Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20517
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 19 Dec 2015 09:32

The vice like grip that babudom has over any acquisition is the major factor for shortage of spares,support,etc. Only after the final green signal is given is the firang OEM informed and they then start to process the order. So naturally eqpt. lies idle,angar queens,etc.It is only in recent times that the OEMs are starting JVs in India with pvt. players for support,etc.,to circumvent or cut short the acquisition time. As the decades have gone by,the babus have distanced the service chiefs from the PM/Govt. more and more.
It was reported last week that the 3 chiefs were to meet the PM and protest about the downgrading of their status,remuneration,OROP,etc,in comparison with the "desk soldiers".The latest Pay Commission recommendations allegedly drawn up by babudom,further devalue the armed forces they allege.

habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6850
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby habal » 19 Dec 2015 15:22

IAS lobby is slowly beginning to leech off the creative juices and enterprise of India. While it doesn't outwardly manifest itself during rumaway growth periods, it does become obvious at all other times. It is very important to replace this lobby wholesale with specialists and technocrats.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19157
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 19 Dec 2015 16:36

Services really need to sit down with MOD and SMEs from pvt/public sector and reevaluate their entire end to end spares and support management plans and funding required. UPA is gone, new GOI is there. No better time to do this. Once it becomes the new policy, other GOIs will have to do follow suit or at least attempt to play ball.

srai wrote:Lessons not learned ...

CAG slams Indian Air Force for sub-optimal utilisation of AWACS
NEW DELHI: The country's top auditor has slammed the Indian Air Force for sub-optimal utilisation of operational capabilities of AWACS (air borne warning and control system) aircraft purchased in 2004 for Rs 5,042 crore and has said shortage of aircrew may impact the operations of the planes during hostilities.

The Comptroller and Auditor General of India also slammed the low serviceability of the Sukhois, country's front-line combat aircraft.

Without identifying the AWACS aircraft acquired from Russia, the audit body said Defence Ministry concluded a contract (March 2004) for procurement of three 'AA' and its sub-systems at a cost of Rs 5,042 crore.

AWACS is capable of operating as an Airborne Command & Control Centre for conducting offensive and defensive air operations.

"There was sub-optimal utilisation of operational capabilities of 'AA' in terms of flying task achieved mainly due to un-serviceability of 'AA'. Besides, scope for increasing operational efficiency of 'AA' aircraft was restricted due to absence of training to aircrew on air to air refuelling (AAR) and non-acquisition of additional land for extension of runway length at AF Station 'S-3'," the CAG said in its report submitted to the Parliament.

It said there was delay in installation of Ground Exploitation Station (GES) at intended location ('S-1') due to lack of due diligence in planning of work services.

"There was shortage of aircrew which may impact the operations of the 'AA' aircraft during hostilities. No long-term arrangement existed for repair and maintenance of 'AA' which was being managed with interim maintenance services contract," it said.

The audit body said supply of defective Automatic Test Equipment for Communication System, the non-supply of 'I' level facility for Identification of Friend or Foe (IFF) system and short provisioning of stores/rotables had adversely affected the serviceability of 'AA'.

"Certain infrastructure facilities were not synchronised with the induction of 'AA' as there was delay in completion of work services for modified hangars, independent storage facility and separate training-cum-accommodation centre at AF Station 'S-3', which affected smooth functioning of 'AA'," the report said.

Talking about the Su-30 aircraft, which the CAG identified as 'C', it said shortfalls in performance of aircraft and airborne system as received were yet (August 2015) to be resolved.

"Setting up of service support centres was inordinately delayed for want of required systems/equipment. Serviceability of aircraft fleet was also low.

"Manpower for 'C' aircraft squadron was not sanctioned even after 19 years of its induction," CAG said.


