Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 04 Oct 2016 23:05

shiv wrote:http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/india/iaf-plans-for-dedicated-satellite-on-track-sukhoi-to-fire-brahmos-in-3-months-aste--1.1402970
IAF plans for dedicated satellite on track; Sukhoi to fire BrahMos in 3 months
By Our Defence Correspondent

Bengaluru: The Indian Air Force (IAF) will soon have its own dedicated satellite to boost its operational capabilities. During a media interaction at the Aircraft and Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) here, as a run up to the 84th IAF Day on October 8, Air Vice-Marshal Sandeep Singh said the plan is on the move.

While he refused to give too many details on the project, set to be executed by the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), the ASTE Commandant said the process is on at IAF HQ towards having a dedicated satellite.

He said the availability of such a satellite, on the lines of Indian Navy (Rukmini from the GSAT series), would enhance IAF’s NCW (Network-Centric Warfare) capabilities. ”It certainly does increase the efficiency of our critical missions,” he said.

To a query on the use of Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System (IRNSS), AVM Sandeep Singh said the IAF will soon switch over to the desi GPS. He said the receivers for the purpose have been already made ready.

However, ISRO sources said that the project is yet to formally get a government nod, pointing that the IAF wait could be longer.

Saras project on road to revival

sarasThe 14-seater ambitious Saras project of National Aeronautics Limited (NAL) might see fair weather again with the government mulling a revival plan for the same. The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), that had almost shelved the plan, is on a rethink mode with additional funding in the pipeline.

As reported earlier, the funding for Saras project had dried up during UPA-2’s fag end putting the entire project into a spin. The project was already mired in overweight issues, a crash and a scathing CAG probe in a span of 11 years since its first flight in 2004.

ASTE had lost two Test Pilots and a Flight Test Engineer in the Saras crash in 2009. Now, the ASTE officials confirm the ‘revival plan,‘ having attended meeting(s) aimed at getting the platform back on air.

Sitara, the Intermediate Jet Trainer of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, is also on the ‘recovery mode’ after being in the ‘ICU’ for many years now. The project seems to have got a new impetus for its ‘spin and stall’ trials.

BrahMos test-firing from Sukhoi soon

iafOn the ongoing flight test programme of BrahMos supersonic missile being integrated on a modified Su30-MKI, ACM Sandeep said that advanced trials are in progress.

“We’ve already completed a dummy drop. The next step will be to test another parameter, before we fire the actual missile,” he said.

It was Wg Cdr Prashanth, a Test Pilot, and his buddy Wg Cdr M S Raju, a FTE, -- both from ASTE -- who had successfully carried out the first flight of Su-30MKI fitted with BrahMos on June 25 this year.

Interestingly, a PTI report quoted Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha saying today that the live missile would be fired in three months.

Tejas is best in its class; already in Hindon

iafThe top IAF pilot was all praise for the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, which was inducted into the IAF on July 1.

During his briefing, the ASTE Commandant said that the Tejas Squadron members are already at AFS Hindon for the AF Parade on October 8.

“Two aircraft will be at Hindon this time with one more likely to join,” he said.

He said the runway upgradation work and other construction activities are already in full swing at Sulur, near Coimbatore.

“Initially the Squadron will operate from Bengaluru and the Sulur facilities will be ready in the next two years,” AVM Sandeep said. The progress of work at Sulur, which will be the home for Tejas Squadron, is being monitored by the Southern Air Command, headquartered at Thiruvananthapuram.

As reported by Mathrubhumi earlier, the IAF teams have already flown Tejas for over 30 hours in the last three months alone, post induction.

PMT heading to France to fine-tune Rafales

iafWith India completing most of the formalities to buy 36 Rafale jets from France, a Project Management Team (PMT) from IAF is preparing for yet another overseas stint. This, according to ASTE officials, is a procedure being undertaken whenever new aircraft are bought from abroad.

“The whole idea is to get the Rafales with India-specific characteristics, as being often termed. The PMT was part of the teams abroad during MiG-21\MiG-27 upgrades and ahead of Sukhoi induction as well,” AVM Sandeep Singh said.

According to him, the presence of the PMT with the Dassault would help to customise the finer features of the aircraft, as desired by the IAF.

“Our pilots have already have flown the Rafale during its evaluation trials. They could take our guidance (PMT) before finalising the draft documents. There are many more activities we would involve in the next couple of years before the aircraft start coming to India,” he said.

