Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 09 Nov 2018 23:30

This is a big story for HAL/India. We had lost the knowhow of designing a real aircraft which stalls deterministically (right amount of warning buffet). The IJT team could never achieve this. Today, we have gone one step beyond and even done spin recovery. It needs a very good handle on Math and aerodynamics. It is a red letter day.

I hope and wish to see HTT-40 post clearances at AI-19. If we can see the IJT, it will be sone pe suhaga.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 10 Nov 2018 00:06

Did LCA had to do stall + spin test as well? or is it only for trainers aircrafts/ non-FBW crafts?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 10 Nov 2018 01:08

Yes, for HTT-40 its the biggest hurdle that has been cleared, towards going to production. There must be more tests involved, but nothing major should hamper declaring it as being ready for IOC. Also very interesting to see the note below


HAL claimed that HTT-40 exceeds the Preliminary Services Qualitative Requirements (PSQR) on most fronts and offers a technologically advanced product than its competitor.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 10 Nov 2018 01:31

nam wrote:Did LCA had to do stall + spin test as well? or is it only for trainers aircrafts/ non-FBW crafts?

It is not about FBW. FBW pilots can get into stalls. Most commercial planes you fly in are FBW and can be stalled by the pilots. However, the FBW of most unstable fighters like LCA don't let the aircraft get into that regime. The rate at which corrections have to be given are beyond what is possible with modern sensors, computers and control surfaces.

So, a pilot cannot stall an LCA willingly or unwillingly. One of the things I wanted to share with you guys is that the CLAW is now updated to where the automatic recovery system can take the plane from 100 knots, correct it and give it back to the pilot.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 10 Nov 2018 05:24

Which gets me to the next question. Why not apply control law software in aircraft like IJT to prevent stall?

Might be effort & cost, but better than getting the project stuck in limbo.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 10 Nov 2018 05:48

Because trainees need to be taught how to understand the onset of stall, spin and how to recover from it. Not every plane in IAF inventory is as advanced as the LCA :wink: and not every trainee will become a fighter pilot.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 10 Nov 2018 10:18

Awesome news on HTT-40 trainer. Please click link below for a great shot of the bird...

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 39424?s=21

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakarat » 10 Nov 2018 12:37

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/1060862440039018496

This bird looks really good from this angle

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 02:53

^^^ Once FOC has been achieved and this plane is in full scale production, this will be an excellent export product.

Absolutely gorgeous bird. Kudos to the Indian design team that created her. Jai Hind!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cybaru » 11 Nov 2018 05:45

Unexpected and Amazing!! WOOOT WOOOOT!!!!

Go Go GO team HTT!! Fly more, harder, faster!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 11 Nov 2018 07:47

Videos ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Pratyush » 11 Nov 2018 17:53

Rakesh wrote:^^^ Once FOC has been achieved and this plane is in full scale production, this will be an excellent export product.

Absolutely gorgeous bird. Kudos to the Indian design team that created her. Jai Hind!


What is the expected numbers of planes to be produced?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:46

Pratyush wrote:
Rakesh wrote:^^^ Once FOC has been achieved and this plane is in full scale production, this will be an excellent export product.

Absolutely gorgeous bird. Kudos to the Indian design team that created her. Jai Hind!

What is the expected numbers of planes to be produced?

106 birds are on order, as per Wiki.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 11 Nov 2018 19:46

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 20 Nov 2018 17:50



Meet India's First Ever Women Fighter Pilots.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 20 Nov 2018 17:51



Commissioning as Women Flying Officers of IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 20 Nov 2018 17:52



Women Fighter Pilots - Importance of Team Spirit Among Fighter Pilots

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 20 Nov 2018 17:53



Women Fighter - Flying Advanced Fighter Jets.
Last edited by Vips on 20 Nov 2018 17:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 20 Nov 2018 17:54



Women Fighter Pilots - First Solo Flight in Fighter Aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 21 Nov 2018 00:52

Indian Air Force moves ahead on private sector deal to manufacture transport aircraft

Despite a series of hurdles, including differences on a pricing benchmark, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is moving head on a major deal for manufacturing transport aircraft by the private sector. There has been a flurry of meetings in the past few months and the stage is being set to take a final call on buying the C 295 transport aircraft to be manufactured by a Tata-Airbus combine.

....

