Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 05 Apr 2016 12:48

Kersi D wrote:
ramana wrote:
What is GDF ?



GDF is
viewforum.php[/quote]

Says Link does not exist[/quote]

Kersi, I have your email. Will contact you there and we can discuss.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 05 Apr 2016 13:56

BLR/FLR/TLR - Why aren't we using our own Vikram processors?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29190 » 05 Apr 2016 14:31

Akash on trucks as they are going to Pivot & Holding corps.

For strike corps or mechanised forces, they will be on tracked vehicle.

So IA is planning a large scale induction of Akash. Not just Strike, but holding corps will now have air cover....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rupak » 05 Apr 2016 18:41

srai wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:Guys I would love to do a analysis of where the these IAF Sqdns would be stationed. But purely wiki analysis of logical areas, no classified info or chaiwalla please. We know the first two are at Pune and Gwalior.


A good analysis of Indian SAM Network is here (2010). Good starting point since Akash would most likely fill in the void left by retiring Pechoras.

IMINT & Analysis: The Indian SAM Network

24 Pechora Squadrons deployments shown below. Note there are no deployment in the NorthEast!

Likely Akash Squadrons (2 + 6 + 7) deployments ... following Su-30MKI bases:

[/list]


Currently there are three IAF Sqns operational:
2401 Gwalior
2402 Pune
2403 Ambala

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kartik » 06 Apr 2016 01:46

From AW subscription


India To Begin Flight Trials Of Anti-Radiation Missile

Aerospace Daily & Defense Report Mar 03, 2016

Jay Menon

NEW DELHI — India will begin flight trials of its advanced Anti-Radiation Missile (ARM) within the next two months.

The captive flight trials of the indigenously developed air-to-surface ARM will take place in April or May. At that time, “scientists will evaluate the performance of the seeker, navigation and control system, structural capability and aerodynamic vibrations,” an India Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) official says.

These will be followed by ground testing and the first free flight test by year’s end, he says.

Developed by DRDO, the tactical missile has a range of 100 km (62 mi.) to 125 km and will pick up radiation or signals of radars and communication facilities onto the targets to destroy them.

“Equipped with a dual pulse propulsion system, the missile is expected to have extensive engagement capability when compared to other missiles,” the official says.

The missile will be mounted on Sukhoi Su-30 and Tejas Light Combat Aircraft for the actual flight trials. It will be inducted after a number of development trials in the next two years, the official adds.


Only a handful of countries such as the U.S. and Germany currently possess the ARM with the capability to detect and attack a radar antenna or transmitter with minimal aircrew input. The ARM in use by the U.S. Air Force moves at the speed of more than Mach 2, propelled by a smokeless solid-propellant rocket motor.

Last year, a Long Range Surface-To-Air Missile (LR-SAM) jointly developed by India and Israel was successfully test-fired from INS Kolkata. Its induction will begin in September or October of this year.

Other projects being undertaken by the DRDO include the Astra air-to-air ballistic missile, which was successfully test-fired from a Su-30MKI fighter last May. The missile is expected to be completed by next December.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby chaitanya » 06 Apr 2016 01:52

Kartik wrote:From AW subscription

Other projects being undertaken by the DRDO include the Astra air-to-air ballistic missile :eek: :eek: :eek: :lol: , which was successfully test-fired from a Su-30MKI fighter last May. The missile is expected to be completed by next December.


wow now thats a new one!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 09:33

Looks like 2nd Part of the interview with Sudhir Mishra Brahmos CEO

BRAHMOS will soon achieve 90-degree Steep Dive capability: Sudhir Mishra


http://brahmand.com/news/BRAHMOS-will-s ... /1/10.html

NEW DELHI: India's BRAHMOS supersonic cruise missile, developed with Russia, is gearing up to achieve a 90-degree steep dive capability that could be a game-changer, BrahMos Aerospace Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director Sudhir Kumar Mishra said in an exclusive chat with Arming India here.

At present, BRAHMOS missile has demonstrated a 70-degree steep dive attack capability to target enemy positions behind a mountainous terrain. A missile regiment with such a capability has already been approved for the Indian Army and orders placed with BrahMos Aerospace.