A decade has gone by and we are still hearing low servicibility issues with yet another type in the force. There seems to be systematic failure in the lifecycle management of products after they are inducted.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20517
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 20 Dec 2015 18:20

Hindu today. The GOI should have as a major priority the dev. of aero-engines as said by many of us ad nauseum for a decade+.The entire range of aero-engines should be up for dev./co-dev with willing partners.Why can't Kaveri be completed with an intl. partnerhas run out of ideas if the GTRE ? I know one pvt Ind. co which developed a key cutting-edge component for it,has been languishing for want of orrders from the DRDO.The MD rues the day he signed on with the DRDO. Given the huge inventory of aircraft mil and civil,the market is for thousands of engines of all types rotary and fixed wing. There is such a huge opportunity for Ind. industry ,but it must receive govt, assistance.

A long way to go for HAL’s new aircraft engine’
‘A long way to go for HAL’s new aircraft engine’ - NATIONAL - The Hindu

An engineer checks India's indigenous 25kN thrust class, Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine (HTFE-25) after its inaugural run at the engine test run facility in Bangalore recently.— Photo: AFP

The latest milestone in aircraft engine development that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd unveiled, counted with its other helicopter engines project, may be two new tiny steps which, however, may be no match for the giant gap that exists for indigenous aero engines, experts in the field say.

The projects that the premier military aircraft maker has embarked on will be respectively for small jets and trainer planes; and light helicopter projects. Engine development technology being extremely complex as it is, India is still a far cry from propelling the bigger fighter planes with its own engine. It could be a new quest 25 years after the DRDO’s Kaveri engine for Indian light fighters failed to rev up.

HAL on December 14 trial-ran the HTFE-25 - the engine that can potentially power its basic trainer plane and perhaps business jets - in the presence of the Defence Minister. Around October this year, it initiated the design of the second one, HTSE-1200, meant for 3-tonne to 6.5-tonne helicopters.

They stand for Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine and Hindustan Turbo Shaft Engine.
[b]
The two projects are expected to reach fruition by around 2020-21
[/b] and would meet HAL’s upcoming projects - the HTT-40 trainer; the Light Combat Helicopter, the Light Utility Helicopter and the future ALHs (Advanced Light Helicopters), a senior official said. The ALH is now powered by the Shakti engine of HAL and its French partner Turbomeca.

[b] Calling the engine’s debut run a speedy achievement,[/b] Ashok Baweja, who was HAL's Chairman during 2004-09 is and now CEO of QuEST Global Defence, said, “Developing an engine is almost as challenging as making an aircraft fly. This is the beginning. The real challenge will be in extensively running [HTFE-25], quickly getting it qualified and certified, may be within two years. And once certified, it has immense [market] potential.”

Government officials have often said various agencies would need 4,000-6,000 helicopter engines by the end of this decade. . Considering the huge requirement, Mr. Baweja said the larger HTSE-1200 being pursued for light helicopters would also be a potent product; “We have never done this 1200-kW-class engine before.”

Comparing the HTFE-25 progress to conquering a hillock before a mountain, K. Tamilmani, DRDO's Director-General for Aeronautical R&D, said it was a desirable baby step as “we are nowhere in engines globally”.

An engine for the fifth generation concept, the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, for example, he said, could be at least a decade away and perhaps made in a partnership.

Indigenous engine technologies, Dr. Tamilmani remarked, are essential; India, in spite of its aircraft manufacturing maturity, cannot claim self-reliance in aeronautics without its own engine.

Future focus should be on aiming for multiple engines and pooling of diverse capabilities.

Mr. Baweja also said the old and now stalled DRDO effort, the Kaveri GTX-35VS engine, which did not make it as intended into the LCA fighter, should also be somehow completed..

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3417
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya G » 20 Dec 2015 23:09

No news about the KMGT gas turbine. That would have been a major achievement by itself.

I am curious as to why HAL is expending effort on jet engines - it is GTRE's remit.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4441
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 21 Dec 2015 03:20

^^^

How much collaboration is going on between HAL and GTRE? I'm assuming there would be a similar arrangement like on LCA program between ADA and HAL.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 21 Dec 2015 03:45

HAL has much more manufacturing experience than GTRE. They compliment each other well and they are not trespassing on one another. If you dig deeper, you might find GTRE folks cheering and aiding HAL in its HTFE-engine effort. It's a small community there. People who know each other personally.

