Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2015 08:21

Paul wrote:Has anyone noticed that the number of IAF crashes has drastically come down in the past few months. What is going on here?

What a badly worded question!

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 22 Nov 2015 08:25

Doc, I knew you would respond to it. It was 11:30 pm at night when I posted this? Hope the message got thru. That is all to it.

Hope someone will look into it and confirm improved state of readiness is my fond hope.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2015 08:32

vishal wrote:
Kumar Vinod wrote:It was love at first Sight in Pathankot. I was Near the runway End and came through two mig 21 came at very low landing gear open and touched the Runway like a Race Car.. Chutes came from back from end and it slowed down. I know they are old but I feel very excited while seeing a MIG 21 Land at high Speed. No other Can steal the Charm of MIG 21https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0o8ZRSQ_b5pWjRxFGTwV2HXlN8VITStcQkW2n3kF-5m2fJOQN
This story is OT but it involves a pair of MiG 21's. I must have been in class 4 or 5 at the time and my father was posted at IAF Station Chakeri in Kanpur. The runway was not too far from where we lived (or so it seemed to boys on bicycles). Around 3 or 4 of us rode up to the fence around the tarmac, parked our bicycles there and found a hole in the fence. For lack of much else to do and a complete ignorance of the consequences we started walking/running through the open ground on the side of the tarmac towards the runway. We managed to reach the edge of the runway when we heard sirens screaming in the distance. A minute or so later 2 Jeep's slammed to a standstill right next to us and AF Police jumped out from them. We were taken to a safe location at a distance from the runway & asked a few basic questions. They asked us our fathers' names and service numbers (every kid knows the service number regardless of how young he or she is!). So we asked what the fuss was about (kids can get away with being brazen most of the time). Turns out a pair of MiG21's were on a landing approach and the ATC had to wave them off because they saw a bunch of kids on the runway through their binoculars. The situation was particularly urgent because the MiG's didn't have too much fuel left. The AFP were very nice to us. They took us back to where we had dumped our bicycles and let us go. I still chuckle when I try to imagine what must have gone through the ATC observers head when he saw boys scrambling on the tarmac and the exchange that would have taken place between the pilots & the ATC.

Also, my dad taught my mother how to drive our Amby on a runway because there was nothing there for her to ram the car into. And yes, she had trouble telling the accelerator from the brake at the time which is why my dad decided to take her to the tarmac... in the interest of public safety.

+1 to both posts and thanks for bringing back memories. December 1970 - I was a schoolboy visiting my cousin at Hindon. I could watch the runway from the roof of his bachelor's qtrs. The roar of the MiG 21 would become louder and louder - almost unbearable and then "Whuump!" the afterburner comes on and the roar morphs into an unearthly moan as the MiG jumps forward. This goes on for a while and then silence for a bit - then suddenly four Hunters appear from nowhere - in formation. They peel off one by one over the runway like dancers leaving the stage - and then they come onto land one by one. That evening - first day first show - Mera Naam Joker had been released.

The kid on runway being let off is true too. As a boy I wandered off to the edge of the runway at Lohegaon to watch a Super Connie do two touch-and-go landings. The jeep came before the third - with a threat to hand me over to the civilian police.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2015 08:35

Paul wrote:Doc, I knew you would respond to it. It was 11:30 pm at night when I posted this? Hope the message got thru. That is all to it.

Hope someone will look into it and confirm improved state of readiness is my fond hope.

Actually a series of CASs have been referring to a decreasing accident rate for some years. The only point I want to stress is that flying military aircraft is often done in risky situations so the accident rate will never be zero. However if it happens to be zero for many months we are happy. Absolute zero accident rate means an air force is not flying.

