Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11329
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Oct 2015 06:30

The question is can it be corrected and publically tested within a few months, we also need to have a local engine for this. We desperately need this in huge numbers.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 21 Oct 2015 06:47

after struggling for more than a decade with iffy CMs, the chinese definitely have productionized something useful and powerful in the CJ10 long sword GLCM which is shown in all parades now. they will be producing it in good volume for all theaters now.

babur may not be as accurate or long range, but it surely works being a COTS import and in due course will be produced in PAC Kamra from chinese production machinery.

we are 10 years behind and slipping further...

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 21 Oct 2015 08:37

Karan M wrote:Nirbhay failure was apparently due to failure of control signals between nav system and actuation. Could be issue w/either or midway issue (data transmission).

could be cable or fod during assembly shifting in the nav boards.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 21 Oct 2015 10:05

Re Karan

Problems cannot be solved without multiple lines of attack and ample budgets. MoD kanjoosi is the prime cause of delay. Nirbhay budget is only Rs. 60 crores which is equal to cost of one imported cruise missile. DRDO has done very well within limited budget but Indian overall R&D is failure because of lack of money. We need to enhance DRDO budget to Rs. 50,000 crore as Chinese estimated budget is Rs. 200,000 for R& D

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4336
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 21 Oct 2015 10:33

Gyan wrote:Re Karan

Problems cannot be solved without multiple lines of attack and ample budgets. MoD kanjoosi is the prime cause of delay. Nirbhay budget is only Rs. 60 crores which is equal to cost of one imported cruise missile. DRDO has done very well within limited budget but Indian overall R&D is failure because of lack of money. We need to enhance DRDO budget to Rs. 50,000 crore as Chinese estimated budget is Rs. 200,000 for R& D


You are right on low funding for R&D in India when compared with West or China.

In that regard, Rs 1,000-crore IMPRINT is a major step forward to bring in academic institutions into the fold as far as original research is concerned. We can expect a lot more innovation coming out of Indian institutions over the course of next few decades if such streamlined research funding are sustained.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 21 Oct 2015 19:07

KaranM Any published sources or is it private communications?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Oct 2015 08:57

ARDE has called tenders for 6 casings for NGARM.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 22 Oct 2015 11:24

Pls post link

member_29151
BRFite
Posts: 121
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29151 » 22 Oct 2015 12:31


deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 22 Oct 2015 15:40

Kumar Vinod wrote:The Big Bad Russian Sam.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html


Beautiful missile, very good looking. Scary too. Why do we need it? Seriously!

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Oct 2015 19:31

Thakur_B wrote:Comprehensive list of aerospace testing facilities in India.
http://atfi.dlis.du.ac.in/ATF.php


Cross posting from R&D thread.

New missile under EMI/EMC test at RCI ? QRSAM maybe ?
Image

tushar_m

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 29 Oct 2015 20:19

Looks like Trishul QRSAM




Image

* Sorry for Big pic

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Oct 2015 20:25

Those were my first thoughts, but look at the rear section. Certainly looks like the son of Trishul.

tushar_m

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 29 Oct 2015 21:04

Is there any work going on for development of MANPADS. ????

This is the one section where no news/info. is there.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 29 Oct 2015 21:35

Trishul QRSAM was a beauty to watch it fly not only was it extremely fast at Mach 4.5 but also was very manouvering , There is no video now on the missile .

Does any one have Trishul SAM Videos ? The last one I saw was in the 90's

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7777
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 29 Oct 2015 23:21

Thakur_B wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Comprehensive list of aerospace testing facilities in India.
http://atfi.dlis.du.ac.in/ATF.php


Cross posting from R&D thread.

New missile under EMI/EMC test at RCI ? QRSAM maybe ?
Image

Can't think of anything else. Does look like Trishul Mk2.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18677
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 30 Oct 2015 00:53

Gotta admire the way DRDL is keeping everything under wraps.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23760
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 30 Oct 2015 08:06

Link

. . . . approval to digitise the 24 Pichora :eek: Surface-to-Air Missile systems at Rs. 1,800 crore, two new regiments of Pinaka Multi-Barrel Rocket launch systems at Rs. 3,300 crore


India and the US agreed on Honeywell's TALIN 2000 INS recently and the Pinaka Mk II will carry these.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2015 08:36

deejay wrote:
Kumar Vinod wrote:The Big Bad Russian Sam.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html


Beautiful missile, very good looking. Scary too. Why do we need it? Seriously!


Looks like an Indian purchase is likely. Why we need it is another question. That system has multiple capabilities and surely can't be for Nasr alone as I assumed initially.

