Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Nov 2015 20:53

SaiK wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Thank you Disha and Idev, wonder what kind of RCS the guidance radar can track @ max range...400km of missile.
scary question especially considering advancements in stealth skins to deflect/absorb radiations., and i dunno if any electro-optical ir sensor can track and lock at very long ranges.

right now advantage ballistics with stealth technology especially the IRs and ICs. we need AAD/PAD to think about this in detail. i dunno even if the israeli radar systems suffice. better get MAD to deny the first strike.

The Russians apparently build Russia sized radar signal generators with railway engine grade power generators that can burn through any jamming - so I'm guessing that those signals at 400 km will be powerful enough to send a usable reflection at last from AWACS size objects. All this just to deter Mathias Rust

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Nov 2015 01:27

And here we have
India May Ink Nuke Sub Deal, Hold back on S-400 Missiles, FGFA During Modi's Russia Visit
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/14530/ ... j5lECseF5Q

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Nov 2015 04:57

Again, high costs being cited. There simply is not that much money for just buying one type of defense system.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Nov 2015 05:24

Some confusion here: I have not seen any claim that S-400 is a BMD system. Wiki aunty lists it as "anti-aircraft defence". Yes it seems to have some ABM capability too

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 08 Nov 2015 13:50

Does potential S-400 acquisition impact LR-SAM programme? It makes sense only if it is intended for BMD work, as the latter can take care of cruise missile and aircraft.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Nov 2015 14:25

Aditya G wrote:Does potential S-400 acquisition impact LR-SAM programme? It makes sense only if it is intended for BMD work, as the latter can take care of cruise missile and aircraft.

Aditya, MRSAM/LRSAM are ~70km (~100km with booster). The S-400 is upto 400km so there is a huge difference & hence not just BMD.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 08 Nov 2015 19:26

A key variable which nobody has addressed so far is the "protection footprint" provided by each "system", i.e. the acquisition radar, the engagement radar and the 8-12 launcher units that make up the core of each system. That will determine how many "systems" are needed for protection of various assets i.e. cities, airbases, refineries etc. and very importantly therefore, the cost of protection.

Cost factors alone will make providing a full ABM shield over all of India an unviable proposition. At best the Green Pine derived LRTR will provide protection to the major metros. I think the area where India lags behind right now is not radar tech, good progress has been made, supposedly the LRTR can detect a cricket ball sized object at (600 kms?). It is fast acceleration long range ABM missiles that are missing. Wasn't there supposed to be AD-1 and AD-2 missiles developed as a follow on to AAD/PAD? What happened to those?

India has to also think out of the box. Traditional missile threat thinking says that the closer to launch the target is, the lower the warning available. Hence the US used to be/is paranoid about SLBMs launched off their east coast. But for India which has Pakistan right next door and with Pakistan's depth not more than 400 kms at most, India has to come up with boost phase detection and destruction of Pakistan missiles. That will need long range quick acting, preferable mobile, ABM missiles and acquisition radars. The perceived disadvantage of having an enemy launching a missile from close by has to be turned into an advantage by the ability to destroy those missiles during the boost phase. That is when they have the largest radar signature and are moving relatively slowly. Pakistan's lack of depth gives India that advantage. This strategy will ensure that in the event of a large scale Pakistan nuclear missile attack against India, the majority of those missiles will be destroyed in the boost phase and the LRTR/AAD/PAD combo will only have to deal with a small number of manageable threats. I doubt whether even the Aegis SM-3 US system can deal with a saturation attack of say 50 missiles in the parabolic stage of their flight when the warheads have already separated. But that is something which a mad dog Pakistan is quite capable off. And that is something which India has to be prepared to handle. And the best ABM systems in the world will not be able to acquire and intercept 50 warheads with a 100% guarantee of success. But a combination of boost phase intercepts and mopping up the remainder via a traditional ABM shield will work better.