The deal has been in discussion s ince 2012 but gathered pace from March this year when commercial bids for the contract were opened. While the air force was initially taken aback by the offer price that is believed to have been double the projected cost of Rs 11,900 crore for 56 aircraft, sources said a draft contract is now being processed.

Since commercial bids were opened, bidders have been in discussions with the contract negotiating committee to resolve a number of issues from pricing to the indigenous content on the Indian made aircraft, offsets and performance based logistics. Given the of concerns that came up during negotiations and the fact that the contract was expanded from the original requirement of 56 aircraft to include a requirement of the coast guard for six a Multi Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMMA), a final call on signing the deal will need to be taken by the defence minister led Defence Acquisition Council (DAC). When contacted, Airbus refused to comment on the developments.

The contract is being processed under a single vendor scenario as the Tata-Airbus combine was the only bidder for the tender. As reported by ET, the ambitious project was in danger of being shelved in 2015 after concerns were raised on it being a noncompetitive process.

An independent committee under the ministry was set up to review the project which greenlighted continuing with negotiations despite it being a single vendor case.

For many, this would have been a problem if Tata was replaced by HAL. Afterall, the prices quoted by HAL for licensed production is higher only because its incompetent employees spend more time at the canteen.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 21 Nov 2018 01:00

So sitting on the contract has double the price of the 56+6 aircraft!!!
And is now single vendor situation. Bu no problem.

BTW does Tata-Airbus have a factory to make these planes or they are charging for the factory?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kakkaji » 21 Nov 2018 10:11

ramana wrote:BTW does Tata-Airbus have a factory to make these planes or they are charging for the factory?


IIRC, earlier the idea was that the IAF will lease space at one of its BRDs for this venture.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 21 Nov 2018 10:21

HAL production lines and machine shops probably are well behind on robots and automation. around 3pm when a shift change occurs , you should see the huge number of staff coming out onto airport road and staff buses.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 21 Nov 2018 18:02

Indranil wrote:For many, this would have been a problem if Tata was replaced by HAL. Afterall, the prices quoted by HAL for licensed production is higher only because its incompetent employees spend more time at the canteen.


If you're referring to why HAL couldn't agree to a deal for Rafale, Dassault was being asked to provide guarantee (accept financial liabilities) for the work done by HAL.
If it was about the LCA price escalation, then HAL already had been paid extra Rs 1387 crores for the second line in Mar 2017 budget. It wouldn't now be trying to convert Su-30MKI line to LCA if the threat to award new line to private sector wasn't there. HAL first proposed Mk1A at similar prices as before and then it thought it could get away with price escalation lateron.

Either way, I welcome progress on C-295 deal.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby abhik » 21 Nov 2018 21:55

Indranil wrote:For many, this would have been a problem if Tata was replaced by HAL. Afterall, the prices quoted by HAL for licensed production is higher only because its incompetent employees spend more time at the canteen.

True that. Tatas have taken full advantage of the offsets gravely train, making/screwdrivering parts for c-130, Apache, f-16 etc. - but not sure what capabilities are actually gained from this. How do we know this venture will not eventually turn out to be another TCS (whose technological prowess is admired by all uber engineers on BRF :wink: )

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 21 Nov 2018 22:30

ramana wrote:So sitting on the contract has double the price of the 56+6 aircraft!!!
And is now single vendor situation. Bu no problem.

BTW does Tata-Airbus have a factory to make these planes or they are charging for the factory?


MP did the foundation work for the improved DPP which also included policy/procedures for Single Vendor situation. Single vendor is no more a taboo. Hence the progress here IMO.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 21 Nov 2018 22:36

JTull wrote:It wouldn't now be trying to convert Su-30MKI line to LCA if the threat to award new line to private sector wasn't there.

There is no such threat, only on BRF. Private companies had there chance in 2015-16 time frame, there were no takers. Now its not gonna happen. They are doing what any other company would have done to maintain skill levels with significantly large skilled labour about to go idle.

OT - dleleted

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 23 Nov 2018 14:46

Battle for IAF's transport aircraft contract: HAL hops on Avro replacement flight

The Avro story has got new wings. Indian Air Force wants to replace the ageing fleet of transport aircraft, and the C 295 transport aircraft, to be manufactured by a Tata-Airbus combine, is a top choice despite several issues on pricing terms.