I have had the privilege of talking to some of the GTRE folks. IF I were in their place, I would have quit by now. Everyhting they buy has to wait for few months at best and years at worst. Sometimes they don't come at all. And then every Tom, Dick and Harry who know diddly-squat about materials or aerodynamics write long blogs and reports on how GTRE failed the country. Actually, it is the other way round.

In the US too, a small group of people are asked to do the impossible, but they are given complete independence to get whatever they need. They have complete authority. In India, we tie the hands of our engineers, and then ask them to build state-of-the-art aero engines. Ridiculous!

Mukesh.Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1062
Joined: 06 Dec 2009 14:09

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 23 Dec 2015 16:28

X-Post LCA thread for those interested
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Hi guys, NPTEL is opening up an online course for people interested in aircraft flight. A 20 hr Introduction to Airplane Performance taught by Prof.A.K.Ghosh- IITK. Those interested in learning about basics of aircraft performance can register before Jan 25.

[youtube]HCpUnoawT3Q&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Code: Select all

TThis course is designed to provide an integrated introductory treatment of airplane performance with flavor of aircraft design and flight testing.


A more detailed course of 40 hrs is being taught by the same faculty- Stability and control of aircraft.


Code: Select all

This course is designed to understand stability and control aspects of an airplane. This course will also help in creating a background to design an airplane from stability and control aspects.

[youtube]ATNEbnKxl98&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4502
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 23 Dec 2015 16:56

srai wrote:^^^

How much collaboration is going on between HAL and GTRE? I'm assuming there would be a similar arrangement like on LCA program between ADA and HAL.


A large portion of parts (if not all among those built in India) for Kaveri have been built by Koraput div, I am told by someone who used to work there. There is quite a lot of collaboration among all the SDRE R&D folks in general. Engine development shouldn't be an exception to that.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 23 Dec 2015 22:23

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Hi guys, NPTEL is opening up an online course for people interested in aircraft flight. A 20 hr Introduction to Airplane Performance taught by Prof.A.K.Ghosh- IITK. Those interested in learning about basics of aircraft performance can register before Jan 25.

[youtube]HCpUnoawT3Q&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Code: Select all

TThis course is designed to provide an integrated introductory treatment of airplane performance with flavor of aircraft design and flight testing.


A more detailed course of 40 hrs is being taught by the same faculty- Stability and control of aircraft.


Code: Select all

This course is designed to understand stability and control aspects of an airplane. This course will also help in creating a background to design an airplane from stability and control aspects.

[youtube]ATNEbnKxl98&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

Doesn't get much better than this. Dr. A.K. Ghosh is one of the most famous aero-educators from India. Strongly recommend it.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gyan » 24 Dec 2015 09:42

There used to be some talk of HAL turboprop engine also. Any latest news?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 26 Dec 2015 23:18

Crosspost:

Seems like NCAD is being born again (as a HAL project), and hopefully as a turboprop.

HAL to seek foreign partners for small passenger plane
State-owned aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will float a tender by March inviting global aircraft makers to partner it in the design and development of a 50-70 seat passenger plane to serve small cities across India.

HAL board had approved the decision to invite international bids to co-develop the aircraft, a person familiar with the development said. The project is estimated to cost Rs 7,000 crore for three prototypes and certification.

“There will be a requirement for 200 such aircraft in India in the next five years, T Suvarna Raju, chairman and managing director of HAL, had told reporters earlier.

The National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) and HAL had jointly planned to set up a special purpose vehicle for a regional transport aircraft RTA-70 but this was later scrapped because of funding issues.

NAL had in 2007 settled on a design and selected a turboprop engine from Pratt & Whitney for the plane that did not take off from the drawing board. G Madhavan Nair, former chairman of the Indian Space Research Organisation, had headed a committee to identify local partners for the project. India has built trainers, planes and helicopters for the military, but its commercial aircraft programme is yet to find its feet.