member_29151 · Post by **member_29151** » 22 Nov 2015 08:48

vishal wrote:
Kumar Vinod wrote:It was love at first Sight in Pathankot. I was Near the runway End and came through two mig 21 came at very low landing gear open and touched the Runway like a Race Car.. Chutes came from back from end and it slowed down. I know they are old but I feel very excited while seeing a MIG 21 Land at high Speed. No other Can steal the Charm of MIG 21
This story is OT but it involves a pair of MiG 21's. I must have been in class 4 or 5 at the time and my father was posted at IAF Station Chakeri in Kanpur. The runway was not too far from where we lived (or so it seemed to boys on bicycles). Around 3 or 4 of us rode up to the fence around the tarmac, parked our bicycles there and found a hole in the fence. For lack of much else to do and a complete ignorance of the consequences we started walking/running through the open ground on the side of the tarmac towards the runway. We managed to reach the edge of the runway when we heard sirens screaming in the distance. A minute or so later 2 Jeep's slammed to a standstill right next to us and AF Police jumped out from them. We were taken to a safe location at a distance from the runway & asked a few basic questions. They asked us our fathers' names and service numbers (every kid knows the service number regardless of how young he or she is!). So we asked what the fuss was about (kids can get away with being brazen most of the time). Turns out a pair of MiG21's were on a landing approach and the ATC had to wave them off because they saw a bunch of kids on the runway through their binoculars. The situation was particularly urgent because the MiG's didn't have too much fuel left. The AFP were very nice to us. They took us back to where we had dumped our bicycles and let us go. I still chuckle when I try to imagine what must have gone through the ATC observers head when he saw boys scrambling on the tarmac and the exchange that would have taken place between the pilots & the ATC.

Also, my dad taught my mother how to drive our Amby on a runway because there was nothing there for her to ram the car into. And yes, she had trouble telling the accelerator from the brake at the time which is why my dad decided to take her to the tarmac... in the interest of public safety.

.
Well that might be safety hazard. It was in time that the ATC noticed you at long runway end.
I guess the conversation .
Mig21: ATC REQUEST FOR LANDING LOW ON FUEL .
ATC: ROGER THAT CLEAR TO LAND.
RUNWAY OBSERVATION TO ATC: SIR WE SEE KIDS ON THE END WITH bicycles ON THE TARMAC .
ATC : WHAT

ATC : MiG 21: We See kids on runway abort the landing .
MIG21: Roger. Make it Quick . I M Burning Feul Here and Freaking Out.
ATC: Jwo in charge : Sharma Ji Get a AFP unit and Clear the runway.
Sharma ji : Yes Sir.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 20:44

Folks I saw something today that really got me excited. Was only luck that enabled me to see it given the rainy weather have had.

To me it looked like Saras was back in the air. It looked like the Saras - engines in the right place and a high T-tail. Offwhite in colour - not Tipnis grey. The sound was like a turboprop - but different from the old Saras. The only thing I did not have time to see given that it was visible only for 2-3 seconds was an absolute confirmation that I spotted pusher props.

Is their any jet powered Saras clone? If there is could someone post a link so it can jog my memory of what I saw?

I am quite familiar with the engine noises I hear around these parts. This one was new and different, and this is the second time I have heard it - I heard it first time a few days ago.

I am hoping that I did actually spot the Saras back in the air.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 20:48

Oh yes and this was pretty much the colour. But to my disappointment I can clearly recall that there was no nose probe..

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 23 Nov 2015 20:53

I saw an aircraft with Saras profile flying over Kanakapura Road on Sunday afternoon.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Nov 2015 21:17

Hmm - there's a good chance that it is flying again - you heard it here first!

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 23 Nov 2015 23:26

I remember seeing something like the Piaggio P.180 Avanti (I too thought that it was a Saras, but the profile was too different) last week. Not sure if you guys saw the same thing.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Nov 2015 07:34

abhik wrote:I remember seeing something like the Piaggio P.180 Avanti (I too thought that it was a Saras, but the profile was too different) last week. Not sure if you guys saw the same thing.

No. Definitely not because that Piaggio regularly flies over my house and I used to run out but now I can recognize it by sound. It has a characteristic "can't miss it" foreplane/canard. Its engines have a much louder a and harsher note than the plane I saw. That one was Saras alright and I am only doubting myself because I make it a point to try and get as many identifying features as possible - in this case I had no time to observe the translucent disc of rotating props (difficult to spot) and I am "anxious" that it may have been some other jet powered plane that looks just like Saras.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 24 Nov 2015 08:44

abhik wrote:I remember seeing something like the Piaggio P.180 Avanti (I too thought that it was a Saras, but the profile was too different) last week. Not sure if you guys saw the same thing.

Even its colour theme is not same as the one described by Shiv ji.

I missed yesterday's flying as I was out. Hope to catch the next one!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Nov 2015 20:28

ADRDE is planning to build a powered airship!

