.So PLAAF involvement with PAF will be very limited.

I have a NOOB question dada,if you would please answer,

The French are replacing a number of aircrafts with a smaller number of Rafales,claiming that its quality is such that even in lower numbers it makes no quantitative Rafales for IAF should make u for the larger number of planes we are retiring?

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby VishalJ » 17 Sep 2016 00:35

indranilroy wrote:
MaharathiArjun wrote:IAF desperately required a western fighter which finally it will get to maintain morals up and discourage the enemy to take IAF head on.

:rotfl: A western fighter picks up moral. WAH WAH! [Slow claps]

You guys mean morale¿

ragupta
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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby ragupta » 17 Sep 2016 00:59

The French are replacing a number of aircrafts with a smaller number of Rafales,claiming that its quality is such that even in lower numbers it makes no quantitative Rafales for IAF should make u for the larger number of planes we are retiring?


No noob, but French and EU can talk whatever they want, where is the threat for france or EU? as of now the combined strength of EU will be used in case of threat, so I guess they have enough jets for that.

Both quality and quantity is required for India.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Sep 2016 01:01

Exactly. This argument is often discussed. It is true that qualitatively modern planes and ammunitions are much more precise than their predecessors. Therefore if you use Rafales to bomb Afghanistan,Libya and Syria, you can do it more effectively with fewer planes. But, if Rafales had to fight modern aircrafts like Su-35s, EFs, upgraded F-15s/F-16s/F-18s etc., can it go in with a significant numerical disadvantage? If not, we have bet on the wrong side.

India's scenario is different from the French. Our adversaries are not only modernizing at an alarming rate but have established a significant numerical advantage. We need at least 52 squadrons to defend ourselves. thankfully, we have the resources to start to put our house in order. I also have faith in the govt. We should think strategically, how do we start to solve the problem that from 2025 onwards:
1. It is financially viable
2. It should be based on self-reliance
3. It should be sustainable

MMRCA was not salvageable. There was no requirement for us to salvage it. We should have had a plan B, and enacted it if the plan A resulted in a stalemate after 15 years. We don't need to keep the French happy when they leak our secrets, openly disparage us saying that they would offer tech to the Aussies which they would never us, brazenly go back on promised ToTs. We should learn to stand up and for ourselves and stop licking the ...

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Indranil » 17 Sep 2016 01:08

Our own products are not ready yet. We have to make them ready. There is no other sustainable solution for us. We are getting there in missiles, ships, helicopters, space vehicles, radars. In all the above, we have accepted good solutions, not the best available "western" solution. If we continue on the current trajectories for the next 10-15 years, we will be there.

Aside: The govt. will pander to the popular demand. So be careful of what you demand or support, because you will get it.

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Re: IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Postby Amoghvarsha » 17 Sep 2016 01:11

ragupta wrote:
The French are replacing a number of aircrafts with a smaller number of Rafales,claiming that its quality is such that even in lower numbers it makes no quantitative Rafales for IAF should make u for the larger number of planes we are retiring?


No noob, but French and EU can talk whatever they want, where is the threat for france or EU? as of now the combined strength of EU will be used in case of threat, so I guess they have enough jets for that.

Both quality and quantity is required for India.


Agreed.Thats a scenario i hadnt envisioned.Does this also makes a case for India to finally have mutual defence treaties?


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