What combination of radars and missiles will be needed to achieve such boost phase intercepts?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Nov 2015 23:25

how does alhtk counter the decoys, primarily decoy detection algo?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 09 Nov 2015 10:12

Press Trust of India ‏@PTI_News 13m13 minutes ago
India test-fires its nuclear-capable long-range strategic ballistic missile Agni-IV from a test range off Odisha coast: Defence sources.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 09 Nov 2015 11:34

Ministry of Defence, Government of India(Please 'like' this page for Prestitutes free news updates)
27 mins ·

Long range ballistic missile Agni–IV successfully flight tested at 9.45 am from Dr A P J Abdul Kalam (Wheeler) Island launch complex. 1/3

The mission met all objectives as monitored and confirmed by the telemetry, Electro-optical stations, Radar stations along the coast. 2/3

Down range ships positioned at the target point monitored the terminal event.Project Director Ms Tessy Thomas led launch operations. 3/3

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2015 12:04

its the same brutal sacrifices and training that go into making olympic champions. its a tournament with steep cut offs at each level up.

so far we are conserving cash and playing at national level only, not asian or worlds.

those OTH radar r&d will take hell lot of resources imo.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2015 12:11

True, all we are peaceful and dharmik onlee mindset.

That NFU stuff also needs to go, either today or tomorrow.

Strength respects strength.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2015 12:21

Thanks Vipin.

Just reiterating this to see how our press twists news with a political slant - earlier we had reports of how Modi govt had stopped missile tests. Now we can see the reality.

Also, the second point about the instrumentation DRDO deploys to measure all aspects of its missile tests.

vipins wrote:Ministry of Defence, Government of India(Please 'like' this page for Prestitutes free news updates)
27 mins ·

Long range ballistic missile Agni–IV successfully flight tested at 9.45 am from Dr A P J Abdul Kalam (Wheeler) Island launch complex. 1/3

The mission met all objectives as monitored and confirmed by the telemetry, Electro-optical stations, Radar stations along the coast. 2/3

Down range ships positioned at the target point monitored the terminal event.Project Director Ms Tessy Thomas led launch operations. 3/3

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Nov 2015 12:40

Trident missile launched near LA yesterday and someone captured a grainy,nighttime video of the same:

A meteor? Aliens? West Coast surprised by mystery rocket launch

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Nov 2015 13:40

Technically Russia cannot supply India with a 400km missile as part of S-400 because of MTCR. If Russia had decided not to comply with MTCR then we would never have this tamasha of 299.998 km Brahmos.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2015 13:44

russia if it chooses to comply after all said and done , its their own fault.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 09 Nov 2015 13:57

Mods please delete all posts I have made and delete my brf account as I don't pass muster.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2015 14:01

shiv wrote:Technically Russia cannot supply India with a 400km missile as part of S-400 because of MTCR. If Russia had decided not to comply with MTCR then we would never have this tamasha of 299.998 km Brahmos.

I dont think SAM comes under MTCR , Only BM and Cruise Missile.

Technically if MTCR is followed by letter and spirit MTCR countries should not export UAV with range of more than 300 km

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2015 14:06

Sanjay wrote:Mods please delete all posts I have made and delete my brf account as I don't pass muster.

A classic case of overreaction & an appeal to authority to intervene.

So your views must not be challenged even if they are contradicted by available evidence.

What do the mods have to do with your statements on this board & any fact based debate with any other poster?

If you have data to back up your views, please present them & support them.

Don't dismiss anything & everything because the working assumptions you made were wrong & somebody else clearly showed the evidence to contradict them.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 09 Nov 2015 14:12

Karan you have shown press reports and ignored everything to the contrary. Sengupta and Joshi have points even if you don't like.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2015 14:17

Sanjay wrote:Karan you have shown press reports and ignored everything to the contrary. Sengupta and Joshi have points even if you don't like.

Sanjay - problem is you don't have any facts to back up your claims bar dismissing all reports to the contrary, and that is my only concern with the statements you have made.

There are no credible reports backing your statements.

Press reports citing missile technologists have credibility. These are people who work in the field & have done so for decades.

People like Sengupta and Joshi have zero credibility. They lack the domain expertise & even the basic understanding to talk about subjects like these.

There is an entire thread dedicated to the farce that are Sengupta's articles.

