Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Zynda » 30 Dec 2015 10:33

X-posting

Folks, a request. If anyone comes across tenders from DRDO/ADA/NAL/HAL which involves work with mech/aero structures like CAD/FEM/Structures Testing, please let me know. I know a small firm who are made of ex-NAL/HAL employees and they are looking for such opportunities like the above. Would be really helpful.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2015 14:02

Folks - Barak 8 tested successfully last night and today from Indian ship and it has not appeared here? Amazing. Or have I missed it due to superfast moving thread

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Viv S » 30 Dec 2015 14:04

shiv wrote:Folks - Barak 8 tested successfully last night and today from Indian ship and it has not appeared here? Amazing. Or have I missed it due to superfast moving thread


Check the naval thread. Photos from the test posted there too.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23694 » 01 Jan 2016 09:37

dhiraj wrote:


Seems realpolitik in play and probably after some time matter will be sorted out in interest of both parties. JMT


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1151231/j ... oYHk_l94dU

India, Italy work on deal on marines
- Secret talks on 'road map'

If the deal is finalised, the Indian government will not object to any Italian plea before the Supreme Court to allow Salvatore Girone, one of the two marines arrested for shooting dead two Kerala fishermen off India's coast on February 15, 2012, to return to Italy. Massimiliano Latorre, the other marine, is already in Italy. (See chart)

But Italy will first need to commit to withdrawing objections to New Delhi's membership to four key export control regimes - the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the Wassenaar Arrangement and the Australia Group.

Italy, a member of all four clubs that control the world's trade in nuclear supplies, high-end missiles, chemicals that can be used for weapons and "dual use" technology - which can be used for military purposes - had in September vetoed India's membership application to the MTCR.


http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-di ... ly-1261091

India Dismisses Suggestions Of Quid Pro Quo Deal With Italy

India has today said there was no link between its bid for membership in the nuclear export control regimes, of which Italy is a member, and the marines issue, dismissing suggestion that the two countries were working on a quid pro quo deal.
The Spokesperson's reaction came amid reports that India was secretly negotiating a deal with Italy under which the government will not object to any Italian plea in the case of marines, who are charged with killing two Kerala fishermen and Rome will not object to India's membership of export control regimes.


Let's see where things go now :!: :!:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Ashokk » 08 Jan 2016 18:44

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 08 Jan 2016 18:59

Last years news ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Vipul » 09 Jan 2016 06:12

India Readies For Home Grown Interceptor Missile Test.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is slated to test fire its patriot Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile from a defence base off the Odisha coast against an incoming ballistic missile to assess the home-grown weapon’s ‘killing' capability. Reliable sources told The New Indian Express while the preparation was going on in full swing at the Abdul Kalam Island (formerly known as Wheeler Island), the test is likely to be conducted either on Sunday or Monday. More than one hundred scientists and technical officials are camping at the test facility for the crucial launching of the complex weapon system.

As per the coordinated programme, the incoming missile mimicking an enemy missile will be launched from a warship anchored in the Bay of Bengal and a few minutes later the indigenously developed interceptor missile would lift off from the launching complex-IV of the Kalam Island after getting requisite command from the tracking radar.

Though on November 22, the missile had intercepted an electronic target; all eyes are on the real test in which the interceptor would actually destroy the incoming high speed ballistic missile over Bay of Bengal. On April 6, last year the missile nosedived within a couple of seconds after it took off from the mobile launcher. A defence official said the missile integration is finished and the preparation for the test is near complete. ‘Final round check ups are on.’

'The scientists are leaving no stone unturned to make the mission successful', he said. India has a Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system capable of tracking and destroying hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere. The success of the AAD test will boost India join the very exclusive BMD club of US, Russia and Israel.

In a bid to protect major Indian cities, the DRDO in the first phase has developed two-layered BMD system while the research and development is on to develop Phase-II anti-ballistic missile defence system, capable of destroying enemy inter-continental ballistic missiles fired from 5,000 km away. The first phase two-layered BMD system capable of killing enemy missiles fired from 2,000 km away is expected to be inducted in the armed forces soon.

It will be 12th test of the missile, third in last ten months. Earlier of the 11 tests, 8 in endo-atmospheric region (below the altitude of 40 km) and three in exo-atmosphere (above an altitude of 80 km), nine tests have been successful.

