Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

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Altair
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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Altair » 13 Jun 2015 10:12

1. Earlier in UPA, snakes like Pravin Swami were given plenty of milk...They were fed info by sources inside MoD, South Block Babu's and assorted points of leakages.
2.All these sources are now blocked and Pravin Swami only knew about the Myanmar Op when it was announced.
3.He knows he cannot buy his way through. He is opting for a secondary approach. Make lot of noise and force Army or GoI to divulge more info as a deal to not make noise. Standard American Journo tactic.
4. Expect him to make wild accusations in the next step of escalation.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Jun 2015 10:25

shiv wrote:
LokeshC wrote:I am starting to notice one pattern :- If there is a credible evidence of Indian capability advance, Bakis will test us for it at some point. This is because they cannot afford to lose the leverage they have on us, which is their raison-detre.

True but as I said earlier this puts Pakistan in a Catch 22 situation because in order for them to test us and claim that the test failed they have to admit that they provoked/sent in terrorists etc and that we failed to hit them because they are not Myanmar. Enough to make any Paki splutter with frustration. :(( :rotfl:

Pakis live in a mental world in which committing genocide, let alone terrorism, against India and Hindus is not a noteworthy event, hence there wouldn't be anything to admit. Even a mentally challenged child would have understood that Indian officials were only saying that committing terrorism against India would attract retaliation, and not issuing some sort of unilateral threat to any other country. But that didn't stop pakis from throwing a nationally unanimous hissy fit against India's promise of retaliation, even when said fit would logically constitute an "admission " on their part that they take their own terrorism against India as the normal state of affairs.

So, no, I don't think that pakis are going to find themselves in any sort of logical trap when they do commit that inevitable act of terrorism against India, no more than they do now.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 13 Jun 2015 10:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Jun 2015 10:44

Dup deleted
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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Jun 2015 10:44

KLNMurthy wrote:
RamaY wrote:^^ That's where i disagree & even go to the extent of questioning our strategic geostrategic strategists!

Who told these people that Myanmar is offended/embarrassed by Indian operation? These people (I wish to call them names they deserve) are working hard to put the sense of insult in Myanmar's mind.

If Myanmar, which suffers from factionalism in its military and political circles, finds itself in a more complicated situation due to statements in India's political and media circles, they are not making needlessly emotional or bombastic statements about it. They have confined themselves to terse statements that leave them enough wiggle room, e.g., "according to our info from our ground-level military, India did not cross the border." If the jubilation on the Indian side that stemmed from the "boldly crossing the border" aspect has landed them in internal difficulties among their factions, then they are probably either accepting that as the price to be paid for mutual security cooperation with India, or they may take it up discreetly when Doval visits them.

I think, in this case, rather than say, Pakistan is no Myanmar, it is better to say, Myanmar is no Pakistan. Myanmarese have the best score in my book for precise and disciplined use of words in this case, pakis are of course, the exact opposite, thanks be to Allah.

India and Indians too, can learn a thing or two from Myanmarese officials in this case about how to keep control of the discourse.

Old-school paki ex-bureaucrat IA Rehman, writing in Dawn, linky opines that the rhetoric from the Indian side is a bania plot to provoke TSP. Maybe so(and if so, ghee-shakkar in the old man's mouth), but just from experience, I fear it is more likely IMO that our ministers other than Modi, are just following the Indian tendency to be loose in their statements.

Jingos here have expressed the view that Indians should be free to celebrate this event in any way they wish, just stopping short of accusing people like Vikram Sood (who was critical of the free-and-easy rhetoric) of being somehow anti-national. We may wish to ponder one of the basic strengths of our culture, namely the discipline to use words as subtle precision guided munitions. (Anyone with even slight exposure to Sanskrutam will know what I am talking about here.). Seems to me, far from (re-)learning those skills, we are throwing words around with very little understanding of their power, much like a savage may throw a PGM like a stone.

