Re: Indian Army: News and Discussions 11 June 2014

niran · Post by **niran** » 12 Jun 2015 12:38

chetak wrote:

didn't some chota rajan type crooks attack some enemies in a thai hospital??

Could not the RAW task something like that on this khaplang creep??

the current Thai government arrested and promptly dispatched the paki coordinating the blown boat off Gujarat coast, since then the types have changed location and this is the reason this khaplang fellow is R&Ring in Yangon in place of Bangkok.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jun 2015 13:24

myanmar sure has a incredible diversity and spread of ethnic militias who rule belts of territory as a defacto govt , each ranging from 100s to 1000s. no other country outside the lslamic belt except perhaps colombia and lately mehico has so many militias.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 12 Jun 2015 16:28

Paid media workers already started writing - how small the operation is, how it is bad for india etc in papers today. Most of todays reports are in those lines.

Major mistake is being done by Anand Sharma who made stupid statement on this operation. I wonder if Con Mafia people have serious stake in Drug Trade which most of the NE criminal gangs are involved.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jun 2015 16:38

RamaY wrote:^^ That's where i disagree & even go to the extent of questioning our strategic geostrategic strategists!

Who told these people that Myanmar is offended/embarrassed by Indian operation? These people (I wish to call them names they deserve) are working hard to put the sense of insult in Myanmar's mind.

The reAL experts know a little more than JingO BRFites. As per him Myanmar had to retract their earlier statement and elections are coming.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 12 Jun 2015 16:47

http://m.firstpost.com/politics/how-56i ... 92678.html

Firstpost lists the problems of the messaging.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 12 Jun 2015 17:16

rkhanna wrote:Chest Thumping and 'Covert Operations'

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 635329.cms

This is all bs. Chest Thumping is also part of strategy. It is a fallacy to think that Myanmar willingly accepted Indian intervention inside its borders. Why can't it just kill all of them on their own?

The way you have to deal is both threat and goodies (carrot and stick). It is basically an indirect war against China in its poodle areas.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jun 2015 18:09

SwamyG wrote:http://m.firstpost.com/politics/how-56i ... 92678.html

Firstpost lists the problems of the messaging.

First it was about the action.
Now its about the messaging.

Truly commentary like in "Two men and Donkey" folk tale.

I think Firstpost is another DDM nest of snakes.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2015 18:51

The strategic implications of India’s cross-border raid -- by Nitin Pai

The Modi government’s challenge will be to quickly consolidate psychological and military gains from this conflict and use intelligence and political methods to prevent the need for such operations in the future.

What about the wider implications of this attack? First, militant groups operating on India’s frontiers and within India will have to reckon with the risk that New Delhi will more readily employ military force against them. Also, public opinion is largely supportive of the government taking a muscular approach to conflict management. Therefore, it is likely that they will have greater pause for thought before crossing thresholds of violence.

Second, it should be noted that New Delhi’s act was a punitive, retaliatory strike and not an unprovoked armed intervention in an ongoing conflict. It is an act of “offensive defence” which implicitly lays down a red line: New Delhi will not act with force if the line is not crossed (and, conversely, act decisively it it is). This position opens up space for negotiated settlement, albeit on terms favouring the Indian government.

Third, we should not immediately expect the Modi government to take an interventionist approach in conflicts in India’s subcontinental and maritime neighbourhood. New Delhi’s response to the arrest and incarceration of former Maldives’ pro-India president Mohamed Nasheed and the provocative rhetoric by President Yameen’s officials has been hands off, with a mild diplomatic rebuke at best. We should not therefore expect this week’s operation to indicate a new willingness in New Delhi to militarily intervene in neighbourhood’s domestic or international conflicts that do not have a direct bearing on India’s defence.

Fourth, there has been rhetoric–some deliberately employed by the Modi government’s politicians–suggesting that New Delhi could do the same vis-a-vis Pakistan should the need arise. Many analysts, especially Pakistani ones, have countered this by drawing attention to the nuclear angle and to the fact that unlike the Myanmarese government, Islamabad will not countenance an Indian military operation, even a limited targeted one involving special forces, on its soil. They are not wrong in this contention.