Can’t rule out women Test Pilots in future

iafWith the IAF opening up the fighter streams to women pilots recently, ASTE is not ruling out the possibility of having Test Pilots from the fairer sex as well, in future.

To a query whether women could qualify to be TPs in future, ASTE officials said that it is a probability, subject to many conditions.

“First of all they will have to get Permanent Commission. Then they will have to qualify for all the stringent procedures ahead of becoming a TP. It could happen. We are not ruling it out. They are welcome and we have no gender bias here,” says an official.

ACM Arup Raha speaking to Mathrubhumi at AFA Hyderabad in June this year, did not rule out the possibility of a woman fighter heading IAF in future.

“I cannot say no, because the probability is there. If they do well. Normally the Chiefs are from the flying branch. They (the three girls) are already in the flying branch. And, if and when they get Permanent Commission, then they definitely have a chance,” he had said.

His views were also echoed by Air Marshal S R K Nair, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Headquarters Training Command. He had said that IAF is inclusive in all its activities giving equal opportunities to both men and women.

During the media visit on Tuesday, the ASTE also had organsied a flying and static display of some of its assets. Earlier, Chief Test Pilot Group Capt Subrato Chaki gave a rare insight into the activities of ASTE.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 04 Oct 2016 23:10

The news on Saras and IJT made my day!

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2016 00:27

I saw the orange-white IJT flying not 2 days ago. Great news indeed. Hope everything goes well.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 05 Oct 2016 00:29

OK, folks. Set your doubts to rest. This is straight from the horse's mouth. Ignore the first part of headline.

IAF chief spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons

Second fighter line

The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.

“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”

Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.

Jaguar

The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.

Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”

Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).

Indo-Russian FGFA

The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.

Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”

Tejas LCA

For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.

Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.

Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.

“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2016 00:37

Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology.


Ya..Sure... :lol: :lol:

Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.


So if we happen to buy F-16, We will service Paki F-16s..Yay... :lol: :lol:

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 05 Oct 2016 01:12

With what, 90 fighters? Can we just agree to buy a few more Rafales, upgrade the Su-30s, accelerate the LCA and put an end to the farce that is MMRCA..

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ragupta » 05 Oct 2016 03:08

one of the F1X will come, because there is need to build eco-system. Rafale alone will not build it, HAL as a public entity too slow and bureaucratic, We have not learned much from Russian, or they have not let us do so. The reason we cannot upgrade SU-MKI on our ownb, as we do Jaguar is proof enough, even though deep technology transfer was offered.

LCA manufacturing is slow not just because of skill, but frequent change request by IAF, the latest being Model A. So it will take time. It will come but after crossing many bumps put up by IAF from time to time to its induction. 10 years before all of them will be delivered.

Need matured product. F-1X will come if the terms are good. with that IAF will get American weapon delivery platform. I think if the terms are not good, then possibility of Gripen is there to build MIC/eco-system. Rafale by itself is too costly. Need cheaper fighter.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 05 Oct 2016 04:06

no ecosystem will be built by any F1X. unfortunately.
unless we convince ourselves building panels for F1X or putting together imported wire harnesses or screwing together turbines is = skill development. why will any country give us deep TOT for even smaller orders. gripen doesn't own most of its own fighters IP anyhow. selex owns the radar... oops selex is part of finmeccanica which we just blacklisted.

so f1x it seems is likely, most probably f/a-18 still take that as a weapons truck over f-16.

Su-30 has elevated manufacturing capability at HAL by leaps and bounds and also at partners. but our final answer should be LCA.

our issue is we want wine, are too divided within (which french exploited) and want to pay tharra prices. and MOD will trickle feed local programs and GOI has been pathetic for a decade. so many issues together.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 05 Oct 2016 04:12

the f/a-18 e/f in its growler & standard AESA variants can be a bomb truck par exemplar.

i'd still take the rafale though.

mirage 2000, mig-29, su-30 mki, lca mk1, mk1a, jaguar, rafale (7 types!)

now f/a-18, fgfa, amca (3 more types).

even if mirage 2000, mig-29 and jaguar are retired by time FGFA, AMCA come in.

still 6 types.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby malushahi » 05 Oct 2016 04:22

jaguar upgrade makes little sense if the case is being made for shornet.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 05 Oct 2016 04:45

malushahi wrote:jaguar upgrade makes little sense if the case is being made for shornet.