The 90-degree steep dive capability, once achieved, would provide India greater strike rate to target enemy assets at the full 290-km range, and directly overhead. What's been left unsaid is that this capability enables BRAHMOS to be used as a carrier-killer, if need be.

EXCERPTS FROM THE INTERVIEW

Tell us more about the steep dive BRAHMOS, which, you were saying, is not just the steep dive variant?


In May 2015, we conducted the flight test of BRAHMOS land-to-land version. The range was more than 250 km. As you know, we don't have such a long test range available on our main land. Earlier, we used to do the flight tests from Balasore towards any point in the sea, and by the help of software and telemetry system, we could know that the missile has hit that particular point.

But for the Army, they were talking about a precision hit. They wanted to see if we have a target, then where the missile will go and hit it. For that purpose, we wanted a longer test range, which is not available anywhere on the main land. There are limitations in Pokhran (test range in Rajasthan desert) too.

So we did the test in the Bay of Bengal from the Andaman's and we conducted the flight tests. The land-attack missile was launched and hit the target, like a "bull's eye" well within five meters of range. This test also validated several other features of our missile. The very first feature was 'Way Point' and we took deviations in missile's path at pre-determined points to avoid populated areas and reach the designated target. We achieved that capability. 'Way Point' means the missile had taken an alternative route by avoiding the populated areas. Two way points were taken during the May 2015 tests.

The missile followed a "text-book trajectory" and hit the target with pin-point accuracy. This was the weapon's number two capability.

The third was that we lifted the missile from the mainland, from Northern Command, right up to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. This proved that our missile system can be carried by an aircraft and can be deployed at a very short notice. That capability was also proved.

Apart from that, the missile test was conducted by the users, the Army. We took part just as spectators and didn't even tell them how and what to do. We were only present there. The test firing was conducted completely by the Indian Army's Artillery Division in the presence of all of their senior officers.

It was a moment of great achievement for BrahMos Aerospace and DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) that our designed missile could achieve the target. For the Army, the range makes a lot of difference, because ours is a conventional, tactical missile. It should be able to pin-point and take on the target, be it a rail bridge or Road Bridge or a house in a crowded locality or an enemy hidden behind the mountainous region.

So you want to take on the target very precisely and as of now, we don't see the armed forces having any missile system other than the BRAHMOS with such fine prowess. We proved that to our users and also gave a lot of confidence to the armed forces that by using the BRAHMOS system, they can defend the Nation, protect its safety and sovereignty. It is a milestone, a technological achievement. With this test, we proved what we have been telling them -- that this missile can go a long distance (of its full range) and hit the target.

The steep dive is a sharp maneuver in a mountainous region and it can go over to the shadow area of a mountain to take out that target, practically a top-down attack. Is that the right understanding of what this missile can achieve?

Yes, you are correct. One thing is, any cruise missile is very efficient and effective if you take on a target parallel to the ground or sea. But by going at supersonic cruise mode and then doing such a maneuver of taking on the target from the top is technologically very challenging.

BRAHMOS is also a very potent weapon with the services, because the enemy won't know until the last moment that a missile is approaching. You have to make several changes in the software, control and guidance scheme and then tune the seeker in such a manner that it can achieve that capability. The guidance system also has to be very precise. There are so many redundancies in our guidance system - right from the INS, GPS, GLONASS and GAGAN. We made a provision for IRNSS too, which is going to be our Indian navigation system. So, it is a very satisfying machine as far as engineering is concerned.

Is it real time guidance, as if you spot a target, it will be guided to it?


Yes, you are right. It is a real time guidance by network centricity.

Is this not there in the other variants of BRAHMOS?


It is the users who decide what mission they want. This was the specific requirement of the Indian Army, which we have provided to them. Missile is nothing but software entity and to meet the software and physical requirements, you plug in various sub-systems. For ships, they usually say that if it is in horizontal mode, it meets the requirement. But for land, it sometimes requires to go in a cruise mode and hit the target in horizontal or vertical steep dive mode, or even have surround capability, which means it is able to go around the hill and hit the target. We are also working on this surround capability. In fact, our next target is to develop this near vertical and surround capability for the missile. It all depends on the missile. We would like to achieve this near vertical capability which will provide a different kind of capability to the users. We have achieved up to 70 degrees of steep-dive angle. Soon, we intend to have up to 90-degree steep-dive angle. It will be very effective once we achieve this near vertical capability for our weapon.