However, the Modi government’s highly publicised cross-border raid challenges the comfortable conclusions drawn by the Pakistani military-jihadi complex that they can carry out terrorist attacks against India with impunity, secure in the knowledge that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons will limit New Delhi’s response. India’s national security requires communicating to the malcontents in Pakistan that if New Delhi exercises restraint, it is by its own choice. India could very well choose to respond with force, putting the ball in Pakistan’s court on whether it is Rawalpindi/Islamabad that now wants to escalate the conflict.

This is obviously risky. The Modi government is hinting that it is prepared to take such a risk. For instance, it is common knowledge that both Pakistani and Indian troops cross the Line of Control to carry out minor tactical operations. The next time a terrorist attack is traced back to Pakistan, New Delhi might well decide to let special forces cross the Line of Control deeper into Pakistani-held territory. The Line of Control, after all, is not an international border. No Indian prime minister, not even Narendra Modi, wants to be in a situation where he has to order this. But he just might. Pakistan, for its part, no longer enjoys the patronage and sympathy of the West as it once did. The generals in Pakistan, like everyone else in India’s neighbourhood who play around with guns and lives, should rework their calculations.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 12 Jun 2015 19:03

I am not happy with the body count. Only 12 terrorists killed for 20 brave army jawans. There needs to be at least a 10:1 kill ratio and complete destruction of all known camps of the terrorists operating in Myanmar.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Jun 2015 19:04

ShauryaT wrote:The strategic implications of India’s cross-border raid -- by Nitin Pai
The Modi government’s challenge will be to quickly consolidate psychological and military gains from this conflict and use intelligence and political methods to prevent the need for such operations in the future.

What about the wider implications of this attack? First, militant groups operating on India’s frontiers and within India will have to reckon with the risk that New Delhi will more readily employ military force against them. Also, public opinion is largely supportive of the government taking a muscular approach to conflict management. Therefore, it is likely that they will have greater pause for thought before crossing thresholds of violence.

Second, it should be noted that New Delhi’s act was a punitive, retaliatory strike and not an unprovoked armed intervention in an ongoing conflict. It is an act of “offensive defence” which implicitly lays down a red line: New Delhi will not act with force if the line is not crossed (and, conversely, act decisively it it is). This position opens up space for negotiated settlement, albeit on terms favouring the Indian government.

Indian govt should have joint tactical mil ops with sp forces with Sri Lanka, Nepal, Bangladesh and Bhutan and Tibet govt soon.

India and other south asia countries should propose a joint tactical operation against Al QUida camps in the Af Pak region so that a joint 'south asia' strategy against Al Quida and ISIS is setup

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 12 Jun 2015 19:11

Hitesh wrote:I am not happy with the body count. Only 12 terrorists killed for 20 brave army jawans. There needs to be at least a 10:1 kill ratio and complete destruction of all known camps of the terrorists operating in Myanmar.

MHA estimates based on ground reports: 68 NE insurgents killed in Tuesday's ops in Myanmar. 19 buried on spot, 49 bodies removed. 60 injured

Apart from 68 NE insurgents killed in Indian Army strikes on Tuesday across Manipur border in Myanmar, 15 were killed along Nagaland border

@Bharti Jain (Journalist, Times of India)

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 12 Jun 2015 19:12

During the whole Cold War (incl. Cuban missile crisis), the premise was US will react asymmetrically.
The retribution from US will far exceed the provocation.
Reaction to 9/11 followed the same principle.
This MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) detente prevented active wars between Soviet and US.

Modi Sarkar, has put this in effect now.
Message to TSP is clear, if you fire at us, we will fire in multiples.
If there is a terrorist attack, we will cross borders in retribution.
In short we will react MADly and retribution will be heavy.
If TSP leaders have a little sense, this should result in peace for the next few years.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Jun 2015 19:22

ramana wrote:..

I think Firstpost is another DDM nest of snakes.

Agree. Any idea who's behind FP?

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 12 Jun 2015 19:29

The first thing to ask about this operations was: what was the objective of this operation?

If the objective of this operation was only to kill those insurgents who had ambushed army men, then that objective could have been fulfilled in hundred different ways. For example,
- Bhaarath could have requested Myanmar to carry out this operation.
- Bhaarath could have allowed some underworld group to carry out this operation.
- Bhaarath could have allowed some other Naga insurgency group to carry out this operation.
- Bhaarath could have simply kept quiet about this operation after killing them.
- Bhaarath could have kept quiet about crossing the border.