I went on at some length above. Then I watched the video of Shri Rathore making the statement in question. I thought he was actually quite careful and circumspect in his statements, only under repeated, insistent questioning by Ornob he said, something to the effect that, if it comes to something specific like Pakistan, well, yes, since they are not cooperative, our policy would mean we would go in if we have to.

Just goes to show that, even I have trouble following my own advice to not base any significant conclusions on media reports when direct access to official statements is available. Here is the link to Rathore's statement:

linky

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby johneeG » 13 Jun 2015 10:53

Altair wrote:1. Earlier in UPA, snakes like Pravin Swami were given plenty of milk...They were fed info by sources inside MoD, South Block Babu's and assorted points of leakages.
2.All these sources are now blocked and Pravin Swami only knew about the Myanmar Op when it was announced.
3.He knows he cannot buy his way through. He is opting for a secondary approach. Make lot of noise and force Army or GoI to divulge more info as a deal to not make noise. Standard American Journo tactic.
4. Expect him to make wild accusations in the next step of escalation.


I think the argument is that the media acts as a check & balance on other state apparatus. I am quite open to this checks and balances and I think its a good thing if there are checks and balances to stop state apparatus from doing wrong. But, it also needs to be recognized that the same checks and balances can be used to stop state apparatus from doing their proper job.

Now, who is right and who is wrong is very difficult to determine. So, the best way is to simply go by some basics:
a) If Indian Express claims that Army or Govt are being economical with truth about this operation, then they should furnish some proof to back up their claims. Just handwaving by claiming 'unnamed high profile sources' is unethical. He has no business claiming such things without furnishing proofs to back up his claims. Otherwise, anyone can claim anything.
b) Praveen Swami has repeatedly questioned such operations by claiming 'unnamed high profile sources'. It was done during the terror boat incident and also in Myanmar operation. So, if Praveen Swami is wrong, then the Govt should take him to court or some other institution if he does not furnish proof. If the Govt lets this kind of repeated doubting pass, then it amounts to giving credibility to Praveen Swami.

So, as I see it, there are two aspects:
-Praveen Swami is making a claim that Army and Govt are grossly exaggerating. Before, he said that Govt and Coast Guard were lying. Either he should provide proof to back up his claims or
- Govt should take him to court for mudslinging without proofs.

Anyway, what is Praveen swami trying to indicate by raising doubts on the casualty figures? He seems to be trying to point out that the operation was not as big a success as it was claimed.

Actually, this operation is a departure from the erstwhile policy because of its scale(IAF used) and scope(borders crossed). The actual casualty figures are not the main concern. The bigger point is to signal a clear new policy change and willingness to back it up.

Anyway, I think the casualties will not be clearly know because air-power was used in the dead of the night. I think the Govt should call the bluff of Praveen Swami and ask him to come forward with the proofs to back up his claims or shut up until then. This nonsensical game of accusing without providing proofs will just keep making the waters murky if its not cleared up quickly.

This provides a good opportunity to lay down proper codes for media in such issues. I am all for freedom of media because I believe that media plays an important role in keeping the Govt and its machinery on toes. Otherwise, it can easily degenerate. But, its equally possible that the media itself can become degenerate or corrupt. So, just as there need to be checks and balances for other state apparatus. There needs to be checks and balances for media also.

If a media makes serious charges, then it should be able to back it up with clear proof. Or it should apologize publicly.

KLNMurthy wrote:[
Pakis live in a mental world in which committing genocide, let alone terrorism, against India and Hindus is not a noteworthy event, hence there wouldn't be anything to admit. Even a mentally challenged child would have understood that Indian officials were only saying that committing terrorism against India would attract retaliation, and not issuing some sort of unilateral threat to any other country. But that didn't stop pakis from throwing a nationally unanimous hissy fit against India's promise of retaliation, even when said fit would logically constitute an "admission " on their part that they take their own terrorism against as the normal state of affairs.

So, no, I don't think that pakis are going to find themselves in any sort of logical trap when they do commit that inevitable act of terrorism against India, no more than they do now.


If Bhaarath doesn't react, they get emboldened and do more terrorism. If Bhaarath reacts, they play victim(which doesn't change anything except their posturing). Given this situation, I think its better to let them play victim than to become their victim.