But it is certainly designed to cause taqleef to any would be attackers.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2015 08:41

think of the gymnastics and limitations for IAF talked of in Ahuja sir's scenarios when the chinese deployed a chain of overlapping systems of S300/HQ16 class into operating areas in Tibet. each regiment would have multiple launchers and some would reload while others stand ready. SRSAM and CIWS AA would guard against PGM/cruise missiles/bombs on the LRSAM sites.

however I still feel Barak LRSAM and a follow-on ERSAM on same architecture would be better way to go for absorption of more technology, in missiles and guidance systems and we could make it volume in india vs just importing S400 lock stock and barrel. with collaboration on radars and control systems already in place with israel for IN, IAF, BMD this would be natural progression.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9561
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 30 Oct 2015 10:05

One mango question - 400 Km range means if deployed say 100 km inside India this will cover 300 km ( of course this is maximum as the range will be like a circle) inside Paki land? This is a massive advatage and practically closes entire PAF.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2983
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 30 Oct 2015 10:55

deejay wrote:
Kumar Vinod wrote:The Big Bad Russian Sam.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html


Beautiful missile, very good looking. Scary too. Why do we need it? Seriously!


I guess you are asking this as rhetorical. Do we need it? that's a contentious topic and depends on which end of the spectrum one sits and sees. even lrsam JV was not an unanimous decision.

My take, even US military 'buys' Russian war machinery. France secretly collects data on F-22. One Nato member spies on the other. I'm not taking about third world country but dominating powers in military sphere. We too did it in cases as in training with Israel & Singapore Air Force to familiarize with F16s.

So nothing wrong if India does that in the name of imports. Of course to balance out any advantage viz China and Pak. If China got that type of tech, down the line Pak may get one.

As long as it is at this level, that is, imports to familiarize and understand the enemy's potential it is OK, acceptable.

Problem is we don't know where to put a comma or a full stop. First we import as stop-gap arrangement as in Tin Can -90. These things start as drizzle and our well-oiled eco-system kicks in and these become deluge.

Already, ~300 km SAM and ~300 km AAM are in pipeline.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 30 Oct 2015 14:23

^^^ Thank You Kanson ji, it was only partly rhetorical. I am not very informed on the missile scene, though I do understand some technicalities. More so my information is short on Indian missile programmes.

If I understand correctly, S 400 is a top of the line AD system today. My apprehensions are S400 acquisition is very similar to the Rafale acquisition. The process of acquisition may be different. Can we not wait for something we can develop on our own - if not equivalent but at least good enough?

Or is the threat perception for near future so high that we cannot wait for home grown systems?

Given that we have lived under the Chinese nuclear umbrella for so long and the fact that to counter Pakistani threat we have numerous counter measures, what exactly is the need for this uber S 400? Also, no one except me seems to see this as another "Import" from the IAF -why?

Maybe, I am missing something obvious to everybody else.

sudhan
BRFite
Posts: 1092
Joined: 01 Jul 2009 17:53
Location: Timbuktoo..

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 30 Oct 2015 15:10

Yagnasri wrote:One mango question - 400 Km range means if deployed say 100 km inside India this will cover 300 km ( of course this is maximum as the range will be like a circle) inside Paki land? This is a massive advatage and practically closes entire PAF.


That is not the ideal scenario when the S-400 gets deployed.

The S-400 has multiple types of interceptors for engaging targets at different ranges, only the 40N6 interceptor (almost the size of a Prithvi missile) has that range. Apparently the Russians use it to keep the AWACS and other lumbering large aircrafts away. Also, that interceptor is quite expensive and makes no sense to fling one at Thundaars and bundars. Those can be conveniently swatted away by a variety of other options available with the IAF, or with my personal favorite, our own puppy, the Tejas. The more affordable interceptor that the S-400 uses (the 48N6) has a range of about 200 kms. We could cause some serious Shalwar browning for the PAF apduls at around 350 kms and then start delivering 72s from 200 kms onwards with the S-400 and other offensive systems.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18677
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 30 Oct 2015 15:17

Has the follow on Akash order been placed?

We had 30 Pechora squadrons. Looks like the IAF wants to replace all these with Akash/Akash-2 (perhaps 12 squadrons of Pechora digitization allows time for Akash-2). 8 Akash squadron, ordered. Recently IAF Chief said 16 more of Akash. If that order is placed, then 6 squadrons for Akash Mk2.

SAM-8/OSA-AK gets replaced by SpyDer & QRSAM. 8 squadrons (?) of SpyDer already ordered.
S-400 and MRSAM will likely be entirely new class of SAMs with GOI approval. 9 squadrons of MRSAM are on order. S-400, 12 systems are mentioned. Could be 12 batteries or 12 squadrons. Considering its secondary IRBM/TBM role, perhaps squadrons, 1-2 squadrons along with local BMD per important metro and/or colocated IACCS node or AFB.