But, what did Bhaarath do?

Bhaarath made a huge show that it had crossed the border and killed those insurgents who had ambushed Army. So, what was the intention of the operation?

Actually, it seems to me that such a massive operation would not be undertaken only as a retaliation for some ambush. A much smaller operation might have been ordered if the intention was only to avenge the ambush. But, this was not a small operation because NSA and Army chief seem to be directly involved and IAF also seems to be involved. That means this was a very important operation.

It seems to me that the whole intention of this massive operation was to give a loud and clear warning to the enemies of Bhaarath: "Don't mess with us. We will not take such attacks lying down. We will go after the enemies/terrorists wherever they are even if we have to cross the border."

And the ministers have made no bones about the fact that the main recipient of this message was Pakistan. This is not a co-incident or goof-up. This is a deliberate policy of Modi Sarkaar. Bhaarath is warning its enemies and backing it up by actions lest they think its just empty rhetoric.

If the intention was only to carry out some covert operation to kill those who ambushed army, then there was really no need to go to town about this operation. It could have been kept underwraps. So, that was not the main intention of the operation. I think the operation's main intention was to send a loud and clear warning to the enemies. The bigger thing is the warning being delivered by Bhaarath. The operation is just a means of delivering this warning. Otherwise, this operation could have been easily kept underwraps by Bhaarath if it wanted to. But, no, Bhaarath wanted everyone to know about this operation.

As for supposed ruffled feathers of friends and allies, they can be soothed if they are really ruffled. This operation seems to have been chosen as an occasion to declare the big policy change.

Broadly, this operation underlines that insurgency and terrorism of all kinds will be taken very seriously by this regime and will not be tolerated. And those who sponsor such insurgency and terrorist activities will also not be allowed to provide safe sanctuaries.

Indian Diplomat explains why India can HOT PURSUIT Terrorists inside Pakistan

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Jun 2015 19:41

FP is owned by motabhai.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 12 Jun 2015 19:53

Looks like Myanmar and now Bangladesh are turning up the heat against separatists using their soil. Economic corridors running through these two countries connecting India is too important. They are beginning to see the value. Master stroke by PMO.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Jun 2015 19:59

chetak wrote:
Singha wrote:meantime khaplang is in a rangoon hospital this week. looks like he deftly fell ill and was flown to rangoon for treatment leaving his boys to die.

didn't some chota rajan type crooks attack some enemies in a thai hospital??

Could not the RAW task something like that on this khaplang creep??

that kind of thing should only be done against countries that absolutely refuse to help us in any way or those who actively act against us. I know israel does this even on friendly soil, barring US. I think that it pays too much of a price in diplomatic capital expenditure and the gains do not outweigh the cost. ops on hostile soil, is of course another matter.
this should be handled at the diplomatic/intel level IMHO.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 12 Jun 2015 20:17

Ankar wrote:
Hitesh wrote:I am not happy with the body count. Only 12 terrorists killed for 20 brave army jawans. There needs to be at least a 10:1 kill ratio and complete destruction of all known camps of the terrorists operating in Myanmar.
MHA estimates based on ground reports: 68 NE insurgents killed in Tuesday's ops in Myanmar. 19 buried on spot, 49 bodies removed. 60 injured

Apart from 68 NE insurgents killed in Indian Army strikes on Tuesday across Manipur border in Myanmar, 15 were killed along Nagaland border

@Bharti Jain (Journalist, Times of India)

Good. This is a good start but by no means this is over. There needs to be a couple more strikes to drive the point home.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2015 20:24

Legitimate critiques from the first post article. If someone has facts to counter, please do so.

So now suddenly India and Myanmar, who are allies and partners, are putting out embarrassingly different scenarios of what happened. Happymon Jacob, an international affairs expert at Jawaharlal Nehru University tells The Telegraph "If you do not treat these things with a certain kind of secrecy and sensitivity, it could impact how Myanmar and other countries treat similar requests from India in the future.”

This is a messaging goof up.