Please support your statements with serious claims stating any of the points you have raised, not stating the views of folks like Joshi and Sengupta.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Nov 2015 14:18

Austin wrote:
shiv wrote:Technically Russia cannot supply India with a 400km missile as part of S-400 because of MTCR. If Russia had decided not to comply with MTCR then we would never have this tamasha of 299.998 km Brahmos.
I dont think SAM comes under MTCR , Only BM and Cruise Missile.

Technically if MTCR is followed by letter and spirit MTCR countries should not export UAV with range of more than 300 km

Good point about SAMs Austin but I think UAVs do come under MTCR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Nov 2015 14:24

the Heron UAVs we have surely have a range much more than 400km given their long endurance 52 hours.
even @ 100kmph (half their max speed), it will be 5200km.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Nov 2015 14:25

Sanjay wrote:Mods please delete all posts I have made and delete my brf account as I don't pass muster.

SBM ji,

kindly consider 'ignore user' feature.

Regards.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 09 Nov 2015 14:26

Ignore user?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2015 14:29

shiv wrote:Good point about SAMs Austin but I think UAVs do come under MTCR.

Technically and Philosophically UAV do but no one wants to keep UAV under MTCR , Even a UAV say like Nishant with 200 Km Radius and 50 kg payload with 2-3 hour endurance would easily do more than double the range if its on one way suicide missile. Systems like searcher have like 6-8 hours of endurance.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2015 14:39

Has DRDO come up with any specs or broucher of LRTR ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2015 14:49

Yes, they have. It should be on the forum itself someplace as I had posted it.

From memory, 600km range 0.1 Sq Mtr, L Band, 0.9pd, 36x21 feet array etc.

In fact, there was also an amusing thing I found in one of the DRDO pdfs about radars. They actually displayed a test range & the LRTR antenna by accident. Much before the BMD tests took place. At Aero India they even displayed the C3I system, again in a corner and everyone ignored it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2015 15:17

Singha wrote:the Heron UAVs we have surely have a range much more than 400km given their long endurance 52 hours.
even @ 100kmph (half their max speed), it will be 5200km.

Speaking of which, finally:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... v-fly-soon

Rangan told AIN that Rustom-2 is benefiting from experience gained with the Rustom-1, also known as the Light Canard Research Aircraft (LCRA). This project of the National Aerospace Laboratory (NAL) developed a small UAV that resembled the Rutan Long-EZ manned sportplane. It flew 55 times and still has “enormous scope and potential,” according to Rangan.

Rustom-2 will be further developed and produced by a consortium comprising Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), DRDO and Bharat Electronics Ltd. They have jointly invested $46 million, Rangan told a UAV seminar held in New Delhi this week. The initial requirement is for 76 for the the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force.

Rangan explained the third and fourth airframes are going through a design validation phase that would end in January 2016. The fifth to eighth airframes for the user evaluation phase have been ordered. They will evaluate payloads including electro-optics, synthetic aperture radar, multifunction phased array radar, electronic intelligence and satcom. Rangan told AIN airframes 9 to 15 will follow from the production line by early 2017.

The biggest challenge being faced is an overweight airframe. “Today it weighs 2,400 kg [5,300 pounds]. We are looking to bring that down to 1,700 kg [3,700 pounds] after delivery of the first 24,” Rangan said. The military has set exacting qualitative requirements, he added, including multi-sensor payloads weighing no more than 360 kg (800 pounds) and an endurance of 25 hours. The added weight obliged ADE to fit larger powerplants: Austro Engine AE300 diesels rated at 170 hp.

Perhaps we can explore having our Rustom derivatives loitering with Astra variants designed for the ABM mission!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2015 15:49

Sorry didn't get that. Can you explain further?

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Nov 2015 19:38

India Successfully Test Fires Its Nuclear Capable Agni IV Missile.

India today successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable strategic ballistic missile Agni-IV, capable of hitting a target at a distance of 4,000 km, from newly named Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast.

The missile, which is about 20 metres tall and weighs 17 tons, was flight tested from the launch complex-4 of Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Abdul Kalam Island, formerly known as Wheeler Island, at about 9.45 am, defence sources said.

The launch was spearheaded by India's missile woman Ms. Tessy Thomas. This was the fifth trial of the Agni IV missile. This fire and forget missile is navigated using a jam proof ring laser gyroscope.