Looks like IAF is on expansion mode. Going purely by past is not an indication since IAF ordered Prithvi SSMs and then Brahmos SSMs both of which had no prior counterpart in inventory.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Oct 2015 15:30

deejay wrote:Or is the threat perception for near future so high that we cannot wait for home grown systems?

Given that we have lived under the Chinese nuclear umbrella for so long and the fact that to counter Pakistani threat we have numerous counter measures, what exactly is the need for this uber S 400? Also, no one except me seems to see this as another "Import" from the IAF -why?

Maybe, I am missing something obvious to everybody else.

deejay that is an interesting question.

Let me make a guess here: In brief, it is about Pakistan, although the reasons are OT for this thread

Why Pakistan?

As I see it the way Pakistan is heading they are showing no intention of backing away from terrorism against India under a nuclear umbrella. That is set to go on and on and on, with nuclear red lines being lowered every time India even considers responding to Pakistan. If we had cooperation from the US and China maybe things would pan out differently, but neither the US nor China are the least bit interested in the fact that Pakistan's nukes are aimed at India and that terrorism is set to continue.

The US in particular is piling on F-16s on Pakistan thinking that they will get cooperation while they bleat and whine saying that Hafeez Saeed should be arrested and that terrorism should stop. The US is afraid that a nuke will get out of Pakistan and eventually be used against a western target. This is EXACTLY what the Pakistani army want the US to think, whether it is true or not. That is what keeps the aid pouring in and that is what enables them to continue anti-India actions forever.

While India should indeed develop things in house, I think there may be multiple reasons to "buy off" Russian cooperation. One is to keep them on our side. The other is to reassure Pakista that all their AWACS, aircraft and missiles WILL be shot down in a war and that India will consider itself free to start that war in case of continued terrorist attacks.

Pakis are afraid of war but they have ensured that India is more afraid by promising nuclear bombs in case of conventional attack by India. S-400 may be a signal that Pakistan nuclear bombs will not get to their targets no matter what the delivery mode is and that India will hit them back and finish them off. I can see people being sceptical about Indian intent to "finish off" Pakistan, but in this game threats backed by the potential to carry them out are paramount. Pakistani threats may be bluffs, but they might have the potential to carry them out. Indian counter threats similarly need to be backed by demonstrable power to carry them out. "OK you start hitting us with nukes. We will knock out your missiles and air force and AWACS and then nuke you". Pakistanis will understand that.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3732
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby hnair » 30 Oct 2015 15:50

deejay, adding a speculation here: A few of the recent Indo-Russian defence deals seem to be a form of "inverse offsets", for technology that are sensitive and hence need to be transferred in a muted fashion. So India gets tech and some ready made hardware (instead of TOT/CKD), that seemed to fit in with the general plan. So it is kind of a good deal in the backdrop of the recent rejection of membership into MTCR et al.

In the earlier days, we just shipped tea-dust back to them. But things changed

sudhan
BRFite
Posts: 1092
Joined: 01 Jul 2009 17:53
Location: Timbuktoo..

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 30 Oct 2015 15:55

Re:deejay

My 2 cents:

I think what has changed is that a hawkish govt has taken power and surgical cross border strikes are being considered for real (operations farther than the ones currently done). Such operations could go well with a defensive heavy hitting weapon system on our side. With the S-400 (with the advertised potential) one could effectively enforce a no-fly zone and keep the PAF from retaliating against retreating air units or against our airfields.

pragnya
BRFite
Posts: 728
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 18:41

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pragnya » 30 Oct 2015 15:59

Karan M wrote:Has the follow on Akash order been placed?

We had 30 Pechora squadrons. Looks like the IAF wants to replace all these with Akash/Akash-2 (perhaps 12 squadrons of Pechora digitization allows time for Akash-2). 8 Akash squadron, ordered. Recently IAF Chief said 16 more of Akash. If that order is placed, then 6 squadrons for Akash Mk2.

SAM-8/OSA-AK gets replaced by SpyDer & QRSAM. 8 squadrons (?) of SpyDer already ordered.
S-400 and MRSAM will likely be entirely new class of SAMs with GOI approval. 9 squadrons of MRSAM are on order. S-400, 12 systems are mentioned. Could be 12 batteries or 12 squadrons. Considering its secondary IRBM/TBM role, perhaps squadrons, 1-2 squadrons along with local BMD per important metro and/or colocated IACCS node or AFB.

Looks like IAF is on expansion mode. Going purely by past is not an indication since IAF ordered Prithvi SSMs and then Brahmos SSMs both of which had no prior counterpart in inventory.