The test is aimed at observing the operational effectiveness of the low altitude interceptor missile which is considered as similar to the American PAC-3 system in terms of range and altitude of interception.

Developed by DRDO, the 7.5 metre tall AAD interceptor is a single stage solid rocket propelled guided missile equipped with an inertial navigation system, a hi-tech computer and an electro-mechanical activator totally under command by the data up-linked from the ground based radar. It has the capability to destroy the enemy missiles fired from 1,000 km away.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 09 Jan 2016 06:46

the missile that nose dived mentioned above ,was the one simulating the target missile not the interceptor missile . All the best for the team.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby thammu » 11 Jan 2016 08:29

Any update on AAD?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 12 Jan 2016 08:28

What happened to the AAD test? It is Tuesday today.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Jan 2016 14:18

^ bump??? no newj?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Vipul » 14 Jan 2016 18:48

What about further Agni V test? IIRC, after the last canister launch a year ago there were supposed to be 2 more trials 'within a year' for rapid induction. The Babus announce everything (to get increased fund allocations every year) but deliver a lot less.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramdas » 14 Jan 2016 19:39

What about further Agni V test? IIRC, after the last canister launch a year ago there were supposed to be 2 more trials 'within a year' for rapid induction. The Babus announce everything (to get increased fund allocations every year) but deliver a lot less.


I do not think the issue here is a lack of capability in DRDO. After all, we launched 5 PSLV/GSLV last year and are soon going to do one each month between now and March. It is very likely a decision of GoI to stall Agni V and K-4 testing (unless Dr. Avinash Chander's forced retirement has screwed up DRDO to a very large extent, which is unlikely). In general, missile testing has slowed down somewhat since even the last years of the UPA.

The possible reason for this slow down is the unwarranted hankering after a ``strategic partnership" with the West. Never expected this sort of a let down from Narendra Modi: his govt. is proving to be a cleaner version of the UPA at best. Hope the powers that be come to their senses sooner than later.

The neglect of our deterrent capacity by this govt. is shocking to say the least.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 15 Jan 2016 01:00

Hmmm.......the tests do seem to have slowed down. Though I don't know if the reasons are what you describe.

On the conventional front & even Arihant, Parikkar has been a breath of fresh air compared to Anthony.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramdas » 15 Jan 2016 02:36

Not on Arihant. For one, Arihant is just a training vessel until it gets the K-4. Even with the K-15, actual missile firing (not ejection tests) seems to have been postponed repeatedly since end November.

The only explanation other than GUBO to the west is that personnel and other resources have been diverted to the conventional side. Even this would be very foolish on the part of GoI.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nirav » 15 Jan 2016 02:57

Ramdas ji,

First you speculate on reasons for slowed testing. Then you go on to assume the worst and make conclusions based on that worst assumption which again is actually based on faulty speculation.

Tests could have slowed down for n number of reasons.
Dont you think its unfair to just blast the govt and accuse them of GUBO to khan without any concrete evidence whatsoever ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 15 Jan 2016 05:43

nirav wrote:First you speculate on reasons for slowed testing. Then you go on to assume the worst and make conclusions based on that worst assumption which again is actually based on faulty speculation.

As a complete diversion I discovered that the act of circular reasoning where a premise is made and a conclusion reached which is the same as the premise has the name: "petitio principii"

..just sayin

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 15 Jan 2016 05:54

Nag missile hits bull’s eye with modified seeker
The indigenously-built third generation, fire-and-forget anti-tank missile, Nag, scored a “bull’s eye” and successfully hit the target 4 km away during a night trial in the Mahajan Field Firing Range, Rajasthan, last week.

During the test, the Thermal Target System (TTS) developed by a defence laboratory at Jodhpur was used as target for the missile, which is in the final user configuration. TTS simulated a target similar to an operational tank as thermal mapping from tank to TTS was carried out for generating thermal signature.

According to scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the trial validated the enhanced 4-km range capability of Imaging-Infrared seeker, which guides the missile to the target after its launch. The scientists said multi-purpose mission exercises were carried out for improving the system. With the modified seeker achieving requisite range capability, the scientists said the Nag missile was now ready for final, pre-induction user trials.

