What a badly worded question!Paul wrote:Has anyone noticed that the number of IAF crashes has drastically come down in the past few months. What is going on here?

What a badly worded question!Paul wrote:Has anyone noticed that the number of IAF crashes has drastically come down in the past few months. What is going on here?
+1 to both posts and thanks for bringing back memories. December 1970 - I was a schoolboy visiting my cousin at Hindon. I could watch the runway from the roof of his bachelor's qtrs. The roar of the MiG 21 would become louder and louder - almost unbearable and then "Whuump!" the afterburner comes on and the roar morphs into an unearthly moan as the MiG jumps forward. This goes on for a while and then silence for a bit - then suddenly four Hunters appear from nowhere - in formation. They peel off one by one over the runway like dancers leaving the stage - and then they come onto land one by one. That evening - first day first show - Mera Naam Joker had been released.vishal wrote:This story is OT but it involves a pair of MiG 21's. I must have been in class 4 or 5 at the time and my father was posted at IAF Station Chakeri in Kanpur. The runway was not too far from where we lived (or so it seemed to boys on bicycles). Around 3 or 4 of us rode up to the fence around the tarmac, parked our bicycles there and found a hole in the fence. For lack of much else to do and a complete ignorance of the consequences we started walking/running through the open ground on the side of the tarmac towards the runway. We managed to reach the edge of the runway when we heard sirens screaming in the distance. A minute or so later 2 Jeep's slammed to a standstill right next to us and AF Police jumped out from them. We were taken to a safe location at a distance from the runway & asked a few basic questions. They asked us our fathers' names and service numbers (every kid knows the service number regardless of how young he or she is!). So we asked what the fuss was about (kids can get away with being brazen most of the time). Turns out a pair of MiG21's were on a landing approach and the ATC had to wave them off because they saw a bunch of kids on the runway through their binoculars. The situation was particularly urgent because the MiG's didn't have too much fuel left. The AFP were very nice to us. They took us back to where we had dumped our bicycles and let us go. I still chuckle when I try to imagine what must have gone through the ATC observers head when he saw boys scrambling on the tarmac and the exchange that would have taken place between the pilots & the ATC.Kumar Vinod wrote:It was love at first Sight in Pathankot. I was Near the runway End and came through two mig 21 came at very low landing gear open and touched the Runway like a Race Car.. Chutes came from back from end and it slowed down. I know they are old but I feel very excited while seeing a MIG 21 Land at high Speed. No other Can steal the Charm of MIG 21https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0o8ZRSQ_b5pWjRxFGTwV2HXlN8VITStcQkW2n3kF-5m2fJOQN
Also, my dad taught my mother how to drive our Amby on a runway because there was nothing there for her to ram the car into. And yes, she had trouble telling the accelerator from the brake at the time which is why my dad decided to take her to the tarmac... in the interest of public safety.
Actually a series of CASs have been referring to a decreasing accident rate for some years. The only point I want to stress is that flying military aircraft is often done in risky situations so the accident rate will never be zero. However if it happens to be zero for many months we are happy. Absolute zero accident rate means an air force is not flying.Paul wrote:Doc, I knew you would respond to it. It was 11:30 pm at night when I posted this? Hope the message got thru. That is all to it.
Hope someone will look into it and confirm improved state of readiness is my fond hope.
.vishal wrote:This story is OT but it involves a pair of MiG 21's. I must have been in class 4 or 5 at the time and my father was posted at IAF Station Chakeri in Kanpur. The runway was not too far from where we lived (or so it seemed to boys on bicycles). Around 3 or 4 of us rode up to the fence around the tarmac, parked our bicycles there and found a hole in the fence. For lack of much else to do and a complete ignorance of the consequences we started walking/running through the open ground on the side of the tarmac towards the runway. We managed to reach the edge of the runway when we heard sirens screaming in the distance. A minute or so later 2 Jeep's slammed to a standstill right next to us and AF Police jumped out from them. We were taken to a safe location at a distance from the runway & asked a few basic questions. They asked us our fathers' names and service numbers (every kid knows the service number regardless of how young he or she is!). So we asked what the fuss was about (kids can get away with being brazen most of the time). Turns out a pair of MiG21's were on a landing approach and the ATC had to wave them off because they saw a bunch of kids on the runway through their binoculars. The situation was particularly urgent because the MiG's didn't have too much fuel left. The AFP were very nice to us. They took us back to where we had dumped our bicycles and let us go. I still chuckle when I try to imagine what must have gone through the ATC observers head when he saw boys scrambling on the tarmac and the exchange that would have taken place between the pilots & the ATC.Kumar Vinod wrote:It was love at first Sight in Pathankot. I was Near the runway End and came through two mig 21 came at very low landing gear open and touched the Runway like a Race Car.. Chutes came from back from end and it slowed down. I know they are old but I feel very excited while seeing a MIG 21 Land at high Speed. No other Can steal the Charm of MIG 21
Also, my dad taught my mother how to drive our Amby on a runway because there was nothing there for her to ram the car into. And yes, she had trouble telling the accelerator from the brake at the time which is why my dad decided to take her to the tarmac... in the interest of public safety.