DAC cleared 7 Akash sq for the IAF.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 30 Oct 2015 16:14

the 40N6 missile or any equivalent would pose a grave threat to the idea of PAF AWACS being able to orbit close enough to provide guidance to their strike a/c attempting DPSA on us or BAI over the fwd areas.

once these big missiles get into the terminal hunt there is very little a awacs or tanker can do to escape barring electronic countermeasures and chaff clouds.

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1815
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 30 Oct 2015 17:01

I think this is more to do with neutralizing the "threat" of Nasr and tactical nukes

I personally don't think anyone would be so reckless, but hey this is Pakistan we're talking about - you never know what their generals smoke.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3888
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 30 Oct 2015 20:36

Thanks Shiv Ji, HNair ji, Sudhan ji Singha ji and Srin.

If it is Pakistan centered, we should see their deployment on the Western Front. Anywhere else, the reasons are different.

If indeed there are military specific reasons, then this is the first overt sign of a doctrinal shift w.r.t. Pakistan. This (IMO) will be the first acquisition towards the defensive - offense specific capability. All the other systems 'could' also be used in this role however their purchases were part of the old defensive thinking. This one is a defensive system which specifically in case of Pakistan can be used offensively fairly deep into Pakistan.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53478
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 30 Oct 2015 20:57

deejay, will see deployment on both sides. After POKII, conventional threshold has to be maintained high.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2983
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 30 Oct 2015 21:11

deejay wrote:^^^ Thank You Kanson ji, it was only partly rhetorical. I am not very informed on the missile scene, though I do understand some technicalities. More so my information is short on Indian missile programmes.

If I understand correctly, S 400 is a top of the line AD system today. My apprehensions are S400 acquisition is very similar to the Rafale acquisition. The process of acquisition may be different. Can we not wait for something we can develop on our own - if not equivalent but at least good enough?

Or is the threat perception for near future so high that we cannot wait for home grown systems?

Given that we have lived under the Chinese nuclear umbrella for so long and the fact that to counter Pakistani threat we have numerous counter measures, what exactly is the need for this uber S 400? Also, no one except me seems to see this as another "Import" from the IAF -why?

Maybe, I am missing something obvious to everybody else.


Ji... there is no such acquisition yet. Before this, big Q is, does it cater to our needs....

On paper S400 looks formidable, big missile around 500 km, Aster type missile with PIF-PAF motor and so on... ability to detect VLO stealthy crafts as well as those at very low altitudes. So how much of these claims are actually real & could be usable to our needs...we don't know. There were glitches in earlier version and the earlier big missile had issues.

Very likely explanation for such an enquiry of such system could be Chinese advancement in stealth aircraft/UAV or low alt cruise missile. Considering spate of border tensions with Chinese, present gov (unlike previous gov) could have initiated dialogue in advance, seeing such potential threat. It may or may not result in purchase. Too early to comment on rationality of such acquisition as no such thing happened.

I believe, our own BMD system is more capable than S400 in dealing with Chinese nuclear arsenal.

vasu raya
BRFite
Posts: 1658
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vasu raya » 30 Oct 2015 22:03

Kanson wrote:On paper S400 looks formidable, big missile around 500 km, Aster type missile with PIF-PAF motor and so on... ability to detect VLO stealthy crafts as well as those at very low altitudes. So how much of these claims are actually real & could be usable to our needs...we don't know.


The Nebo-M radar is said to be compatible with the S400 and it uses a VHF AESA to detect VLO, then there is the 100ft mast radar for low flying ones

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1639
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 31 Oct 2015 01:10

Deleted

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1462
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 31 Oct 2015 03:13

indranilroy wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Cross posting from R&D thread.

New missile under EMI/EMC test at RCI ? QRSAM maybe ?
Image

Can't think of anything else. Does look like Trishul Mk2.


Me thinks that the QRSAM body should be adapted with an IR seeker for AA role.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4336
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 31 Oct 2015 04:49

^^^

That would be the reverse of modern trend where AAMs get converted into SAMs.

alexis
BRFite
Posts: 457
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 22:14
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby alexis » 31 Oct 2015 14:26

What is this digitalisation of pechora SAMs? I( thought they were being phased out with Akash coming in as replacements.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23385
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 31 Oct 2015 15:10

TOI reports "MoD sources on Friday said the project was being "fast-tracked" as a "critical operational requirement" through a government-to-government deal."

In past MOD has used such "critical operational requirement" to speed up deals without providing any rational explanation of it , There was no need for 400 km SAM in our environment till yesterday and suddenly critical requirement arises today , Either they were negotiating secretly for long or its one of those critical op requirement as like past deals we will never know.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Vamsee and 26 guests