Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Jun 2015 08:36

vina wrote:
a mass funeral military style of 19 at one place with buddhish priests being called in

I thought the Nagas were Baptists , converted enmasse by Brit/NZ and American missionaries in the late 19th Century.

Same question. Pretty strange to have ppl sitting around chanting Buddham Saranam Gatchaami around a rotting pile of terrorist carrion.
Also about their leader being in Rangoon - Myanmar being a military govt, what is their takleef in catching the bugger and handing him over? PRC pressure?

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby SaiK » 14 Jun 2015 09:05

Taken by surprise in Myanmar
Published June 14, 2015 | By admin
SOURCE: LIVEMINT

http://idrw.org/taken-by-surprise-in-myanmar/


In the past, the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Khaplang), or NSCN (K), had gotten away with ambushes on Indian Army personnel. But this time was different.
In April, the group had targeted a 4 Rajput Regiment convoy in Tirap district of Arunachal Pradesh, killing three Army personnel and injuring four. Yet, it did not suffer any major retribution from India. Slipping away easily across a porous border into Myanmar, the group continued to plan attacks on the Army and succeeded on 4 June to inflict a major blow on the 6 Dogra Regiment, killing 18 of its personnel. Trusting earlier patterns of no targeted,
intelligence-based special operations by India, after its ambush, NSCN (K) targeted an Assam Rifles camp on 7 June at Lazu, also in Tirap district. This attack was thwarted with no casualties.

But NSCN (K) committed a fatal error during its 4 June ambush.
It quickly claimed responsibility for the attacks in the belief that Myanmar and its ungoverned border areas offered the group a safe retreat from where it could plan similar attacks in the future. The Indian military’s special operation on 9 June shattered that myth. Based on available intelligence of where NSCN (K) had established camps in Myanmar, the 21 para troopers (a special operations force) were airlifted by the Indian Air Force’s M-35 helicopters across the India-Myanmar border and succeeded in killing 22 insurgents, including those involved in the 4 June attack. Whether S.S. Khaplang, the man after whom the group is named, has been killed or injured, we do not know yet, but several other leaders of the outfit, including self-styled finance minister Starson Lamkang who was involved in the 4 June attack, as well as other Meitei insurgents have been killed. The element of surprise and speed were of utmost importance as any hint of the operation would have alerted the insurgents, ensuring they dispersed deeper into Myanmar’s jungles.
What does this bold operation achieve? First, it has sent a strong message to groups such as NSCN (K), the Kanglei Yawol Kanna Lup (KYKL) and the Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP), which had also claimed responsibility for the 4 June attack, that Myanmar does not offer a safe haven. This would deter ambushes in the near future. Second, the operation shows that India’s efforts to ensure Myanmar’s cooperation in helping identify and root out northeast insurgent camps appears to have borne some fruit. Third, it demonstrates the importance of specialized operations, similar to the one that led to the killing of Osama bin Laden in 2011. 8)

What more needs to be done? There have been reports of telephone intercepts between China’s People’s Liberation Army officers and Khaplang by Indian intelligence sources. A former PLA colonel, Muk Yan Pau Huang, had actively helped in arming NSCN (K). Huang is credited with helping Khaplang clinch the ceasefire with the Myanmar government in April 2012. Being a former member of the Communist Party of Burma (CPB), Muk Yan Pau Huang enjoys credible influence in northeast Myanmar close to the Chinese border and with the Myanmar government.
This is one of the most serious security issues India faces: the extended implicit, if not overt links, that China has with northeast insurgents, specifically the deep, long-term relationship the United Wa State Army has with China.
UWSA is the largest source of weapons for northeast insurgents, including NSCN (K). UWSA is the military wing of the United Wa State Party (UWSP) founded in 1989 with members of Wa National Council (WNC), which represents the Wa ethnic group and former members of the CPB.
UWSA declared its own Wa State Government Special Administrative Region within Myanmar on 1 January 2009, but is not recognized by the government of Myanmar. Wa territories are completely under the Chinese radar. Because of the absence of a written script, the Wa State government conducts its official activities in Chinese.
Most commodities within the Wa State are from China and the renminbi is the currency of exchange. The Chinese Phoenix TV is very popular and the cellular phone network is dominated by China Mobile. Even Chinese postal codes are used for mail delivery. For China, the links to UWSA are of prime strategic importance, even more so than the bilateral relationship with the democratizing Myanmar government.
Breaking these covert Chinese connections with insurgent groups such as UWSA, with the help of Myanmar is crucial for the long-term stability of northeast India.
In counter-insurgency situations of this nature, it is necessary to not only strengthen governance in affected areas, but also destroy sources of weapons for insurgents that are easily transported porous borders. In the coming weeks, India should be prepared for reactions from insurgents to the special operation in Myanmar.
They will be out to seek revenge, and we should be alert.

