Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29350 » 04 Mar 2016 07:52

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyd ... 309735.ece

India and its scientists have the ability and the power to tackle any eventuality, including warfare, with guided missiles that could go from land-to-land, land-to-air and sea-to-air, said Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister G. Satheesh Reddy.

At the Council of Scientific and Industrial Rearch-National Geophysical Research Institute (CSIR-NGRI) here on Thursday, he said the country was second to none in its capabilities, during his Science Day lecture on ‘Missile Technologies’.

In what was clearly a fascinating journey, Mr. Satheesh outlined the country’s achievements, right upto Agni V, including the Nirbhay Mission - the Indian version of the Tomahawk missle with real-time embedded systems the size of a chip, like in the Brahmos. The successful launch of the Agni V had propelled India into its rightful place of prominence in the Inter-Continential Ballistic Missile space, he said.

The Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System used in missiles and tracking systems today was best-in-class, he said. The onboard computing system and tracking systems today were close to being just a small chip, with 925 pins and 65 nano-metres, the scientist told an audience comprising NGRI Director S. Chandrasekhar and Chief Scientist Shakeel Ahmed.

The scientist spoke of control actuation systems that included electro-pneumatic, electro-hydraulic, electro-mechanical versions and recalled how he was present at a half-a-dozen launches of the Prithvi missile and its advanced version Dhanush, that could be launched from a ship and came with a range of 350 miles. Radio-frequency seekers today had no antennae but only smart skins, he said, adding that electro-optical, infrared seekers were being used in the Nag anti-tank missile helped it hit the target.

School students listen

The eminent scientist had the rapt attention of school students in the audience when he spoke of how the Defence Research and Development Organisation was working on a two-layer ballistic system that could track an oncoming missile from the exo-atmosphere (40 km height and above) and endo-atmosphere (20 km) with a velocity of something like 2.5 km per second.

India could, in just two years, boast of an avionics system on a single module that could be embedded on a chip, he said, adding that considerable work was going on bio-sensors with which sea turtles moved and birds that flew from one continent to the other. “It is fascinating to note that sea turtles swim upto Wheeler Island around March/April, lay eggs and come back after a year to the exact location and likewise the birds that flew long distance and reached their destination with pin-point precision,” Mr. Satheesh Reddy said.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prashanth » 04 Mar 2016 08:29

sivaramn wrote:The Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System used in missiles and tracking systems today was best-in-class, he said. The onboard computing system and tracking systems today were close to being just a small chip, with 925 pins and 65 nano-metres, the scientist told an audience comprising NGRI Director S. Chandrasekhar and Chief Scientist Shakeel Ahmed.


Mr. Reddy must have meant Inertial Navigation System, but IRNSS is mentioned here. 65 nanometers is the technology node used in the chip. Since India doesn't yet have 65 nm node capability they must have outsourced fabrication to some foundry elsewhere. Not good in the long run, IMO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 04 Mar 2016 09:12

A defence scientist said this manoeuvrable missile having an innovative system of interlacing in three dimensions can also cruise at hypersonic speed. This exceptional feature of the weapon system makes it difficult to be tracked easily and destroyed by any anti-ballistic missile defence systems. The missile has a high accuracy of near-zero circular error probable.

Brahmashira Container! God bless the first striker.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 04 Mar 2016 11:10

Indian firm to partner Israel for anti-tank missiles - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu
Rafael of Israel and Kalyani group are setting up a joint venture (JV), Kalyani Rafael Advanced Systems, to build weapon systems in India. It could start with the production of Spike Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM) which the Indian Army is in the process of procuring.

However the final deal for Spike is yet to be cleared and contract negotiations are currently underway. The deal which was cleared in 2014 ran into trouble but informed sources said that the issues have been sorted and negotiations will be completed soon without giving a time frame. Sources said the deal is on the top of the agenda during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Israel later this year. Under a tripartite agreement the JV is expected to manufacture sub-assemblies and Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) will do electro optics and do hot integration at its Hyderabad facility which currently manufactures French Milan ATGMs.