It makes a lot of sense to me :D

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby malushahi » 05 Oct 2016 04:55

indranilroy wrote:It makes a lot of sense to me :D


pray why?

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ragupta » 05 Oct 2016 05:11

Agree LCA/AMCA is an answer, but it will take time. in the meantime we need to acquire capability in whatever way possible and that is going to come incrementally.

Given that there is still gap in capability, it can be expedited only through bringing in established players and also involving private players. More Engineers will be trained and will get comparative private salaries, the talent pool will increase.

Building bombtruck may help and and some capability can be acquired through F1X, which may help the overall goal of LCA/MCA.

Further India requires technology economy to grow, aerospace/electronics can be major component to build economy.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 05 Oct 2016 05:24

JayS wrote:
So if we happen to buy F-16, We will service Paki F-16s..Yay... :lol: :lol:


There are other F-16 MROs that Pakistan will use for upgrades- TAI is the one that has been upgrading PAF F-16s. They wouldn't need to come to an Indian MRO even if the F-16 Block 70 were to be chosen.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 05 Oct 2016 05:46

Airframes still have a lot of life left in them

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 05 Oct 2016 05:49

Kartik wrote:
JayS wrote:
So if we happen to buy F-16, We will service Paki F-16s..Yay... :lol: :lol:


There are other F-16 MROs that Pakistan will use for upgrades- TAI is the one that has been upgrading PAF F-16s. They wouldn't need to come to an Indian MRO even if the F-16 Block 70 were to be chosen.

But the spares may well be sourced from India
GoI may not tell so...

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 05 Oct 2016 05:50

LM said F-16 -> F-35 path

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2016 06:05

We need a betting thread.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby brar_w » 05 Oct 2016 07:04

The F Teens aren't happening. Its a bad idea post the Rafale deal unless of course the French CANNOT offer a competitive MII offer for another 50-100 aircraft.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 05 Oct 2016 08:08

brar_w wrote:The F Teens aren't happening. Its a bad idea post the Rafale deal unless of course the French CANNOT offer a competitive MII offer for another 50-100 aircraft.

Here's my take: technologically - the Indian industrial mass such as exists is probably just ready to absorb F-teen level tech - which is IMO a necessary step in moving ahead.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 05 Oct 2016 11:37

Read the COAS' statements posted in the Raffy td. He makes his viewpoints v.clear.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ashthor » 05 Oct 2016 14:37

Looks like Rafale will be made in india with the chotta bhai's JV.
This looks like a case of looking london going tokyo.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rohiths » 05 Oct 2016 15:34

Per unit cost of Rafale is double of Airbus a320 (~$120MM) and the same as Airbus a330.(~$240MM). Indian Companies like Indigo have 120+ aircraft. Given the GDP increase in the next 10 years and the proportionate defence budget increase India can definitely afford 150 Rafales in 2025.
Having another American fighter or Gripen simply does not make sense as it will cost quite a bit and our balls will be Uncle's hands. I dont mind Chota Bhai giving bribe to whoever in MoD and closing the Rafale orders instead

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby brar_w » 05 Oct 2016 15:42

Comparing the cost of a fighter aircraft to a commercial passenger carrier isn't the best way to look at its value or affordability. There is a reason why most stick to comparing the value to competing, viable alternatives. I agree however that more Rafales would be and should be purchased but 150 more looks unlikely.

Even with the best negotiated rates the Rafale will not be a cheap aircraft. Perhaps another 50-75 aircraft could be purchased after the current are delivered. Affordability would have to come through the LCA (and later on, the AMCA) acquisition, otherwise the IAF will continue to be on the wrong side of the cost curve, paying a higher per-unit cost than even the USAF for its fighters (for example in 2017 the USAF ordered 40+ F-35's for < $5 Billion and even that is forcing the USAF hard to lobby for even higher production rates to lower cost further since its too high), but with a much smaller budget.
Last edited by brar_w on 05 Oct 2016 16:02, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2016 15:48

Kartik wrote:
JayS wrote:
So if we happen to buy F-16, We will service Paki F-16s..Yay... :lol: :lol:


There are other F-16 MROs that Pakistan will use for upgrades- TAI is the one that has been upgrading PAF F-16s. They wouldn't need to come to an Indian MRO even if the F-16 Block 70 were to be chosen.