Director of Defence Research and Development Laboratory, (DRDL) K. Jayaraman said the final user trials would be conducted in different conditions in summer and winter this year. Using HEAT (High explosive anti-tank) warhead, the top-attack all-weather fire-and-forget system is capable of destroying modern tanks with armoured protection by nullifying their ERA (explosive reactive armour).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2016 06:20

we continue to persist with summer and winter trial circus wasting one year.
our country has enough places where hot , rainy and cold conditions can be found today itself.
and if cannot be found just go test it someplace like oman or south africa and finish it.
a 4km test should be feasible anywhere and does not need fancy ITR stuff. foreign defence majors routinely test bigger kit in austere camps in the arctic circle.

there is no urgency in reaching deployment status with volume production, either in the army or the supplying agency. everyone is on a BSNL kind of schedule while our enemies continue to build up and sharpen their knives and light their mashaals to set fire to our villages.

like Dileep sir was saying, working with defence PSUs means deadlines mean nothing...here is a reliable man on the outside saying it.

how fancy is this test range, a couple huts, a launch rail, perhaps a small radar to track the outbound

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Nitesh » 15 Jan 2016 06:25

Nag seems to be in perpetual trial mode. It was tested with MMW seeker before, now again with IIR seeker? Suspense now what will be the final configuration

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2016 06:27

this IIR seeker would be the ToT from sofradir got after the prior one failed some tracking test at 50c.

next move is to fail it at 60c and start the circus all over again.

in the meantime spend $2billion on kornets and spikes.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Nitesh » 15 Jan 2016 06:37

Singha saar, nope seems to be own

http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/saur ... 48587.html
SauravJha:Turning to IIR seekers, Dr Reddy what is the status of the new seeker for the Nag? Will it satisfy the Army's requirement of achieving target acquisition at a range of 4 km even in the most trying desert conditions?

Satheesh Reddy:That seeker is headed for trials this year. It can actually be used out to 6-7 kmsin better conditions.

MMW was trialed in 2011 http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techno ... 707196.ece, but it seems the idea is dropped for NAG


SauravJha: What is the MMW seeker meant for?

Satheesh Reddy: It is meant for PGMs and for the next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 15 Jan 2016 07:07

Nitesh wrote:Nag seems to be in perpetual trial mode. It was tested with MMW seeker before, now again with IIR seeker? Suspense now what will be the final configuration

When trials stop we get into anxiety mode an say US has stopped us from testing missiles.

As an aside - what is "final configuration"? Constant change and upgradation is the only final configuration

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Nitesh » 15 Jan 2016 08:04

shiv wrote:When trials stop we get into anxiety mode an say US has stopped us from testing missiles.

As an aside - what is "final configuration"? Constant change and upgradation is the only final configuration

Shiv ji I am not one complaining, if you see the link posted from 2011 and 2015

from 2011
Deliverable version

The production of the third generation hit-to-kill Nag missile is expected to commence after the final user trials with deliverable version of missile carrier NAMICA are conducted next summer. Modifications and improvements have been carried out in NAMICA as per the Army's requirements.


from 2015
Director of Defence Research and Development Laboratory, (DRDL) K. Jayaraman said the final user trials would be conducted in different conditions in summer and winter this year. Using HEAT (High explosive anti-tank) warhead, the top-attack all-weather fire-and-forget system is capable of destroying modern tanks with armoured protection by nullifying their ERA (explosive reactive armour).


This program is going on from a long time, and still the orders are not executed (443 missiles and 12 namica), I was merely pointing towards that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 15 Jan 2016 08:41

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/antitank-nag-missile-hits-the-bulls-eye-with-modified-seeker/article8108883.ece

Nag missile hits bull’s eye with modified seeker
Y. MALLIKARJUN
COMMENT · PRINT · T T
Pin It 2
According to DRDO scientists, the trial validated the enhanced
4-km range of the imaging-infrared seeker, which guides the
missile to the target after launch. File Photo
According to DRDO scientists, the trial validated the enhanced 4-km range of the imaging-infrared seeker, which guides the missile to the target after launch. File Photo
The indigenously-built third generation, fire-and-forget anti-tank missile, Nag, scored a “bull’s eye” and successfully hit the target 4 km away during a night trial in the Mahajan Field Firing Range, Rajasthan, last week.

