Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Suraj » 16 Sep 2015 23:10

Alka_P: as a newcomer, I'd like to advise you to please keep this thread on track. This thread is not a place for a freewheeling discussion of all things tangentially related to political economy. It's focused on macro economics. Your discussions are better off in the states news or politics discussion thread. On the other hand, posts like the one of the Niti Aayog report are very much relevant here. Thanks for understanding.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Falijee » 16 Sep 2015 23:27

India Plans Solar Power Systems On Roofs Of 500 Trains

Looking to extend the success of a pilot project that saw the roofs of trains covered with solar power systems, the Indian Government is planning to financially support a similar but larger plan.

The Government may provide subsidies to Indian Railways to set up solar power systems atop 500 trains. The systems would be used to power lighting, fans, and air-conditioning systems aboard the trains, while the potential subsidy may be provided through the National Clean Energy Fund, which is replenished through the tax levied on coal mined or imported in India.

This program is in addition to the existing plan to set up 500 MW rooftop solar capacity at railways stations around the country.

Both these plans are expected to bring huge financial savings to Indian Railways, which is probably the single largest consumer of electricity in the country. In 2013-14, Indian Railways consumed 17.5 billion kWh electricity, or about 1.8% of the total electricity generated in India. On top of this, it also has to pay significantly higher tariffs than other consumer categories.

Indian Railways is planning to source 10% of its electricity demand from renewable energy sources by 2020. Last month, it signed an agreement with the Ministry of New & Renewable Energy to set up renewable energy projects, including rooftop projects, utility-scale projects, solar water heating systems, and solar street lighting systems. The Ministry of Railways also announced last year that it would set up 1 GW of solar power capacity over the next 5 years.

Indian Railways is also planning to set up large-scale solar power projects on its unused land, and may open tenders for competitive auctions of the projects to set up these power plants.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Sep 2015 01:30

Theo_Fidel wrote:Without top of the line exposure to English these folks do not belong in a factory.


Indian billionaire Kumar Mangalam Birla, in an essay in a volume "Reimagining India" makes the following confession:
...Ironically, before we became more international, I used to be much more impressed by someone who could speak the Queen's English than, say, a chartered accountant from Jodhpur whose spoken English required some effort to understand. Now when I look across all our operations in places like Brazil or Egypt or Thailand, I see a whole host of people who aren't comfortable in English, who need interpreters, but who are very, very good at what they do. Sadly, it took that experience for me to respect an accountant from Rajasthan—my home state—as much as a graduate of St. Stephen's in Delhi. At one time we even wanted to run English classes for some of our employees! Now it's not an issue in my mind. If you can get your point across, if you are adding value, if you are competent, then bloody hell to your English.


Kumar Mangalam Birla is the head of the Aditya Birla Group which per Wiki, "is an Indian multinational conglomerate named after Aditya Vikram Birla, headquartered in the Aditya Birla Centre in Worli, Mumbai, India. It operates in 40 countries with more than 120,000 employees worldwide."

I think I would go with Birla's opinion on the need for English over many others.

PS: A Japanese point-of-view also:

Masayoshi Son, chairman and CEO of SoftBank (SoftBank recently acquired the telco Sprint) wrote as follows:

For context for the key point, this excerpt:
After acquiring Sprint, I delivered a speech urging all employees and managers at the company to join forces with our Japanese unit and work as a single entity.

I made the speech because I did not want to repeat the mistakes I had made running previously acquired companies in the U.S. When I took over the company that runs Comdex (Computer Dealer's Exhibition) and U.S. publisher Ziff Davis, I allowed American executives to run them at their discretion. This decision was based on my belief that Japanese owners should not interfere too much with the U.S. executives' business management. That belief was wrong.

By leaving American executives to their own devices, I was acting as an investor and not as a business leader. This hands-off approach would never enable me to reform management of companies I acquire overseas. It doesn't matter how well a company is run, there is always room for improvement. A hands-on approach allows me to make profitable businesses more profitable.


Now the key-point
A Japanese SoftBank executive recently made a presentation in English in Silicon Valley. His spoken English was terrible, but who cares? He was able to make himself understood. In the past, I would probably have told Japanese executives at SoftBank to focus on Japanese operations if their English was not at a high level. Not anymore.


Per Wiki, "As at 2015, SoftBank was the 62nd largest company in the world (based on a composite of sales, profit, assets and market value)."

I would take Masayoshi Son's opinion on the need for English over those of many others.

PS: if there is any doubt about the connection of this to macro-economics, it is the above two mentioned people and an army of people like them who will be making the giant investments in India. Yes, medium- and small- scale investments might be the major drivers of employment, but the large investments set up a macroeconomic climate for economic growth and employment growth. Also, certainly good oral and written communication skills are important -- but not in a specific language.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Theo_Fidel » 17 Sep 2015 02:09

I think people are going sideways on what I said. I'm not talking about management I'm talking about factory floor. You have to visit the factory floor of say Samsung A/C & Refrigerator in Chennai to understand what I’m talking about. The way it is set up right now, without fluent English don’t bother applying, you won’t go anywhere…. ..if you are factory worker or aspire to become a global factory worker, learn English young man/woman… ..and don't be a 5th standard fail!