Murthy saar,
Rathore seems to have conveyed a clear message under commands of someone high up the chain. He was not stepping out of line. On the contrary, he was conveying a message to Pakistan.

The larger question is: what are the realistic options before Pakistan if Bhaarath chooses to carry out hot pursuit in Pakistan or POK?
Can they escalate to full-scale war? Do they have the capabilities to fight a full-scale war? Does Bhaarath have the capability to fight a full-scale war right now given the possibility of second front by China? Who will gain if there is a war? Can Pakistan escalate to nuclear-war?

I think this is the actual issue. Now, everyone can see that Pakistan is in panic. Everyone can also see that Modi sarkaar has been responding disproportionately to provocations from enemies on national security. Its also known that Pakistan preferred to de-escalate in Kargil conflict. Even recently, defence minister revealed that it was Pakistan which backed out when mortars were fired across the LOC and IB recently. So, the question is: if pakistan has capability to fight a full-scale war and option to escalate to nuclear war, then why is it panicking and why is Bhaarath warning Pakistan? Bhaarath should be using the offensive defensive doctrine of Doval instead of this hot pursuit option if Pakistan has such capabilities.

Actually, if Pakistan has such nuclear capabilities and war capabilities, then why did it back down when mortars were fired across IB? Why didn't Pakistan escalate to the next level? Why didn't it use its nuclear capabilities during Kargil?

It seems to me that Pakistan is simply bluffing and it has no capability to fight a full-scale war and I doubt their nukes also. I think Pakistan prepares for 3-week localized war to keep Bhaarath tied down. I think its a very shrewd strategy.
A full-scale war on all fronts is not affordable to Pakistan.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Altair » 13 Jun 2015 11:24

johneeG
My point is Pravin Swami is a bluffmaster. He is doing this to gain attention from GoI to provide him with more info so that he shuts up. Also he gets another angle into things. Right now he is just bluffing.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2015 11:30

intel reports from both sides indicate 59 KIa and around 45 injured. of the 59 there was a mass funeral military style of 19 at one place with buddhish priests being called in.

a squad of 15-20 is believed to have slipped into our side to carry out revenge attacks

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby partha » 13 Jun 2015 11:37

^
But according to PRaveen Swami, only 7 dead. May be intel reports are totally wrong? Did they even count the bodies? Agents are eating too much Haldiram's.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby JE Menon » 13 Jun 2015 11:48

>>My point is Pravin Swami is a bluffmaster.

Even if he was paid by the enemy, he could not be more useful to them. He has either been consistently lying, or repeatedly fooled. Neither inspires anything like respect. Contempt comes more easily. Pity, because he has done a bit of reading, and on occasion demonstrates that he could actually be a fairly useful commentator.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby vina » 13 Jun 2015 12:03

a mass funeral military style of 19 at one place with buddhish priests being called in

I thought the Nagas were Baptists , converted enmasse by Brit/NZ and American missionaries in the late 19th Century.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Anujan » 13 Jun 2015 12:51

In a NSN article, we report that nobody was killed in the North East operation, a grandma who inadvertently crossed the border while smuggling diesel was shot and then it was reported as a cross border op. Such ops have taken place regularly since 1947 and is not remarkable at all.


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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby hanumadu » 13 Jun 2015 17:04

Govt believes 83 rebels killed in Army raid in Myanmar

The ministry has also learnt from multiple sources, including those based in villages dotting the Myanmar-Manipur border and trusted aides in touch with Myanmar authorities, that around 49 bodies were removed from the site where the camps stood after the Army raid flattened them.

In addition, as many as 60 injured cadres were shifted out in 12-13 vehicles to safer locations in Kalemyo, Mandalay and beyond.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Yagnasri » 13 Jun 2015 17:44

It is a failed operation - only 83 dead and no one even injured from our side. Modi shall resign. :mrgreen:

Is the main reason for this operation is Rahul stay in Mayanmar. Is Modi is seriously rattled. :rotfl:

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Hari Seldon » 13 Jun 2015 18:20

Hafiz Saeed in a speech has publicly warned against trying to target Muridke in a Myanmar style raid... These clowns are funniest when they're dead (pun intended) serious only.