Namrata Goswami is research fellow at the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses


indication of chinese involvement
and fear running under paki chaddies

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby member_28788 » 14 Jun 2015 09:08

@Karan M ("First, GOI has to be seen to do stuff. The public expects and wants action. ") and SwamyG ("The aam admi (citizens of India) need to know the cops (Army + GoI) are competent and doing their job."), so we agree that the public posturing's primary audience was internal?

I was only taken aback by the manner and not the matter.

When you say along the border, keep it that way in official PR. Unofficially whatsapp and all were already talking about it that it was across border.

And while doing it not sound like a teenager at atleast (why invoke chestsizes :eek: when disclosing the news? Since RR gave the official briefing and unofficially invoked chest sizes elsewhere - it all looked the same thread) looks kiddish all the more when it was well planned. Our PR should be impeccable like a world power and not a new kid on the block eager to show his wares. If we've arrived lets act like one.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Rahul M » 14 Jun 2015 09:14

UlanBatori wrote:Same question. Pretty strange to have ppl sitting around chanting Buddham Saranam Gatchaami around a rotting pile of terrorist carrion.
Also about their leader being in Rangoon - Myanmar being a military govt, what is their takleef in catching the bugger and handing him over? PRC pressure?

many myanmarese army personnel get hefty hafta from the terror groups. in addition there are OG groups that have some amount of influence in naapidaw.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Altair » 14 Jun 2015 09:40

Image

This is the guy Khaplang having treatment in the hospital in Yangon. Look at his lieutenants and their arms. Pretty organized and thorough.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby srin » 14 Jun 2015 10:00

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/lift-the-fog-on-the-operation/article7310192.ece
The fog is still to lift on the operation the Indian forces undertook against militant camps inside Myanmar territory bordering Manipur as the Narendra Modi government finds itself dealing with the fallout of certain comments made by one of its Ministers. Minister of State for Information and Broadcasting Rajyavardhan Singh Rathore’s statement that the operation was a message to all countries inimical to India, predictably set off a furore in Pakistan. At a time when India-Pakistan relations are at a standstill with no sign of a dialogue in sight, levels of rhetoric have risen, much of it coming from Pakistan. Traditionally, “hot pursuit” is a term that has raised Pakistan’s hackles. After the nuclear tests in 1998, senior Minister L.K. Advani’s remarks on “hot pursuit” elicited a high-decibel response from Pakistan. This time, besides a resolution in the Pakistan Senate, the Prime Minister, the Interior Minister and the Chief of the Army Staff have all gone hammer and tongs at India. It is unfortunate that the action in Myanmar has triggered a fresh slide in relations with Pakistan on account of breast-beating and credit-hunting by the Modi government. A robust response to the killing of 20 soldiers in Manipur on June 4 was called for, but safeguarding the space to conduct such operations in the future is also critical for India’s long-term strategy. As military analysts have pointed out, the June 9 operation is not the first of its kind undertaken by the Indian Army — which as a force will continue to need the support of the Myanmar authorities. So, while guarding the sanctity of India’s borders and the lives of its soldiers and citizens, the long-term strategy must be to erode the militant strength. In fact, that must be the single-point strategic agenda.

India’s national interest must be kept paramount. Short-term political gains coming from loud statements of the kind made by Mr. Rathore can only damage India’s image and risk antagonising a neighbour like Myanmar. Interestingly, the Minister used the hashtag #ManipurRevenge while sending out Twitter messages about the operation. Such sentiments, even when they come from a junior Minister, cannot be condoned. At all times the necessary distinction between the actions of a state and those of a terror organisation must be kept in mind. Reports in the Manipur media suggest that so far the local police have not received any report on the Army operation; nor have any bodies of militants been handed over to them. Given the claims made by the government, it is essential that evidence of the “success” of such an operation be shared appropriately. Also, Delhi must reflect on why on such occasions tact and silence may help more than seeking credit and political capital publicly.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby hanumadu » 14 Jun 2015 10:31