No. Definitely not because that Piaggio regularly flies over my house and I used to run out but now I can recognize it by sound. It has a characteristic "can't miss it" foreplane/canard. Its engines have a much louder a and harsher note than the plane I saw. That one was Saras alright and I am only doubting myself because I make it a point to try and get as many identifying features as possible - in this case I had no time to observe the translucent disc of rotating props (difficult to spot) and I am "anxious" that it may have been some other jet powered plane that looks just like Saras.abhik wrote:I remember seeing something like the Piaggio P.180 Avanti (I too thought that it was a Saras, but the profile was too different) last week. Not sure if you guys saw the same thing.
Even its colour theme is not same as the one described by Shiv ji.abhik wrote:I remember seeing something like the Piaggio P.180 Avanti (I too thought that it was a Saras, but the profile was too different) last week. Not sure if you guys saw the same thing.
They have done this in the past (ie not going public) when flying is "resumed". At least they did that with IJT.Austin wrote:Saras wing should be a give away also the push prop is hard to miss as just behind the wing and these days rarely see these types , I just saw saras one at AI 05 flying high but had distinct sound , They could be some unoffical flight of Saras before they claim official first flight after the incident
......
During the 4th meeting of the India-US Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) Group held at the Pentagon on November 17, officials of the two countries discussed the way ahead for the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working, which included exchanging strategies for government and industry cooperation.
Co-chaired by Frank Kendall, Undersecretary of Defence for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics, and by A K Gupta, Indian Secretary (Defence Production), the meeting reviewed progress on the six DTTI Pathfinder efforts announced in January by Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Barack Obama.
These includes next Generation Cheel Mini Unmanned Aerial Vehicle; Roll-on/Roll-off Kits for C-130s; Mobile Electric Hybrid Power Sources (MEHPS), Next Generation Protective Ensemble (NGPE), Aircraft Carrier Technology Working Group and Jet Engine Technology Cooperation.
......
MiG-27 fulfills a Close air support role in IAF along with MiG-21M. I believe it is the only fighter in IAF with a 6 barrel gatling machine gun. The aircraft is armoured to take hits which will come air defence.Vivek K wrote:LCA is probably way better than 27s and at least as good as Jags. Why waste money on upgrading 27s and Jags.
The MiG 27s had the highest crash rate in the IAF, unfairly blamed on the MiG 21 by our ignoramus presstitutes and that cannon gave a lot of trouble initially at leastAditya G wrote:
MiG-27 fulfills a Close air support role in IAF along with MiG-21M. I believe it is the only fighter in IAF with a 6 barrel gatling machine gun. The aircraft is armoured to take hits which will come air defence.
Look again:srai wrote:^^^
I don't see it? Can you point me to written source that says MiG-27 is armored? What sort of armor? Is it only the cockpit armored?
The cockpit featured armor glass and steel armor panels alongside the cockpit, plus heavy aluminum belly panels to protect the engine.
Nishant Dumped Finally – when will we privatise?
By Lt. General P.C. Katoch
Former Director General of Information Systems, Indian Army
Nishant UAV
Photo Credit: DRDO
Yet another failed crash landing of DRDO’s Nishant UAV shows the dismal state of the governmental defence-industrial complex. To meet the Army’s needs for intelligence gathering over enemy territory, as also for reconnaissance, training, surveillance, target designation, artillery fire correction, damage assessment, ELINT and SIGINT, it was decided in September 1988 that the DRDO would undertake the indigenous development of its UAV. The GSQR was finalized by the Army in May 1990 and the Nishant UAV attempted its first test flight in 1995.
But 20 years later and having spent some Rs 90 crores on the project, periodic crash landings of Nishant have again brought into focus the gross lack of accountability of DRDO and its inability to meet military requirements with successive CAG reports highlighting endemic corruption in the organization. As per media reports, the two decade old Rs 90 crores Nishant UAV program has proved a “DUD”, with the Indian Army shelving the system and cancelling any further orders after three of the four systems supplied by the DRDO. The media further says that the DRDO had actually overspent Rs 5 crores in the vain hope of recovering the project – it actually means 20 years plus Rs 95 crores down the drain, leave aside keeping the Army deficient all these years of an indigenous UAV that was meant to be the eyes and ears of the Army, providing high definition images of battlefield, help designate targets, and provide electronic and signal intelligence information.