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 17 Sep 2015 02:38

^^^You can get your point across (eventually) with sign language. But as KMB knows you're not going to get to be CEO or global this or that without knowing English/American fluently,

It's about communication. If you can't communicate, you can't lead. English (US) is the Lingua Anglica.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Cosmo_R » 17 Sep 2015 02:39

Theo_Fidel wrote:I think people are going sideways on what I said. I'm not talking about management I'm talking about factory floor. You have to visit the factory floor of say Samsung A/C & Refrigerator in Chennai to understand what I’m talking about. The way it is set up right now, without fluent English don’t bother applying, you won’t go anywhere…. ..if you are factory worker or aspire to become a global factory worker, learn English young man/woman… ..and don't be a 5th standard fail!


+1

It's your ticket out.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Sep 2015 05:44

Theo_Fidel wrote:I think people are going sideways on what I said. I'm not talking about management I'm talking about factory floor. You have to visit the factory floor of say Samsung A/C & Refrigerator in Chennai to understand what I’m talking about. The way it is set up right now, without fluent English don’t bother applying, you won’t go anywhere…. ..if you are factory worker or aspire to become a global factory worker, learn English young man/woman… ..and don't be a 5th standard fail!


Its probably set up that way because manuals etc are easily accessible in english and hence it helps. Over a period of time even that advantage may recede. I know many engineers who are worldclass and more whose spoken, written english is terrible but they pore over books and engineering drawings and get stuff faster than their english literate peers.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby member_29172 » 17 Sep 2015 06:16

^^ this yinglish matter would've been more appropriate during the license raj days when there were restrictions on all kinds of things and you'd need to know english to read imported manuals on electronic devices and what not.

The very same manuals can be easily translated to Hindi and pasted everywhere, everyone from China to Japan to Mexico translates all kinds of tfta yinglish manuals to their local languages for better understanding. There are a few things that you just can't grasp with a superficial understanding of english that you speak only for mere 1 or 2 hours for some presentation. So, I don't know where this mighty talk of lingua anglica and yinglish will give you moksha type statements come from. It's another idea imposed by idea of India types. When you forget your own mother tongue, you forget your own history and that's exactly what has happened over the years. I don't think english speaking has anything to do with the prosperity that followed, it was 70% hardwork, 20% skill and 10% persuassion tactics and planning.

P.S.: Theoji, I don't have any hidden agenda, but I don't like looking like an Indian and acting like a british. It's kinda idiotic. English speak English and act like themselves, Chinese speak Chinese and act like themselves, what's this obsession of ours to act like someone else? In ye olden days we didn't had the know how or the resources to do things in our language, but now we do, so why not? Reverting to local language seems to another mythical taboo concept that seems to exists in the minds of some here. Just like the baboos think that attacking pukis will turn the world against us.

I would like to take this to the State discussion thread before bredator janaab drops a nuke on me. (Apologize for this one last OT post Suraj ji)

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby A_Gupta » 17 Sep 2015 09:02

Karan M wrote:Its probably set up that way because manuals etc are easily accessible in english and hence it helps. Over a period of time even that advantage may recede. I know many engineers who are worldclass and more whose spoken, written english is terrible but they pore over books and engineering drawings and get stuff faster than their english literate peers.


Go to a Home Improvement store in the US, and on most items, the instructions are more prominent in Spanish than in English.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Singha » 17 Sep 2015 09:04

many such people of the peon applicants in UP are employed in BPO industry in the various metros. but other than NCR, NI does not seem to have any bpo hub at all. UP and Bihar do not seem to be participating at all locally in the BPO/IT industry which is manpower intensive, though lot of their students study and work outside their states.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby gakakkad » 17 Sep 2015 10:13

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Supratik wrote:While the TFR is still high except BH the pop growth rates have come down considerably close to that of Muslims in SI and approaching that of Hindus minus KL.


Yes, the story is complex and trend lines are slowly down but no one can say that a TFR of 3.1 is anything but disastrous out of control population growth right now. As the ministers says @ TFR 3.1 the state doubles every 25 years. This something that should alarm our mantris but mostly crikets...

[img]http://www.livemint.com/r/LiveMint/Period1/2014/12/26/Photos/web_FTR_heatmap_1.jpg[/img
----------------------------------------------------

Singha wrote:why he produced 4 is a mystery.


That is a million dollar question isn't it. Most probably because his wife has zero control over her fertility. Look at the female literacy rate on the right side of the graph. But it can be changed if our Neta's highlight the problem and attack it. Without getting TFR below 2.5 any state in India can not be fixed....




I think TFR should be around 2.1 to maintain replacement level populations ... eventually it ll come down a bit on its own... Below 1.7 signals a declining population that is liable to age after a few decades...

Anyway to those who might be new to the concept TFR represents number of children per couple... A TFR of 2 is theoretically replacement level fertility... Concept here is that a couple comprises of 2 people , as they ll have to produce 2 to replace themselves ... But since 5% of population is expected to die out before reaching child bearing age , you need a TFR of 2.1 to maintain a stable population... A TFR > that is obviously growing population..A TFR < 2 is a declining population..