This would be the longest range conventional weapon with the Army and an artillery weapon. It actually enhances the conventional range limitations of the Army, as it is usually said that the Army only tackles a 40-km range and this new range will change the concept completely.

As a scientist, my aspiration and objective is to meet the user's requirements. Today, if the Army says they want 200- or 300-km, we provide that to them. Tomorrow, if they say 500-km, we will provide that. If they say 1,000-km, we can provide that too. As DRDO scientist, our job is to provide the capability to our users. It is for the Army, Navy and Air Force to make their own plan and we just plug into that. As scientists, our philosophy and objective is to provide the technological competence and muscle to the users. They said they wanted up to 300-km and we provided that to them.

There is also Russia in this project and there are MTCR (Missile Technology Control Regime) limitations, so we understand the 290-km range.

When we talk about the future of BRAHMOS, what are the possibilities?


If your question is on scientific lines, then certainly we would like to provide more capabilities. We would like to go for different versions of the same missile. But about the range, we would like to strictly adhere to MTCR guidelines and all international treaties. India is having such an engineering capability that we don't foresee any problems in meeting any aspiration of the users.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 09:39

India developing seekers for BRAHMOS, other missiles: Sudhir Mishra
Read More:
http://brahmand.com/news/India-developi ... /1/10.html

Arming India Interview: Part 2

NEW DELHI: India is developing its own seeker technology for its missiles, with efforts from the state research and development agencies and the private sector. Once ready, this indigenous seeker technology could be integrated on the BRAHMOS supersonic cruise missile and other Indian missiles from the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) stable.

In the future, India will be able to use the indigenous seekers, on BRAHMOS too, though currently it uses the Russian seekers, BrahMos Aerospace Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director Sudhir Kumar Mishra told Arming India in an exclusive interview. A few private sector companies from India too are part of the efforts.

Mishra said it is possible for India to have the capability in the future to produce the entire BRAHMOS system indigenously. He added that India learnt canisterisation of missiles know-how from Russia under the BrahMos cooperation.

EXCERPTS FROM THE INTERVIEW

So far, we have been looking at making it supersonic. This JV has the capability to make cruise missiles, like nobody else in India. Now, could you become the production agency for other cruise missiles like what the DRDO is developing, like subsonic one?


We are willing to expand our business plan. We would like to be known as a Missile company that makes subsonic to supersonic to hypersonic missiles. There are certain limitations in the light of the India-Russia inter-governmental agreement. If the Governments feel and they carry out certain amendments to the existing inter-governmental agreement, which is the guiding force behind this very successful project, then certainly we can.

Have you made any such suggestion yet?


No, we have not. But it is a dream to make subsonic to hypersonic. We would certainly like to do that. But I am not able to answer this precisely, as there are still so many gaps and some dark areas. We are certainly trying to overcome them. Maybe in the future, I would be in a position to answer that question.

One more thing, you had asked about our future plans. We are already working on the hypersonic version. But hypersonic technologies are futuristic and are different from the existing engineering rules and laws, which may not be applicable at that speed. So we will have to come out with new engineering materials, new ruggedized electronics, different control and guidance laws, aerodynamics design, manufacturing process to meet the new material and new design requirements. These are the challenges that we face for hypersonic missile. BrahMos Aerospace, DRDO and NPOM, our Russian partner, are all working in this area.

Dr. A. P. J. Abdul Kalam gave a very motivational slogan: You can't be second or third all the time and you have to be first someday in some technology. Some time ago, INFOSYS mentor Narayana Murthy commented that in the past 60-70 years, India has not made any breakthrough in science and technology. So, in developing a hypersonic BRAHMOS, we want to break that jinx, to overcome that jinx, and become the first in the world to develop a hypersonic cruise missile. It could be the biggest scientific breakthrough for India. And it has all the potential to become one.

This hypersonic BRAHMOS missile requirement, has this been conveyed by the services?


What happens is the Services have their aspirations and the Engineers have their dreams and competence to think of the future to offer concepts, products, capabilities and competencies to the users. Both cannot imagine in a vacuum. There has to be a basis. Right now, they cannot propose something that is still on the paper. Hypersonic technology is not even on the paper. It is still in the minds of the scientists. It is still an evolving technology. The forces say, if you offer a hypersonic missile, we will take it. The day we achieve that the users will surely grab that.