During the test, the Thermal Target System (TTS) developed by a defence laboratory at Jodhpur was used as target for the missile, which is in the final user configuration. TTS simulated a target similar to an operational tank as thermal mapping from tank to TTS was carried out for generating thermal signature.

According to scientists of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the trial validated the enhanced 4-km range capability of Imaging-Infrared seeker, which guides the missile to the target after its launch. The scientists said multi-purpose mission exercises were carried out for improving the system. With the modified seeker achieving requisite range capability, the scientists said the Nag missile was now ready for final, pre-induction user trials.

Director of Defence Research and Development Laboratory, (DRDL) K. Jayaraman said the final user trials would be conducted in different conditions in summer and winter this year. Using HEAT (High explosive anti-tank) warhead, the top-attack all-weather fire-and-forget system is capable of destroying modern tanks with armoured protection by nullifying their ERA (explosive reactive armour).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Hobbes » 15 Jan 2016 10:25

^^^^^
The critical test for the new seeker will be in summer, when the old seeker was range-limited to 2.7 km in the daytime, which the Army found unacceptable. The hope is that the new seeker will overcome that issue.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 15 Jan 2016 10:28

Don't worry. Even if seeker passes summer tests, fault can always be found:

1) Namica's water-fording capability
2) We don't have a place in the Orbat for Namica
3) Missile is too heavy

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Nitesh » 15 Jan 2016 10:33

Isn't Namica faults which ere discovered recently have been corrected already?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Jan 2016 10:47

wiser heads would have mounted it on a trainable box8 launcher on 4x4 stallion or mraps and worked it out to deploy anywhere. we have naval cannons bolted to flatbed trucks in syria

but its more impirtant to spend the whole capex on t90

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 15 Jan 2016 13:07

Great news. Hope it passes Summer tests also. 4-5 months wait is there for that.

But, when we can get malai by purchasing bhaalaa from Khan why take snake from snake charmers nation?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 15 Jan 2016 14:19

Singha wrote:this IIR seeker would be the ToT from sofradir got after the prior one failed some tracking test at 50c.


In November 2011, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) had produced the infrared imaging seekers using the technology developed by DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2016 14:27

Again, the seeker is from DRDO. The IR detector, which is but one component of the seeker (albeit the heart, of it) is from Sofradir.
The seeker has an optical assembly to get the photons, a gimbal assembly to maneuver the optics even at speed and G, a cooling system for the IR detector, the IR detector, image detection and processing computer, plus the power source. Its fairly complex and to make it compact is a challenge.
As DRDO noted in a recent study, the foreign vendors sell you their detectors, but will not tell you how to best use them, model their performance pros/cons, resolve integration issues etc. This in a way, allows them to provide you tech and generate sales but retain an advantage for their home team.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2016 15:10

Singha wrote:this IIR seeker would be the ToT from sofradir got after the prior one failed some tracking test at 50c.

next move is to fail it at 60c and start the circus all over again.

in the meantime spend $2billion on kornets and spikes.


we don't have either kornets or spikes.. one way or other Nag will come.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Jan 2016 15:22

Singha wrote:we continue to persist with summer and winter trial circus wasting one year.
our country has enough places where hot , rainy and cold conditions can be found today itself.
and if cannot be found just go test it someplace like oman or south africa and finish it.
a 4km test should be feasible anywhere and does not need fancy ITR stuff. foreign defence majors routinely test bigger kit in austere camps in the arctic circle.

there is no urgency in reaching deployment status with volume production, either in the army or the supplying agency. everyone is on a BSNL kind of schedule while our enemies continue to build up and sharpen their knives and light their mashaals to set fire to our villages.

like Dileep sir was saying, working with defence PSUs means deadlines mean nothing...here is a reliable man on the outside saying it.