The 380 kg Nishant UAV is planned for endurance of four hours and thirty minutes, required rail-launching from a hydro-pneumatic launcher and is able to be recovered by a parachute system. The Mobile Hydro-Pneumatic Launcher (MHPL) system mounted on a Tatra truck weighs 14,000 kg and a life cycle of 1000 launches before requiring overhaul. DRDO boasted that Nishant is one of the few UAVs in the world in its weight-class capable of being catapult-launched and recovered by using parachute, thus eliminating the need for a runway as in the case of conventional take-off and landing with wheels. As always happens, with DRDO’s governmental clout, many a times imperfect equipment and systems gets dumped into the military on the excuse that so much money has already been spent. But the Army has had enough with Nishant UAV with the latest crash bringing all the four introduced into service to the same fate. Significantly, each of these drones had cost the Army Rs 22 crore. Introduced into service in 2011, the last of the four Nishants in service with the Army crashed near the Pokhran range in Rajasthan. According to Army sources the crash was because of a technical glitch. Just 15 days back, another Nishant had gone down, also for a technical reason. Earlier in April, two other Nishant drones had crash landed near the India-Pakistan border near Jaisalmer. For their part, the DRDO in its usual manner has blamed the user for poor handling of the system, a point categorically denied by the Army. The irony is that this game has been gone on for decades with no one held accountable in the DRDO. In recent months, the issue of DRDO spending Rs 5 crores of government funds for crafting a silver chariot for Rath Yatra even had come up in Parliament. Very significantly, a smaller drone named Nethra developed by IIT graduates has been in use with police, para-military forces and the National Disaster Relief Force. Perhaps a private company could have easily developed a better UAV for the Army in just 2-3 years, given the fact that many indigenous companies have been marketing drones and even camcopters. The irony here is that while this monolith of DRDO cannot produce a worthwhile drone in 20 years, Pakistan has already developed and deployed its own armed drone.
The government needs to seriously reflect at this dire state of development not only to pull up DRDO, but also to usher accountability and even stop its false propaganda in media of achievements that are quite imperfect. One example is the Akash AD system that DRDO has been bragging about. Commenced in 1980’s, it was supposed to replace the vintage Kvadrat system for providing AD cover during mechanized maneuvers. It failed during Army trials in early 2000 and so was dumped on the IAF because it worked in ‘static’ mode. Now three regiments worth of Akash are being inducted into the Army post massive media blitz that this is an “improved version”. One regiment has already having been raised but the stark reality is that the Army is forced to still use this “improved version” of Akash in ‘static’ role. DRDO has already been developing a wheeled version of Nishant, termed Panchi. Hope another schoolboy level imperfect DRDO invention doesn’t get dumped on the Army again just because DRDO spent money. How long are we going to permit DRDO to fool the nation?
The description you quoted is for MiG-23BN in that article. It's not clear as to what armor was retained in the MiG-27 from that. Maybe someone ex-IAF familiar with MiG-27 could shed some light on this?Aditya G wrote:Look again:srai wrote:^^^
I don't see it? Can you point me to written source that says MiG-27 is armored? What sort of armor? Is it only the cockpit armored?
http://www.airvectors.net/avmig23_2.html
The cockpit featured armor glass and steel armor panels alongside the cockpit, plus heavy aluminum belly panels to protect the engine.
Why is it so difficult for you to accept this fact?srai wrote:....The description you quoted is for MiG-23BN in that article. It's not clear as to what armor was retained in the MiG-27 from that. Maybe someone ex-IAF familiar with MiG-27 could shed some light on this?...
More pictoral evidence. #3 is the upgraded variant.The MiG-27 was finally deployed to Afghanistan in 1988, with a single air regiment stocked with 36 MiG-27Ms and 4 MiG-23UB two-seaters sent to Shinand Air Base, as something of a combat evaluation program. The MiG-27Ms were generally used in high-altitude bombing attacks up to the withdrawal of Soviet forces in early 1989. The conclusion of the tour was that the MiG-27 was reliable and its cockpit armor very much an asset,
maxratul wrote:this is brutal
http://www.sps-aviation.com/experts-spe ... -privatise
Nishant Dumped Finally – when will we privatise?
By Lt. General P.C. Katoch
Former Director General of Information Systems, Indian Army
Nishant UAV
Photo Credit: DRDO
Yet another failed crash landing of DRDO’s Nishant UAV shows the dismal state of the governmental defence-industrial complex. To meet the Army’s needs for intelligence gathering over enemy territory, as also for reconnaissance, training, surveillance, target designation, artillery fire correction, damage assessment, ELINT and SIGINT, it was decided in September 1988 that the DRDO would undertake the indigenous development of its UAV. The GSQR was finalized by the Army in May 1990 and the Nishant UAV attempted its first test flight in 1995.