Image

P.S. pls remove if this isn't the dhaga for this post. Will x-post in GDF anyway.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2015 18:37

must have been a pretty frightening raid ...3am...right out of hell to have a bunch of black clad warriors in night vision, ski masks and body armour sweeping through the camp in small groups, dropping grenades, taking out anything moving with laser sights....
and you somehow dodge the carnage only to run into a line of gunfire from another skirmish line further out setup to gun down leakers...

the evil thump thump thump of unseen helis using MMGs to hose down anything they see moving...

they have been slapped pretty hard after a long long time. many will not want to camp near the border ever again...

so far they had the initiative in when to attack via ambush and melt away..and avoid going up against unfavourable odds...that choice has been removed....must be a shock to guerillas brought up in that corn-fed mode that just crossing 1m across the border was safety.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Altair » 13 Jun 2015 18:59

Hari Seldon wrote:Hafiz Saeed in a speech has publicly warned against trying to target Muridke in a Myanmar style raid..

This is exactly the reason why Col.Rathore was asked to comment in media on possible such response to Pakistan. Now, the next step in sequence is Hafiz making a "false" move, I call it "false" as all possible counter moves must have been gamed by Shree.Doval and Asif Ibrahim saab. Hafiz is pork chops onlee.. :twisted:

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby rsingh » 13 Jun 2015 20:13

johneeG wrote:
chetak wrote:No comments

Image


Its not clear to me: who recovered these bodies? NSCN? Army? Myanmar Govt? Indian Express? Praveen Swami? Who recovered only 7 bodies?



Kar di logic ke aisi ki taisi. If terrorists had information about the forthcoming IA operation..........why they left 7 of comlades to die?

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby chetak » 13 Jun 2015 20:27

Maodas Macaulayputra ‏@Macaulayputra Jun 12

Maodas Macaulayputra retweeted Firstpost

Jab Myanmari razi, tau kya kahe (Wajahat) Qazi? #IndiaHitsBack @firstpost

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby chetak » 13 Jun 2015 20:29

Gernail Raheel ‏@GernailSaab Jun 10

One Myanmar Op and Indians going gaga uh? We pulled off many such ops w/o bothering about credit like 26/11, Kargil, Kandhar…grow up India!!
Last edited by chetak on 13 Jun 2015 20:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby RamaY » 13 Jun 2015 20:50

KLNM garu,

I agree with your points, but like everything else we are seeing same truth from different POVs.

I humbly argue that the so-called strategic geostrategy strategists are at fault as long as they behave secular and put indian interests above Bharatiya interests. I will leave it at that in this thread.

Secondly, i question the whole premise of Myanmar being embarrassed about Indian operation. Myanmar wouldnt sign anti-terror agreement if it were so. The very definition of hot-pursuit doesnt offer time to follow the secular diplomatic protocols.

Thirdly, I disagree on the need to celebrate this type of operations. Majority of our festivals are anniversaries of 'victory of good over evil'.

India is celebrating the anti-terrorist operation of Indian Army as announced by GoI; that is it.

I wouldn't trust a single thing the media or defense analysts say. None of them raised their head during the last decade for Bharatiya Interests.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2015 21:03

Khaplang had some wind of it and fled to Rangoon to seek treatment leaving his cannon fodder to take heat

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby vsunder » 13 Jun 2015 21:15

Why, maybe he is injured and receiving some treatment for his wounds. Why would you go to a hospital when you can appear and give a press conference in Yangon? He knows he can play Indian MSM, by appearing before them and issuing statements, so why does he not? But what if he is damaged, then go to a hospital, where access can be controlled, and make any number of statements. He probably escaped from the carnage but not without getting hurt. Probably he has a praetorian guard around him who are ready to fall over their sword to let El Leader escape.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Bade » 13 Jun 2015 21:21

He left way before all this. Was not there a report on Myanmar having sought India's permission or informed India about his presence in Yangon for treatment and India okayed it.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby AjayKK » 13 Jun 2015 21:37

Singha wrote:Khaplang had some wind of it and fled to Rangoon to seek treatment leaving his cannon fodder to take heat


North East militancy: Who controls NSCN-K chief SS Khaplang

Vicky Nanjappa

http://www.oneindia.com/feature/north-e ... 76255.html

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby member_28788 » 13 Jun 2015 22:21

Guys here is some food for thought. Our Jingoism aside.