Hansa, a two-seat passenger plane, has been a commercial flop, while Saras, a 14-seat passenger plane that was grounded after a crash killed three people on a test flight, were designed and built by NAl. In 2000, HAL had planned a joint venture with Franco-Italian aircraft maker ATR, now owned by Airbus, to make small planes in India but later aborted it.

HAL is expanding its footprint beyond making doors for Airbus passenger planes. “If a regional transport aircraft were to be economical, we may co-develop a futuristic engine, which is a green engine,” Suvarna Raju said.

HAL will also double the production of the home-grown light combat aircraft Tejas to 16 a year in anticipation of the 108-plane order for the Mk1 make. The expansion will cost the company Rs 2,100 crore, half of which will be borne by HAL and a quarter each by the navy and air force.

“The biggest weakness of the aerospace industry in India is the dependency on foreign engines. In the next 25 years, I see India having its indigenous aircraft with indigenous engines,” Suvarna Raju said.

HAL has sanctioned Rs 458 crore for the development of a turbofan engine that ran its first test on December 14. The design and development programme for an engine for small helicopters is also on.


Very similar report.
Global partners to design HAL commercial aircraft

In parallel, HAL is also scouting for a partner for a 10 seater commuter aircraft. It will be predominantly made of composites and will have an unpressurized cabin. So Airvan-10 competitor.

Meanwhile HAL LUH did not get off the ground by the Platinum Jubilee celebrations, something that they had really really wished for. The HTT-40 was also scheduled to fly by this year-end. But that has also slipped by a few months. However, Parrikar explicitly congratulated HAL for HTT-40 during his last visit, and Ajai Shukla got us a picture of the build. So I am expecting it to roll off the assembly in couple of months time. Let's see.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 26 Dec 2015 23:26

Gyan wrote:There used to be some talk of HAL turboprop engine also. Any latest news?


Between HTSE and HTFE, they have most of the things required for a HTPE. I have confidence in HAL coming up with a 1200 kW TS engine given their experience with Shakti. The more shaky investment is the HTFE (in my opinion), because they are not reverse engineering the Adour, they are one-upinng it. But, anybody who sees that program has to appreciate it. They have covered the basics well. They have kept the problem challenging enough, investigative enough, but not unobtainable given India's (virtually HAL's) design capabilities.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19157
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2015 00:08

^^I'd be interesting in seeing how much of those engines are locally sourced. One of the issues in most HAL programs is to build up speed, they outsource many elements to firms from abroad. Different matter that even after doing so, many times the programs face design, manufacturing issues.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 27 Dec 2015 07:16

Karan M wrote:^^I'd be interesting in seeing how much of those engines are locally sourced. One of the issues in most HAL programs is to build up speed, they outsource many elements to firms from abroad. Different matter that even after doing so, many times the programs face design, manufacturing issues.

Karan how would sourcing from abroad prevent design/manufacturing issues? In fact delays and quality issues of stuff sourced from abroad are now well known. It's only the "Indian viewpoint" rampant in this nation even among the armed forces that sourcing from abroad somehow gives us the best quality and all the faults are our own local bums.

There was this info about the Sea Eagle missiles which never worked. Then there was imported composite rotor material for ALH that caused accidents. And then there was the lousy BAe components that led to the first Hawk crash. And we know about RD 93, Al 31 and Al 55 engines. And supply of wrong adapters (or some such issue) along with Paveway seekers that required the urgent jugaad of mating them with some old Spanish bombs. Israeli and Russian maal that has never worked right. The brand new Foxtrot submarine in which cleaning cloth was left in the AC ducts by the manufacturer causing AC to choke up when the sub sailed into tropical waters. the Russian naval gun lubricated with an Arctic lubricant that ran like water in the tropic making the gun nearly blast of backwards from recoil the first time it was fired in tropical climes. The all but useless targeting system of the early Jaguars we got that required all those Darin upgrades. The list is long, but our media seem to know only about Indian quality issues.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19157
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2015 07:19