Now the Army is back pedaling saying according to The Hindu that the photographs were only approved as a "representative picture” not an "operational picture.” That's even more ridiculous because why should the Army be in the business of giving media outlets "representational pictures” anyway? Especially pictures that were already out there and available. Whether the pictures were an honest mistake or a deliberate attempt to jazz up the story and make it more front-page worthy, someone royally goofed up along the way.

The Army had kept mum about the casualties inflicted though in background briefings it had suggested 20 dead and 11 injured though some in the media have floated the claim that 100 insurgents were killed. But Indian Express says only seven bodies have been recovered and about a dozen militants were injured.
More damningly Rathore's #ManipurRevenge did not hit the perpetrators of the 4 June ambush that cost India 18 lives. Express also says that Niki Sumi, the head of one of the camps destroyed left it with 40 of his cadres before the Indians attacked. If Sumi is the Osama equivalent in this story, he it seems got away. And IE claims SS Khaplang, the aging patriarch of the NSCN-K insurgent group, is undergoing medical treatment safely in Yangon. So now questions are being raised as to the strategic value of the attack beyond providing some high-octane television drama and an ego stroke to India about its military prowess.

On the last part, need some reliable information on approximately number killed/injured and if any escaped, especially any high value targets killed or escaped.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Jun 2015 20:27

I am sure the terrorists arranged the bodies of their killed terrorists in a linear fashion so that firstpost's logically challenged people could count them. I mean who has ever heard of insurgent groups dragging away the dead bodies of their members, right ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jun 2015 20:35

In addition to what Rahul M said above, this back-and-forth body count verification does not change the fact these vermin got a well deserved a$$-whooping. You guys are missing the woods for the trees.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2015 20:43

Rakesh wrote:In addition to what Rahul M said above, this back-and-forth body count verification does not change the fact these vermin got a well deserved a$$-whooping. You guys are missing the woods for the trees.

Not missing anything but between 7 and 100 - the margin of differences is HUGE. Folks like us, like to assemble the tid bits to come to an understanding of the overall picture, of what the overall operation was like and what was achieved. Not looking for exact figures but some level of consistency.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jun 2015 20:49

Saar I agree, but you are asking for something which you will likely never get. Because no matter what figures the GoI puts out, you will have counter claims. The only consistency that exists is that SF went in, neutered them and Porkistan is now permanently wearing brown pants

Veni, Vidi, Vici - I Came; I Saw; I Conquered.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 12 Jun 2015 20:50

ShauryaT wrote:
Rakesh wrote:In addition to what Rahul M said above, this back-and-forth body count verification does not change the fact these vermin got a well deserved a$$-whooping. You guys are missing the woods for the trees.
Not missing anything but between 7 and 100 - the margin of differences is HUGE. Folks like us, like to assemble the tid bits to come to an understanding of the overall picture, of what the overall operation was like and what was achieved. Not looking for exact figures but some level of consistency.

If the media had said that their "sources" said it was 1000, would it have made any difference?
Army clearly said they didn't wait to count while shooting. What is important is the message! That was delivered with a bang. No confusion on this.
I think media purposefully inflated the numbers, so that when govt finally comes out with a number, if it does happen, it will be much lower.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Jun 2015 20:52

ShauryaT wrote:
Rakesh wrote:In addition to what Rahul M said above, this back-and-forth body count verification does not change the fact these vermin got a well deserved a$$-whooping. You guys are missing the woods for the trees.
Not missing anything but between 7 and 100 - the margin of differences is HUGE. Folks like us, like to assemble the tid bits to come to an understanding of the overall picture, of what the overall operation was like and what was achieved. Not looking for exact figures but some level of consistency.

You will never get that unless you were involved in the actual op. Anyways, the shalwars are browning in the right places going by the shrill squeaks from the usual presstitutes and their friends across the border.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jun 2015 20:54

ShauryaT wrote:Legitimate critiques from the first post article. If someone has facts to counter, please do so.

With respect Shaurya you ask for facts to counter the article, but what makes the points in the article "facts"

1. India and Myanmar gave "embarassingly different accounts"? Embarrassing whom? The US and Pakistan gave different accounts fo OBL's demise? So what? Who was embarrassed and wtf difference does it make.
2. The Indian army released a picture and said that it was a representative picture when someone found it was already there? So what?
3. Indian Army said 20 dead. Indian Express says 7 dead. So what? Who conducted the raid? Indian Express?