In the world of diplomacy and military strength, even slight signals are sufficient to give the message. After all military and intelligence agencies are always very keen observers of their adversaries (indeed such is the sensitivity of such agencies that they would keep a keen ear for even things that you dont communicte at all). If the reason for the PR about myanmar operations was to give pakistan a message, then even subtle communication would have been enough. Pakistani or chinese military and intel agencies would have picked it up and baked into their calculations.

But when you do it publically, lights, camera, sound style - the adversary is forced to take a counter stand and this time publically - for their own internal audience. If we wanted pakistan to bake-in new indian doctrine into their calculations, the public counter stand dilutes that baking in. Public posturing by pakistan actually corners them into a counter-position. Infact public posturing increases rhetoric and reduces the chances of quiet shift across the borders. Pakistani leaders may be ready to cede the ground informally but formally they will never do it. Public posturing hinders the shift, if anything.

The public PR if anything was aimed at internal indian audience and the target was political mileage and not military mileage and which is why I opine, this was less visionary leadership, more petty politicking.

Plus the fallout of myanmar being dismissive of Indian claims. Reports have said that indian ambassador to myanmar had to spend the entire next day to calm ruffled feathers in Myanmar. This wasnt Modi government's Osama moment. That could come if we get Dawood this way.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Karan M » 13 Jun 2015 22:59

YashG, not picking on you personally, but the points that media has reported which your post reiterates, all that stuff is onanism which India has excelled in for the past decade. Silent, GOI should never talk stuff etc etc.

First, GOI has to be seen to do stuff. The public expects and wants action. Irrespective of intellectual handwaving, the fact is that the average man on the street elected this Govt, and expects strong measures and public ones.

Second, morale is a key consideration. A silent SFF/SG/SF raid would not have percolated to all the rank and file in our twenty thirty lakh strong security establishment and even the terrorists.

Third, public statements of policy add to deterrence. They are meant to convey a public, non ambiguous message which track 2/3 morons and WKK cant repudiate.

Fourth, dont go by reports. Many in the Indian media are, the most fourth rate, treasonous scumbags any country has had the misfortune of having. Their claims are mostly fake. They will invent any story to embarrass the current Govt, merely because it is "Hindu nationalist" and these leftist slimeballs loathe their own identity and the majority religion. Their toxic identity crisis has made them willing catspaws for the Congress party and other vested interests who are seeking to discredit anything the Govt of India does.

Fifth, one learns by practice, there are no perfect first attempts. Gen GD Bakshi has gone on record stating that this "deep strike" by Indian SF was a first for Indian SF in recent years, in so called peacetime, beyond usual shallow attacks across the border undertaken by large units or even SF. Its success will be noticed by and built upon by GOI and also the messaging thereafter will be also improved upon.

Sixth, this Govt does not back down. They blew up a terror boat. Shits like Pravin Swami et al made a huge hue and cry on behalf of their Pakistani brethren. The CG sank another boat thereafter. So more raids will follow (As necessary).

Seventh, its not just the Indian public who voted for this Govt, who expect and want such public displays of deterrence. India has had an image of a soft state for too long and it percolates worldwide. Covert operations can continue in private, but the occasional high profile slap is picked up and amplified on the international scene as a clear message, that India is no longer a Gandhian pacifist wimp whom everyone can pick on.
Last edited by Karan M on 13 Jun 2015 23:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby SwamyG » 13 Jun 2015 23:05

YashG:

Dissecting the episode into 4 neat and convenient categories:
1. Military operation.
2. GoI claiming credit.
3. Message to Pakistan.
4. Message to China and Rest of the World.