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Theo_Fidel » 17 Sep 2015 10:24

Meanwhile.... ...looks like Chennai has wrestled this one away from GJ.. ..spirited competition continues...
This is also payback of the good kind for the terrible pain the folks in TN endured for a few years, suffering through 10-12 hours power cuts to ensure the Ford factory always had 24/7 power for A/C clean room type operations uninterrupted...
Now if only that port to maduravoyil project takes off....

http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.co ... s/48910890

American automaker Ford Motor Company has signed MoU with Tamil Nadu government for augmenting manufacturing capacity and establishing a new global engineering and technology center there.

Adding to previous recent investment in India of US$2 billion, this new investment will also harness the pool of Indian talent for high skill jobs across product development, IT, data analytics, manufacturing and business processes.
.....
The Ford Chennai plant presently has an installed annual capacity to produce 2,00,000 vehicles and 3,40,000 engines. Ford Operations in Tamil Nadu also include Global Business Services, with offices in Chennai, and Coimbatore.


http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes.co ... i/47411078

US automobile giant Ford Motor Company has decided to invest another Rs 4,000 to Rs 5000 crore in an R&D centre in Chennai, after investing a billion dollar in a second plant in Sanand, Gujarat, said people familiar with the development.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Hari Seldon » 17 Sep 2015 11:52

"Manufacturing" as a catch-all bucket is in itself misleading nomenclature. Much of India's curtrent manufacturing happens in small and medium enterprises (SMEs) which are plagued by various issues - lack of access to infra, financing, markets and what have you.

The smarter ones have jumped onto the e-commerce bandwagon and are piggybacking on the likes of Flipkart and snapdeal to expand reach nationally, solve some logistical headaches and so on. Reports of small jobshops in a Bhatinda or an Indore jumping 10x in production in 12 months thanks to orders flooding in are doing the rounds (there's an ET report somewhere).

Even better, banks and FIs are now developing loan products for this sector (e-comm backed SME) with past orders and performance as worthy collateral for working capital and other credit support. Of course, MUDRA bank will help too.

Getting this game of ecomm leverage going in the B2B sector and in services will vastly help the microfoundations of the desi economy, me thinks. And help jobs, HDI, other metrics etc. Or so I hope.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Karan M » 17 Sep 2015 12:42

A_Gupta wrote:
Karan M wrote:Its probably set up that way because manuals etc are easily accessible in english and hence it helps. Over a period of time even that advantage may recede. I know many engineers who are worldclass and more whose spoken, written english is terrible but they pore over books and engineering drawings and get stuff faster than their english literate peers.


Go to a Home Improvement store in the US, and on most items, the instructions are more prominent in Spanish than in English.


Actually you and alka_p raise a very important point. It might be easier to just translate a lot of stuff into regional languages and make it available then trying to make people who are literate in their regional languages (can read and write) become english literate. That by itself may raise productivity by many points and bring modern knowledge to many areas in India.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Vadivel » 17 Sep 2015 13:47

A_Gupta wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:Without top of the line exposure to English these folks do not belong in a factory.


Indian billionaire Kumar Mangalam Birla, in an essay in a volume "Reimagining India" makes the following confession:
I think I would go with Birla's opinion on the need for English over many others.

Masayoshi Son, chairman and CEO of SoftBank (SoftBank recently acquired the telco Sprint) wrote as follows:

I would take Masayoshi Son's opinion on the need for English over those of many others.

.


How many people does Birla and Soni (outside japan) do they recruit who don't know english? My guess is not much.

Also both of them are saying "get the message across" and "add value", for both of these you need to be well read in your domain, which in Indian context you need english to go through the books and manuals etc. In japan at least you have many books and process which are in Japanese, so english is not necessary , but in india this is going to be tough with out knowing in english, since the amount of knowledge in local language is very little or of very poor quality.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Hari Seldon » 17 Sep 2015 14:16

Karan M wrote:Actually you and alka_p raise a very important point. It might be easier to just translate a lot of stuff into regional languages and make it available then trying to make people who are literate in their regional languages (can read and write) become english literate. That by itself may raise productivity by many points and bring modern knowledge to many areas in India.


Actually, how many desi websites are there in vernacular? How many keyboards and keypads are vernacular enabled... the great digital India dream may come to nothing if we're unable to get a good proportion of the workforce skilled and emphasizing vernacular is quite simply the easiest and fastest way of getting there.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Supratik » 17 Sep 2015 18:10

Some of the smartest people I have come across are Japanese, Chinese, Korean who do not speak good English. In some cases they write good English but do not communicate good English. Yet, they run by far the best manufacturing industries. I think this - you need to know pro-pah English to prove that you are smart is a colonial hangover and a result of Macaulyte indoctrination. This myth is also popular in certain parts of the country e.g. in the north people generally communicate in the local language or Hindi in the work place even in scientific establishments. I don't think it has any relation to industrialization. I think Theo knows better about TN but I know more about WB. There half a million Bengali skilled workers working in Bglore many with top firms. But they don't find job in WB itself. Why? Because of the political culture. Nothing to do with English. Even if you open a chi-chi factory with people speaking pro-pah English some people with jhanda is going to come and destory your investment. That is the climate.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Theo_Fidel » 17 Sep 2015 18:42

Everyone here speaking perfect 'propah' english is advocating vernacular for the teeming masses. What the...