OK. Let me say this differently. The Indian army says a raid was conducted and 20 killed. Either you (not you personally, but a generic "you") believe it or you don't. If you don't believe it tell the Indian army to fu(koff. Don't waste time by arguing with numbers and small details

Waste of time article. The media is nowadays so full of shit I don't believe anything they say. The Indian army did not inform me about this raid. The media did. Maybe no such raid took place. QED. I cannot understand why anyone would believe that a raid took place but the details are wrong. The whole thing could be a lie. Do you have any facts to say that it's not all a big lie?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Jun 2015 21:05

LOL am reminded of the Siachen discussion where the aforesaid member took us down another useless rabbit hole. Posting the usual motivated articles to claim India should just withdraw and what not.
Frivolous crap to just do FUD is what the media excels in. And several politically inclined folks use the media as a crutch to push for their own agenda. This sort of stuff happened before yaar, only 4-6 people were killed yaar.. and so it goes. Another dozen pages of rubbish masquerading as debate.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 12 Jun 2015 21:10

Classic bluff game being played by both GOI and media backed by congress. Media backed by Congress has no cards but is calling GoI is bluffing. As there is no LOP and hence Congress has no way of knowing what MAD is upto in future. They want a way in. Watch out for calls for LOP again or something in that lines.
MAD and BJP are mature enough to call this bluff game being played. There is no one buying what media is selling. More Rona dhona that "Un-Democratic" way National security decisions are being made blahhh blahhh.. will come in media in a couple of days through Sanjay Jha or Anand Sharma or even Rahul baba depending on how desperate they are.
This was a major Op than what is made in media. A defining moment in Indian strategic standing at least regionally. This augments the Yemen rescue and the show of capability. Our armed forces have made us proud once again.
I believe there is more to come. A bigger demonstration of our prowess is on the way in near future.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Jun 2015 21:20

Altair, exactly. That is what has the media and INC apologists like Pravin Swami worried. These jokers are concerned their favorite party is being outfought at all levels. Napunsak Singhs supporters can try all they want, but the average public (bar the occasional AAPtard who is busy trying to pin the Myanmar op as a failure) isn't even buying this rubbish spin. They can see the difference.

The forum is fussing about the Rafale and what not. The key to AF is existing fleet & numbers available. Ditto for IA & WWR. I bet they are being focused on as a top priority. TSP is in for interesting times.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2015 21:23

Rakesh wrote:Saar I agree, but you are asking for something which you will likely never get. Because no matter what figures the GoI puts out, you will have counter claims. The only consistency that exists is that SF went in, neutered them and Porkistan is now permanently wearing brown pants

Veni, Vidi, Vici - I Came; I Saw; I Conquered.

Yes, Yes, but between all these figures are facts or at least reasonable views of the well informed. If GoI comes out with some numbers, I will gladly take it but that is unlikely as we all know. What we need is some consistency, in the background reporting that reporters get and/or the views of those who get reliable inside information. In time, I am sure things will become more clear, they invariably do.

Dissing the media with a broad stroke, who we all rely on for information is no way out. If GoI has stated that a large number were neutralized then that is where the matter stands. Not interested in saying the GoI is not stating the truth or any other nefarious design.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jun 2015 21:30

So far media has no track record of credibility. So what is the real issue?

No firing from behind motivated media articles.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jun 2015 21:37

ShauryaT wrote: Dissing the media with a broad stroke, who we all rely on for information is no way out.

Dissing the army or the government is also no way forward

No one needs to be telling the truth here. Not the government. Not the army. Not the media.

So what are we discussing?

If we cut the crap the best we can get is that there has been some military action near the Myanmar border and the army has killed someone. They have released this info because they probably cannot hide it. The exact truth we may never know.

In fact this reminds me of a discussion on here in the last few days about showing photos of bodies.

Now why did no one question the story about Indian soldiers being killed? Simply because horrific pictures of crisp carbonized bodies of soldiers were given to the media. The media prostitutes lapped that one up nicely. After that image the army can do what it wants and 80% of the country will only cheer them on. So will I.