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 24 Nov 2015 20:45

I could not spot any props either. So it may or may not have been the Saras. But I saw it for only 2 secs.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 24 Nov 2015 21:23

Could have been an Embraer ERJ-135. The profile from the bottom up looks more or less similar to Saras though Saras fuselage length is slightly shorter. The engine placement of ERJ-135 is slightly different (more forward) than Saras. And IAF has a few of them for transporting VIP folks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Nov 2015 22:16

No Zynda. Not at all. That plane was Saras. Wings not swept back. No winglets. My main area of doubt is that I could not spot the props but the sound was that of a prop.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Nov 2015 22:33

Saras wing should be a give away also the push prop is hard to miss as just behind the wing and these days rarely see these types , I just saw saras one at AI 05 flying high but had distinct sound , They could be some unoffical flight of Saras before they claim official first flight after the incident

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Nov 2015 05:50

Austin wrote:Saras wing should be a give away also the push prop is hard to miss as just behind the wing and these days rarely see these types , I just saw saras one at AI 05 flying high but had distinct sound , They could be some unoffical flight of Saras before they claim official first flight after the incident

They have done this in the past (ie not going public) when flying is "resumed". At least they did that with IJT.

I have a recording of Saras from back then (2007)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqt30aI3Zzw

The stupid video is silent. Don't know what I must have been thinking. Need to reupload with sound

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 25 Nov 2015 08:05

After the episode of the Russian bomber being shot down and Women venturing into fighter pilot roles,
let me bring back this concept of jetpack to be integrated into the Ejection seats so the SAR teams are spared the risky evacuations and ejected pilots flying close to the ground can make it to a safe evacuation position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaNZzUg5Opg

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 25 Nov 2015 15:17

Sitanshu Kar ‏@SpokespersonMoD 19h19 hours ago
Sqn Ldr Kamaljeet Kaur - the first woman pilot to fly #Tigermoth- vintage aircraft of #IAF .

With Boeing Stearman vintage aircraft of ace aviator Tracey Curtis Taylor:

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 26 Nov 2015 17:25

India, US make progress on jet engine, aircraft carrier cooperation.

......
During the 4th meeting of the India-US Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) Group held at the Pentagon on November 17, officials of the two countries discussed the way ahead for the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working, which included exchanging strategies for government and industry cooperation.

Co-chaired by Frank Kendall, Undersecretary of Defence for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, and by A K Gupta, Indian Secretary (Defence Production), the meeting reviewed progress on the six DTTI Pathfinder efforts announced in January by Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Barack Obama.

These includes next Generation Cheel Mini Unmanned Aerial Vehicle; Roll-on/Roll-off Kits for C-130s; Mobile Electric Hybrid Power Sources (MEHPS), Next Generation Protective Ensemble (NGPE), Aircraft Carrier Technology Working Group and Jet Engine Technology Cooperation.
......

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 29 Nov 2015 02:22

India on the lookout for fighters apart from Rafales.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is hunting for fighter aircraft apart from the Rafale medium multi-role combat ones and the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) to meet the existing shortage, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said after the handing over of Presidential Standards to two Mig-27ML squadrons by President Pranab Mukherjee at Air Force Station Hasimara on Saturday. The IAF would be forming several more squadrons in the next few years, the air chief said.

"There are shortages. We will be retiring the Mig-27MLs that have not been upgraded in the last 2-3 years. One of the squadrons at Hasimara will also be retired in 2016. We are looking forward to receiving the Rafales. Apart from this, there are other aircraft we are looking at. We will also be getting more Su-30MKIs. An order has also been placed for 120 Tejas Mk-IIs. There are many plans and things will change in the next 10-12 years," Raha said in response to a question from TOI.

He did not elaborate on which aircraft India has its eye set upon. According to sources, it could well be the F-18 Super Hornet that had competed with the Rafale when India was on the lookout for 126 MMRCAs. Recently, Boeing has offered to set up a manufacturing facility in India and manufacture F-18s to suit the country's needs. So has Dassault, the French company that manfactures Rafales. Without being specific, Raha made it clear that the IAF no longer wants to get over-reliant on any particular variety of aircraft. If the un-upgraded Mig-27MLs are to be retired, the IAF is likely to lose two more squadrons in the near future.