Pakistan showed braggadocio in saying they are not Myanmar and India is not USA. What will happen if Indian special forces cross over, blow their terrorist camps and let the whole world know. Can you imagine what a pickle pakistan's govt and army would be in? If India does carry an operation across the border, what better way than to say it before hand and do it. RR's words will have a totally different meaning then.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Altair » 14 Jun 2015 11:00

Pakistan were forced to do certain things because of this Op.
1.Any future Indian Op and Paki Army will be undermined as today India has effectively given a early warning of things to come if they host terrorists. If Pakis had not given such statements they could have played victim card. Now they can't.
2.Pakis are forced to alter their military tactics and perhaps operational readiness in key sectors. This raises cost and compromises them in few areas. I am not a military expert but in cricket having an extra slip fielder and silly point will make few areas in field more vulnerable as batsmen will use open cover and long on for high scoring shots!!
3. Any current plans in motion to hurt India will have to be reconsidered as new doctrine will ensure reprisal.This complicates lot of things as logistics have to be replanned or rerouted. Money moved and Personnel deployed have to be diverted or contacted. Most of these are generally fire and forget types to avoid detection and loose ends.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby vikassh » 14 Jun 2015 11:54

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 658995.cms

This article from TOI quotes Mandeep Bajwa

Some points that come to my mind:

1. Whether government or any of the ministers or official ever said (officially) that it undertook such an operation ever for the first time in India's history?

2. One of the common premise is that we've alerted enemy. BUT any enemy in this world will be alerted once their cadres have been killed in a silent strike. And their strongest suspicion will be on the closest enemy. So what new we are learning. As a lay man even I know if I'll try to attack the enemy at the same point and in the same way then I am going to pay a price.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby chetak » 14 Jun 2015 12:10

hanumadu wrote:Pakistan showed braggadocio in saying they are not Myanmar and India is not USA. What will happen if Indian special forces cross over, blow their terrorist camps and let the whole world know. Can you imagine what a pickle pakistan's govt and army would be in? If India does carry an operation across the border, what better way than to say it before hand and do it. RR's words will have a totally different meaning then.


Their actual worry is that Modi is not MMS, not pakistan is not myanmar

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2015 12:44

only place where secrecy counts is covert ops deep in foreign countries, using assets and methods that cannot be revealed or would go against queensberry boxing rules.

5km across the border, it would hardly be BD sending a team across to ravage the place.

keeping quiet would only let the NSCN preserve H&D. they have been publicly slapped hard and told not sleep close to our borders now.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Austin » 14 Jun 2015 12:52

IF Modi actually carries such ops inside POK then that would be a threshold moment for us , Our SF would would give TSP larger body bags to count compared to Myanmar but till such time it actually happens it would be talk.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2015 12:58

the whole dark green area seems to be run by warlords whether loyal to themselves or to china or pro-rangoon militias

Image

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Singha » 14 Jun 2015 13:01

china is building a pipeline and railway cutting across the country to the arakan coast

http://www.idsa.in/idsacomments/ChinasP ... 00112.html

we need to develop our border infra for land trade and perhaps railway via BD to draw myanmar into our orbit....cheen seems to be trading furiously across the yunnan border, funding militias, bribing generals while we keep border closed except isolated points like moreh.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby SaiK » 14 Jun 2015 15:35

hanumadu wrote:Pakistan showed braggadocio in saying they are not Myanmar and India is not USA. What will happen if Indian special forces cross over, blow their terrorist camps and let the whole world know. Can you imagine what a pickle pakistan's govt and army would be in? If India does carry an operation across the border, what better way than to say it before hand and do it. RR's words will have a totally different meaning then.

do it covert, video record and create a nice movie ishtyle presentation and keep it ready. make multiple ops.. over a period of time.

release it later.. say before a big political thump on them. at least a year or two, selective photos and slowly videos, and then the final bang on presentation. that is called slicing the terrorists slowly and painfully.

while you do this, you have other ops going on and working great! never show how you did it, but only what you did with lotsa massalas [don't hesitate to do a bollywood item as well, disco and at the end a local police claim ops success and seek benefits] :rotfl: .

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby SwamyG » 14 Jun 2015 16:51

This is the guy Khaplang having treatment in the hospital in Yangon. Look at his lieutenants and their arms. Pretty organized and thorough.