I was just being sarcastic.

F-16 have been produced in 5 countries outside US already, which means as many countries already have decent MRO/suppliers' base, which we hope to build only after say 10 yrs. In this situation, Who will come to India for MRO and spares and why and for how many jets?? I find this thing as total hogwash. Make no mistake even for our own fleet we will not have a complete eco-system here. LM/Boeing can only transfer assembly line, not the entire supply chain. A lot of tier-1/2/3 companies manufacture components who are actually better at it that the OEM itself. Are we thinking all those suppliers will teach Indian companies how to manufacture those components?? Karan is right. No eco-system will be built.

shiv wrote:Here's my take: technologically - the Indian industrial mass such as exists is probably just ready to absorb F-teen level tech - which is IMO a necessary step in moving ahead.

The capability built up in MIC is not a question of aptitude but one of getting down to do it and learn from it. Sadly GOI is making sure that that chance appears only for foreign products. Every desi product is tried to be killed at all possible levels. Everywhere in the world defence industry is run like a socialist industry with extensive support from government. Here Indian govt not ready to fund even those companies who would be willing to put up half the money from their own pocket for setting up RnD centres or to commit decent orders upfront to those who are willing to set up manufacturing facilities to make proper business case when it comes to desi products.

Let alone manufacturing which is all about hands-on, there are thousands of white-collar Aerospace engineers in BLR today who have been doing screwdrivergiri in designing components for over 1.5 decades now but still know zilch when it comes to the product knowledge. Some of them are capable of designing aerospace components but sadly they will never get a chance. Because all we will bring in is screwdrivergiri year after year. In the ideal case scenario when we absorb F-1x level tech in may be next 25yrs, we will extend the same logic and do screwdrivergiri with F35.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lilo » 06 Oct 2016 05:47

IAF officer and Bengaluru scientist held in drug racket: All you need to know - India Today
J.V. Shivendra Srivastava
New Delhi, October 5, 2016

A day after the Narcotics Control Bureau (NCB) arrested a Bengaluru-based scientist and his wife and seized drugs worth Rs 45 crore from their possession, the police today arrested an Indian Air Force officer for alleged involvement in the racket.
The NCB arrested Rajshekar Reddy, a Wing Commander with the IAF, from Nanded, Maharashtra, just when he was trying to escape in a local bus.
Reddy's name had come up during the NCB's investigation on Tuesday after the officials seized 221 kg of the amphetamine drug from research scientist Venkata Rama Rao, when he was collecting a drug consignment in Hyderabad. Another 10 kg of the drug was seized from his house in Bengaluru.
OFFICER HAD ALMOST ESCAPED
The NCB traced Reddy to Maharashtra and immediately informed their counterparts in the state.
On Wednesday morning, the police in Nanded caught him while he was trying to flee. They seized nearly Rs 8 lakh and a mobile phone were seized from his possession.
MORE OFFICERS INVOLVED?
During questioning, it was found that Reddy was posted in New Delhi's Subroto Park. According to the police, based on the phone numbers and information shared by the officer, more officers of the IAF could be involved in the racket.
Reddy was supplying party drugs to several drug lords in New Delhi. The NCB is planning to act soon on this information.
Reddy, as per the investigating officers, was also supplying drugs to several clubs and hotels in the city, who in turn would supply drugs to their regular customers and those going to rave parties.
If sources are to be believed, names of several prominent people are likely to be revealed in this case.
MAKING HIGH-END DRUG VARIANTS
On Tuesday, the NCB besides arresting Rao and wife had also arrested Ravi Shankar Rao, from whom the scientist was collecting the consignment.
The scientist and his friend would illegally store amphetamine which is an important component to make high-end hallucinogenic, banned narcotic variants.
Amphetamine is used in very small quantities to treat narcolepsy and attention deficit disorder, but is banned in India.
(with inputs from Rohini Swamy)

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 06 Oct 2016 05:57

If the IAF is getting the twin engined Rafale, they will eventually agree on a single engined plane
I will think this is between the F-16 and the Gripen with the Gripen having a lead

This might be done to have a parallel track and alternative to the LCA. Somehow, per the top brass, the LCA is still not out of the woods it seems, otherwise why even entertain a single engined plane? Why not talk about upping the LCA production rate to 20 + ?
It seems to me like people are still waiting in the wings for the LCA to arrive, mature and prove itself

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vivek K » 06 Oct 2016 07:10

LCA can never prove itself! Read up on the Arjun.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 06 Oct 2016 07:26

If the IAF is getting the twin engined Rafale, they will eventually agree on a single engined plane
I will think this is between the F-16 and the Gripen with the Gripen having a lead


I thought the current offer on the F-teens is purely related to the Jet Engine JWG. No?