#1 happened impeccably and is inspirational. Even if there were operational flaws, we will not come to know about them. #2 a political party needs to claim the credit, if things went wrong they would have got the flak. So Modi Sarkar needs the due credit. #2 and #3 had to be done.

It is not enough that the robbers (Pakistan and China) alone are scared of the cops (Indian Army + Civilian Government) and factor (bake in) them during their burglary. The aam admi (citizens of India) need to know the cops (Army + GoI) are competent and doing their job. For this Cops have to routinely show case their actions and policies and conduct measures to increase the confidence among people. And sometimes the Cops need to build self confidence measures too.

The only thing that matters is how miffed Burma is with the messaging. If feathers were ruffled and undies were twisted, I think India should soothe their feelings. Burma is key for NE India and South East Asia. Long term Burma has to be firmly in the Indic fold. Give Burmese military, population and politicians what they need to cover their base and face. It is totally Chankian to ask for a heartfelt apology and move on.
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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby ramana » 13 Jun 2015 23:50

shiv, Even Though your reply is to rebut one member it also effectively rebuts all others who have same mind view. In end who do you want to believe. A trusted source or someone who has consistently tried to undermine govt authority regardless of which govt (UPA or NDA) is in power?

Gautam Sen once wrote in 1996 an article about trouble with third world liberals is they toe the Western line against their own govts.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby ramana » 13 Jun 2015 23:51

AjayKK wrote:
Singha wrote:Khaplang had some wind of it and fled to Rangoon to seek treatment leaving his cannon fodder to take heat


North East militancy: Who controls NSCN-K chief SS Khaplang

Vicky Nanjappa

http://www.oneindia.com/feature/north-e ... 76255.html



Congress moles in govt tipped him off so camp was empty.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby milindc » 13 Jun 2015 23:54

#ModiSarkar is all about optics, and that is one of the core strategy to inculcate positive vibes into Janta.
Changing the base GDP numbers is one such case which has generated 'feel good' on the economy, and that is key for increased confidence. Most of the things ModiSarkar is doing will center around the optics with intermittent big reforms throw in.

Everything has been to re-package, re-market and re-brand most of the existing policies and take the project management and implementation to a higher level similar to how Ambanis executed the refinery business. No one in India would have imagined opening 15cr bank accounts but ModiSarkar drove the banks, and CMD/ED performance of PSUs was dependent on that metric. Bank babus are whining about opening accounts for Jan Dhan and Bima policies but the on-ground execution has been flawless.

Coming back to optics on Myanmar, you need to check the Whatsapp messages to believe the impact of the Raid and confidence building exercise for Janta. Janta now firmly believes ModiSarkar will be tough on anti-nationals. Number of Whatsapp Jokes on Congress/MMS related to the Raid are just amazing. Even folks I bracket as liberal leaning or pro AAP were forwarding or commenting on Raid. Instead of Twitter, Facebook, and English MSM, one needs to monitor the 'Whatsapp' as barometer of public opinion. There are still very few jokes on AccheDin and if that happens then the tide starts to turn against ModiSarkar.

To me the optics on the raid was all about internal politics and morale, and I personally wouldn't care less about how Myanmar felt, they can be assuaged. This was another perfect exercise to showcase how #ModiSarkar is different than Congress, and hence instead of Myanmar or Pakistan, the folks most rattled by this Raid and associated optics are Congress and the liberal scum.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby ramana » 14 Jun 2015 00:13

milindc, dhanyavaad for your insight. Is there a way to data mine Whatsapp messages? And create a webpage showing trends? If an one can do it its you!!!

SwamyG, Put those four categories in a table and spread the message.