You talked about the steep dive BRAHMOS which can be operated through different guidance software. How much of it is Indian?


Lots of software, all ground systems, support systems, guidance software are ours. But mission software is theirs. We are completely embedded into their software.

The seeker technology, is that Russian?


BrahMos is a joint venture and Russians hold 49.5 per cent of the equity. When we signed the inter-governmental agreement, it was agreed that the engine and the seekers are going to be the work share of Russia. Rest of the work share will be India's. Because of this reason, we are still using the seeker built by Russians. At the same time, BrahMos, DRDO and several other private companies in India have initiated work on developing a seeker. I would like to give you the names of Data-Patterns from Chennai, Alpha Design Technologies from Bangalore and ECIL. They are developing the seeker technology. DRDO is also working on this technology. In future, we will be able to use this seeker in our BRAHMOS.

There is one more factor we should consider -- the Russian side would also like to keep some business with them. If we talk about 100 per cent indigenisation, then it would not remain a joint venture. It would become a completely Indian company. It is not in the right spirit of partnership that you grab all businesses and leave your partner high and dry.

When the Indian entities develop the seeker, would you be able to use this India-made seeker? In the given format, will you be able to use it?


Maybe in 2-3 years. They are now developing it. Russians have agreed that if the design and development cost of the seeker by the Indian companies is low, they will also take it. Now, the business is commercial in nature. The world has moved away from ownership to economic benefits.

Do these companies have a Russian collaboration?


They are developing in collaboration with DRDO and BrahMos.

The seeker technology indigenisation, please tell us more about it. Did you approach the Indian companies or they did it suo moto?


We adopted two approaches. First, we gave a contract to ECIL and Data Patterns for the new kind of RF SCAN seekers and they are working along with DRDO to do the design, development and testing. Under the second approach, Data Patterns and Alpha Design, both said that they can undertake development of RF Mono Pulse seeker in 'No Cost, No Commitment' model and if they develop a seeker, then I should replace the existing seeker with their seeker. These are the two models. Right now, we are using a RF Mono Pulse seeker and hence if they come up with it, we can replace the seeker today itself. But the RF SCAN seeker is futuristic.

With the seeker technology, BrahMos and DRDO are helping the Indian entities. Can this be used in other missiles also or is it specific to cruise missiles?

The seekers are used in the terminal, homing stage of the flight. So, it can be used in any kind of missiles. When you are targeting, you are using the seeker in the last 50 or 100 seconds of your flight. Whether it is BRAHMOS or any missile. So, the seeker can be used in any missile.

Will we continue to be dependent on Russia for engines for BRAHMOS?


There is no question of being dependent on Indian or Russian vendors. This is a JV and we need to give some business to Russians. As per the inter-governmental agreement, engine is the work share of the Russians and we will be using the Russian engines. We will continue to use the Russian engines. There is no harm, as we never faced any discrimination or capability degradation.

Have you learned to make the engines?


It is a matter of trust. What they get from us, they don't reopen and what we get from them, we don't reopen.

What have you learnt from this BrahMos experience that you had not as DRDO scientist?


We learned many things through this JV. The first thing I would like to tell you is the canisterised system of missiles, which were not available in India. We took up a project to indigenise and indigenously develop canister for BRAHMOS missile, and this was meant only for the BRAHMOS.

But a variant of this canister has been used in the Agni-I's canisterisation as well. That's a technological benefit from the JV. Whatever guidance system has been used in BRAHMOS is also being used in other missile systems. We have created a manufacturing capability in the country and this eco-system is able to support other missiles too. BrahMos is the first unique JV in which we designed and developed a whole weapon system - a ground system, command and control, missile and other components. This experience has percolated to other DRDO projects as well. We learnt a lot from this JV project.

Will you have the capability in the future to develop and use the entire BRAHMOS system within India?