Raha said that creation of assets depends on threat perceptions and steps are being taken to build infrastructure. "There are voids, both infrastructure and security-wise, both in the northeastern states and elsewhere in the country. We are working towards upgrading Advanced Landing Grounds to accommodate fixed wing aircraft as well. As of now, we don't have plans to build new air bases in the northeastern sector but will upgrade existing ones. However, we are trying to share civil airfields at certain locations. The government is also looking towards the building of roads and other infrastructure for better connectivity and development, economic and otherwise," he said.

According to him, there are several unused air bases in West Bengal that may get activated in the days to come. Land acquisition is not and issue as the IAF has enough property of its own in the state. The Rampurhat air field has already been activated. Some IAF aircraft are also landing and taking-off from Rampurhat to check out conditions. Though infrastructure is being created in this sector, Raha doesn't believe that China should be treated as an adversary.

"They have been aggressive in the past. We do have some border issues but better co-operation and understanding will have to be achieved for overall development of the region. Both are large countries with huge populations. They can work better together. India has a very important role to play internationally and to maintain this, we will have to increase our military capabilities. While working towards this, there are plans to base important hardware at Hasimara."

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 29 Nov 2015 02:43

^ The future IAF orbat does not have space for another fighter.

At the moment, mulitple fighters are jostling for a future in IAF, in order of certainity:

- LCA
- Rafale
- PAK FA
- AMCA

I am certain that the PAKFA will one day find its way in, as the next Russian jet after the Su-30.

gnair · Post by **gnair** » 29 Nov 2015 03:57

If the jigs and tooling for the phased out Mirage-2000 line is available, then every attempt should be made to bring that in from Dassault. It's a familiar aircraft and there is no need to go through a learning curve from ground up. Besides it's not an obsolete design yet. All it needs is updated avionics. And this should be re-exported as well to countries that have a need for this class of fighter. I hope someone is thinking on these lines.
To the folks at Dassault - not every body needs a Raffale but there is huge fighter jet market out there that is not being serviced and the Chinese are entering that space with their low priced but questionable performance wares.

Re-starting the Jaguar production line for a batch of 40 isn't a high-risk high-cost project either. They could replace all the retiring Mig-27's relatively soon. New built Jags with higher powered Honeywell engines and Elta radars should cut it for quite a few mission profiles.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Nov 2015 04:31

IAF should try to focus on the LCA. They should look at incremental development. Mark II development standard is ready. They should get that to fructify in 3 years.120 MK1 and 1A in phase -1. 200 MK II in phase -2. They should look at a second vendor to produce Mark II separate from HAL. Maybe set up another design bureau.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Nov 2015 04:45

MK3 specs should now be worked upon and finalized.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Nov 2015 04:52

LCA is probably way better than 27s and at least as good as Jags. Why waste money on upgrading 27s and Jags.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Nov 2015 15:05

Stop seeing China as an adversary, says IAF chief Arup Raha

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 960794.cms

MIG-27 to be phased out in the next couple of years: Arup Raha, Air Chief Marshal

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 962073.cms

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 29 Nov 2015 15:33

Vivek K wrote:LCA is probably way better than 27s and at least as good as Jags. Why waste money on upgrading 27s and Jags.

MiG-27 fulfills a Close air support role in IAF along with MiG-21M. I believe it is the only fighter in IAF with a 6 barrel gatling machine gun. The aircraft is armoured to take hits which will come air defence.

Jaguar has a specialised low level penetration role over land and sea. Over land it can take on enemy armour using CBU-105s or BL-755s while over sea it can launch Harpoon missiles. In recent upgrades an auto pilot mode has been introduced which i think will allow automatic low level flight.

Can LCA perform these roles?

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Nov 2015 15:37

^^^

When did MiG-27 get armored up? First time hearing it.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 29 Nov 2015 15:53

You can see the armour plate on the cockpit:

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Nov 2015 16:41

^^^

I don't see it? Can you point me to written source that says MiG-27 is armored? What sort of armor? Is it only the cockpit armored?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Nov 2015 17:00

Aditya G wrote:
MiG-27 fulfills a Close air support role in IAF along with MiG-21M. I believe it is the only fighter in IAF with a 6 barrel gatling machine gun. The aircraft is armoured to take hits which will come air defence.