According to the Ministry of Defence, it has "met all objectives as monitored and confirmed by the telemetry" and ships located in the down range monitored the "terminal event" which is the explosion of the dummy warhead.

India already has battery of nuclear capable missile like, the Agni series, Prithvi series and the Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile.

"The sophisticated surface-to-surface missile is equipped with modern and compact avionics to provide high level of reliability," sources in Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) said.

Agni-IV missile is equipped with 5th generation onboard computer and distributed architecture. It has the latest features to correct and guide itself for in-flight disturbances, they said.

The most accurate ring laser gyro-based inertial navigation system (RINS) and supported by highly reliable redundant micro navigation system (MINGS), ensures the vehicle reaches the target within two-digit accuracy.

The re-entry heat shield can withstand temperatures in the range of 4,000 degrees centigrade and makes sure the avionics function normally with inside temperature remaining less than 50 degrees centigrade.

This was the fifth trial of Agni-IV missile. The last trial conducted by SFC of the army on December 2, 2014 was successful.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 09 Nov 2015 19:51

Shitistani newspaper Dawn reporting that AGNI V will be test fired in Jan-Feb next year.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Nov 2015 13:44

http://www.bel-india.com/news

Compare & contrast with HAL.

BEL Setting Up Defence Systems Integration Unit in Andhra

Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar lays the foundation stone of BEL's Defence Systems Integration Complex in Andhra Pradesh.

Coming up in Palasamudram, Gorantala Mandal in Anantapuramu district of Andhra Pradesh, it will be the largest such facility in the country once it is commissioned, covering an area of over 900 acres.

BEL have been continuously investing in modernisation and creation of special infrastructure to cater for emerging defence business opportunities.

SK Sharma, Chairman and Managing Director, BEL, said that BEL is also strengthening its infrastructure in areas like Night Vision technologies and elements of Multifunction Radars.

Various new Surface-to-Air Missile (SAM) programmes are proposed to be taken up by BEL, namely Quick Reaction SAM, Long Range SAM, Medium Range SAM among others in addition to Network Centric Communication and Electronic Warfare systems, to achieve self-reliance in defence, there is need for a very strong indigenous R&D.

In this direction, BEL has not only maintained a consistent policy of R&D investments but also has launched collaborative R&D with private small and medium enterprise firms in the country, the statement said.

On an average, 80 per cent of BEL's Sales turnover is from indigenous R&D every year.

The Palasamudram facility will enable BEL to expand its Missile systems business and will carry out manufacturing and integration for the ongoing and upcoming projects.

It will have state-of-the-art infrastructure such as Assembly Hangars and Hard Stands for Radars and Weapon integration, RF radiation sources for target simulation, Automatic Test Equipment, Clean Rooms for electronic assembly, Non-Explosive & Explosive Integration Buildings, Missile Storage buildings, Environmental Test Chambers, Fire Stations, Solar Power Plant, Estate and Admin buildings.

The facility is about 80 Km from the Bengaluru International Airport on NH7. The proposed Complex will be a world-class facility with Automated Guided Vehicles and Industrial Robots for material movement and handling.

The facility will be built in stages as the various projects mature and the estimated investment will be about Rs. 500 crore over a period of 3 to 4 years.

BEL also plans to expand this facility for the creation of a Military Industrial Complex to set up the necessary ecosystem for manufacture of electronic components and equipment for various upcoming Defence projects in collaboration with SMEs as part of the Government's 'Make in India' initiative.

The Palasamudram facility will enable BEL to expand its missile systems business and will carry out manufacturing and integration for the ongoing and upcoming projects, BEL said it will have state-of-the-art infrastructure such as Assembly Hangars and Hard Stands for Radars and Weapon integration, among others.

At present, BEL carries out its missile manufacturing and integration activities and system level checks at its Bengaluru Unit. In order to cater to the large requirements of futuristic surface to air missile systems, missiles and associated electronic sub-systems & components, BEL is setting up this facility in Andhra Pradesh.

The proposed complex will be a world-class facility with automated guided vehicles and industrial robots for material movement and handling.