Make in India policy

The work on the facility has already commenced. It is all about when the final contract is signed, according to a source. As reported by The Hindu earlier the unit will be set up in the hardware technology park in Hyderabad. Conforming to Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) norms in defence the Kalyani group will hold 51 percent stake with Rafael holding the rest.

“The initiative is in line with the government’s ‘Make in India’ policy and will enable the development and production of high end technology systems within the country,” Rafael said in a statement.

The Rs.3,200 crore deal for the ATGMs was cleared in 2014 by the Defence Acquisition Council chaired by Defence Minister Arun Jaitley which put an end to uncertainty after the U.S. offer of joint production of Javelin missiles. The deal includes 8,000 plus missiles, 300 plus launchers and requisite technology transfer to the Indian entity which was initially supposed to be BDL. Spike is a third generation, fire and forget anti-tank missile.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 04 Mar 2016 13:33

K-4 Missile Set for 'Secret' Test

BALASORE: India is all set to test fire its longest range secret undersea missile, code named K-4, which is capable of delivering nuclear warhead at 3,500 km away. The test is planned to be conducted from a submerged platform in the Bay of Bengal between March 7 and 8. Defence sources on Thursday said preparation was on in full swing for the scheduled test.

While the tracking systems have already been shifted from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) and two Naval ships taken to the area of mission, another one is likely to be moved to the point of impact to record the terminal events and splashdown.

Image

This test would be conducted from a submerged pontoon, replica of a submarine, positioned nearly 30 feet deep in the sea. The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), which has developed the missile, had kept the project secret till its first test in March, 2014.
While the missile’s first test was for a range of 3,000 km, this time the scientists are reportedly trying for its full operational range of 3,500 km. The missile, world’s best in this class, will have to undergo two more developmental trials before being fired from the indigenously developed submarine INS Arihant next year.

A defence scientist said this manoeuvrable missile having an innovative system of interlacing in three dimensions can also cruise at hypersonic speed. This exceptional feature of the weapon system makes it difficult to be tracked easily and destroyed by any anti-ballistic missile defence systems. The missile has a high accuracy of near-zero circular error probable.

The intermediate range submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM) is about 12 metres tall with a diameter of 1.3 metres. It weighs around 17 tonnes and can carry a warhead weighing upto 2,000 kg. The missile is powered by solid rocket propellant.

India has so far planned three missiles in the K-series. While the 700-km range K-15, renamed as B-05 (launched 10 times) and 3,500-km range K-4 have been developed, the K-5 will have a striking capability of over 5,000 km. All the K-series missiles are faster, lighter and stealthier.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 04 Mar 2016 13:50

So, 3500km with a whopping 2 ton warhead! Damn, this is v.close to ICBM class.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29350 » 04 Mar 2016 15:05

prashanth wrote:65 nanometers is the technology node used in the chip. Since India doesn't yet have 65 nm node capability they must have outsourced fabrication to some foundry elsewhere. Not good in the long run, IMO.


Well, that puzzled me too. Unless they built a custom foundry without bothering about yield efficiency. SCL is at 180nm?


http://www.isro.gov.in/processor-launch ... n-facility

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prashanth » 04 Mar 2016 15:36

sivaramn wrote:Well, that puzzled me too. Unless they built a custom foundry without bothering about yield efficiency. SCL is at 180nm?


It is very unlikely that the chips are manufactured in India. Yield aside, these devices have to be reliable enough to perform under extreme conditions, which calls for highly optimized fab process.
Moreover, the 65 nm itself looks puzzling to me. Normally, these space grade chips need to be radiation resistant, and commonly use older technology nodes, 100 nm or beyond. Still, it they have confidence of using a 65 nm node chip, it is an interesting development.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby adityadange » 04 Mar 2016 15:55

In my opinion k4 true range is 4000km instead of 3500. else why would they name it k4? they could easily call it k-35 isnt it?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neela » 04 Mar 2016 16:08

From the K4 news above
A defence scientist said this manoeuvrable missile having an innovative system of interlacing in three dimensions can also cruise at hypersonic speed.