He is in soot boot? Looks like a NBA coach while the players are in uniform.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Kanson » 14 Jun 2015 17:47

YashG wrote:@Karan M ("First, GOI has to be seen to do stuff. The public expects and wants action. ") and SwamyG ("The aam admi (citizens of India) need to know the cops (Army + GoI) are competent and doing their job."), so we agree that the public posturing's primary audience was internal?

I was only taken aback by the manner and not the matter.

When you say along the border, keep it that way in official PR. Unofficially whatsapp and all were already talking about it that it was across border.

And while doing it not sound like a teenager at atleast (why invoke chestsizes :eek: when disclosing the news? Since RR gave the official briefing and unofficially invoked chest sizes elsewhere - it all looked the same thread) looks kiddish all the more when it was well planned. Our PR should be impeccable like a world power and not a new kid on the block eager to show his wares. If we've arrived lets act like one.


I'm not sure what your stand is....

First you say, "so we agree that the public posturing's primary audience was internal?" - it is for internal audience. Then you disapprove invoking 'chestsize'. If it is all for internal audience where is the problem. To whom it looks kidddish? Media, aam admi, 5 star activists, congress or army? Is that chestsize first time used? It is a catchy word to make people identify with and in a way promote and spread intentions of this Gov. Is it not Modi said, he will bring back izzat to Armed forces?

"PR should be impeccable like a world power and not a new kid on the block eager to show his wares" - New kid to whom? To Indians? "new kid on the block" - definitely not to Indians, as per your statement. From you statement you implicitly concede that you want India to behave like any world power do. In other words, you want the message to seen and hear by other countries and it has to be as "impeccable like a world power". If this is what you desire, does the message by the Gov/Minister is only for internal audience or both, internal & external audience?

In reality it is for both internal and external audience. Putin said even worse things. No one calls his statement as kiddish.

In diplomacy, people say, every move is noted and interpreted. Gov tried to highlight an action which taken place in foreign soil. And blown its own trumpet, in liquidating militants inimical to India/Indians supported by foreign elements in foreign soil. Further, minister to a question on Pak clearly stated, whoever it may be, we will act. After all this, how can anyone say, the message from the Gov. is not for external audience?
Last edited by Kanson on 14 Jun 2015 18:08, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby vasu raya » 14 Jun 2015 18:16

Now that the Indian Special forces set a visible benchmark, one would expect them to go full hog, engage the foreign elements on foreign soil upto the Burma-China border, our special forces should co-opt with them and give them the military strength to engage insurgents, maybe choppers, intelligence, joint ops.

Chinese should be engaged by punching their puppets so that they don't develop a misplaced complex that they can take on the Indian forces alongside the Tibet border

As far as packees go, one statement that all this was only possible with the sincere cooperation from the Burmese govt.,(praise them!) and should all neighbors cooperate, we can end this menace in South Asia

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby pankajs » 14 Jun 2015 18:28

Well if the previous talk was deliberate or a slip may not be clear but the government is not backing down.

ANI ‏@ANI_news 3h3 hours ago >>

* It is said attack is best form of defense.1 had to attack but in our country ppl have a problem with that:IB Minister
* Some journalists called me that I should not have tweeted on chappan inch chaati. Rajyavardhan Rathore, IB MOS
* Rajyavardhan Rathore, IB MOS : This was not a covert op. In covert op, soldiers don't wear uniform: Mr Rathore MOS
* in this operation, it was overt, our soldiers were in uniform, TV journalists should know all this : Rajyavardhan Rathore MoS IB
* Attack was somewhere else but pain was felt elsewhere, Pakistan reacted, their PM also made a statement: Rathore, MoS
* why even General Musharraf gave a threatening statement! He barely got permission to enter his own country,threatened India: Mr Rathore, MoS

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Kanson » 14 Jun 2015 18:48

Further to my above post,

As in 9/11 World Trade Center attack, in manipur case too militants residing in foreign soil with help of foreign elements attacked India. We pursued them to foreign soil as done by USA.

After attack on World Trade center, did George Bush, then President of USA, secretly & silently concocted & conducted military campaign to hunt those terrorists who did that diabolical act?

Did he gave a terse, not-so-kiddish, very diplomatic statement, thinking on one hand what other countries may think about them and further not to look as "new kid on the block"? Did he?