Shiv, exactly my point. However, some DPSUs have long had this mindset that importing items is a better and speedier fix than supporting local industry! For all the delays, the one positive about DRDO's programs is that they often build up substantial local capability as a given. I wish the same could be said of all big ticket programs.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 30 Dec 2015 14:00

A Wake-up Call from CAG
By Air Marshal B.K. Pandey (Retd)

http://www.sps-aviation.com/story_issue ... ticle=1786

What is also interesting and pertinent is that the present CAG was the Defence Secretary two-and-a-half years ago!


On December 18, 2015, a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India tabled in the Parliament pertained to the eroding operational capabilities of the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Army Aviation Corps (AAC).

Sukhoi Su-30MKI and the AWACS Fleets

The report highlighted the poor state of serviceability of the most recent acquisition by the IAF of the fleet of the Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat aircraft from Russia. Of the 272 aircraft ordered by the IAF, 210 have been inducted so far and the serviceability of the fleet has only been around 55 to 60 per cent as against the required 75 per cent. The Su-30 fleet also suffers from a high rate of AOG (aircraft on ground) owing to lack of spares and non-availability of adequate repair facilities. The jets also suffer from frequent snags in the fly-by-wire system and deficient radar warning receivers.

The CAG has observed that the fleet of three Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft has not been utilised at the authorised rate. The report said that there was suboptimal utilisation of their operational capabilities in terms of flying tasks due to poor planning and serviceability. On an average, there was a 43 per cent shortfall against the established task of 1,500 flying hours per annum.

Comments


The contract for licensed production of 140 Su-30MKI aircraft by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) was signed with Russia in the year 2000. The order was subsequently increased to 272 with completion of delivery by 2016-17. However, the revised time frame for delivery is 2019. The delay of two-and-a-half years was on account of the IAF’s requirement for changes in the platform to improve aerodynamic performance. As for the low serviceability, there is a combination of factors. Firstly, HAL is totally preoccupied with the production of the Su-30 and is not in a position to divert human resources required to provide maintenance support for the operational fleet. Hopefully the situation will improve after HAL completes delivery by 2019. However, if the IAF places additional orders for the Su-30, the flight line availability of the Su-30 may continue to be low for some more time.

As for maintenance issues pertaining to both the Su-30 fleet and the three IL-76-based AWACS platforms, both of Russian origin, there is possibly a commonality of problems. As for non-availability of spares and frequent snags, the IAF is dependent on the original equipment manufacturer (OEM) for product support. However, maintenance problems are compounded by the inadequacy of product support from earlier the USSR and now Russia, in respect of military hardware supplied by them. This has been an endemic problem. This is one of the reasons why the IAF has been keen on alternative sources for import of aircraft and weapon systems. Under-utilisation of the AWACS fleet, as would be the case with the Su-30 fleet with under 60 per cent serviceability, is therefore not very surprising.

Replacement of Cheetah and Chetak Fleets

The CAG has held the Ministry of Defence (MoD) responsible for failure to replace the ageing fleets of Cheetah and Chetak helicopters most of which are over 30 years old. The AAC employs these platforms for reconnaissance and logistic support to forward areas such as the Siachen Glacier. There is a deficiency of 32 per cent in the fleet strength authorised and with the low rate of serviceability, the effective operational availability is only 40 per cent of authorisation.

Comments

The tender for 197 light utility helicopters (LUH) was cancelled twice for some not entirely convincing reasons. HAL has also not been able to deliver on this front and there is no certainty of time frame in which it will. However, recently, there have been a number of joint ventures driven by the spirit of ‘Make in India’, both in the public and private sectors of the Indian aerospace industry to meet with this requirement of the IAF and the Army which at this point in time stands at 400 platforms.