In TN at least urban areas 99% of the time people use Tamil, at home, shops, travel, etc. But for work, commerce and science one uses English. I'm talking about how the modern factory floor is built and operated. Samsung is SoKo yet all their factory equipment is english, most of their notices announcements, esp. technical stuff is in english. It is the same across the other factories that I have visited near Chennai. You need english, no doubts about it,... ..the rest non-macaulayized non-dhimmified non-racinated blaah! blaah! :roll: will be joining the line for the 368 peon jobs unfortunately... ..or migrating to Bengluru or Chennai where English is again the factory language. If chauvinistic TN can allow English for ease of business don't see why other states can not follow, don't make it harder for global factories to come to India...

Take this seriously folks! At home you can speak what ever you want, on the factory floor English is a must. I'm posting a picture below of the Bharat Benz Training floor in Chennai. All the signage is in English, all the instruction is in English,all the controls are in english. Even the label on that darn can of WD-40 is in English. And also, don't expect to be working in such factories unless you have a technical degree with ~20 years of study, preferably engineering, after all that is your competition for the job....
Image

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Supratik » 17 Sep 2015 19:01

Yes MNCs need to communicate in English on the work floor e.g. between a Korean manager and a Tamil floorman. However, I have heard that even higher education in Japan is in Japanese although they need to learn English to communicate with the rest of the world. I know that you have to know the local language in many European countries to get a job in academia. Many educated north Indians speak good English. UP and Bihar or WB is not backward because they don't speak good english. If you look at accents they probably speak better English. It is the political climate, law and order situation and business friendly climate. I have never worked in the south but I am told that outside Kerala the work culture is closer to advanced countries. I don't think Marathis or Gujratis speaking English has anything to do with their level of industrialization which is similar to TN.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2015 20:00

which is more difficult, finding 500 factory works with tech skills AND fluent english OR translate a manual of a few dozen pages into the local language ?

sure, at first you would easily get some people at the intersection of the two sets but what happens when that miniscule set is sopped up by the ford/samsung factory ?
your options would be to give english training (fluent english no less !!) to 500 people with tech skills, make provisions for yearly retraining and training of new entrants
OR
you could just make an one time investment of getting the manual translated by a bilingual guy with the tech knowledge to understand it.

samsung et al might be running right now as Theo saar explained but it is not sustainable in the long run.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Theo_Fidel » 17 Sep 2015 21:02

Suprantik, not a clue what you are trying to say now saar. Lot of wild assertions, downhill skiing and bush beating there I’m not going to bother to read. If you think Indian companies do not benchmark themselves to MNC level of work we cannot even have a conversation... ..in my experience at that level, in the Chennai area, there is no difference between say a TVS manufacturing plant vs a Borg Warner manufacturing plant. The employees are essentially identical these days, from my limited view the equipment used is identical, the quality standards are identical....
-----------------------------------------------

RahulM,

How many do you want. :) TN alone graduates close to 250,000 engineers a year. At least 1/3 have those have these level of skills so say ~ 100,000, though experienced folks are fewer. In Chennai you could find 50,000 such types tomorrow if you felt like it. In fact if you expanded your search to TN you could find 500,000 tomorrow though quality may suffer. There are a lot of engineers in TN with both English and passable skills ready to work on the factory floor sitting around without a lot to do right now. I believe that this can be a competitive advantage for India. An engineering grad in India can definitely outcompete a HS grad from China in say a car factory. No need to struggle with manuals.

From what I have heard the situation is similar in Karnataka, at least Bengluru area. Somewhere around 100,000 usable English speaking engineers per year in Karnataka IIRC though IT absorbs a whole bunch.

Can someone from Mumbai or Delhi or Hyderabad or GJ confirm the situation is same there, namely lots of English literate engineering grads looking for work in a highly mechanized factory environment, I suspect it is...

That should pretty much cover the majority of Indian global scale manufacturing activity....
----------------------------------

Bottom line is this folks, the new factories in India only intend to hire the best of the best. And they are right to do this. The education and skill levels of folks on the manufacturing line in Chennai approach that of the average IT worker these days. How many non-english speaking IT workers do you know? I suspect things are similar in other cities and states.

We need to get away from this idea that our failed students will be manufacturing our goods. Those days are long gone. India is skipping directly into the modern mechanized manufacturing phase, essentially bypassed the entire mass manufacturing phase of smokey chimneys and sweating workers and beaten up equipment. Like I said, only the best of the best need apply, english is very much part of it....
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 17 Sep 2015 21:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2015 21:20

does the lowest rung tech worker in factory floors constitute BTech's ? I was of the perception that workforce primarily consisted of +2 educated people with tech skills from courses like those given by ITI's with engg. graduates and more experienced people in more supervisory/managerial positions. please correct me if wrong.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Dipanker » 17 Sep 2015 22:02

I would find it hard to believe that if such MNC's or even Indian one's were to open their plants in places like UP or Bihar they will not find sufficient acceptable quality workers, supervisors, and managers. I would tend to think that UP and Bihar have sufficient number of engineering colleges, polytechnics, and ITI's to produce the manpower needed for expanded level of Industrial activity.