" And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. "
- Does it sounds kiddish too?

Compared to this, how many members of this forum thinks, the way our Gov reacted in this episode is NOT "impeccable like a world power"?

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby shiv » 14 Jun 2015 18:59

Of course the next time Pakis create some trouble they will do it with heightened defences and their own forces ready for retaliation. That of course has its own consequences because it will create more comm traffic which Intel Agencies will pick up.

Destroying a camp with SF is heroic and precise. Pakis need a few salvos of SMERCH and be done with it.

The usual Indian mofos who criticize anything that looks like action or belligerence will go apeshit.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby morem » 14 Jun 2015 20:15



Are these guys serious , the soldier's name and address , out on the internet ? :shock:

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Hari Seldon » 14 Jun 2015 20:17

One good thing this action has done is bring 'em termites crawling outta the woodwork. Both within and outside GoI, IMHO. That itself has advantages.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby SwamyG » 14 Jun 2015 21:04

YashG wrote:@Karan M ("First, GOI has to be seen to do stuff. The public expects and wants action. ") and SwamyG ("The aam admi (citizens of India) need to know the cops (Army + GoI) are competent and doing their job."), so we agree that the public posturing's primary audience was internal?

I was only taken aback by the manner and not the matter.

When you say along the border, keep it that way in official PR. Unofficially whatsapp and all were already talking about it that it was across border.

And while doing it not sound like a teenager at atleast (why invoke chestsizes :eek: when disclosing the news? Since RR gave the official briefing and unofficially invoked chest sizes elsewhere - it all looked the same thread) looks kiddish all the more when it was well planned. Our PR should be impeccable like a world power and not a new kid on the block eager to show his wares. If we've arrived lets act like one.

No, internal audience was NOT ONLY the primary audience. The audience were:
1. Militants.
2. Indian citizens
3. Pakistan
4. China and Rest of the World.

56" chest size could have been avoided; that I agree is juvenile. So Army+GoI does 10 good things and we focus on 1 wrong thing? Hey I do not like several desi movies, but mass love them and lap them like crazy. So does my sensitivity override millions of others?

GoI did not lie, it did not commit a crime, it did not act inhumanely, it did not do any thing unethical, it did not betray the trust bestowed by citizens, it did not betray trust of Burma, there was no corruption, no nepotism, no scam......just some bragging. If there was bragging along with the aforementioned activities then there is a case.

Army acted beautifully, professionally and humanely. The top dogs ensured there was no civilian casualty and avoid all collateral damages. So Army followed all dharma of Indic standards, GoI supported the Army. It just takes the political credit.....after all Army does not fight elections political parties do elections. Modi and BJP are going to be questioned in the next elections. There is absolutely no wrong in tom tomming the policies.

So somebody spoke of 56" chest size? Shrug, moan, smile and move on. Think of it as an item song in the movie "Wednesday". Unnecessary, but some enjoy it. Secretly we all enjoy the item song, it is just that we do not admit it publicly. :rotfl: There is a joy in rubbing it in. And that is precisely what the Col. did, everybody knows it.

Mirchi lagi to ham kya karae? :mrgreen:

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Karan M » 14 Jun 2015 21:09

YashG wrote:@Karan M ("First, GOI has to be seen to do stuff. The public expects and wants action. ") and SwamyG ("The aam admi (citizens of India) need to know the cops (Army + GoI) are competent and doing their job."), so we agree that the public posturing's primary audience was internal?


No we don't. You are picking and choosing what you want to read, and that makes for a pointless reply. The audience was internal and external both. You have merely picked one of my points regarding the internal audience. And ignored the external one. Why?

I was only taken aback by the manner and not the matter.

When you say along the border, keep it that way in official PR. Unofficially whatsapp and all were already talking about it that it was across border.


Why? If the GOI made a conscious choice to publicize the cross border op, call it what it is.

And while doing it not sound like a teenager at atleast (why invoke chestsizes :eek: when disclosing the news? Since RR gave the official briefing and unofficially invoked chest sizes elsewhere - it all looked the same thread) looks kiddish all the more when it was well planned. Our PR should be impeccable like a world power and not a new kid on the block eager to show his wares. If we've arrived lets act like one.