Show the media pictures from the camps and the news outlets will make their peace for a while. Until some moron starts saying that it was photoshopped or it was a lie. Dissing the media is number one on my mind nowadays to retain my own sanity.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2015 21:48

ramana wrote:So far media has no track record of credibility. So what is the real issue?

No firing from behind motivated media articles.

ramana: If i have to fire, I will do so straight. I am simply trying to understand the facts around the article. If the article is motivated, please inform why is it so. I am 100% reliant on media for base information. This is crazy, instead of countering the facts of the article, this is getting to be a war on the media. Well.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 12 Jun 2015 21:54

ShauryaT wrote:Legitimate critiques from the first post article. If someone has facts to counter, please do so.

Start counterstrike

Mistake 1 - Legitimate and Firstpost in the same line.
Mistake 2 - Attributing self attested "factually correct" certificate to Firstpost article.
Mistake 3 - Based on Mistake 2 asking others to counter it.

End counterstrike

PS - Has anybody yet found any bullet hole on that CG ship ???

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jun 2015 21:54

shiv wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Legitimate critiques from the first post article. If someone has facts to counter, please do so.
With respect Shaurya you ask for facts to counter the article, but what makes the points in the article "facts"

1. India and Myanmar gave "embarassingly different accounts"? Embarrassing whom? The US and Pakistan gave different accounts fo OBL's demise? So what? Who was embarrassed and wtf difference does it make.
2. The Indian army released a picture and said that it was a representative picture when someone found it was already there? So what?
3. Indian Army said 20 dead. Indian Express says 7 dead. So what? Who conducted the raid? Indian Express?

1. It has embarrassed Burma, many informed do care about how the messaging is done, for in their view it makes a difference. e.g: read what G. Partha said in a TV interview yesterday. I do share the view that the messaging could have been better managed and coordinated.
2. Why did the IA first say, no picture was released by them. Anyways, we need an unequivocal denial that this picture is not post ops, of 21 paras or an investigation if it is so. You are well aware of the implications of release of photos.
3. If IA says about 20 dead, then I am happy with it and the matter ends. Ofcourse, they will likely not say this officially and hence a reliance on background reportage and consistent articulation in the media, that approximates to reality. If in the process, some news is flawed in their reporting, motivated or otherwise then we would be better informed.

Hope you are not arguing for less clarity. If you are then we are on separate pages. If you are just angry at the media, I am getting caught in the cross fire and hence end.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jun 2015 22:02

ShauryaT wrote: 1. It has embarrassed Burma, many informed do care about how the messaging is done, for in their view it makes a difference. e.g: read what G. Partha said in a TV interview yesterday. I do share the view that the messaging could have been better managed and coordinated.
2. Why did the IA first say, no picture was released by them. Anyways, we need an unequivocal denial that this picture is not post ops, of 21 paras or an investigation if it is so. You are well aware of the implications of release of photos.
3. If IA says about 20 dead, then I am happy with it and the matter ends. Ofcourse, they will likely not say this officially and hence a reliance on background reportage and consistent articulation in the media, that approximates to reality. If in the process, some news is flawed in their reporting, motivated or otherwise then we would be better informed.

Hope you are not arguing for less clarity. If you are then we are on separate pages. If you are just angry at the media, I am getting caught in the cross fire and hence end.

Shaurya I need to ask you why embarrassment of Burma should be counted as something that weighs against the Indian army's version?

Would you be able to say who re-released an old and publicly available picture of commandos and helicopter claiming that it was related to the Myanmar raid? Do you have facts or are facts created when Firstpost says them, with the caveat that media must not be criticised because they are our only source if information? That is rhetoric, not fact.

I am asking YOU Shaurya for more clarity.

What are the grounds on which you declare something as fact and fiction? You ask for a countering of "facts" in an article. What proof do you have that the give article has "facts". The argument that you depend on the media does not mean that the media release only facts. It does not mean that they army releases facts either.

It would help if you asked people whether they had any opinions on the media story, rather than asking them to counter media facts. With apologies Shaurya that is sophistry.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 Jun 2015 22:12

This "100% reliant on media" is a cop-out to continue discrediting.