BEL also plans to expand this facility for the creation of a military industrial complex to set up the necessary ecosystem for manufacture of electronic components and equipment for various upcoming Defence projects in collaboration with SMEs as part of the government's Make in India initiative.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Nov 2015 21:20

so, our agni 4 goes operatational! yahoo.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 121897.ece

hope we can get to see a video of this test launch, and perhaps the target hit!
ME+China : done & done.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2015 22:17

KaranM, Lets move these to the ABM thread. Either you do it or report the posts and I will move them.

Thanks, ramana

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2015 22:31

SaiK wrote:so, our agni 4 goes operatational! yahoo.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 121897.ece

hope we can get to see a video of this test launch, and perhaps the target hit!
ME+China : done & done.

We stopped following Agni achievements in this PAD/Vad dialogue.

In the end its the Agni that prevents the need for PAD use.

Army N-abled Missile Clears Agni Pariksha

By Hemant Kumar Rout

BALASORE: The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of Indian Army on Monday successfully conducted second user trial of surface-to-surface nuclear capable missile Agni-IV, first of its kind in the world, from a defence base off Odisha coast.

Defence sources said, the test was carried out at about 9.45 am from a road mobile launcher positioned at launching complex-IV of APJ Abdul Kalam Island test facility. This indigenously developed intermediate range ballistic missile (IRBM) was fired with a dummy payload in full operational configuration.

Propelled by composite solid fuel rocket motor technology, the missile rose to a height of over 800 km before covering nearly 3,200 km (2000 miles) in less than 20 minutes. It hit the target with two digit (~10M or 33 feet) accuracy meeting all mission objectives and proving the capabilities of the missile.

Defence spokesperson Sitanshu Kar said, “the mission met all objectives as monitored and confirmed by the telemetry, electro-optical stations, radar stations along the coast. Down range ships positioned at the target point monitored the terminal event. Project Director Tessy Thomas led the launch operations.”

Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister G Sateesh Reddy and senior DRDO officials were also present along with the Army bigwigs during the test. The successful launch has boosted the morale of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) which has developed the missile.

Last month, India’s first home-grown missile — Nirbhay — had failed during a developmental trial as it deviated from the flight path after the engine lost its thrust.

Agni-IV is equipped with state-of-the-art avionics, fifth generation on board computer and distributed architecture. The most accurate Ring Laser Gyro-based Inertial Navigation System (RINS) and supported by highly reliable redundant Micro Navigation System (MINGS), ensured the vehicle reach the target within two digit accuracy.

The re-entry heat shield made of carbon composite material withstood temperatures in the range of 4000 degree Centigrade and made sure the avionics function normally with inside temperature remaining less than 50 degree Centigrade. The two-stage solid propelled missile is 20 metre tall and weighs around 17 tonne. It can carry warhead of upto one tonne.

This was the sixth test of the missile. It was first tested on December 10, 2010 which had failed while its second, third, fourth and fifth tests on November 15, 2011, September 19, 2012, January 20 and December 2, last year were successful.

A lot of details which confirm this missile is in SFC. They give its success probability having had 5 consecutive successful flights. Plot it on probability paper and drool.
One thing to not is the RV is the long slender RV similar to the Agni I series.
The other RV is the AV short and fat RV.

I think there are two weapons the long slender which I will call Agni I vintage and the short fat RV which I call the Agni V vintage.

We need to see what IN shows once it launches the K15 and K4 missiles.

It also means TSP can be hit from even Kanya Kumari and cannot hope to escape.

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Nov 2015 04:15

surface-to-surface nuclear capable missile Agni-IV, first of its kind in the world

What is first of its kind in the world in A-IV?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2015 04:30

They are saying there is no comparable missile with AIV features: range, payload, guidance etc. There are others with less or more features.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Nov 2015 10:42

Those who're infatuated with Chinese DF-21 need to understand that we now have an equally capable, if not better, weapon in Shourya & A-4.

A reentry vehicle with BrahMos SAR seeker and gas thrusters for minute corrections would give it a limited ability to attack mobile targets.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Nov 2015 12:03

ramana wrote:KaranM, Lets move these to the ABM thread. Either you do it or report the posts and I will move them.

Thanks, ramana

Ramana, if its not too much of a bother, I'd report the posts. Quoted posts are not as easy to read and that's what I can do.