What is interlacing in 3D?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 04 Mar 2016 16:23

Neela wrote:From the K4 news above
A defence scientist said this manoeuvrable missile having an innovative system of interlacing in three dimensions can also cruise at hypersonic speed.


What is interlacing in 3D?

Earlier reports had said that K4 follows a 'twisting path' to its target which makes it difficult to be shot down. Is that interlacing in 3D?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 04 Mar 2016 17:47

I think now that the launch platform (Arihant) has validated the K15 (K4 reports were probably bogus), the rest of the K-series is being brought out from cold storage to be on time for Aridhaman.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 04 Mar 2016 19:47

Supratik wrote:I think now that the launch platform (Arihant) has validated the K15 (K4 reports were probably bogus), the rest of the K-series is being brought out from cold storage to be on time for Aridhaman.


Public reports of Arihant being ready for operational role requires that India be public about tests of K4 from it to full range. That's the only way to declare we've the triad!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2016 20:03

Neela wrote:From the K4 news above
A defence scientist said this manoeuvrable missile having an innovative system of interlacing in three dimensions can also cruise at hypersonic speed.


What is interlacing in 3D?


Ability to move in all 3D in flight trajectory , in this case the ability to gain height after re-entering atmosphere besides horizontal and laterally post re-entry making it difficult for ABM to calculate an optimum intercept point and making it impossible to do so.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nirav » 04 Mar 2016 20:16

nirav wrote:
Lack of info in this case doesn't necessarily mean lack of action.


:mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neela » 04 Mar 2016 21:00

Austin wrote:
What is interlacing in 3D?


Ability to move in all 3D in flight trajectory , in this case the ability to gain height after re-entering atmosphere besides horizontal and laterally post re-entry making it difficult for ABM to calculate an optimum intercept point and making it impossible to do so.[/quote]

So this seems to be enhancement to the Ballistic Glide RV correct?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby RoyG » 04 Mar 2016 21:21

1.3 meter diameter + 12 meter length + 2 ton warhead = Polaris missile on crack.

Highly doubt the max range unless it has been adjusted for carrying conservative warhead design (3 FBF ; 150-200 kt).

This is China specific for sure. We have Pakistan covered with Prithvi + Shaurya + Agni I + Mirage 2000. Prithvi will probably be phased out gradually.

Agni V + Sea based deterrent for China. Agni II + Agni III will probably be phased out gradually.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 04 Mar 2016 22:01

I doubt the figures that are being thrown about. Its like A-2 is 2k km and so A-3 is 3k km type spec. First why would anyone even put a 1.3 m missiles in a 2.0 m silo?? It makes no sense and is a waste of space. if its a 1 m missile then you can pack 2 per silo. It has to be a 2m dia missile with a range of at least 4 K km.

About pakistan Brahmos, Pinaka-II and Prahaar are sufficient.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2016 22:06

Launcher bumper pads for depth charge shock.

More important K5 news.

3D interlacing is twisting trajectory for short range targets. Kind of energy wasting move.

2 tonne payload is new.

Sketch looks like a nose fairing.

I don't like the sharp ogive.
More for shallow launches.

tsarkar?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 05 Mar 2016 03:45

blunt ogive reserved for mirvs?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramdas » 05 Mar 2016 04:41

@nirav:

A news item predicting an upcoming test is not action. Will believe it when there really is such a test. Hope a couple of K-4 and a couple of A-V tests happen over the next few months. And a K-4 launch from INS Arihant happens soon thereafter. That will show that GoI means business.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2016 04:46

Underwater travel from deep.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2016 08:12

that ogive looks sharper than the more penile blunt ones on 'proper' icbm like the le terrible M51
its probably a drawing with a single warhead. what gets tested/deployed may differ later when we proof the MIRV with A5 first probably.
it will probably have the aeroplate and aerospike from then on, now the sharp cone may obviate that.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2016 08:13

notice the composite grainy plastic texture of all stages above. a must have for efficient weight fraction.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 05 Mar 2016 08:22

ramana wrote:2 tonne payload is new.