Structured Analytic process.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby member_29112 » 14 Jun 2015 00:16

The editorial of Bangalore's Deccan Herald.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/483148/dont-brag-covert-operations.html
Unfortunately, some unpleasant chest-thumping and boasting by ministers of the Narendra Modi government have followed up a professionally executed military operation. This is likely to negate all the gains made by India’s diplomats in building warm relations with the neighbours. Minister of State for Information and Broadcasting, Rajyavardhan Rathore’s comment that Prime Minister Narendra Modi ordered the operation “deep” into Myanmar territory has embarrassed the Myanmar government and put it in a spot. After all, which country would like to be seen to have allowed foreign troops to operate on its soil or not responded robustly to this violation of its territorial sovereignty? To tom-tom the entry of Indian forces into Myanmar is insensitive, foolish and counter-productive. Not only does it reinforce India’s image as the neighbourhood bully but also it is short-sighted. Next time India wants Myanmar’s help in countering terrorism, it may not get the helping hand it has received hitherto.


This has set off a war of words and Pakistan’s Senate has passed a resolution condemning India’s “provocative and hostile” statements that reflect a “hegemonic mindset.” The Modi government seems keener on drawing political mileage out of the recent military operation than on systematically and quietly tackling terrorism in the country. In hot pursuit of publicity and public applause, it is forgetting that a covert operation should be executed quietly and not be boasted about. Modi’s ministerial colleagues need to pipe down immediately.

Clearly, the very reason why this operation was made public eludes them.

I worded a simple email stating why I believe their opinion is flawed. Hopefully (but highly unlikely) it will be published tomorrow.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby g.sarkar » 14 Jun 2015 00:18

chetak wrote:
Gernail Raheel ‏@GernailSaab Jun 10
One Myanmar Op and Indians going gaga uh? We pulled off many such ops w/o bothering about credit like 26/11, Kargil, Kandhar…grow up India!!

The Jernail is being modest, he did not mention the greatest op Pakistan pulled, the victory of Pakistan over India in East Pakistan when over 90,000 Indian soldiers surrendered to Pakistani forces.
Gautam

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby ramana » 14 Jun 2015 00:27

hsrada wrote:The editorial of Bangalore's Deccan Herald.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/483148/dont-brag-covert-operations.html
Unfortunately, some unpleasant chest-thumping and boasting by ministers of the Narendra Modi government have followed up a professionally executed military operation. This is likely to negate all the gains made by India’s diplomats in building warm relations with the neighbours. {Its govt that builds warm relations with neighbors. Not diplomats on theri own. Look at the acrimony in mid 1980s with Nepal while Rajiv was in charge.}Minister of State for Information and Broadcasting, Rajyavardhan Rathore’s comment that Prime Minister Narendra Modi ordered the operation “deep” into Myanmar territory has embarrassed the Myanmar government and put it in a spot. After all, which country would like to be seen to have allowed foreign troops to operate on its soil or not responded robustly to this violation of its territorial sovereignty? {It was clearly stated Myanmar India have a treaty to combat terrorism. So where is the embarrassment? Already despite so much secrecy one camp was empty. Most likely due to fellow travellers. investigate that.} To tom-tom the entry of Indian forces into Myanmar is insensitive, foolish and counter-productive. Not only does it reinforce India’s image as the neighbourhood bully but also it is short-sighted. Next time India wants Myanmar’s help in countering terrorism, it may not get the helping hand it has received hitherto.


This has set off a war of words and Pakistan’s Senate has passed a resolution condemning India’s “provocative and hostile” statements that reflect a “hegemonic mindset.” :rotfl: The Modi government seems keener on drawing political mileage out of the recent military operation than on systematically and quietly tackling terrorism in the country. In hot pursuit of publicity and public applause, it is forgetting that a covert operation should be executed quietly and not be boasted about.{Or like UPA not at all! So no one finds out as its seceret!} Modi’s ministerial colleagues need to pipe down immediately.

Clearly, the very reason why this operation was made public eludes them.

I worded a simple email stating why I believe their opinion is flawed. Hopefully (but highly unlikely) it will be published tomorrow.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby prahaar » 14 Jun 2015 01:55

g.sarkar wrote:'
Gernail Raheel ‏@GernailSaab Jun 10
One Myanmar Op and Indians going gaga uh? We pulled off many such ops w/o bothering about credit like 26/11, Kargil, Kandhar…grow up India!!