The reasons these states are not able to attract capital investment towards industrialization lies elsewhere, such as political leadership, law and order, higher degree of corruption, etc.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby chaanakya » 17 Sep 2015 22:15

Dipanker wrote:I would find it hard to believe that if such MNC's or even Indian one's were to open their plants in places like UP or Bihar they will not find sufficient acceptable quality workers, supervisors, and managers. I would tend to think that UP and Bihar have sufficient number of engineering colleges, polytechnics, and ITI's to produce the manpower needed for expanded level of Industrial activity.

The reasons these states are not able to attract capital investment towards industrialization lies elsewhere, such as political leadership, law and order, higher degree of corruption, etc.



Well you are wrong them. ( on bolded part) There aren't enough of them. Engineers, we do have thanks to ktk and TN.

I agree on the part abt Law and order and political leadership.....

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Dipanker » 17 Sep 2015 22:28

chaanakya wrote:
Dipanker wrote:I would find it hard to believe that if such MNC's or even Indian one's were to open their plants in places like UP or Bihar they will not find sufficient acceptable quality workers, supervisors, and managers. I would tend to think that UP and Bihar have sufficient number of engineering colleges, polytechnics, and ITI's to produce the manpower needed for expanded level of Industrial activity.

The reasons these states are not able to attract capital investment towards industrialization lies elsewhere, such as political leadership, law and order, higher degree of corruption, etc.



Well you are wrong them. ( on bolded part) There aren't enough of them. Engineers, we do have thanks to ktk and TN.

I agree on the part abt Law and order and political leadership.....


A 5 second googling comes up with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... University

Uttar Pradesh Technical University has a total of 663 institutes affiliated to it as per the 2013 annual report.[1] Out of these, 300 institutes offer B.Tech, 98 offer B.Pharm, 12 offer BHMCT, 23 offer B.Arch, 3 offer BFAD, 1 offers BFA, 429 offer MBA, 117 offer MCA, 86 offerM.Tech, 60 offer M.Pharm, 19 offer MAM and 1 offers M.Arch.


As of June 2014, there are four central government, seven government engineering colleges in public sector and 17 engineering colleges in the private sector in Bihar, including government-aided BIT, Patna and Women's Institute of Technology, Darbhanga.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... n_in_Bihar


Don't you think that is reasonable number of engineering colleges to provide the necessaey manpower for Bihar/UP ?

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby chaanakya » 17 Sep 2015 22:35

No, not at all. they don't tell you the whole story.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Picklu » 17 Sep 2015 22:48

With their private engineering education ktk, maha, tn stole the march in terms of engineer volume a long time ago. Now there are private colleges in up, bh, wb as well but these are laggards starting way late and ever playing catch up. the language english is not the main differentiating factor, engineering education via english medium is.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Picklu » 17 Sep 2015 22:51

Rahul M wrote:which is more difficult, finding 500 factory works with tech skills AND fluent english OR translate a manual of a few dozen pages into the local language ?

sure, at first you would easily get some people at the intersection of the two sets but what happens when that miniscule set is sopped up by the ford/samsung factory ?
your options would be to give english training (fluent english no less !!) to 500 people with tech skills, make provisions for yearly retraining and training of new entrants
OR
you could just make an one time investment of getting the manual translated by a bilingual guy with the tech knowledge to understand it.

samsung et al might be running right now as Theo saar explained but it is not sustainable in the long run.


so thought the commies and killed the english advantage for us bongs :x

the tech manuals etc are not an one time thing ... it is ever moving ... hard to keep up. you will need a bunch of translators full time the no of which will probably be as big as a percentage of workforce and the salary etc for this translators are non value adds.

it might sound counter productive superficially but pushing people to learning functional english as part of regular education is easier as proved by southern states conclusively now. what to do... commie brains!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
Last edited by Picklu on 17 Sep 2015 22:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Dipanker » 17 Sep 2015 22:52

Even with the present number of engineering colleges, polytechnics, and ITI's , there is massive unemployment among the technical trained manpower in these states, and that is mostly due to lack of sufficient industrial activity in these states.

Given the level of unemployment, the current supply itself is hugely surplus. So adding more engineering colleges will only add up to unemployment pool.

If industrial activity was to pick up in these states such that demand started to outstrip supply then supply will naturally increase.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Dipanker » 17 Sep 2015 23:08

Isn't learning english compulsory up to +2 level ? It used to be when I went to school!