Yes, I believe in the future, one day, we will have the capability to completely manufacture BRAHMOS using Indian work share. Again, I reiterate that it will not be in the right spirit of partnership. The seeker we are developing can be used in BRAHMOS and other missile systems as well. Soon, the warhead will also get Indian work share. We have already conducted the tests and are waiting for their concurrence. Soon, I feel within a year or one-and-half years, we should be able do it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 06 Apr 2016 09:43

Essentially BS. Brahmos is still a russian missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Apr 2016 10:18

He keeos reiterating right spirit of partnersbip etc. Do the Russians think of all that when they export the all russian yakhont??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Apr 2016 10:19

But a variant of this canister has been used in the Agni-I's canisterisation as well. That's a technological benefit from the JV. Whatever guidance system has been used in BRAHMOS is also being used in other missile systems. We have created a manufacturing capability in the country and this eco-system is able to support other missiles too. BrahMos is the first unique JV in which we designed and developed a whole weapon system - a ground system, command and control, missile and other components. This experience has percolated to other DRDO projects as well. We learnt a lot from this JV project.
.........

Which in turn was derived from akash and prithvi programs. So brahmos learnt from the other programs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 10:35

Karan M wrote:He keeos reiterating right spirit of partnersbip etc. Do the Russians think of all that when they export the all russian yakhont??


Russian have the right the export Yakhont and it is GOI that is not permitting Brahmos export I had already posted Dr Pillai interview where he says GOI is not in favour of exporting Brahmos in near future. http://www.aspillai.com/news.php?nid=49

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 06 Apr 2016 10:46

The Russians have a 50yr+ history of developing missiles.The Cuban missile crisis was over 50 yrs ago. What they've learnt from the BMos JV is probable our expertise in software,etc.For hard engineering,engine,seeker,etc.,we are dependent upon them for this missile and most probably for the hyper engine too. It isn't a great problem as the West also have many JVs within their OEMs,like the Eurofarter,etc.

The most likely candidates for BMos export are Vietnam and possibly Malaysia.Vietnam to counter China's huge support for Pak's nuclear and missile capability.Other indigenous missiles that could be exported are reduced range Prithvis,Shaurya and Akash.nations threatened by China over control of the Indo-China Sea should have first peck at BMos,etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Apr 2016 11:03

>>Russian have the right the export Yakhont and it is GOI that is not permitting Brahmos export I had already posted Dr Pillai interview where he says GOI is not in favour of exporting Brahmos in near future. http://www.aspillai.com/news.php?nid=49

Missed the point completely. I said "all Russian Yakhont". The Russians care two hoots about " right spirit of partnership" whereas the gent above is busy defending not indigenizing the motor. If DRDO has a plan to do so and he cant talk about it, then he should have said right now we cant look at it. Instead of busily defending JV this, JV that. He is even concerned about putting in an Indian seeker at a point, and brings up JV. At this rate, we will be tied to Russia's apron strings forever.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 11:10

Karan M wrote:Missed the point completely. I said "all Russian Yakhont". The Russians care two hoots about " right spirit of partnership" whereas the gent above is busy defending not indigenizing the motor. If DRDO has a plan to do so and he cant talk about it, then he should have said right now we cant look at it. Instead of busily defending JV this, JV that. He is even concerned about putting in an Indian seeker at a point, and brings up JV. At this rate, we will be tied to Russia's apron strings forever.


I get your point but that part is answered by Dr Sudhir , if India were to 100 % indiginise Brahmos then there is no point in having a JV.

So either dissolve the JV , renegotiate the term and go for 100 % indiginisation or stick with JV Terms , even then we have made the Seeker and eventually make the engine.

that would be the case with any JV be it Barak-8 or Maitri program with MBDA , you wont be making 100 % of the whole product but what was agreed upon even though at some point in time there would be a capability to do so but that would be against the legal term and spirit of JV.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Apr 2016 11:14

^^ Why should we do all that? Indigenize the motor and make an Indian Brahmos equivalent over time. You are already giving them more business with Brahmos-M, Brahmos-NG. His statements are contradictory. We have a seeker program underway.. which can be used for all missiles but.. for Brahmos, we have a JV we need to give workshare to Russia... then motor, he completely states no attempt at indigenization is underway... simple question should be, is your mandate to give money to Russia or make in India? He seems to be very worried that Russia may actually stop cooperating though he says the opposite.. hence the complete defense of Russian needs. This just shows our vulnerability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 11:30

Karan M wrote:^^ Why should we do all that? Indigenize the motor and make an Indian Brahmos equivalent over time. You are already giving them more business with Brahmos-M, Brahmos-NG. His statements are contradictory. We have a seeker program underway.. which can be used for all missiles but.. for Brahmos, we have a JV we need to give workshare to Russia... then motor, he completely states no attempt at indigenization is underway... simple question should be, is your mandate to give money to Russia or make in India? He seems to be very worried that Russia may actually stop cooperating though he says the opposite.. hence the complete defense of Russian needs. This just shows our vulnerability.