But now, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HALNSE -0.82 %) is back in the game, proposing an improved Avro with fresh engines and avionics that could extend their service for almost two decades.

The proposal to replace the Avro Hawker Siddeley HS748 fleet — the planes have been made in India since 1960s — has been in the works for six years, and procurement of 56 replacement aircraft is in the final stages. However, HAL believes that the Avro fleet still has a lot of life left and can easily be upgraded to serve for longer.

Sources told ET that the first Avro which flew in 1961 is set to be upgraded with new engines, modern sensors and safety features as a demonstration aircraft for the air force.

The plane, nicknamed ‘Subroto’ after the first IAF chief, is officially designated as HAL’s corporate carrier and will be upgraded by the company at its own costs. “The aircraft is old but has flown only 30,000 of its total airframe life of a lakh kilometers.
Spare parts for the aircraft are no longer available, so the plan is to fit in a modern engine and new sensors that will give it extended life,” an official aware of the program told ET.

The plane is set to get a new ‘glass cockpit’ that will replace all analogue systems, and technical experts say similar upgrade is possible for the air force fleet of 56 aircraft that have had an exceptional safety record.

As reported by ET, the purchase contract with Tata-Airbus was expanded from the original requirement of 56 aircraft to include a requirement of the coast guard for six a Multi Mission Maritime Aircraft (MMMA) and a final call on the deal will be taken by the defence minister led Defence Acquisition Council (DAC).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 23 Nov 2018 15:58

The best way forward would be to upgrade and transfer the Avro’s to BSF for use with the transportation and supply of all CAPF requirements, as IAF gets new C295.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JTull » 23 Nov 2018 18:47

Shiv Aroor has caught on this HAL/Avro story

The Indian Air Force declined official comment on the program in general and the HAL pitch in particular, but a senior officer told Livefist, “The Avro is good aircraft, but it is not tactically flexible, and has been in service more to deliver men rather than materials. It has seen limited deployment as a purely tactical platform owing to the absence of a rear ramp and the sort of pressurisation necessary for missions. Extending its life may be a cost-effective measure, but it makes limited sense from a tactical logistics point of view.


Besides rear-ramp, pressurised cabin, I think, the flexibility offered by extended efficiency/range (winglets), AEW variant, Tanker rig, self-protection suit (from Elbit) makes this is a very versatile option. By owning the biggest fleet, by far, we'll be able to ensure future direction. Once desi production line is up and running, a European line won't be able to compete and any export orders will benefit desi eco-system. First flight was in 1998, so this is a quite contemporary, suited to modern day missions.

With NAL Saras, LCA, HTT-40, and C295 lines, we're looking at, potentially, an eco-system of small/medium sized suppliers forming. Just need some engines now!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 23 Nov 2018 19:03

+295 -748 brother.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rishi_Tri » 23 Nov 2018 19:36

Huh.. This is new low for Indian Import Machine. C295 is an evolution of Indonesian CN235. So now we are in a way importing from South East Asia. Incidentally this appeared.

https://www.janes.com/article/84789/ind ... ce-exports

"Setyadi said PTDI secured exports worth USD161 million through sales of the CN235 and NC212 transport aircraft the company builds under licence from Airbus, and that PT PAL's exports were valued at USD86.9 million for the sale of two Strategic Sealift Vessels to the Philippines. Recent customers of the CN235 are thought to include Senegal, while Vietnam and Thailand have reportedly ordered the NC212 aircraft."

HAL should have been allowed to develop MTA and then MTA used for Myriad of roles besides being replacement for Avros.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 23 Nov 2018 21:25

If HAL wants to upgrade the engine and Avro, let them go ahead. If it is economical as HAL says, then we will upgrade the Avro and get C295 from Tatas.

Why should it be one or the other? If it is to pressurize Airbus to reduce price, well and good. If HAl wants to prevent a competition, then IAF should flatly refuse the offer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby jaysimha » 28 Nov 2018 13:30

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vips » 25 Dec 2018 20:15

Army recovers snow-stuck helicopter from Siachen Glacier, sets new record.

The Indian Army has created a world record of sorts as its pilots and technicians successfully recovered a helicopter which was stuck in snow at an altitude of 18,000 feet at Siachen Glacier in Jammu and Kashmir.

The helicopter was brought back safely to the Siachen base camp with the help of infantry troops deployed there.