IF it is true, which I think it is, then the Gripen is out.

I would think the market for F-18 is nonexistent, considering even now it is small, especially as compared to the F-16.

F-16, I think has the best chance. An Indian F-16 would be a lot more affordable, so the *chances* are better to export it. Will India get orders? No idea, but changes are best among the three planes mentioned here. Needless to state, getting any of them just for the IAF should not be the goal.

LM/Boeing can only transfer assembly line, not the entire supply chain


Because the F-16 SC is global. I would expect some of it to be moved to India, but India will never be the sole producer of parts - even just for the Indian F-16s. F-16s yes, not parts.

What India will get is the SC process/software/what_ever_you_want_to_call_it. I do not know if LM will retain any IP or allow India to use it elsewhere, but if India negotiates (which I hope they do) for use elsewhere, that itself is highly valued.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 06 Oct 2016 08:41

90% of the parts by value would be the avionics, radar, engine, hydraulics, EW sensors, special alloy parts, weapons....spread across 10s of tier1 suppliers like northrop grumann, moog, GE aero engines, hispano suiza, lockheed, boeing, ATK et al....the same tier1 who are tied into the JSF / KC 767 / UCAV ecosystem now ... i dont see any of them doing anything in india beyond setting up a local depot to do some inventory storage, testing and training for HAL to work with locally.....and over invoicing that as offset values ... same as foxconn setting up a shop means a few suppliers setup offices near the mothership. no IP, no design data, no real local engineering development, manufacturing and test will surely be on existing imported machines.

so hate to say it, but as usual Tejas/Dhruv/AMCA/Medium heli is the only munna on this gig which can really develop our own ecosystem. Just take the Mi17 or UH60 - decades old but still a workhorse and a blockbuster product in sales. or the F-solah itself... the basic design dates back to the mid 70s...the F-15A design is from late 60s ... and it still struts around unchallenged in the skies with hardly any structural changes barring CFT and changed air intake(for bigmouth F16).

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby rohiths » 06 Oct 2016 08:45

If India does end up buying F-16 or Gripen, it simply means that we do not take ourselves seriously as a nation and we do not deserve to be the world power that we aspire to. It also means that the country is run by vested interests and rent seekers. No serious world power would buy a 1970s jet when it has a much better and cheaper home grown fighter.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 06 Oct 2016 08:54

JayS wrote: there are thousands of white-collar Aerospace engineers in BLR today

:D That is a bit of an exaggeration. India does not train that many and a few who do go off and do non aerospace stuff. I wish we had thousands with jobs though - that would be an indicator of a thriving aerospace industry.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 06 Oct 2016 09:23

Data point.

US Air Force: Tech Transfer Issues Key to F-16 Production Line Move to India

September 8, 2016

The issue of technology transfer is likely to be the sticking point on whether the US government sanctions the potential move of Lockheed Martin’s F-16 production line to India, the US Air Force’s top civilian said Wednesday.

Fresh off an August trip to the Asia-Pacific region with stops at India, Singapore, Indonesia and the Philippines, US Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James told reporters she discussed the possible sales of F-16s and Navy F/A-18s with Indian defense officials to help promote the US defense industry and further military cooperation between the two nations. Both Lockheed and Boeing, which produces the F/A-18, have proposed moving production to India in the hopes of attracting new sales of two fighter jets whose days are numbered.

James said her discussions with Indian Secretary of Defense Production Ashok Kumar Gupta, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha and Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa did not go into the details of the industry proposals. However, the talks did touch on technology transfer issues, something that she said was seen as crucial for finalizing a possible deal.

“Obviously technology transfer is something that India is really, really hoping for [and] looking for,” she said. “So how much we're able to work through will probably be a key determinant.

“And also I think a key determinant in what India ultimately ends up doing will relate to the Make in India part — how many jobs, what sorts of technologies might transfer,” she said, referring to Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s effort to expand the country’s manufacturing sector.