And the media seems to be staffed with a bunch of absolute clowns.
Here is an example why . No pictures were released after the operation. IE releases some random picture. It goes viral and the rest of media comment that released picture was fake.

Same with the dead numbers. All media outlets have numbers varying from 7-60. And then articles follow up on how 7 is likely and 20 is unlikely. Im not even sure actual ops guys would know. Its not that they sit back, take a cigar, stroll around individual bodies, nudge them with their legs, count and say "You never mess with Amurikuh bro...er I mean ...India bruh" . They would , I assume, pull back into Indian territory as soon as possible to prevent casualties.

There are a few things one can do to glean out the right information.
Establish who reports well and follow their articles, sites. (newminute seems to be good)
Watch actual interviews of GoI staff, defense personnel.
Follow GoI twitter handles ( like Sitanshu Kar) .

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 12 Jun 2015 22:22

SharuyaT wrote: If i have to fire, I will do so straight. I am simply trying to understand the facts around the article. If the article is motivated, please inform why is it so. I am 100% reliant on media for base information. This is crazy, instead of countering the facts of the article, this is getting to be a war on the media. Well.

The fact is that neither the army nor the government will reveal the facts to you or to firstpost, or any one not involved in the op, and you already acknowledged it, even as you continue to ask questions that seem to ignore this singular fact.

So the first question is, on what basis are you repeatedly pretending that firstpost has the facts or that anyone else can present "facts to counter firstpost's facts". Maybe you should spend a little while and spot the circular logic in your stance. If Firstpost's facts are correct, then the obvious implication is that firstpost got first hand information of the operational details of the attack. Is that your claim here?

Because if not, then it is utterly ridiculous to pretend that you are looking for "factual rebuttals" to fictional news items, and then rue that people are on the "poor Indian media". The Indian media has a history of being a bunch of lying scum who make up their own facts to fill up their newspapers, and the attack the government and the army for releasing information that "contradicts" facts that they conjured up on a whim. How do we know? because eventually when the facts show up over time, we find out that the media lied through their teeth, knowing damn well that the government and the army will not reveal actual details by trying to "rebut" the false claims in the media. The same game you are playing right now.

The Indian media have proven themselves to be a bunch of lying oiseaules repeatedly over the years -- if they don't have the facts, they just make it up. If they do not find enough controversy in a topic, they just create new ones, like how Praveen "Grandmother" Swamy is now writing "factual pieces" about how the op was not as succesful as the army claims? Whose grandmother informed that turd on the exact numbers and outcome of the attack in Myanmar? On what basis does this Praveen Swami seem to have minute details of operations that are siloed within specific areas of government? The only explanation that makes sense is Praveen Swami pulls all of his "facts" out of his various orifices, or he is being played by his sources in the MoD babucracy who maybe politically compromised to want to feed him disinformation.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 12 Jun 2015 22:28

The whole exercise of the media has but 1 objective: Smear this successful operation, so that 6 months down the road, the same media can refer to this as Controversial Myanmar Operation and link-back to their own farticles.

The goal is to portray Modi Sarkar's even genuine accomplishments as non-events/controversies/lies etc.

1) If India's National Security apparatus or relations with Myanmar are risked in the process, so be it

2) If soldiers' & intelligence operatives' lives are threatened by these leaks, so be it

After all, aren't Indian Express the same presstitutes who concocted the coup-story, the grandmother LOC story, the bushfire story & the Terror Boat story? The FirstPost article is just garbage piling on top of the Indian Express garbage

P.S. There may be other motivations too: like publishing an atrocious article about body count, the countering of which might force the Government to reveal some operational details that it would rather not.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 12 Jun 2015 22:32

Tuvaluan: I strongly suspect Praveen Swami is ISI-compromised. The info he leaks, which look as if he has insider contacts, are likely fed to him by ISI handlers. Maybe even Chinese handlers (he was with Chindu, remember).

This became obvious during the Terror Boat episode. He even joint-published a piece with a Paki journalist claiming that these are smugglers en-route to Karachi. There too, he gave "very specific" information like the name of the smuggling group the boat belonged to. It sounded suspiciously like the ISI version fed to him via handlers. This "inside info" that no one else has, give him an air of credibility, while the truth is the exact opposite