According to sources in the Army, an ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) Dhruv, on an air maintenance sortie at the 74-km-long Siachen Glacier, developed a snag and had to be landed around a post called Khanda in January this year.

The pilots managed to land safely on soft snow but could not reach the helipad there, the sources said. Though the chopper landed safely, the overnight snow resulted in its falling sideways. Attempts were made to recover it but there was no success till July, they said.

The attempts were successful in July when the technicians and pilots of the Army ALH squadron 203 in Leh managed to put new parts on the chopper and bring it back safely to the Siachen Glacier base camp.

“I know the pilots and technicians who were involved in this operation. Knowing these people as I have headed this Army Aviation Corps for a couple of years, all I can say is that nothing is impossible for these men from Indian Army,” former Army Aviation chief Lt Gen P K Bharali (retd) told ANI on Tuesday.

The chopper was stuck at 18,000 feet and recovering it from there is a world record of sorts because India is one of the very few countries in the world who operate choppers at such high altitudes.

The Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are French-origin machines in the Indian Army, fly at around 23,000 feet.

The French military also doesn’t use them for such extreme operations where the margin of error is very thin.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rishi_Tri » 25 Dec 2018 23:02

Vips wrote:Army recovers snow-stuck helicopter from Siachen Glacier, sets new record.

The Indian Army has created a world record of sorts as its pilots and technicians successfully recovered a helicopter which was stuck in snow at an altitude of 18,000 feet at Siachen Glacier in Jammu and Kashmir.

The helicopter was brought back safely to the Siachen base camp with the help of infantry troops deployed there.

According to sources in the Army, an ALH (Advanced Light Helicopter) Dhruv, on an air maintenance sortie at the 74-km-long Siachen Glacier, developed a snag and had to be landed around a post called Khanda in January this year.

The pilots managed to land safely on soft snow but could not reach the helipad there, the sources said. Though the chopper landed safely, the overnight snow resulted in its falling sideways. Attempts were made to recover it but there was no success till July, they said.

The attempts were successful in July when the technicians and pilots of the Army ALH squadron 203 in Leh managed to put new parts on the chopper and bring it back safely to the Siachen Glacier base camp.

“I know the pilots and technicians who were involved in this operation. Knowing these people as I have headed this Army Aviation Corps for a couple of years, all I can say is that nothing is impossible for these men from Indian Army,” former Army Aviation chief Lt Gen P K Bharali (retd) told ANI on Tuesday.

The chopper was stuck at 18,000 feet and recovering it from there is a world record of sorts because India is one of the very few countries in the world who operate choppers at such high altitudes.

The Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are French-origin machines in the Indian Army, fly at around 23,000 feet.

The French military also doesn’t use them for such extreme operations where the margin of error is very thin.


Wow!! Says so much about the machine and what a cold weather test. ALH gets buried in snow, lies there for six months, as summer melts the snow new parts are brought in, machine is brought back to life and promptly flies back to base after hibernation. Worthy of having a movie made and what better endorsement of Make In India.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 27 Dec 2018 16:32

Reading the signals: India has a new military strategy against China

https://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis ... DVbIM.html

Earlier this month, as a part of Exercise Bahubali, the Indian Air Force (IAF) used its C-17 Globemasters to carry, as this newspaper reported, tanks and armoured personnel carriers to Leh airport. The objective was to demonstrate capability to move men and equipment rapidly to border areas. Other than eight C-17’s, IAF also deployed four IL-76’s and four AN-32’s to showcase its strategic lift capability.

Meanwhile The Indian Express has reported that the IAF is planning to deploy, in the eastern sector, six units of Akash missile systems along with a squadron each of Apache and Chinook helicopters and Rafale fighter aircrafts once they are inducted. An additional squadron of Sukhoi Su-30MKI may also be deployed in the eastern sector. Besides, India is speeding up its infrastructure projects in the border regions close to China.

What is prompting this flurry of activity?


A recent paper titled “From Denial to Punishment: The Security Dilemma and Changes in India’s Military Strategy Towards China” in Asian Security by Anit Mukherjee and Yogesh Joshi may provide the answer. Before 2005, the duo argues, the power asymmetry between India and China was manageable. The terrain near the border on the Chinese side was a major barrier to offensive operations. However, now China has not just massively improved the infrastructure in the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), but has also undertaken an impressive military modernisation programme and adopted a more aggressive posture on the India border. Especially after Doklam, as Colonel (retired) Vinayak Bhatt has pointed out, TAR has seen a sharp jump in Chinese air force activity and construction of new airstrips and heliports.