Boeing and Lockheed have made buying fighter jets a condition of any possible deal to move production to India. The country is also considering other fighter jets, such as Saab’s Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon. Notably, James said Indian officials did not express interest in the US Air Force’s newest fighter, the F-35, which has amassed 10 international customers so far.

She added that she did not expect India to come to a decision for at least a year.

Given the age of the aircraft and the focus on selling the F-35, it makes sense that Lockheed would be willing to move its production line in exchange for one last big sale, said Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with the Teal Group. However, the Indian government has been continuously indecisive, making a deal unlikely, he said.

“On the US side, it could be a tech transfer issue” that keeps a deal from happening, “but I doubt it,” he said. “I think in the US, they’ve realized that this stuff is not exactly F-22 territory. The bigger issue is just Indian contracting uncertainty.”

Outsourcing elements of production, or even creating a separate line, is not a novel move, he said. In the past Lockheed has established such agreements with F-16 customers such as Turkey, South Korea and, most ambitiously, with Japan’s F-2 — an F-16 derivative that split manufacturing between Lockheed and Mitsubishi.

Although current F-16 deliveries end in 2017, the company believes it will be able to net further foreign sales to sustain the production line until 2021, Randy Howard, Lockheed’s director of F-16 business development, said in an emailed response.

Asked whether moving the production line would become prohibitively expensive after that point, Howard said Lockheed was confident it would be able to set up a line in India when given the go-ahead, although the timeline would depend “on a number of factors.”

Negotiations with the US and Indian governments are ongoing, but if a deal is reached, Lockheed may also be willing to expand Indian companies’ participation in the program at a supplier level, he said.

“Under our current proposal, Lockheed Martin is offering India the exclusive opportunity to produce, operate and export F-16 Block 70 aircraft,” he said. “We also foresee significant Indian participation in the F-16 supply chain based on Indian industry’s capacity to offer best-value F-16 supply chain options.”


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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby malushahi » 06 Oct 2016 09:40

Singha wrote:so hate to say it, but as usual Tejas/Dhruv/AMCA/Medium heli is the only munna on this gig which can really develop our own ecosystem. Just take the Mi17 or UH60 - decades old but still a workhorse and a blockbuster product in sales. or the F-solah itself... the basic design dates back to the mid 70s...the F-15A design is from late 60s ... and it still struts around unchallenged in the skies with hardly any structural changes barring CFT and changed air intake(for bigmouth F16).


+1

dovetails into why the current narrative keeps running in a loop about how only teens or gripen can bring home sc/ecosystem capacity building gyaan. why has hal not been busting its hind-region establishing tejas's ecosystem with all it has got. i am one of those who are at a loss in understanding tejas's production schedule, all the ra-ra about second line approval pending with mod apart. the only obvious reason seems to be that every puny fastener is still being built in-house. we all know that hal is perfectly capable of going it alone when it comes to defending its interests. htt40 anyone?? why not tejas? granted it is a larger canvas, but why not?


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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 06 Oct 2016 12:00

Key points:

Jag upgade essential becos the MIG-27s are being retired,around 100+ of them.We will lack a GA/cs aircraft.Upgraded M2Ks and MIG-29s will perform their multi-role tasks,esp strike using stand-off munitions.

With a few hundreds of MIG-21s on the verge of retirement too,and LCAs arriving at snail's pace,the second line is essential.One would prefer the Gripen,the newest of the lot.The two "teens" are long overdue for replacement in the fleets of US allies,most of whom are waiting for the F-35 to finally mature and enter full-scale series production.The Gripen might actually help with LCA Mk-1A/2 whatever,if commonality is there in components,radar,weaponry,etc.

FGFA absolutely required from post 2020 to face the Chinese challenge of its own stealth birds.The US has the luxury of both F-22 and F-35.We will have to do with just one for the moment and since the F-35 is dedicated to strike and close support (replacing the A-10!) we need the FGFA for air dominance while the upgraded MKIs with BMos,Rafales,etc. do the biz.