The Jernail is being modest, he did not mention the greatest op Pakistan pulled, the victory of Pakistan over India in East Pakistan when over 90,000 Indian soldiers surrendered to Pakistani forces.
Gautam


That account is a parody account AFAICT.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby fanne » 14 Jun 2015 03:08

One other factor we have not discussed. The Anti India forces (TSP, Chicoms, terrorists and journalist, yes journalist) did not see anything big (as in counter anti-national moves) from Modi in the last one year. They see border cross firing, implementing anti-NGO laws, GC incidents, still playing by the rule book. As it is, India only retaliated against cross border mostly (more ferociously), anti-NGO law getting implemented is from UPA rule book (no law saying that ban all NGO forever that promotes conversion), or GC ship blowing (though little inconvenient), they were blowing imminent 26/11 type attacks.
They thought Modi has been put in his 'spot'. He has not moved against known and high corruption of the Vadras, or bribes to Miano family to influence arms deal, or overt wrong playing of intellectuals and persstitutes (Tehlja chief still takes elevators or uses his fingers), or even corrupt businessman......So Modi has been cut to size. The presstitutes or these businessman would be now thinking upping the ante. Perhaps Coupta can again go to TSP and claim ISI should leave GOI to him, he would fix it (as he said about ABV govt)
Then comes this raid against NSCN-K. Their model of Modi would have suggested, he would simply kill some 2-5 separatist, and be done with it. But he goes beyond that, goes and give a totally out of the box reply. A punishment well deserving and delivered with extreme prejudice. This has upset many anti national forces (including the 5th estate). Now they are running scared. Not sure if they cross the redline, what would happen. Is Modi really the monster of their dream? This squealing has also this angle.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Prem » 14 Jun 2015 03:39

By raiding the raiders and send signal to other baiters,after customary one year of waiting and watching , Modi administration have now started demonstrating its no longer old UlluBatta UPA Sir-Kaarr but new Modi -Savarkar .

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby shiv » 14 Jun 2015 07:29

I need to ask a question about one of the most idiotic words used too often by Indian reporters "XYZ was embarrassed"

"Government embarrassed"
"Indian Army red-faced"
"Myanmar embarrassed"

The Indian press has a habit of talking about the emotional component of events rather than the actual event. "India afraid of Taliban". "Army worried about militant attack" "Air Force anxious as Rafales do not appear" "Indian journalists cheerful even as they roam bareassed"

I think we as readers need to understand the difference between news and a imaginary or speculative commentary on the various possible emotions associated with news.

News event: "Dr Sharma, famous sexologist passed away last night. He was 101"
Emotional component: "HarDon Hospital settled into a pall of gloom last night with the totally unexpected news of Dr Sharma's death."

You see, if Myanmar has Indian terrorists in its territory who should be embarrassed? Myanmar should be embarrassed if it is a friendly nation. If Myanmar could take out those terrorists it should, but if it cannot take them out then India will have to do that. When India eliminated terrorist in Myanmar soil that Mynamar should not have had in the first place wtf difference does it make whether Myanmar is embarrassed after the event? If they were helpless before the event they might have asked for help. If they did not they deserve to be embarrassed.

Why am i seeing media discussion on "embarrassment". Are these media people such morons? Are we morons too?

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby SwamyG » 14 Jun 2015 08:25

Both G.Parthasarthy and M.K.Bhadrakumar have said that since elections are coming in Myanmar; this is a sensitive issue to some of the leaders. Bhadrakumar said on NDTV that Myanmar Constitution has something regarding foreign military forces on its soil, so India sending military forces into Burmese territory makes Burma answerable to its citizens. They talked about Burmese having to redact/take back some statement or two.

What surprised me is when did Burmese leaders or military care about its own citizens in such a way to feel embarrassed? Indo-Burmese cooperation is well known - Pakistan, China and Amirika would know more about this. And Burma has not said anything official about it. So where is the media getting the information from? Forer diplomats and experts?


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