The Final Word

The essence of the observations by the CAG has been available in the public domain for years and as such these have neither been closely guarded secrets nor are these original by any stretch of imagination. These problems as also many others afflicting the state of equipment in the Indian armed forces have been frequently highlighted in defence journals as also have been discussed in seminars and conferences. It is unlikely that the bureaucracy in the MoD as well as the political leadership that together are part of the government, would be oblivious of the debilitating problems that have been afflicting the IAF and the AAC for years.

What is also interesting and pertinent is that the present CAG was the Defence Secretary two-and-a-half years ago!

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20517
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 30 Dec 2015 16:24

Unlike Mil aircraft ,there are umpteen numbers of civil aircraft of all types,shapes,sizes,jets,t-props,etc.
What did China do whne they needed hundreds of single-aisle jets? They selected the Airbus A-320 for manufacture in China.At record speed the factory was et up and over 100 roll out each yr.!

Similarly,instead of attempting to reinvent the wheel time and again,the GOI,Aviation min, should decide upon what passr. capacity they want,then invite offers for the same to be manufactured in India with some tweaking for Indian requirements. t will save a decade. We clearly do not possess the design capabilities for civil aircraft,just look at Saras for example. The ATR,bought by the dozen should've been manufactured here just like the Dornier.In fact the ATR's cabin leaves much to be desired.The Sukhoi Superjet ,a 100+ seater regional jet,is one aircraft that equipped with western engines has already recd. large orders,ideal for India. There are many examples of civil aircraft ranging from Dorniers onwards that could be "made in india".There are several small amphibs that could be manufactured here.Just visit the Maldives.Dozens of seaplanes serve as taxis.Wcould do the same with them in the islands and coastal regions,where no airfiedls exist,apart from opening up inland waterways, to air transport.

But then this is the mil av td! Here too in the smaller close support,trainer regime,there are several options like Pilatus trainers,Scorpions, Tucanos,ets.The UAV requirements are in the hundreds,if not in future thousands of various types.Huge opportunities for pvt. industry for which it should be reserved other than larger stealth UCAV birds.

Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 757
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Suresh S » 31 Dec 2015 05:16

hello shiv,

A bit OT but not really when you think about it. Exact same ailment exists in the medical field. If you have the money one must travel to US or UK and such to get opinion or treatment for diseases where it is absolutely not necessary and may in fact be harmful.I agree if a certain expertise exist there is no reason not to travel to XYZ if you have the money. But it works both ways. For some diseases like head and neck cancers and tropical illnesses one should come to India to get better treatment.It is absolutely essential for India and Indians to get out of this slave mentality to look upto the west (goras)for everything if India is to get back it,s old glory. In my biased opinion having lived in and experienced most countries and cultures Hindu culture is far superior to any other.

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3762
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Shreeman » 01 Jan 2016 00:39

Aviation design and development, the research and manufacture type is dead in india. Only screwdrivergiri remains.

If one accepts that dhruv(humor me here), due to its power plant, sensors and armament is only slightly better than the proposed sergei indiginization then there is no indian aviation platform in service now barring the rapidly depleting kirans. Not even a communications duty propeller taxi. Is there one that I missed (no, not the 748s, they dont count as they are analogous to the hawks)?

Saras is never coming. HTT is still a dream, IJT will never have any volume, you can forget the larger types. Barring the LUH and LCA actually making it to the production phase this is shaping up to be a very bad decade. And once you lose the skills, they are gone. Business interests will not align with local manufacture again.

The LCA is key here, if it does not start churning out 1-2 a month, then its a bleak future. And even if that materializes, the engine replacement project must actually gather some tailwinds.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54179
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2016 01:07

So current CAG contributed to the mess IAF finds itself now and adds insult to injury or namak/mirchi in the wounds by writing CG reports!

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 01 Jan 2016 04:38

Shreeman wrote:Aviation design and development, the research and manufacture type is dead in india. Only screwdrivergiri remains.

That is a gross over-generalization, supported by misplaced examples.