I'd rather have indian equipment tested to the last screw and then enter production with 90% of teh niggles worked out rather than deploying the kind of half baked stuff we import and which then fails.

parrikar saar was in Russia trying to get our R77s fixed. that's like 2000 missile stock IIRC.

irrespective of what one person says or doesn't, fact is that trials have to be scheduled taking into account hundred different suppliers all of whom develop different items of kit many for the first time.

our trials are so rigorous that by the time items enter service most of the issues with suppliers, with various design challenges and all have mostly been worked out.

and then its rewarded with orders. we have now got 9 regiments of pinaka planned for induction. similar process of non stop trials..

yes, its time consuming and prone to delays but better than rapidly rushing trials and failing.

i just spoke the other day to a design and procurement officer for a certain service, by coincidence mostly, and he mentioned the amount of effort MOD/DRDO have to put into indigenization and how pvt involvement had been done with minimal fuss to avoid the finger pointing common in the St's era.

with private involvement gradually replacing OFB type laggards even our trials will speed up as many mfg flaws and assembly issues will be tackled faster.

and he was certain that most indian ships, tanks, aircraft etc enter service after far more comprehensive trials than anyone else does outside.

i for one no longer worry about the protracted and thorough test process we have - yes, it should be fair & it should not be used as a delay tactic to import junk (eg T-90 vs Arjun). but if it gives you tested, proven, working stuff thats a net win for India and Indian industry perception.

recent AC Raha said so for extended trials for a recent local induction - he said tested so much we are impressed with its reliability.
that's what we need.

far too many reports of white elephant imports. lets the desi gear be rugged and work well having been tested thoroughly.

what we need is to scale up the resources for more trials and faster development. more scientists and more mfg agencies willing to work with them.

the new DPP should help there.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 15 Jan 2016 21:02

^^^

To add:
  • Viable orders (ROI)
  • Lifecycle Management - long-term parts supply contracts and inventory
  • Better after sales support
  • Iterative Product Enhancement

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Hobbes » 16 Jan 2016 06:40

Karan M wrote:
Singha wrote:this IIR seeker would be the ToT from sofradir got after the prior one failed some tracking test at 50c.

next move is to fail it at 60c and start the circus all over again.

in the meantime spend $2billion on kornets and spikes.


we don't have either kornets or spikes.. one way or other Nag will come.

As per Wikipedia the Indian Army is reported to have around 3000 Kornets.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 16 Jan 2016 06:58

Gyan wrote:Barak-8 has already got USD 3 Billion confirmed orders prior to any tests, and with no Real ToT, while our Nag languishes and no clarity on large scale orders for Astra.

Because IAI/Rafale have strong background of delivering superior products under budget and in timely manner. Three billion is a bargain compared to how much Europeans have spent on Aster or how much it would cost to procure ESSM/SM-2 from US.

Hobbes wrote:From what I've read the Barak-8 delay was due to the DRDO's delay in developing the dual pulse motor.

Posting this in Missile & Munitions thread, Yes but Rafael would have been to help with that but as i said earlier most of resources were tied up with Iron Dome.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 16 Jan 2016 07:23

The Barak 8 has no direct US counterpart the european aster/ Aster+ is available now with enhancements a decade out but would have been substantially higher in cost and would have most likely not given similar co-development opportunities. The SM2 is not longer produced with the production having shifted to the SM6 which is an extra-long range weapon (With now a demonstrated ABM capability with the DI version), while the ESSM is on the lower end although the upcoming block adds some performance. SM6 is quite an affordable ($3-$3.5 Million a shot) weapon for its performance thanks to the rate production and a large order which will peak at 125 interceptors a year (is at 113 per year at the moment) with 1800 interceptor orders to fulfill. With the deal for the B-8 it was the entire package, that includes the radar and the interceptor...there are very few companies around the world that will work on a project like this and even fewer that would meet your demands for local involvement. By most accounts it looks like an extremely impressive partnership to field a radar-weapon combination through a JV. The more I look at the system the more I begin to doubt the long term need for the S400.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2016 14:38

Hobbes wrote:As per Wikipedia the Indian Army is reported to have around 3000 Kornets.


And that is why you shouldn't take everything written in Wikipedia as accurate.

Kornets were planned for acquisition post Kargil. Many reports said they would be, could be etc. Yet to see them in IA use.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Jan 2016 14:41

Hobbes wrote:From what I've read the Barak-8 delay was due to the DRDO's delay in developing the dual pulse motor.


No... The delay was due to multiple issues not just one, though the dual pulse motor arguably was the last holdout..
IAI-ELta's issues with the radar, IAI'-DRDLs issues with the servocontrol mechanism (DRDL later resolved it) and DRDL's issues with the dual-pulse motor.
Also, IAI itself was running multiple programs and it took some Indian pressure to have Barak-8 accorded prioritization, which occurred only after the Israelis finished their Iron Dome and other programs.


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