The MiG 27s had the highest crash rate in the IAF, unfairly blamed on the MiG 21 by our ignoramus presstitutes and that cannon gave a lot of trouble initially at least

Demo firing from an early IAF MiG 23 with that cannon (despite it's appearance, it is a MiG 23, not a 27)

The explosion is fake - a demo for Shri Rajiv Gandhi ji and Shrimati Sonia Maino ji
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHV_I47uSHQ

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 29 Nov 2015 23:18

srai wrote:^^^

I don't see it? Can you point me to written source that says MiG-27 is armored? What sort of armor? Is it only the cockpit armored?

Look again:

http://www.airvectors.net/avmig23_2.html

The cockpit featured armor glass and steel armor panels alongside the cockpit, plus heavy aluminum belly panels to protect the engine.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 29 Nov 2015 23:57

this is brutal

http://www.sps-aviation.com/experts-spe ... -privatise

Nishant Dumped Finally – when will we privatise?

By Lt. General P.C. Katoch
Former Director General of Information Systems, Indian Army

Nishant UAV

Photo Credit: DRDO

Yet another failed crash landing of DRDO’s Nishant UAV shows the dismal state of the governmental defence-industrial complex. To meet the Army’s needs for intelligence gathering over enemy territory, as also for reconnaissance, training, surveillance, target designation, artillery fire correction, damage assessment, ELINT and SIGINT, it was decided in September 1988 that the DRDO would undertake the indigenous development of its UAV. The GSQR was finalized by the Army in May 1990 and the Nishant UAV attempted its first test flight in 1995.

But 20 years later and having spent some Rs 90 crores on the project, periodic crash landings of Nishant have again brought into focus the gross lack of accountability of DRDO and its inability to meet military requirements with successive CAG reports highlighting endemic corruption in the organization. As per media reports, the two decade old Rs 90 crores Nishant UAV program has proved a “DUD”, with the Indian Army shelving the system and cancelling any further orders after three of the four systems supplied by the DRDO. The media further says that the DRDO had actually overspent Rs 5 crores in the vain hope of recovering the project – it actually means 20 years plus Rs 95 crores down the drain, leave aside keeping the Army deficient all these years of an indigenous UAV that was meant to be the eyes and ears of the Army, providing high definition images of battlefield, help designate targets, and provide electronic and signal intelligence information.

The 380 kg Nishant UAV is planned for endurance of four hours and thirty minutes, required rail-launching from a hydro-pneumatic launcher and is able to be recovered by a parachute system. The Mobile Hydro-Pneumatic Launcher (MHPL) system mounted on a Tatra truck weighs 14,000 kg and a life cycle of 1000 launches before requiring overhaul. DRDO boasted that Nishant is one of the few UAVs in the world in its weight-class capable of being catapult-launched and recovered by using parachute, thus eliminating the need for a runway as in the case of conventional take-off and landing with wheels. As always happens, with DRDO’s governmental clout, many a times imperfect equipment and systems gets dumped into the military on the excuse that so much money has already been spent. But the Army has had enough with Nishant UAV with the latest crash bringing all the four introduced into service to the same fate. Significantly, each of these drones had cost the Army Rs 22 crore. Introduced into service in 2011, the last of the four Nishants in service with the Army crashed near the Pokhran range in Rajasthan. According to Army sources the crash was because of a technical glitch. Just 15 days back, another Nishant had gone down, also for a technical reason. Earlier in April, two other Nishant drones had crash landed near the India-Pakistan border near Jaisalmer. For their part, the DRDO in its usual manner has blamed the user for poor handling of the system, a point categorically denied by the Army. The irony is that this game has been gone on for decades with no one held accountable in the DRDO. In recent months, the issue of DRDO spending Rs 5 crores of government funds for crafting a silver chariot for Rath Yatra even had come up in Parliament. Very significantly, a smaller drone named Nethra developed by IIT graduates has been in use with police, para-military forces and the National Disaster Relief Force. Perhaps a private company could have easily developed a better UAV for the Army in just 2-3 years, given the fact that many indigenous companies have been marketing drones and even camcopters. The irony here is that while this monolith of DRDO cannot produce a worthwhile drone in 20 years, Pakistan has already developed and deployed its own armed drone.