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2015 23:15

Pickluda, I am not asking to follow the commies and ban english from schools or do similar moronic things.

but I do not see why factory floor technicians need to be fluent in english to accomplish their jobs. china has been running the largest technician workforce army pretty successfully without doing that ! I doubt even their floor managers would all be fluent in english, let alone the workers.

the logistics of translating a bunch of manuals once a year is far lesser than having to train lakhs and lakhs of people in english to fluent levels.
p.s there's a BIG difference b/w functional english (which you are suggesting) and fluent english, which theo saar is.

all high school educated Indians are supposed to know functional english. to expect more, that too at the lowest rungs of the technical workforce, is IMHO unrealistic & unfair.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2015 23:19

to give an example, a friend of mine has a btech from one of the NITs, he is *very* good at what he does, has excellent skills & understanding in his domain but absolutely sucks at english. simple TOI level news reports often stump him and he would need to move mountains to ever become a fluent english speaker.

but apparently he is not good enough to fabricate samsung kitchen appliances. :lol:
I should tell him tomorrow.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Picklu » 17 Sep 2015 23:32

I believe the functional vs fluent is a bit subjective.

Below is my personal observation. I studied in a convent school till std 4 and then wb govt bangla medium school till plus 2. My classmates, who came from purely bangla medium schools were exposed to functional english only from std 5 but were actually scared of english communication at plus 2. Many of them went to general lines - science/arts/commerce but again in mostly bangla medium. These are all middle class bongs near kolkata suburb mind you.
In chi chi blr, the guys/gals working in the retail shop counter etc are all coming from +2 background only or even less but they are much more conversant with english communication. Nothing like queens english or propah pronunciation but just able to read/write/speak and fast enough without unnecessary stoppages etc.
So, somehow the english education imparted till plus 2 is creating different standard in different places. I guess this is what theo sir means as fluent, I might be wrong though. But this is exactly what I mean as functional - ability to read/write/speak and fast enough without unnecessary stoppages etc - shop keeper/retail counter clerk/auto driver level.
Last edited by Picklu on 17 Sep 2015 23:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Theo_Fidel » 17 Sep 2015 23:37

Rahul M wrote:p.s there's a BIG difference b/w functional english (which you are suggesting) and fluent english, which theo saar is.


Well that’s the rub isn’t it. My opinion is that to read and understand the technical level of manufacturing at these factories relatively fluent English will be required. To be honest even I had trouble reading some of the words and descriptions, I would probably not do very well. Can some one bodge the thing and do some jugaad random eye rule type stuff, sure… …but not recommended if we in India want to provide world class product. If your BTech friend sux at English I would tell him to go and get better at English, upgrade his skills. It will make him a better worker for companies…. ..there are others just as smart as him out there doing the same….

BTW Factories are looking for teachable, productive workers, if you were uncharitable say pliant workers, not necessarily ‘smart’ workers if you know what I mean…

Rahul M wrote:china has been running the largest technician workforce army pretty successfully without doing that ! I doubt even their floor managers would all be fluent in english, let alone the workers.


Good God! Sir! Are you really arguing for China level quality. This is the country that cannot get the eyes on its stuffed animals lined up correct. The only thing they have is cheap cheap cheep…. …Indian manufacturing needs to stick to quality as they are right now. It will pay off longer term…

Picklu wrote: I guess this is what theo sir means as fluent, I might be wrong though. But this is exactly what I mean as functional - ability to read/write/speak and fast enough without unnecessary stoppages etc - shop keeper/retail counter clerk/auto driver level.


Yup!
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 17 Sep 2015 23:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby chaanakya » 17 Sep 2015 23:38

Dipanker wrote:Even with the present number of engineering colleges, polytechnics, and ITI's , there is massive unemployment among the technical trained manpower in these states, and that is mostly due to lack of sufficient industrial activity in these states.

Given the level of unemployment, the current supply itself is hugely surplus. So adding more engineering colleges will only add up to unemployment pool.

If industrial activity was to pick up in these states such that demand started to outstrip supply then supply will naturally increase.

You have to see the problem from all angles.Bihar produces 5.85 pass-outs from 10+2 streams. UP Produces 14.5 Lkahs.. Half od the seats in TN and Ktk are used up by those from Bihar and UP who can afford to go out , pay higher fees and premium and then find employment. That is their ticket out of educational hell hole that these two states are in. It is not that students are not good enough. They are far better but not all can afford to go out. Compare this number to engineering, polytechnic and ITI seats available.
BH and UP has missed the Bus in 1194-1999. Employment opportunities did not exit in states like TN and Ktk. Most of them got job in code coolie types and became NRIs. Situation was better than what they would have go otherwise in TN or in other places. Obviously Biharis and UP Bhaiyyas could have done the same. But that chance was not afforded to majority of them due to Jungalraj. TN and Ktk among others had better chance not only for their own students but for BH and UP. We should thank them.
You have to compare this with number of engineering seats in TN vis a vis 10+2 pass outs.(7.29 lakhs in TN Board and Engineering seats 2.36lakhs and 498 colleges) UP has 329 colleges and 1.36 lakhs seats. Compare that also with population. And you will realise the problem. It is not simply demand and supply issue . Education is key to better life for all of them.