1. NAL Saras: There are multiple problems they are overcoming here. Optimizing structural weight is a painstaking and time consuming operation which takes many decades to master. If you go to NAL's website where it archives its papers and dig, you can find how they are going about doing this bit by bit. They shaved off 10% of the weight from PT1 to PT2! and 10% more from PT2 to PT3 (or PT-1N). That is huge! So, clearly we are learning on the job. But they have problems:
a. They have never had a proper support (read funding). They come under the Ministry of Science and Technology!
b. They do not have any management experience in productionization! If you look at any successful product, somebody has stepped in and said, "this is good enough, manufacture it. Further improvements in the next plane!" There is nobody (at least ostensibly to do that at NAL)!
c. They do not have any experience in certification. CEMILAC is learning certification with Tejas and Saras!
d. We have had a sit-on-its-hands govt. for the most of the last 7 decades.

2. HTT-40 did not suffer from lack of design, research or manufacture. It suffered from apathy and sabotage. I give full points to HAL to fight the war from inside, and Ajai Shukla to fight the war in public space for this indigenous product. HTT-40 will see the light of day, thanks to Parrikar, and the hard working folks at HAL. Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) to green light HTT-40 indigenous trainer today. This is the fuselage from October. You can imagine it will come off the line in a couple of months from now.
Image

3. ALH and LCH have done well with the services. They are unbeatable by any other heli in their category for certain features required in the Indian scenario. Certainly HAL has to up its game in quality control and product support.

4. LUH is about to fly anytime, and I don't think anybody has any doubt in how this helicopter will perform.

5. The clouds over LCA have finally parted.

6. IJT is one aircraft which unfortunately is not our of the woods yet. Frankly, I am little worried about it.

The last decade may be called slow, but in terms of learning has provided a lot. These lessons will come in handy to accelerate the pace in the coming decade. And thakfully, we have the right government at the helm.

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3762
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Shreeman » 01 Jan 2016 08:24

indranil, we essentially admit, then, re Saras (the sum total of civilian types, from a sarkari perspectives) and ijt.

I aslked to be humored re. LCH/ALH. We could delve into them being a good part screwdrivergiri but there is something worthwhile there, even if its too little.

Re. LUH. 2015 came and went. Feb is 60 days away for LCAs.

The decade is half gone. And until the HTT comes off the line in numbers (sarkari rate of testing == 1SP by 2020 would be a miracle).

There isnt a lot of difference in our opinions. The glass is mostly empty. We argue over residual liquid quality, since there is no quantity.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 01 Jan 2016 09:26

You are right! Let me give you more examples to humor.

Mahindra is certifying airvan 10 for how many years now. It was supposed to be selling it from 2012, or was is 2011. Then, it was supposed to have certified the NM-5 in a year and the Airvan 18 soon afterwards. The year is 2015. The company is private. The country is not India.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19157
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 01 Jan 2016 09:46

^^ Most of these issues were due to prior GOI and also sarkari HAL's inability (or unwillingness) to cut the red tape. Saurav Jha tweets that HAL had to be asked to speed up on Tejas Mk1A and commit funding.

As and when Tata, Reliance etc are roped in, we can expect to see a sea change in the rate of progress.

Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3762
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Shreeman » 01 Jan 2016 10:15

indranilroy wrote:You are right! Let me give you more examples to humor.

Mahindra is certifying airvan 10 for how many years now. It was supposed to be selling it from 2012, or was is 2011. Then, it was supposed to have certified the NM-5 in a year and the Airvan 18 soon afterwards. The year is 2015. The company is private. The country is not India.


indranil,

There is much to see in the airvan saga if you want to read about it. Being bought out by Mahindra does not put all of Mahindras resources at its disposal, nor was it boeing to begin with. That story reads very very lame too. Nothing to cheer there. And the scale of a cottage operation ought not to be a good example to compare 1/6 of humanity resources.

We can blame the evil gobernmand all we want, but structures and institutions are just as moth eaten everywhere. The problem is cultural. A culture of false pride, and a culture of corruption. You dont have to put down small advances, nor do you have to claim fake progress. Reconciliation with truth requires both. One will not do.