The government needs to seriously reflect at this dire state of development not only to pull up DRDO, but also to usher accountability and even stop its false propaganda in media of achievements that are quite imperfect. One example is the Akash AD system that DRDO has been bragging about. Commenced in 1980’s, it was supposed to replace the vintage Kvadrat system for providing AD cover during mechanized maneuvers. It failed during Army trials in early 2000 and so was dumped on the IAF because it worked in ‘static’ mode. Now three regiments worth of Akash are being inducted into the Army post massive media blitz that this is an “improved version”. One regiment has already having been raised but the stark reality is that the Army is forced to still use this “improved version” of Akash in ‘static’ role. DRDO has already been developing a wheeled version of Nishant, termed Panchi. Hope another schoolboy level imperfect DRDO invention doesn’t get dumped on the Army again just because DRDO spent money. How long are we going to permit DRDO to fool the nation?

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Nov 2015 00:25

Aditya G wrote:
srai wrote:^^^

I don't see it? Can you point me to written source that says MiG-27 is armored? What sort of armor? Is it only the cockpit armored?
Look again:

http://www.airvectors.net/avmig23_2.html

The cockpit featured armor glass and steel armor panels alongside the cockpit, plus heavy aluminum belly panels to protect the engine.

The description you quoted is for MiG-23BN in that article. It's not clear as to what armor was retained in the MiG-27 from that. Maybe someone ex-IAF familiar with MiG-27 could shed some light on this?

These photos that external cockpit armor is missing. Is it removable? Or was it discarded in the MiG-27UPG?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 30 Nov 2015 01:24

srai wrote:....The description you quoted is for MiG-23BN in that article. It's not clear as to what armor was retained in the MiG-27 from that. Maybe someone ex-IAF familiar with MiG-27 could shed some light on this?...

Why is it so difficult for you to accept this fact?

From the same article:

The MiG-27 was finally deployed to Afghanistan in 1988, with a single air regiment stocked with 36 MiG-27Ms and 4 MiG-23UB two-seaters sent to Shinand Air Base, as something of a combat evaluation program. The MiG-27Ms were generally used in high-altitude bombing attacks up to the withdrawal of Soviet forces in early 1989. The conclusion of the tour was that the MiG-27 was reliable and its cockpit armor very much an asset,

More pictoral evidence. #3 is the upgraded variant.

You are welcome.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 30 Nov 2015 01:28

This is actually the exact kind of rubbish even people like Shri Katoch turn out from time to time. He is an acknowledged authority on SF but sometimes his views are all over the place. One fine day its the malfeasance of current GOI and OROP and great shri Saikat Datta is proferring advice whilst running down VKS. Other day its all sort of slurs and claims against an indigenous program which came good despite the import dalals. Yet another day, he will be speaking on C3I programs and how everyone has got it wrong. There is no attempt at nuance, no attempt to even take into consideration what other folks say. In the STUFF below for instance, there is not even a basic understanding of how & what the Akash's architecture is set up for. Its a different thing if he had cribbed about how the Strike Corps or X unit requires a true fire on the move, much smaller system which will have to be developed from scratch!

Taking a look at what he has written would make you think that every SAM the IA can get is some sort of uber mobile system. Anything but.

So far the Russians are testing the latest version of Pantsir to fire on the move. How mobile is it exactly? It will move slowly and carefully when it does so (no charge across the desert sands in a "mobile role").

So why is the Akash non mobile and static when required to be deployed? Its because of the high power radar units which far outperform those on the Pantsir and other systems. There is a 150km - 200 km ranged 3D CAR (outranging every radar that IA has had in service so far), and a 100km+ ranged BLR Rajendra, which is a massive phased array system, deliberately chosen to ensure its very hard to jam and enables true multitarget tracking. These are significant challenges to stabilize - do so, as was done with the Revathi and you suddenly need bigger and larger vehicles. Good luck managing all that with a T-72 based compact platform.

These high power radar choices were made keeping both IA & IAF in mind & the fact that lack of other sensor assets in both services meant that the SAM system itself would act like a quasi sensor net with a huge coverage. It also means the Akash has significant growth potential, since the missile at 25km is far outranged by its sensor support system.

And he is cribbing that these systems are not "mobile" and have to be used in "static positions" without even acknowledging that the system is designed for quick deployment and packing and then redeployment again, which ALL SAM systems with such long range sensor systems utilize, S3XX for instance.

Will the LRSAM be able to be fired on the move? Hardly. Its MFCR will have to be deployed, the SAM, C3I nets will all have to be linked together with datalinks once the onboard data position sensors accurately punch in the data. Even a few meters error in the position of the SAM systems and sensors can make a huge difference. Hence the Russians used combined missile + radar systems on one vehicle. However, guess what, its vulnerable to ARMS now.

Check radar deployment here - see the outriggers deployed to stabilize the radar system?
[img]https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-i0z2tYn0s0o/ ... 5MRSAM.jpg

India developed its systems to protect widely dispersed assets.

Comparing systems of this sort to a mobile Pantsir, Tungushka kind of system is the heights of folly. Yet he has done so & is busy cursing the developers for compensating for weak services sensor systems because of which the entire system has to be as self contained as possible, which too was a practical consideration made by folks from the IA/IAF way back when thinking of what all an Akash should include.

BTW, the IA is taking some 30 odd 3D TCRs derived from the Akash sytem, with a reduced 90km range for a more compact vehicle based system. So much for lack of mobility.

If the IA requires mobile SAM systems that can accompany fast moving strike corps (which lets face it wont be as fast either as the term suggests) and is only content with SAM coverage from mobile SAM systems which can fire on the move, then the only option it has is to import the Pantsir as and when it enters service in its latest variant and then sit and complain about missing spares and zero support (Smerch, T-90, Krasnopol, yada yada).

Or it can employ some common sense and ask for Track on the Move & fire when stopped (fire from short stop), from a reasonable deployment perspective, which is typically what the QRSAM program is meant to address. The compromise will be shorter ranged sensor coverage (at best half that of the current 3D CAR) but that is the tradeoff for mobility!

In short nuance matters - which his statements completely miss.

Not even going to bother with the rest of his claims about Nishant & Nethra - similar over the top rhetoric employed ignoring all data to the contrary.

maxratul wrote:this is brutal

http://www.sps-aviation.com/experts-spe ... -privatise

Nishant Dumped Finally – when will we privatise?

By Lt. General P.C. Katoch
Former Director General of Information Systems, Indian Army

Nishant UAV

Photo Credit: DRDO

Yet another failed crash landing of DRDO’s Nishant UAV shows the dismal state of the governmental defence-industrial complex. To meet the Army’s needs for intelligence gathering over enemy territory, as also for reconnaissance, training, surveillance, target designation, artillery fire correction, damage assessment, ELINT and SIGINT, it was decided in September 1988 that the DRDO would undertake the indigenous development of its UAV. The GSQR was finalized by the Army in May 1990 and the Nishant UAV attempted its first test flight in 1995.

But 20 years later and having spent some Rs 90 crores on the project, periodic crash landings of Nishant have again brought into focus the gross lack of accountability of DRDO and its inability to meet military requirements with successive CAG reports highlighting endemic corruption in the organization. As per media reports, the two decade old Rs 90 crores Nishant UAV program has proved a “DUD”, with the Indian Army shelving the system and cancelling any further orders after three of the four systems supplied by the DRDO. The media further says that the DRDO had actually overspent Rs 5 crores in the vain hope of recovering the project – it actually means 20 years plus Rs 95 crores down the drain, leave aside keeping the Army deficient all these years of an indigenous UAV that was meant to be the eyes and ears of the Army, providing high definition images of battlefield, help designate targets, and provide electronic and signal intelligence information.

The 380 kg Nishant UAV is planned for endurance of four hours and thirty minutes, required rail-launching from a hydro-pneumatic launcher and is able to be recovered by a parachute system. The Mobile Hydro-Pneumatic Launcher (MHPL) system mounted on a Tatra truck weighs 14,000 kg and a life cycle of 1000 launches before requiring overhaul. DRDO boasted that Nishant is one of the few UAVs in the world in its weight-class capable of being catapult-launched and recovered by using parachute, thus eliminating the need for a runway as in the case of conventional take-off and landing with wheels. As always happens, with DRDO’s governmental clout, many a times imperfect equipment and systems gets dumped into the military on the excuse that so much money has already been spent. But the Army has had enough with Nishant UAV with the latest crash bringing all the four introduced into service to the same fate. Significantly, each of these drones had cost the Army Rs 22 crore. Introduced into service in 2011, the last of the four Nishants in service with the Army crashed near the Pokhran range in Rajasthan. According to Army sources the crash was because of a technical glitch. Just 15 days back, another Nishant had gone down, also for a technical reason. Earlier in April, two other Nishant drones had crash landed near the India-Pakistan border near Jaisalmer. For their part, the DRDO in its usual manner has blamed the user for poor handling of the system, a point categorically denied by the Army. The irony is that this game has been gone on for decades with no one held accountable in the DRDO. In recent months, the issue of DRDO spending Rs 5 crores of government funds for crafting a silver chariot for Rath Yatra even had come up in Parliament. Very significantly, a smaller drone named Nethra developed by IIT graduates has been in use with police, para-military forces and the National Disaster Relief Force. Perhaps a private company could have easily developed a better UAV for the Army in just 2-3 years, given the fact that many indigenous companies have been marketing drones and even camcopters. The irony here is that while this monolith of DRDO cannot produce a worthwhile drone in 20 years, Pakistan has already developed and deployed its own armed drone.

The government needs to seriously reflect at this dire state of development not only to pull up DRDO, but also to usher accountability and even stop its false propaganda in media of achievements that are quite imperfect. One example is the Akash AD system that DRDO has been bragging about. Commenced in 1980’s, it was supposed to replace the vintage Kvadrat system for providing AD cover during mechanized maneuvers. It failed during Army trials in early 2000 and so was dumped on the IAF because it worked in ‘static’ mode. Now three regiments worth of Akash are being inducted into the Army post massive media blitz that this is an “improved version”. One regiment has already having been raised but the stark reality is that the Army is forced to still use this “improved version” of Akash in ‘static’ role. DRDO has already been developing a wheeled version of Nishant, termed Panchi. Hope another schoolboy level imperfect DRDO invention doesn’t get dumped on the Army again just because DRDO spent money. How long are we going to permit DRDO to fool the nation?

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Nov 2015 02:45

Aditya G,

No offense to you. I'm trying to understand as to what extent the armor is on MiG-27 since I wasn't aware of it before. That external cockpit armor seems to be removable since some pictures show it without.

Besides the cockpit, still trying find sources as to what other areas are armored on MiG-27. In MiG-23BN, there were some heavy aluminum under the engines as quoted in that article. Did that also transfer into the MiG-27? What sort of ammunition can those withstand? Cockpit as well as those heavy aluminum?

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Nov 2015 04:45

maxratul wrote:this is brutal

http://www.sps-aviation.com/experts-spe ... -privatise

Nishant Dumped Finally – when will we privatise?

By Lt. General P.C. Katoch
Former Director General of Information Systems, Indian Army
...

His reasoning seems bit too simplistic for the amount of bashing he does. No wonder indigenous products get a real bad name with people like Katoch using their "bona fide" credentials to beat down desi products. Who is he working for now? What sorts of indigenization was achieved in his tenure?

Also, one would think someone who is Director General of Information Systems would come from technical background. But apparently it is not so--titles are for seat fillers.
Three Star Discontent: Lt Gen PC Bhardwaj versus Lt Gen PC Katoch

...
Well anyway, Gen Bhardwaj is in the centre of a sticky HR mess in the Army's most sensitive command. After commanding 14 Corps in Leh, he took over as Northern Commander on March 1 this year, but he's been commanding without his crucial Chief of Staff, Lt Gen Prakash Chand Katoch (see photo, right), an Uttam Yudh Seva Medal awardee for Kargil. Katoch has proceeded on 90 days leave because he refuses to serve under Gen Bhardwaj -- a junior officer, 172 places below Katoch in the ladder of Army seniority. Gen Katoch is certain to be accomodated at Army Headquarters in Delhi very shortly as Director General Information Services -- such is the fever-pitch of angst, while Lt Gen JS Lidder will fill Katoch's position. But here's the glitch -- even Lidder is senior to Bhardwaj, but his relations with the Army top brass are not quite as healthy as Katoch's. You see what I mean? The incidence of such situtations has increased over the last ten-odd years.
...

Lt Gen PC Katoch comes from SF gaining fame from leading commando unit in Operation Bluestar.