For Bihar it is 5200 seats in 19 colleges. That sucks. What this bloody Nikuamma was doing after yadava rule.
Last edited by chaanakya on 17 Sep 2015 23:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Picklu » 17 Sep 2015 23:44

^^ In 95, when i started my BE in WB, we had only 5 colleges (all govt) and less than 2000 engineering seat :(
Out of those 5, 1(Kalyani) started only in 95, before that it was - drum roll - 4 colleges ....

there is reason why momota ran special train for ktk CET from kol

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Prem » 18 Sep 2015 03:29

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article7662610.ece
The way out of the economic tailspin
SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY

When is an economy in a tailspin? It is when its rudder and Global Positioning System (GPS) malfunction. For an aircraft, it means hurtling down while spiralling to a crash. Such a crash happens very fast and without much notice. For example, East Asian nations such as Japan, South Korea and Philippines were growing very fast during the 1975-95 period, the growth rates of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) exceeding 10 per cent per year. Japan was slated to overtake the U.S. by 2005.The World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) termed it an “East Asian Miracle” in their publications and called it a model for other nations like India. However, in 1997, a sudden financial blowout knocked out these countries and all the talk of miracle evaporated. Japan is yet to recover from that blowout.As it stands at present, the Indian economy is headed for a crisis and a crash. The likely date is by early 2016 in my estimation. Can a course correction today rectify and rescue the economy from a crash? Yes, of course, but only if there are short-term and long-term prescriptions to be followed. Does the Narendra Modi government have such contingency prescriptions ready? Not as of now.
What then are my prescriptions? First, the government must constitute a Crisis Management Team (CMT) of politicians and economists who understand the dynamics of Indian society and, more importantly, the general equilibrium calculus of an economy. [b]At present, there is no such team in place. The economists in the government today are mostly ‘hand-me-downs’ from the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government, and are all of the IMF/World Bank vintage.[/b]
These are institutions which had miserably failed to either foresee or rectify the financial crises in Latin America in the 1970s; in East Asia in late 1990s; and even in the U.S. —where these two institutions are headquartered — in 2008. IMF/World Bank studies are of value only as tabular, statistical compilations and no more. Hence, the CMT has to consist of those who are rooted in the ethos of India and not compliant to international financial institutions.Second, to know what crisis-managing reforms to initiate, we must first know which problem to focus on and prioritise for action. In my considered opinion, the following questions deserve immediate answers and consequent policy rectification:

a) Despite crude oil prices having crashed and the dollar value of the rupee having dropped in a steep devaluation, why have both exports and imports, especially the former in 23 of the 30 commodity groups, declined steadily over the last 14 months?
b) Why have household savings, which were the bulk of national domestic investments, dropped from a high of 34 per cent of GDP in 2005 to 28 per cent of GDP in 2015?

c) Why have the Non-Performing Assets (NPAs) of the public sector banks risen so sharply, in fact at a rate much higher than the rate of the new advances made by these banks?
d) When the economy needs about a $1 trillion investment in infrastructure to render ‘Make in India’ a reality, why is the actual investment in just 75 projects in Financial Year 2015-16 valued at Rs.42,749 crore, less than the amount invested in 2005-06, which was Rs.44,511 crore?
e) Why has the manufacturing sector, which provides the bulk of employment to the skilled and semi-skilled labour force, grown at an abysmally low rates of between 2 per cent and 5 per cent?
f) Why, when India’s agricultural products are among the cheapest in the world despite a low yield per hectare, are we not able to double the production and export the products abroad?

To address these priority problems, it is essential to implement a menu of measures to uplift the household sentiments by abolishing the personal income tax; by lowering the cost of capital, by reducing the prime lending interest rates of banks to below 10 per cent; by shifting to a fixed exchange rate of Rs.50 per dollar for the financial year 2016; and lowering the exchange rate further for subsequent years; by abolishing Participatory Notes while invoking the U.N. Resolution of 2005 to bring back black money of about $1 trillion; and by printing rupee notes to fully finance basic infrastructure projects.Incidentally, the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) Governor, Raghuram Rajan, has single-handedly brought a huge slowdown to the Indian manufacturing sector and exports. As a doctor, he has believed that the best way to bring down the temperature of a patient (i.e., inflation) is to kill him (investment starvation).By raising and keeping interest rates high and hence making the cost of capital prohibitive, he has killed the essential manufacturing investments in Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) and in export ventures. The Prime Minister is best advised to replace him with someone like Dr. R Vaidyanathan who is presently Professor of Finance in the Indian Institute of Management-Bangalore (IIM-B).The CMT should also initiate steps for transforming agriculture into a globalised sector by providing adequate infrastructure to export food and milk to Europe and the U.S.In the long run, we need to tap the advantages we have in our demographic dividend. Through innovation, we must tap our vast Thorium deposits for clean electricity generation and thus end power shortage; set up desalination plants along our long coastline to provide adequate water for coastal States; overcome technological issues and build a water grid by linking major rivers, from Ganga to Cauvery, through canals; and develop new alternative technologies such as hydrogen fuel cells to provide an environmentally friendly substitute to petroleum products.
Alternative ideological thrust
As I have written before, including in The Hindu, the government also needs to give an alternative ideological thrust to economic policy rather than trying to improve up the past failed UPA economic policies. In particular:
a) The individual has to be persuaded by the state through incentives and not through coercion.
b) India can make rapid economic progress to become a developed country only through a globally competitive economy which requires assured access to the markets and technological innovations of the United States and some of its allies such as Israel and Japan. This has concomitant political obligations which must be accepted as essential.
c) Such rapid progress would require a national security strategy for a peaceful environment.
d) The Indian state has to be minimalist in regulatory interventions in social and economic matters; maximalist in providing the quality of life needs; and optimal in the maintenance of law and order.
e) The key goal of the state has to be to empower the individual through a modern education system that gives importance to both material and spiritual progress.
f) An ethos developed on the concepts of trusteeship of wealth, philanthropy and voluntary group action encouraged by religious sanction for the better distribution of income and for minimising economic contradictions and deprivation.
g) At present, generally, the Indian has loyalty to the family but is apathetic to the community where he lives. There are character flaws that have come from two centuries of deprivation and are incompatible with a people forming a great nation. These flaws can be rectified by developing a strong and coherent concept of national identity whose defining characteristics can be culled from a correct perception of Indian history.
India has always come out of crises renewed and on a higher growth path. The food crisis of 1965-67 led to Green Revolution self sufficiency in food, and the foreign exchange crisis of 1990-91 led to economic reforms, enabling the country to move away from Soviet-style statism to market system and high growth rates.Thus, the present imminent economic crash should galvanise the way we do business and make us rise to new heights through innovation and achieve high growth rates with financial stability.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Dipanker » 18 Sep 2015 03:31