Its kiddish to you, because you can't understand the messaging strategy. Again, THINK it through. The message has to be to the internal audience and external both. The internal one wants a tough, no nonsense PM- the 56inch one appeals to them. The external one gets the difficulty of the op PLUS the political tough choice (and decision taken). Both achieved, which is where the media is so upset.

The rest of your new kid on the block stuff is to be honest equally subjective. Is it childish when Hollywood releases movies about SEALS and what not to glorify them? Is it super sophisticated compared to having GI Joe statuettes or Transformers showing Marines and what not, fighting giant robots with laughably ineffective 5.56mm guns?

Or is it that PR is multifaceted and targeted at different audiences at different levels.

This Govt gets it. Clearly you don't. Try to understand who is the more sophisticated here and is bypassing the traditional oh so sophisticated ELM by using whatsapp et al and speaking to multiple levels with multiple "languages".

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Karan M » 14 Jun 2015 21:11



The Indian media is insane. At least this journalist is not one of the slimeballs like Swami et al, but this is the heights of irresponsibility to give such details.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Karan M » 14 Jun 2015 21:15

Austin wrote:IF Modi actually carries such ops inside POK then that would be a threshold moment for us , Our SF would would give TSP larger body bags to count compared to Myanmar but till such time it actually happens it would be talk.


Why? Is there some rulebook that says Modi or Doval or other agencies can't use different methods?
Focus, the messaging by Modi and co, re: this strike is not the method but that a counter attack will be done, Parrikar's choice of words were clearly considered and not off the cuff given what we saw here with Myanmar. There are a hundred tools to deal with POK, they will be used .. that's the key takeaway.
So when Doval says another 26/11, Pakistan will face the heat in Balochistan etc, that doesn't mean a Corps level invasion of the region either.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Altair » 14 Jun 2015 21:17

Modi Govt has got the perfect posturing and attitude to deal with the dumbass media we have. I completely agree with the manner and style of the Govt's media policy.
You guys rock!! Keep it going!!..The joke is on the left leaning convent educated types who haven't got it yet.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby RamaY » 14 Jun 2015 21:22

chetak wrote:Their actual worry is that Modi is not MMS, not pakistan is not myanmar


+1008.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby ldev » 14 Jun 2015 21:43

The ultimate special op for India will be to abduct Dawood from Pakistan and bring him to India to face a public trial and justice.....

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby member_29112 » 14 Jun 2015 21:48

ldev wrote:The ultimate special op for India will be to abduct Dawood from Pakistan and bring him to India to face a public trial and justice.....


Our justice system is too slow. It would be better to neutralise him and release a press statement before Pakistan realizes what hit them. :mrgreen:

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby chetak » 14 Jun 2015 22:12

hsrada wrote:
ldev wrote:The ultimate special op for India will be to abduct Dawood from Pakistan and bring him to India to face a public trial and justice.....


Our justice system is too slow. It would be better to neutralise him and release a press statement before Pakistan realizes what hit them. :mrgreen:


guys, have some consideration for state electricity boards. hang him from the lamp post. no statement required

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby SriKumar » 14 Jun 2015 22:15

I wondered why Pakistan (govt.) had any need to provide a public response to this operation; after all their official stance is that they provide only moral and diplomatic support to freedom fighters, and nothing more than that. By giving a statement on the Myanmar operation, I see it as being tantamount to an admission that they have camps on their soil. I think the audience for their statements is really not GOI or India, but the non-state actors who reside and train within their boundaries.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby sanjaykumar » 14 Jun 2015 22:39

Well put.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Karan M » 15 Jun 2015 00:03

SwamyG wrote:56" chest size could have been avoided; that I agree is juvenile.


SwamyG, it wasn't juvenile.You see it would have been juvenile (that bus passed a long time back) when these slogans werent used in electioneering and raised out of context They were and the media/INC/AAP types have been busy running a campaign raking up 56" and contrasting it with x,y,z issue. Soldiers died in J&K. 56"? And so forth. Hence the deliberate decision to raise this slogan in such a manner for such a topic. A message is being given subtly and not so subtly, despite the english media doing its best to counter it, that this is a nationalist govt, be proud, things have changed. Rathore sir was given a task and like a soldier he carried it out, zero fuss.

Let our usual folks (not you) start tut tuting at talk of how optics matter etc.
The SEAL Team6 op at Abbotabad was also similar. It allowed Obama to do the tough job of an Afghan drawdown without being called a defeatist etc and also kept Unkils rep. as a superpower in places that matter (US allies and MUNNAs) who were pensive about declining days of US empire.