Transparancy has gone to zero with the new overlords. Given incompetence of media, only open access to progress (not the projects, just their milestones regularly) could have produced some accidental scrutiny. However, even in house minsk square type rags are now out of fashion. Tweets do not make for any reasonable scrutiny or analysis.

There is nothing unique in this state of r&d or manufacturing. There is nothing different from many other struggling players. But the struggle will be a never ending one at the current rate.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 07 Jan 2016 09:59


shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 07 Jan 2016 11:38


Interesting Facts

Flew first RAF bombing raid in Europe since World War II (Bosnia, 1994)

in Indian exercise, successfully “sank” US carrier

called “Shamsher” (“Sword of Justice”) in India

dropped eight kiloton French nuclear bomb on Mururoa Atoll

features overwing launch rails for air-to-air missiles

was first RAF aircraft designed in metric

requires 30 minutes for engine change

made landings and takeoffs on British highway, German autobahn with full weapons load

credited with sinking or damaging 15 Iraqi vessels

nicknamed “Big Cat” and “Desert Cat”

posted Gulf War readiness rate of 98 percent

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 07 Jan 2016 11:51

The Over Wing A2A Rail on Jags was IAF invention , strangely we had to pay BA'e and did not get IP/Royalty for it as the agreement for Jags had those provision missing

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5040
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 08 Jan 2016 00:21

HAL inaugurates Tumakuru helicopter production facility

India's state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) laid the foundation for its long-pending INR50 billion (UNS670 million) military helicopter production facility at Tumakuru, some 74 km north of Bangalore, on 3 January.

The complex is projected to start licensed production of 200 twin-engine Russian Kamov Ka-226T 'Hoodlum' light multirole helicopters from 2018 and manufacturing over 600 rotary-wing platforms over the next 15 years for all three services, senior officials said.

HAL was awarded the more than USD1 billion contract to build the Ka-226Ts for the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) and Indian Air Force (IAF) in early January to replace their fleets of ageing Chetak (Aerospatiale Alouette III) and Cheetah (Aerospatiale SA 315B) helicopters.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 09 Jan 2016 16:16

8)
Aha! C-17 just landed in Bengaluru. The first I have seen landing. Saw an Il 76 in the dark last night

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1078
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shaun » 09 Jan 2016 18:01

Image
MTA having ground runs :mrgreen:

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 09 Jan 2016 21:56

shiv wrote:8)
Aha! C-17 just landed in Bengaluru. The first I have seen landing. Saw an Il 76 in the dark last night


That one will be ferrying the Sarang helis to Bahrain Air show. The C-17 itself will be on static display.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 10 Jan 2016 19:09

New video: IAF airshow in Mauritius
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Mrvl_R1NE

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4502
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby JayS » 10 Jan 2016 22:00

Any chaiwalla/panwalla info on IJT off late?? IJTs flying a lot these days..

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8064
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 11 Jan 2016 01:24

^^^ I was just about to request Ajai Shukla for an update. But this is already some good news!

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3933
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 11 Jan 2016 09:24

The grey IJT has underwing hardpoints?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 11 Jan 2016 09:29

deejay wrote:The grey IJT has underwing hardpoints?

You mean this one?
http://www.bangaloremirror.com/photo/50301171.cms

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3933
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby deejay » 11 Jan 2016 10:33

Yes. I have a photo sent from someone who doesn't want it shared. It is a long shot from the other side of the same static display and it looks like hard points under the wings.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20517
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 11 Jan 2016 12:53

Frankly,the HTT programme is a financial waste,at this point in history.It should've come out at least 5 years ago.I The global leader in trainers has been bought by the IAF,the Pilatus.Even the PC-21,again global leader for advanced trainers ,has been bought /selected by Oz just now. That aircraft obviates the need for an IJT as it can simulate the characteristics of more advanced strike fighters. The resources being spent on the HTT could be diverted to the LCA and FGFA programmes,far more important.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests