Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Paul » 01 Jan 2019 15:21

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LCA #Tejas Mk1 Clears FOC on last working day of 2018.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Shrinivasan » 02 Jan 2019 01:12

Umreeka’s perception of Desi capabilities changed first with Shakti series of tests and was reinforced by the myriad exercises we had with them... that has been a real eye-opener for the west.. no amount of Tom-tomming would have brought us here.. next phase would be to showcase our R&D and manufacturing capabilities

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 02 Jan 2019 06:35

Get both.C-295 new-gen birds and upgrade as many airworthy AVROs.The IAF's logistic capability increases proportionate to the threat from the Sino- Pak axis.
" All hands to the pump", is an old saying.In a crisis even civil birds are utilised for troop movements. Old crocks still have their potential, but this should not be a devious move to scuttle the Tata- Airbus JV in the pvt. sector.DPSUs are scared sh*tless of being exposed by more competitive and productive pvt. sector majors.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 02 Jan 2019 22:25

Indian MiG-29UPG Features
The MiG-29UPG aircraft is now capable of mid-air refueling, compatible with the latest missiles in IAF’s inventory and can launch multi-dimensional attacks, Indian media reports quoted Flight Lieutenant Karan Kohli, a MiG-29 pilot at Adampur Air Force Station in Punjab province where the MiG-29 squadron is based.

The improved engines as part of the upgrade enable the MiG-29UPG to take off almost vertically on full power. This fighter jet can be scrambled within five minutes of spotting a hostile aircraft and reach a height from which it can challenge the ‘enemy’ plane. Other features of the upgraded plane are a multi-functional display, air-to-air refueling and ability to launch precision guided munitions.


A significant part of the Indian upgrade is the radar. The aircraft’s outdated N-019 Topaz air-intercept radar, has been replaced with the Zhuk-ME unit with multimode capabilities and mechanically scanned, slotted antenna.

A more potent radar upgrad, the Phazotron-NIIR's Zhuk-AME - also known as the FGA50 - AESA radar is expected in early 2019. The new radar will be installed into the Russian Aerospace Forces' new MiG-35 multirole combat aircraft and retrofitted as part of an upgrade programme for the MiG-29. An export version of the Zhuk-AME - known as Zhuk-AME - was unveiled at Airshow China in 2016. The Zhuk-AME can detect aerial targets that are around 160 km away and can simultaneously track up to 30 targets. The Zhuk-AME radar is expected to give the MiG-29 capabilities of a 4.5 generation fighter jet similar to the F-16 Block 70.

Enhanced weapons capability:

The highlights of the MiG-29UPG upgrade are:


Able to deploy R-77RVV-AE (AA-12 'Adder') air-to-air missile.
Ability to use the advance subsonic anti-ship missile Kh-35E (AS-20 Kayak).
Introduced the OLS-UEM IRST sensor with the laser, thermal-imaging and television capabilities
increased the range by 40% to 2,100 km on internal fuel
The upgrade improve maintenance which helped reduced maintenance cost by as much as 40%.
Using the Indian licence manufacture of the new RD-33 series 3 turbofan engines
Introduction of new weapon control system
Improved cockpit ergonomics with enhanced HOTAS design, two large and two smaller monochrome LCD
Introduction of a retractable inflight refuelling probe, similar to Malaysian MIG-29N and Russian MIG-29SMT
Weapons load was increased to 4,500 kg on six underwing and one ventral hard points similar to the MIG-35
Secure datalink system
Life increased to another 15 years of use
Introduction of a bigger centreline tank from 1500 litres to 1800 litres tank extending range toward 3,000km


http://www.defenseworld.net/feature/22/ ... CzmfFwzZPa

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 02 Jan 2019 22:37

Mig29 have weapon load of 4.5 ton?

And people say 3.8 ton on LCA is bad!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby titash » 03 Jan 2019 04:21

nam wrote:Mig29 have weapon load of 4.5 ton?

And people say 3.8 ton on LCA is bad!


You have to look at the design parameters and mission profiles.

The MiG-29 had 2 RD-33 engines (50 kN dry, 80 kN afterburning) for 15000 kg typical mission weight incl. 4000 kg stores & fuel. The Mirage 2000 had 1 M-53 (65 kN dry, 95 kN afterburning) for 14000 kg typical mission weight incl. 6000 kg stores & fuel.

The MiG-29 is a hot rod - a pure dogfighter with incredible reserve power when you need it. Even the late 80's non-upgraded versions will win in the WVR regime against today's eurocanards and TVC equipped fighters. That is what the pilots openly express. The Mirage 2000 and LCA do not have these abilities, but trade off for better electronics, lower per-hour flight costs, more reliable engines, and better "bomb truck" capabilities.

IIRC in the 80's, the 3 MiG-29 squadrons were purely tasked with air defence and the secondary attack mission was limited to 4 x 500 kg iron bombs. That has changed since the upgrade and I believe they have decent A2G capabilities now.

But the corvette is still a corvette and the camry is still a camry. No changing what's under the hood :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 03 Jan 2019 17:37

Yet we don't have any example of Mig29 overwhelming F16 or Mirages in a real war. Even the Siberian Mig29 were shot down ..

Pilots will not fight against a adversary's strength.

If Derby/Python or Mice IR/ER combo wins war against R77/R27/R60, then I want Mirage or LCA. For beautiful flying videos of Mig29, I will use youtube.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2019 10:00

You can’t be serious. Which F-16/Mirage pilot does not respect the MiG-29? Mig-29s are not as multirole as the former two. But in A2A, it is one of the best fighters ever designed, built and flown.

Mig-29s provided air cover for the Mirages in Kargil against F-16s. If Mirages were better, Mirages would have escorted other Mirages.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Paul » 04 Jan 2019 10:22

Since MIG 29 and JF17 have similar engine, is it possible that some these capabilities (WVR etc) also be present in JF17???

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby titash » 04 Jan 2019 10:26

nam wrote:Yet we don't have any example of Mig29 overwhelming F16 or Mirages in a real war. Even the Siberian Mig29 were shot down ..

Pilots will not fight against a adversary's strength.

If Derby/Python or Mice IR/ER combo wins war against R77/R27/R60, then I want Mirage or LCA. For beautiful flying videos of Mig29, I will use youtube.


Actually that is only half the story.

If you are facing the USAF with big-ass radar deploying AWACS arrayed against you, and the best EW/Jamming suites that money can buy, you will never enter a WVR regime where the MiG-29s strengths lie. Sparrows and AMRAAMs will do the needful and you destruction will have been planned the moment you take off from the airfield.

When the odds are more equal-equal i.e. Kargil style, the much vaunted F-16s have been observed to decline an engagement.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby titash » 04 Jan 2019 10:37

Paul wrote:Since MIG 29 and JF17 have similar engine, is it possible that some these capabilities (WVR etc) also be present in JF17???


Here is a list of 6 very different aircraft that all deploy the same engine i.e. Pratt & Whitney JT8D / Volvo RM8

Boeing 727
Boeing 737-100/-200
McDonnell Douglas DC-9
McDonnell Douglas MD-80
Saab 37 Viggen (AJ 37 Viggen....mostly subsonic)
Saab 37 Viggen (JA 37 Viggen....mostly supersonic/interceptor config.)

The devil is all in the details. Air flow, afterburner, fuel fraction, aerodynamic design for maneuverability, etc.

The RD-33/93 series engine is rugged + high power but is a maintenance hog + fuel guzzler + trails smokes likes a steam engine. You can't win it all :-)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jan 2019 10:39

Paul wrote:Since MIG 29 and JF17 have similar engine, is it possible that some these capabilities (WVR etc) also be present in JF17???


Its one engine and not 2 engines and its Analog FBW has serious shortcomings, please see its flight demos where without ordinance it is not able to complete a vertical loop indicating shortcomings in its FBW and bleeding energy plus its horizontal loops take about 7 seconds more than the Mig 29 to conmplete. For F-16, LCA its about 19 secs for Mig 29 about 17 secs and for JF 17 its about 24 seconds.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 04 Jan 2019 10:49

Aditya_V wrote:
Paul wrote:Since MIG 29 and JF17 have similar engine, is it possible that some these capabilities (WVR etc) also be present in JF17???


Its one engine and not 2 engines and its Analog FBW has serious shortcomings, please see its flight demos where without ordinance it is not able to complete a vertical loop indicating shortcomings in its FBW and bleeding energy plus its horizontal loops take about 7 seconds more than the Mig 29 to conmplete. For F-16, LCA its about 19 secs for Mig 29 about 17 secs and for JF 17 its about 24 seconds.


I will defer to a fighter pilot but won't the loop parameters be dictated by entry speed, sustained "g" rates, etc. A slow speed loop will take different time and different "g" forces to complete against a high speed loop.

Even an HPT-32 and a Kiran did loops. I am sure the JF 17 can. If it can't, it is a major aerodynamic design flaw given that it is a fighter and will be required to enter crazy manoeuvres in combat.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 04 Jan 2019 11:02

A lot will depend on JF-17 aerodymanic quality not just engine a good engine wont make a bad design go ballistic , They are trying to over come some of its aerodynamic deficiency with radars and weapons and likely tactics will also play an important role , JF-17 is a simple design which is what it was intended to be to be built in number , cant even compare it to early model F-16 much less Tejas.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jan 2019 11:53

Deejay Please see the various videos of JF-17 displays, it always pulls out of a loop once it reaches the apex., all other aircraft in airshows complete the loop.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 04 Jan 2019 12:13

Ok. Saw, the video. I think it can do the loop given that it sustains flight on the back at the top of the loop without stalling. Also, check from 07:00 to 07:30 in the video - there probably is a complete loop there.

That said, I felt, it was not showing off low speed handling, high "g" manoeuvres, vertical profile and was focussed on horizontal profile. Even the rolls looked sluggish while there were no "roll -off tops", vertical eights etc. I would like to see a vertical Charlie and a high alpha low speed pass which were conspicuously missing. Maybe the cloud ceiling was low. Can't say. But it is handicapped in Aeerodynamics and thrust. I am left wondering if it is bleeding speed to fast and too much?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 04 Jan 2019 12:23

Come to think of it, the Chinese never hand a 4 gen, non-FBW design of their own? J7 is a Mig21 knock off.

JF17 is not build on an existing aircraft, so they did not have a firm design to fall back on.

Other aircraft that Chinese build J10 is FBW. Others are Flanker copies. J20 is FBW.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 04 Jan 2019 12:40

I actually like the JF17. The Chinese did a very pragmatic thing there. We went for the exotic. Result: we have a better aircraft, but it took us way more time. Many in the IAF wanted us to go the JF-17 route, i.e. take more incremental steps.

By the way, Paul sir, most humbly, your question is very naive. The answer is: no, the JF-17 is not as capable as a Mig29. Aerodynamics is much more involved than engine alone.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 04 Jan 2019 13:13

^ but the Chinese aren't using it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 04 Jan 2019 13:15

Paul wrote:Since MIG 29 and JF17 have similar engine, is it possible that some these capabilities (WVR etc) also be present in JF17???


In very simplistic terms, which engine doesn't matter for flight performance, only thrust value matters. Wing design is the most important factor. Mig-29 has one of the best wing design ever. The very fact that it was right at the top of the stack in terms of maneuverability with no FBW, no TVC and fully override-able envelop limiters speaks volumes about its aerodynamic design.


Aditya_V wrote:Deejay Please see the various videos of JF-17 displays, it always pulls out of a loop once it reaches the apex., all other aircraft in airshows complete the loop.



Aerodynamically speaking the flight near TDC is easier than the flight while entering the loop, as gravity assists while the plane is at TDC. The only reason that I can think of, due to which an aircraft might find it difficult to complete loop is too much bleeding of energy (basically KE is trades for PE) and insufficient power by engine to compensate for it so that it drops below minimum speed needed at TDC to finish the loop. Since the load factor at turning flight is far more than level flight, it should be able to still fly out of the loop with level flight.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya_V » 04 Jan 2019 14:19

nam wrote:Come to think of it, the Chinese never hand a 4 gen, non-FBW design of their own? J7 is a Mig21 knock off.

JF17 is not build on an existing aircraft, so they did not have a firm design to fall back on.

Other aircraft that Chinese build J10 is FBW. Others are Flanker copies. J20 is FBW.


Actually JF-17 is continuation of an American- Chinese project from the last days of the cold war where J-8 body is used and mated to American engine called Super-7. Only thing is the Russian Engine has replaced the American engine.

Another thing I heard the part Analog FBW of JF-17 does not allow more than 6g, 7g Turns

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 04 Jan 2019 14:31

Indranil wrote:I actually like the JF17. The Chinese did a very pragmatic thing there. We went for the exotic. Result: we have a better aircraft, but it took us way more time. Many in the IAF wanted us to go the JF-17 route, i.e. take more incremental steps.


I would say if we had created a upgraded version of Mig21 with RD33/93 engine, we may have saved 5 years, however it would have had a fate worst than Marut. IAF or HAL had no interest in LCA. Their interest was to induct Mirage 2k as a replacement for Mig21. When that did not happen it was MMRCA. IAF gets MMRCA and HAL get license production. Everyone is happy and ADA can take a hike.

It was only after the Rafale deal sank to 36 and Parikar making it clear on local solution, IAF & HAL saw the writing on the wall. Even then it required the MK1A excuse to get them to induct LCA.

"3 legged cheetah" would be the least of name calling that would have happened if we had done a Indian JF17, although I agree it is a very practical solution.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 04 Jan 2019 14:33

Aditya_V wrote:Another thing I heard the part Analog FBW of JF-17 does not allow more than 6g, 7g Turns


A genuine question, what is Analog FBW? How can FBW be Analog?

FBW is by default involves a computer. There is nothing Analog about it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby dinesh_kimar » 04 Jan 2019 15:27

^ saar, there is actually terminology like that, for FBW systems.

Analog FBW - final actuators are hydraulic/ electro mechanical. ( need to be good at control engineering/ feed back systems, etc)

Digital- servo / stepper motor actuators. (Good at coding ADA language, is as per my understanding).

Final control is by computer in both cases.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Jan 2019 17:28

concorde and other aircraft of that generation had analogue FBW systems
i.e. driven by analogue computers not digital ones

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby nam » 04 Jan 2019 17:50

The reference is towards the actuators.

Given the claims about JF17, you would never know what would Pak come up with.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Jan 2019 18:13

if you think about each control circuit, e.g. stick to elevator - it is a feedback control loop. the stick inputs are converted to electrical signals then processed for gain/damping/amplification, etc. and then translated into a hydraulic actuator movement. this does not need a digital computer to do it. in some respects the analogue circuit can function more effectively but is typically less easy to modify and change. therefore digital typically offers more options and perhaps reliability. digital also introduces new complications, e.g. clock/cycle speed which may lead to PIO's etc. its all a question of trade-offs

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Dileep » 04 Jan 2019 19:10

No. Analog FBW uses an Analog Computer to make decisions.

The actuators are predominantly hydraulic irrespective of the FBW type, though the new generation planes have electric actuators.

Analog computers are extremely difficult to design and "program" right. But once validated, offer remarkable reliability and repeatability.

I once reviewed an autopilot for possible "indigenization". This one is 100% analog using magnetic amplifiers. It was an overwhelming experience, like being in the presence of a grand old guru. Naturally, I did a quick downhill ski, declining to take up the project. People at the BRD are maintaining these devices by fixing solder connections and replacing failed components. The anarchy in the circuitry need to be seen to believe.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 05 Jan 2019 13:01

Dileep wrote:No. Analog FBW uses an Analog Computer to make decisions.

The actuators are predominantly hydraulic irrespective of the FBW type, though the new generation planes have electric actuators.

Analog computers are extremely difficult to design and "program" right. But once validated, offer remarkable reliability and repeatability.

I once reviewed an autopilot for possible "indigenization". This one is 100% analog using magnetic amplifiers. It was an overwhelming experience, like being in the presence of a grand old guru. Naturally, I did a quick downhill ski, declining to take up the project. People at the BRD are maintaining these devices by fixing solder connections and replacing failed components. The anarchy in the circuitry need to be seen to believe.


I had at home many of these magnetic amplifiers from crashed Russian origin IAF planes. Even in my days Magnetic amplifiers were history chapter of old school electronics engineering. That was in 1983.

Of course dad's IAF manuals in 1970s had chapters on magnetic amplifiers.

At NSS (Nav and Signals School ) in Begumpet - Hyderabad (my dad was Instructor there) young officers would write papers on beauty and power of analogue computers versus extream inefficiency, cost and slowness of digital computers.

Hey but I loved learning Inertial Navigation System computer that was Op Amp analog electronics based.

Irony was IAF's Air Marshal Khurana very much liked my Fault tolerant INS and flight control system that I made for my MTech major project at IIT Delhi in 1986 built around multiple 8086/8087(numeric co processor) multi-bus structure. All digital.
Last edited by Haridas on 05 Jan 2019 13:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Haridas » 05 Jan 2019 13:08

nam wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Another thing I heard the part Analog FBW of JF-17 does not allow more than 6g, 7g Turns


A genuine question, what is Analog FBW? How can FBW be Analog?

FBW is by default involves a computer. There is nothing Analog about it.

saar, Pardon my musing :lol:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2019 16:38

nam wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Another thing I heard the part Analog FBW of JF-17 does not allow more than 6g, 7g Turns


A genuine question, what is Analog FBW? How can FBW be Analog?

FBW is by default involves a computer. There is nothing Analog about it.


Same like we had those big Philips Analog Radio back in days that need license to operate and now small Digital ones

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 05 Jan 2019 17:01

Austin wrote:
nam wrote:
A genuine question, what is Analog FBW? How can FBW be Analog?

FBW is by default involves a computer. There is nothing Analog about it.


Same like we had those big Philips Analog Radio back in days that need license to operate and now small Digital ones


Sorry about OT, we required license for radio reception back in the day??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2019 17:11

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Austin wrote:
Same like we had those big Philips Analog Radio back in days that need license to operate and now small Digital ones


Sorry about OT, we required license for radio reception back in the day??


Yes Sort of

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Dileep » 05 Jan 2019 17:19

You millennials!!! :lol:
We inherited a lot of British legacy, and just kept them because those were for the advantage for those in power. Denying free and open communication to the masses was definitely a concern.

Use of radio receivers was one of those, and they were regulated by a license. You need to go to the big post office in town to buy stamps and stick them on the license book. The radio could be confiscated and you put in jail if you operate the radio without a license. They were de regulated in the seventies. First two band radios were deregulated and later all receivers.

The same security argument was used when telephones were deregulated. I am not talking about cell phones. The simply STD (Subscriber Trunk Dialing. The facility to directly dial a phone number in another town) was seriously opposed. Same thing happened with e-mail and later internet. (e-mail service came first, and one of the license requirements was that there should be facility for govt to inspect all messages. This was before all the privacy concerns and SJWs)

India was a totally different country before the 90s.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Bala Vignesh » 05 Jan 2019 17:28

Forgive this, bechara mango abdul!!

I was born just short of the metamorphosis of India. I have always taken AM ans FM radio, STD and the like for granted since they were present from my childhood. In fact I have some of my fondest memory waiting in queue at the STD booth to call back both sets of Grandparents.

Sorry about OT!!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Jan 2019 19:05

It was a shock to me when cycle registration and Radio registration were stopped !! The iontroduction of STD calling was something unusual and cellphones were something really very very new !!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2019 19:05

in the good days, there was a waiting list of months and months for the bajaj chetak scooter and maruti800. choice of colour was not the menu - you took whatever came in that lot. infact used bajaj chetaks sold for more than their cost after years of use due to shortages, rest of the pack like "Mac", lambretta, digvijay(my father had one) were not so great as the chetak.

then came the relatively better machined LML Vespa by lohia motors - the stylish people in my town shifted to that. was pure buttery tfta vs chetak.

M800 & Gypsy & Omni vs other options were the Amby Mk4 and Fiat (professors used it), contessa and the premier 118NE and the Jeep/Trekker. the marutis were way better than this precarious pack except the really jeepy use cases in rural areas. I used to start my fathers omni in the garage, and in neutral run the engine a little to listen to its smooth "aerospace grade" engine noise

but king of the hill, flying high, fast and supersonic was the redoubtable "Badal" (reliant robin)
the hull looked like that of a badly made motorboat. front wheel that of a autorickshaw-MKI :twisted:

Image

a abandoned hulk used to parked in a house on my walk home from the city bus stop from school. I used to stare at it and consider its engg aspects.
my other alternate route, 1 stop ahead had another abandoned hybrid - someone had cut a bullet bike in half and put a rickshaw type thing in back.

I guess these are the sparks that excite young minds about STEM :)


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 05 Jan 2019 23:29

IAF hasent paid and HAL will never be broke GOI will bail them out like they do for AI

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby abhik » 06 Jan 2019 00:33

What is the reason for non payment by MoD? Are they are squeezing HAL cash reserve because they don't have the money (remember reading sometime back that the allocated budget was not enough to cover already committed purchases let alone new contracts)?


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