In our case, we have announced to our neighbours over the past year we do matter and we can make things happen. Nepal ops, Yemen ops and this. All had an element of high profile communications but they also were built on a core of real capability.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby member_29112 » 15 Jun 2015 01:20

This is a funny article from Faking News but its not completely fiction: http://www.fakingnews.firstpost.com/2015/06/we-are-not-like-myanmar-our-terrorists-are-the-best-in-the-world-pak-warns-india/

Pakistani interior minister issued a statement yesterday evening and said, “India should understand that we are not like Myanmar, our brand of terrorism is truly world class. You can’t just enter our territory like you did in Myanmar and kill our militants. Our ammunition is better and our militants are trained at par with our army, sometimes trained even better. At times we can’t even decide if our armymen are militants or militants are armymen. :rotfl: So India should be beware of us.”


“Also in Pakistan we have complete alignment between state, army and terrorists. We all know what we are going to do when. So state and non-state actors are totally arms in arms with each other.”

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Rakesh » 15 Jun 2015 01:51

People's respect for Indian Army has reduced because of lack of wars
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-people-s-respect-for-indian-army-has-reduced-because-of-lack-of-wars-manohar-parrikar-2095644

Rathore on the other hand, targeted former Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf for his comments that his country's nuclear weapons were not meant for use on Shab-e-Baraat, an oblique warning to India. "General Musharraf saab cannot enter his own house how he would enter India," he said, referring to treason charges slapped against the former Pakistani dictator. "Chot kahin aur mari dard kahin aur huya. We warned that whoever harbours terrorism should be afraid. So why Pakistan spoke up?" he said, reacting to Pakistan's response to India's operation in Myanmar.


Parrikar is not endorsing war, but Pakistan has definitely been put on notice. While Parrikar is quick to dismiss war, one can now expect surgical strikes in Pakistan as well. Time to call their nuclear bluff...they don't have the balls for it.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Karan M » 15 Jun 2015 03:12

Scroll.in - another GOI hating leftist loon website, so not posting the link, but Saikat Datta's take on what happened. Surprising they carried this article which doesnt mock GOI and the Indian Army, looks like it accidentally got through their editors.

Why the Modi government decided to deliberately leak information about the Myanmar strikes
A behind-the-scenes reconstruction of the daring Special Forces attacks on North Eastern rebel groups.

Saikat Datta · Jun 12, 2015 · 09:08 am
Why the Modi government decided to deliberately leak information about the Myanmar strikes

At approximately 2.45 am on June 9, two teams from the 21 Para (Special Forces) quietly slipped into Myanmar on foot ‒ one team entering from Manipur and the other from Nagaland ‒ heading towards insurgent training camps of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Khaplang) group.

Code named Operation Peace 1 in the Manipur sector and Operation Peace 2 in Nagaland, this was a carefully deliberated act of retaliation for the insurgent attack in Manipur that killed 18 soldiers of a Dogra battalion on June 4. The Indian army had not seen such high casualties in over a decade and the Indian government was clearly looking for options to retaliate quickly.


The National Security Adviser, AK Doval, a former director of the Intelligence Bureau with years of experience in the North East, was clear that a surgical strike against the insurgents was the only option left for India. A few days before the operation took off, Doval went into a huddle with the Union home and defence ministers and the two intelligence chiefs – Dineshwar Sharma of the IB and Rajinder Khanna of the Research and Analysis Wing – to finalise the retaliatory strike.

Among the options that were examined was a surgical strike by the Indian Air Force, using precision guided missiles launched from the Indian side into Myanmar. However, the option was quickly dismissed since it could easily be construed as an act of war and could lead to heavy civilian casualties. The six key people involved in the planning agreed that the retaliation had to be manageable but deadly enough to establish New Delhi’s intent to hit back at the insurgents with precision on their turf.


Mutual co-operation

Khanna, who took over as the R&AW Chief in December, had led the agency’s counter-terrorism operations for over a decade and served for several years in Myanmar. As the senior Indian intelligence official posted in Myanmar, he helped build key relationships for cooperation on counter-terrorism between the two nations. The Myanmar military junta was keen to seek India’s cooperation to deal with the Rohingyas and the Kachins who would frequently slip into India after inflicting casualties on the Myanmar army. In return, India sought help to deal with the Naga, Meitei and Assamese insurgents that frequently used Myanmar to hit India targets in the North East. In the days preceding the June 9 raid, Doval would frequently consult Khanna, looking for options to conduct a retaliatory raid.