But 20 years later and having spent some Rs 90 crores on the project, periodic crash landings of Nishant have again brought into focus the gross lack of accountability of DRDO and its inability to meet military requirements with successive CAG reports highlighting endemic corruption in the organization. As per media reports, the two decade old Rs 90 crores Nishant UAV program has proved a “DUD”, with the Indian Army shelving the system and cancelling any further orders after three of the four systems supplied by the DRDO. The media further says that the DRDO had actually overspent Rs 5 crores in the vain hope of recovering the project – it actually means 20 years plus Rs 95 crores down the drain, leave aside keeping the Army deficient all these years of an indigenous UAV that was meant to be the eyes and ears of the Army, providing high definition images of battlefield, help designate targets, and provide electronic and signal intelligence information.
The 380 kg Nishant UAV is planned for endurance of four hours and thirty minutes, required rail-launching from a hydro-pneumatic launcher and is able to be recovered by a parachute system. The Mobile Hydro-Pneumatic Launcher (MHPL) system mounted on a Tatra truck weighs 14,000 kg and a life cycle of 1000 launches before requiring overhaul. DRDO boasted that Nishant is one of the few UAVs in the world in its weight-class capable of being catapult-launched and recovered by using parachute, thus eliminating the need for a runway as in the case of conventional take-off and landing with wheels. As always happens, with DRDO’s governmental clout, many a times imperfect equipment and systems gets dumped into the military on the excuse that so much money has already been spent. But the Army has had enough with Nishant UAV with the latest crash bringing all the four introduced into service to the same fate. Significantly, each of these drones had cost the Army Rs 22 crore. Introduced into service in 2011, the last of the four Nishants in service with the Army crashed near the Pokhran range in Rajasthan. According to Army sources the crash was because of a technical glitch. Just 15 days back, another Nishant had gone down, also for a technical reason. Earlier in April, two other Nishant drones had crash landed near the India-Pakistan border near Jaisalmer. For their part, the DRDO in its usual manner has blamed the user for poor handling of the system, a point categorically denied by the Army. The irony is that this game has been gone on for decades with no one held accountable in the DRDO. In recent months, the issue of DRDO spending Rs 5 crores of government funds for crafting a silver chariot for Rath Yatra even had come up in Parliament. Very significantly, a smaller drone named Nethra developed by IIT graduates has been in use with police, para-military forces and the National Disaster Relief Force. Perhaps a private company could have easily developed a better UAV for the Army in just 2-3 years, given the fact that many indigenous companies have been marketing drones and even camcopters. The irony here is that while this monolith of DRDO cannot produce a worthwhile drone in 20 years, Pakistan has already developed and deployed its own armed drone.
The government needs to seriously reflect at this dire state of development not only to pull up DRDO, but also to usher accountability and even stop its false propaganda in media of achievements that are quite imperfect. One example is the Akash AD system that DRDO has been bragging about. Commenced in 1980’s, it was supposed to replace the vintage Kvadrat system for providing AD cover during mechanized maneuvers. It failed during Army trials in early 2000 and so was dumped on the IAF because it worked in ‘static’ mode. Now three regiments worth of Akash are being inducted into the Army post massive media blitz that this is an “improved version”. One regiment has already having been raised but the stark reality is that the Army is forced to still use this “improved version” of Akash in ‘static’ role. DRDO has already been developing a wheeled version of Nishant, termed Panchi. Hope another schoolboy level imperfect DRDO invention doesn’t get dumped on the Army again just because DRDO spent money. How long are we going to permit DRDO to fool the nation?
maxratul wrote:this is brutal
http://www.sps-aviation.com/experts-spe ... -privatise
Nishant Dumped Finally – when will we privatise?
By Lt. General P.C. Katoch
Former Director General of Information Systems, Indian Army
...
Lt Gen PC Katoch comes from SF gaining fame from leading commando unit in Operation Bluestar....
Well anyway, Gen Bhardwaj is in the centre of a sticky HR mess in the Army's most sensitive command. After commanding 14 Corps in Leh, he took over as Northern Commander on March 1 this year, but he's been commanding without his crucial Chief of Staff, Lt Gen Prakash Chand Katoch (see photo, right), an Uttam Yudh Seva Medal awardee for Kargil. Katoch has proceeded on 90 days leave because he refuses to serve under Gen Bhardwaj -- a junior officer, 172 places below Katoch in the ladder of Army seniority. Gen Katoch is certain to be accomodated at Army Headquarters in Delhi very shortly as Director General Information Services -- such is the fever-pitch of angst, while Lt Gen JS Lidder will fill Katoch's position. But here's the glitch -- even Lidder is senior to Bhardwaj, but his relations with the Army top brass are not quite as healthy as Katoch's. You see what I mean? The incidence of such situtations has increased over the last ten-odd years.
...