A future fleet of 200-250 FGFAs,270+ MKI-UGs,80+ Rafales,120+ MIG-29UGs/M2KUGs,120+ LCAs (with a final figure of at least 200),120+ second light fighter,will give us the holy grail of 45 sqds around 2030.We can even reach that by 2025 with some of the legacy aircraft still flying until then like Bisons,Jags,etc.All-in-all, a robust plan for achieving it,PROVIDED that Indian pvt. industry is roped in to make up the shortfalls of HAL.HAL can concentrate upon the big tkt more complex heavy aircraft like FGFAs,MKIs,etc,mostly Ru origin birds ,while pvt. industry handles mostly western wares.

However,in the interests of Indian industry,one cannot fathom why another line for the LCA-Tejas cannot be set up by pvt. industry just as the R co. is going to help Dassault with Rafale support,etc! This could negate the need for a second line ,or at least cut down the numbers of the second line of light fighter.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 06 Oct 2016 12:52

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote: there are thousands of white-collar Aerospace engineers in BLR today

:D That is a bit of an exaggeration. India does not train that many and a few who do go off and do non aerospace stuff. I wish we had thousands with jobs though - that would be an indicator of a thriving aerospace industry.


Shiv, I meant by engineers already working in Aerospace sector. If we take just a handful of big companies (not counting govt labs) like GE, Airbus, UTC, Boeing, Quest, GKN, Atkins, Honeywell, InfoTech, HCL. TCS etc, we will find at least 5000 Aerospace engineers among them. You don't need Aerospace degree only to be Aero professional. A mechanical guy can easily work in Aero industry as bulk of the work here is of Structural engineering which is basically Mechanical Engineering. And indeed a lot of Aero-structures engineering professions in BLR are actually Mechanical Engineers by degree. Similarly a computer science/IT/Electronics engineers can easily work in Avionics. You get the idea I hope.

You should see sometimes how many resumes come for a single opening. :)

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 06 Oct 2016 13:14

Lifting this quote from LCA thread
JayS wrote:^^ Not only ADA, even for DRDO no significant recruitments have happened in last 4-5years. Last time the SET was conducted was in 2009 IIRC. There was a news that DRDO lacks some 2000+ scientists about 2yrs ago. I had high hopes from current govt that they will resolve this HR issues. But alas, nothing concrete has been done in last 2years. in fact more problems have been created, it seems.

There are a lot of good people itching to do some quality work and (also out of nationalism) are willing to go to govt organisations. Sadly our system is incompetent to keep such talent. Same people who could do far better work in DRDO are doing PPTgiri in some body shopping offices next door.

AFAIK there was an exodus from all govt establishments in BLR to booming IT/Engg services companies during 2000, significant erosion of experienced talent happened. In those pre-6CPC days salaries of permanent employees itself were pittance. Now the situation is that for fresher to say 6-8yr experience, one can get better salaries in govt than in pvt aerospace companies. After that things diverge rapidly. So erosion is experienced man power is a given. But even for entry level positions the opportunities are few and far between.

Well, the least said the better about all this crap. But make no mistake this all hurt our programs very badly.


This tells you everything you need to know about 2nd assembly line. Nor Chota bhai nor anyone else can magic up a large pool of human resource. You'll get assembly from SKD kits at best.

OR, All they can do is poach from HAL or others, which will impact current projects.
Last edited by JTull on 06 Oct 2016 15:09, edited 1 time in total.

Singha
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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 06 Oct 2016 13:21

even the IAF has its own sw dev institute on wind tunnel road.

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Re: Indian Air Force News and Discussion - 21 Sept 2015

Postby vina » 06 Oct 2016 13:22

All they can do is poach from HAL or others, which will impact current projects

You couldnt be more wrong . All they are going to do is screwdrivergiri. What HAL did for 50 years, those guys are going to do with a new name outside in a new place. That is all.

For that, they are NOT going to poach any HAL guys. They will hire fresh young folks out of ITIs, and pay them entry level wages and put a few Gora overseers/foremen to run the show. Chotta Bhai or Mota Bhai and others are not going to do any R&D and definitely are not going to hire any folks to even design a screw. Foggedaboutit.

This is like saying when Altsom /Bombardier/GE/Hitachi set up loco and rolling stock plants here, they will go and poach from ICF Perambur, RCF Kapurthala, Chittaranjan LW or Diesel LW at Varanasi. No way. Those guys are old PSU /stuck in their groove overpaid , unionised and politicised . No one will touch them. They will hire fresh off the industrial training institutes and employ them and allows them the opportunity to start with a fresh slate and inculcate a different culture from the Govt/PSU kinds.


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