chaanakya wrote:
Dipanker wrote:Even with the present number of engineering colleges, polytechnics, and ITI's , there is massive unemployment among the technical trained manpower in these states, and that is mostly due to lack of sufficient industrial activity in these states.

Given the level of unemployment, the current supply itself is hugely surplus. So adding more engineering colleges will only add up to unemployment pool.

If industrial activity was to pick up in these states such that demand started to outstrip supply then supply will naturally increase.

You have to see the problem from all angles.Bihar produces 5.85 pass-outs from 10+2 streams. UP Produces 14.5 Lkahs.. Half od the seats in TN and Ktk are used up by those from Bihar and UP who can afford to go out , pay higher fees and premium and then find employment. That is their ticket out of educational hell hole that these two states are in. It is not that students are not good enough. They are far better but not all can afford to go out. Compare this number to engineering, polytechnic and ITI seats available.
BH and UP has missed the Bus in 1194-1999. Employment opportunities did not exit in states like TN and Ktk. Most of them got job in code coolie types and became NRIs. Situation was better than what they would have go otherwise in TN or in other places. Obviously Biharis and UP Bhaiyyas could have done the same. But that chance was not afforded to majority of them due to Jungalraj. TN and Ktk among others had better chance not only for their own students but for BH and UP. We should thank them.
You have to compare this with number of engineering seats in TN vis a vis 10+2 pass outs.(7.29 lakhs in TN Board and Engineering seats 2.36lakhs and 498 colleges) UP has 329 colleges and 1.36 lakhs seats. Compare that also with population. And you will realise the problem. It is not simply demand and supply issue . Education is key to better life for all of them.

For Bihar it is 5200 seats in 19 colleges. That sucks. What this bloody Nikuamma was doing after yadava rule.



I am little bit skeptical about the figure of 5,000 you are quoting. Bihar has over 25 Engineering colleges including an IIT. Perhaps these 5,000 may just be the seats available only in the govt. engineering college? And there are more in the 20 odd private engineering colleges?

Of course UP has many more and remember my argument was for UP and Bihar combined which you highlighted and marked wrong!

Does UP needs more engineering college, I think you would agree with me that it does not.

Now Bihar has over 25 engineering colleges, does Bihar need more? I think the more relevant question is can Bihar gainfully employ all the engineers it is producing? I am afraid the answer is going to be not, and certainly not after carving out of Jharkhand from it which happened to be the industrialized part of the state. Without Jharkhand Bihar has practically no industry whatsoever. Incidentally Bihar also lost half its engineering college to Jharkhand.

Yes a certain number Biharis and UPites who fail to get admission in the local engineering colleges because they did not make the cut do go to engineering colleges in south because they can afford to pay. This has been the trend for a long time.

So there is a demand, question is what stops the private sector from filling the demand gap? After all there are already 20 of them operating, and after all the engineering colleges they go to in south are all private colleges.

Now I will agree that both Bihar and UP lag in educational sector and level of literacy compared to rest of the country but even then there are massive number of educated people including engineers unemployed in these states ( hence 2300000 application for just 368 peon jobs, many of the applicants being engineers).

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby csaurabh » 18 Sep 2015 06:08

Bhai log, what is this demand for opening more and more 'engineering kaalej' ? There are some 3000 engg college in UP now, all of them have only one purpose - to get money out of students. The quality of the teaching there is so poor that the average student coming out of them is not any better than a 12th pass. Most of these 'graduates' go for BPOs, bank jobs, etc.

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Re: Indian Economy News & Discussion - Aug 26 2015

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2015 06:58

can someone list the biggest public and private sector employers in Bihar. let us study this as a test case. with a pop of 100 million there ought to be dozens of large units in both PSU and private sectors there for things to be in balance.


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