These developments have forced the Indian security establishment, conclude Mukherjee and Joshi, to shed its earlier ‘defensive’ military posture of ‘deterrence by denial’ to a more ‘offensive’ posture of ‘deterrence by punishment’. According to the new strategy, India will not just confine itself to denying Chinese forces territorial gains but will actively impose costs on the adversary and may even open additional fronts. The earlier defensive posture is no longer sustainable with China possessing the capability to launch an assault without any warning leading to depletion of Indian resources in quick time.

Su-30MKI is a long range fighter aircraft that provides much deeper penetration capabilities compared to Mig-21 which provided interception ability. While C-17s, C-130 J’s and Chinooks will provide strategic lift capabilities, Su-30 MKI’s, Rafales and Apaches will provide the offensive firepower.

Mukherjee and Joshi also suggest that India is moulting its Pakistan-centric focus for a China-centric one. The shift actually is in line with other developments beyond the conventional realm. Most incremental additions in the nuclear domain including the induction of longer range ballistic missiles and nuclear propelled, ballistic missile-armed submarines (SSBNs) are being made with China, not Pakistan, in mind. The range of Agni series, extending till 6000 kilometres, is a clear giveaway.


In fact, India has been criticised for pursuing ‘credibility’ of nuclear deterrence at the cost of ‘minimality’ while tenuously hewing to the concept of ‘credible minimum deterrence’. But as Vipin Narang of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology had elaborated in a 2013 paper titled “Five Myths about India’s Nuclear Posture” in The Washington Quarterly, any ‘credible’ deterrence against China will easily surpass the ‘minimum’ for Pakistan. Narang added: “India’s security managers had to choose whom they envisioned their primary deterrent adversary to be, and against whom they wanted to build and maintain a credible minimum deterrent. All the observable indicators, such as the range and numbers of their strategic missile programs, suggest unsurprisingly that they chose China.”

It is true that the range of the K-15 missile that Arihant is armed with is merely 750 kilometres. However, Arihant should just be seen as a demonstrator of triad capability. India’s three planned submarine-launched ballistic missiles (K-4, K-5 and K-6) will have a range upwards of 3000 kilometres.

The growing conventional asymmetry vis-à-vis China is not just prompting a rethink over conventional military strategy but also nuclear strategy. As Joshi along with Harsh Pant has argued in a recent book ‘India’s Nuclear Policy’, the debate over India’s no-first use (NFU) of nuclear weapons is partly stemming from a growing gap on the conventional front.


It is too early, however, to press the panic button and discard the NFU pledge. A review of conventional military doctrines, on the other hand, is definitely welcome. A shift from Pakistan-centric approach was also long overdue. The review process should keep in mind that internal balancing of China alone will not achieve much because: a) China is way ahead of India already, and b) India is a developing country with multiple competing demands on scarce capital, leaving little for a focused military build-up. Partnerships, especially with the US, will be key to not just providing external balancing as a complementary approach but also helping strengthen India’s capabilities and boost its defence manufacturing potentia

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 27 Dec 2018 17:27

In fact, India has been criticised for pursuing ‘credibility’ of nuclear deterrence at the cost of ‘minimality’ while tenuously hewing to the concept of ‘credible minimum deterrence’.


Ah.. so the worry is India may have "credible" nuke, should focus on "minimum". Typical US jokers, providing gyaan.

Ofcourse never forget to add, India should take US alliance to deal with China.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 27 Dec 2018 17:54

nam wrote:
In fact, India has been criticised for pursuing ‘credibility’ of nuclear deterrence at the cost of ‘minimality’ while tenuously hewing to the concept of ‘credible minimum deterrence’.


Ah.. so the worry is India may have "credible" nuke, should focus on "minimum". Typical US jokers, providing gyaan.

Ofcourse never forget to add, India should take US alliance to deal with China.


Just sit back and enjoy at their lack of understanding. They think Arihant went out with K15. :P. We should simply ignore them and keep building our arsenal to whichever level we feel we are comfortable with. The so called scholars love to live in their la la land. They get shocked when they realize things on ground where different once in a while. Then they get adjusted to new "reality" and the cycle repeats. :wink:


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