After much deliberation, the five decision-makers sat down with army chief, Dalbir Singh Suhag, to finalise a plan to use the Indian military to conduct the retaliatory strike. Doval also contended that since the Indian Army had suffered casualties, it was their prerogative to strike back at the militants. Khanna agreed and deployed his intelligence assets to identify the NSCN (K) camps that would be targeted.

The decision on who would hit the camps was a forgone conclusion. The only troops capable of carrying out such a delicate operation was secretive unit known as 21 Para (Special Forces).

Forging a new legacy

The success of the June 9 operation has demonstrated the need for India’s military to re-examine the use of its Special Forces. As the top security leadership grappled with options to retaliate against the insurgents, it fell on 21 Para (Special Forces) as the only unit to carry out such a delicate operation. A failure would mean international embarrassment, a major diplomatic fallout and embolden the insurgents to hit targets in India with impunity. At the very least, this could prove disastrous for the men who had been inserted covertly into Myanmar to carry out the operation.

In the early hours of June 9, a team from 21 Para (Special Forces) led by a veteran Manipuri officer entered Myanmar on foot from Manipur. Another team was launched simultaneously into Myanmar from Nagaland, to target a NSCN (K) camp in Aungzeya. The team led by the Manipuri officer headed for a PLA camp in the south, closer to the town of Kalaymyo. This was not the first time India’s Special Forces had slipped across an international border to hit strategic targets. In 1995, a team from 1 Para (Special Forces) was sent into Bangladesh to hit insurgent camps operating out of Sylhet district. Since 2000, retaliatory strikes have been regularly conducted across the Line of Control by Indian Special Forces to dissuade the Pakistani military from sending in militants into the Kashmir Valley.

But what distinguished the Myanmar operation was a deliberate strategy to leak out key details to signal intent. Deterrence is a key strategy that has driven military doctrines throughout history. It is not clear how and why the two insurgent camps were chosen for the assault. The NSCN (K) camp was deserted as the first team arrived, and found that the cadres had disappeared into the jungles fearing a strike.

A signal of intent

The other team found a sleepy but populated insurgent PLA camp that had been sending insurgents into Manipur for years. “The PLA was not behind the earlier attack on the Dogra battalion, but the intention was to ensure that a message goes out to all the insurgent groups,” according to a senior intelligence official familiar with the raid. By morning, as dawn broke, the Special Forces team had set out for the Indian border when several Dhruv helicopters from the Indian army’s aviation regiment took off to bring the troops back home.


For the first time, an Indian government took a strategic decision to deliberately leak the information about the operation to the world. Through carefully worded briefings and press releases, it made it clear in no uncertain terms that insurgent camps had been hit by Indian Special Forces. The decision to leak the news was preceded by intense discussions between the principal decision-makers. Finally, Doval’s argument convinced Prime Minister Narendra Modi that there was merit in leaking out the news informally. Doval argued, said officials familiar with the decision, that unless the intent and the reach was not publicised, India would never be able to establish deterrence. The US had released the transcript of a detailed briefing within hours of the Abbottabad raid that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011 for precisely the same reasons articulated by Doval. It wanted to signal its reach and intent to go after its enemies in faraway lands as a measure of deterrence.

Behind the scenes, Indian diplomats and intelligence officials posted in Yangon had already discussed the new strategy with their Myanmar counterparts. On June 9, Zaw Htay, director of the officer of President Thein Sein confirmed that an India military operation had been carried out in “close cooperation” with the Mynmar army. Clearly, the Bharatiya Janta Party government has signalled a new doctrine that it will take risks in pursuit of its new security strategy. For India’s Special Forces, this, in many ways, is a new legacy in the making.


Saikat Datta is the author of India’s Special Forces and a veteran journalist.

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Re: Joint Army/IAF Anti-Terrorist Cross Border Op into Myanm

Postby Karan M » 15 Jun 2015 03:17

In my first reply to YashG, I had noted this exact point.

Third, public statements of policy add to deterrence. They are meant to convey a public, non ambiguous message which track 2/3 morons and WKK cant repudiate.

Glad to see such is the case.


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