Ramana 2 tonne + 1.3 meter diameter gives a lot of leeway for some big bum designs of varying types.

Pu core can rarely be more than 10 cm diameter overall - so 130 cm is plenty of space for other things

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 05 Mar 2016 08:38

but tell me, after announcing the tests, what is secret about it? :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28437 » 05 Mar 2016 08:55

What is crucial is that all the design IP (especially the RS channel for Mil applications) originates and stays
in India. Local manufacturing as I pointed out in another thread is happening at 180nm. Not exactly state of the
art but more than enough for design validation and field deployment in non low power scenarios.

Lower geom. fabs in India will come when there is demand. Demand means, designs done in India that need a fab, not
200 mill mobile phones assembled in India ! So it makes sense to outsource fabrication till demand picks up to justify
local fabs. Focusing on lower geometry local fabs is at best a distraction.

For IRNSS, key is tracking accuracy under difficult conditions. If I get all the accuracy I need, then moving to a lower geom. process is not a big issue.

prashanth wrote:
sivaramn wrote:The Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System used in missiles and tracking systems today was best-in-class, he said. The onboard computing system and tracking systems today were close to being just a small chip, with 925 pins and 65 nano-metres, the scientist told an audience comprising NGRI Director S. Chandrasekhar and Chief Scientist Shakeel Ahmed.


Mr. Reddy must have meant Inertial Navigation System, but IRNSS is mentioned here. 65 nanometers is the technology node used in the chip. Since India doesn't yet have 65 nm node capability they must have outsourced fabrication to some foundry elsewhere. Not good in the long run, IMO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya G » 05 Mar 2016 13:22

NOTAM for the next test ... @700 clicks.

Image

From Chinese poster Shipone.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nirav » 05 Mar 2016 13:28

It had to be DDM,yet again.
If they reported it, how would it be a secret test !?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2016 14:27

Why are people referring to some generic graphic as the real deal, when Saraswat noted the real image of the K4, in his presentation at IIT some 2 years back?

Image
Last edited by ramana on 05 Mar 2016 22:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2016 14:29

sivaramn wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyderabad/india-fully-prepared-for-warfare-satheesh-reddy/article8309735.ece

India and its scientists have the ability and the power to tackle any eventuality, including warfare, with guided missiles that could go from land-to-land, land-to-air and sea-to-air, said Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister G. Satheesh Reddy.


So the range of PGMs and missiles for tactical applications. Those need to be the focus, not just Agnis etc. So far only Akash is in service.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 05 Mar 2016 14:31

In fact I had already posted on the K-4 before in response to the same query from Ramana in June 2014.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6806&hilit=itse&start=2560

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2016 14:38

Soothing saar very soothing...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vishvak » 05 Mar 2016 14:52

Not exactly state of the
art but more than enough for design validation and field deployment in non low power scenarios.

+100. OT here, ut related. Long time ago I had read that simple PC level chips can be arranged (QCDSP/QCDOC and such architecture) in such way to get processor speeds as high as low level super computers. That would obviously need supercomputer level power requirements basically.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 05 Mar 2016 16:21

so for each rv about ~500k in the cap that shivji may chase after. pliss note range = 6k [is then K5?].
also the 3 stages in the dig not clear. [perhaps it is one of those 5th tech doing rounds in the 4th casings]
Last edited by SaiK on 05 Mar 2016 16:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 05 Mar 2016 16:23

Aditya G wrote:NOTAM for the next test ... @700 clicks.

Image

From Chinese poster Shipone.


Nirbhay (?) launch sometime between 7 and 9 March from ITR:

INDIA EAST COAST – BAY OF BENGAL (.) CHARTS 31 353 354 INT 71 (.) LAUNCH OF EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT VEHICLE SCHEDULED FROM ITR FROM 07-09 MAR 16 FROM 0730-1130 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 17-11.74N 083-29.07E, 19-57.95N 089-14.57E, 21-12.90N 088-26.23E, 17-27.81N 083-18.19E (.)

2. NO OVER FLIGHT AND SHIPPING PERMITTED IN DANGER ZONE

3. CANCEL THIS MSG 091230 UTC MAR 16.

021002Z/MAR


From National Hydrographic Office website:

LATEST NAVAREA VIII WARNINGS

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28880 » 05 Mar 2016 16:45

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/odisha/Agni-V-Canister-Version-Ready-to-Roar-into-Sky/2016/03/05/article3311245.ece

BALASORE: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is gearing up for the canister version test of most potent surface-to-surface Inter-continental range Ballistic Missile (ICBM) Agni-V. The longest range nuclear capable missile is likely to be test-fired from a defence test facility off the Odisha coast on March 15.

Pre-launch preparations are on at Abdul Kalam Island (formerly Wheeler Island). The test could be the missile’s last developmental trial and the outcome assumes significance as the weapon system is likely to be operationalised next year.

Sources said the DRDO has invited Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to witness the missile launch.

While Agni-V is a complex system, its test from a canister makes it even more complicated given the involvement of a variety of sophisticated and high-end tracking systems to capture data for the full operational range. Since the first test of the missile in 2012, the missile has undergone several upgradation. It has become more stable, fast reacting and agile with quick response time.

A defence scientist associated with the missile development said the new canister-launcher has been built uniquely so that the missile can respond within minutes of command. A gas generator at the bottom of the canister pushes off the missile before its first stage is ignited and missile roars into the sky.

The canister version makes any weapon system more flexible and fastens the mobility of a huge system like Agni-V. The missile also can be launched from a truck-mounted canister.

The three-stage, 17-metre tall, two-metre wide Agni-V, weighing around 50 tonnes, is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead of about 1.5 tonnes to a distance of more than 5,000 km. As it incorporates advanced technologies involving ring laser gyroscope and accelerometer for navigation and guidance, its accuracy level is far higher than its three earlier variants - Agni-I, Agni-II and Agni-III.

What makes the missile more effective and stealth is that it can be equipped with Multiple Independently Targetable Re-entry Vehicles (MITRV) capable of delivering multiple warheads at different targets at long distances. The DRDO is now working on integrating the long range missiles with MITRV capable of incorporating six to 10 warheads.

Modi ain't go there, even for the 2nd time. He was invited for the 1st canister launch also.
What cud be the major up gradation ?
one cud be more % of carbon composite and better INS for agility.
Can we expect a better solid propellant ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prashanth » 05 Mar 2016 16:57

macaque wrote:What is crucial is that all the design IP (especially the RS channel for Mil applications) originates and stays
in India.


Thanks for your reply sir. One question. How difficult/easy is it to reverse engineer the architectural level blocks from the layout level (GDS) design?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby NRao » 05 Mar 2016 20:36

macaque wrote:So it makes sense to outsource fabrication till demand picks up to justify local fabs.



prashanth wrote:
macaque wrote:What is crucial is that all the design IP (especially the RS channel for Mil applications) originates and stays
in India.


Thanks for your reply sir. One question. How difficult/easy is it to reverse engineer the architectural level blocks from the layout level (GDS) design?


Continued:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6959&p=1989189#p1989189

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudeepj » 05 Mar 2016 21:16

No activity for an year, and then a flurry of announcements/leaks of "secret tests" (K4, Agni V, the Nirbhay Notam) in two weeks. One might be forgiven if one thinks that a message is being sent to the Barak HUSSEIN Obama administration that F16 supply will have consequences.

Another observation, as per my memory, the Arihant SILOs are 2.6meters 3.2 meters in diameter, while the K4 missile is shown as being 1.3 meters in diameter. Ergo, I think, Arihant can carry 8 K4 missiles, not 4.

*Added Later*: If the K15 diameter is 0.75 meters, and three of those can squeeze in a silo, that means a minimum silo diameter of 3.2 meters. (http://math.stackexchange.com/questions ... ger-circle) Which means, one of Arihant silos can definitely take two K4 missiles per silo. Ergo, eight K4 missiles per Arihant.
Last edited by sudeepj on 05 Mar 2016 22:01, edited 2 times in total.


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