In that case you renegotiate the JV terms , you cant get both ways right ? You either stick by the agreement , re-negotiate or cancel JV and go it alone , I see what Sudhir is trying to say and I also get your point.

I dont see India would do that for any JV program that is currently underway what they have inked is what they have to abide by I mean both parties , The capability if exist should be used as a backup solution just incase in future the JV does not work or India feels there is no point in continuing with this and go it alone.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Apr 2016 11:37

Why renegotiate? Focus on Brahmos-NG and Brahmos-M. Make a Brahmos equivalent locally. China just did this.

http://i59.tinypic.com/14lq541.jpg

It seems India is very afraid they "lose access" so they don't do anything. Does China behave like this? They care two hoots. They will make a Chinese J-11 and at the same time, point out to Russia they paid for SK/SM licensing. India I think is very much into "at this we can do this onlee mindset" with khadi gramudyog funding. If for instance, Sudhir saar knew there was a huge program underway at multiple places at India to make a liquid ramjet engine, then would he be bothered so much with Russia?

At this rate, if one screw fails in the motor we have to run back to Russia.
Even otherwise we only do things locally if "price is too much", i.e. $200 Million for Brahmos integration with Su-30.

This mindset of external reliance which is "Cheap" in short term is our biggest issue.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neela » 06 Apr 2016 14:00

is there a security or safety reason why Brahmos isn't shown in action in IronFist2016?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 14:10

Karan M wrote:Why renegotiate? Focus on Brahmos-NG and Brahmos-M. Make a Brahmos equivalent locally. China just did this.

http://i59.tinypic.com/14lq541.jpg

It seems India is very afraid they "lose access" so they don't do anything. Does China behave like this? They care two hoots. They will make a Chinese J-11 and at the same time, point out to Russia they paid for SK/SM licensing. India I think is very much into "at this we can do this onlee mindset" with khadi gramudyog funding. If for instance, Sudhir saar knew there was a huge program underway at multiple places at India to make a liquid ramjet engine, then would he be bothered so much with Russia?

At this rate, if one screw fails in the motor we have to run back to Russia.
Even otherwise we only do things locally if "price is too much", i.e. $200 Million for Brahmos integration with Su-30.

This mindset of external reliance which is "Cheap" in short term is our biggest issue.


Buddy , looks its not like India is afraid to do or that in this case ( when it comes to Pakistan I can agree with you :(( )

These JV agreement must be having a long list of strick Do's and Dont's formulated by MOD's and vetted by legal team on both sides , If you break it or try to subvert it there could be legal implications , more than that you would loose the trust with the other side , there is a fat license fee we pay for to OEM that we make in india stuff and we also import component that we are not suppose to make it here.

We never built even Mig-21 or Jags 100 % indiginously without paying a fat license fee , in case of Jags we even lost the IP innovation to Ba'e of over head WVR missile that we actually invented simply because the Document said so.

Forget about indiginising complicated stuff we even pay a fat lic fee to MBDA for Milan-2T ATGM that BDL has been making since 1983.

I dont expect India would be making any thing 100 % for any JV program be it Brahmos , Barak-8 or Maitri or any other program , what ever they agree they will stick to it and if they want to change both parties must agree or just walk out with what ever the terms and conditions of exit are.

As far as China goes Sudhir has mentioned this http://brahmand.com/news/BRAHMOS-can-se ... /1/10.html

Whereas, ours is a supersonic ramjet. Nobody is having this. Chinese are claiming to have it, but we know that they are not going to have it for another five to seven years. We will continue to have it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 14:11

Neela wrote:is there a security or safety reason why Brahmos isn't shown in action in IronFist2016?


I have seen them getting displayed at AI on many occasion , probably the logistics of getting it to Goa for the first time its held there

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 06 Apr 2016 14:37

Neela wrote:is there a security or safety reason why Brahmos isn't shown in action in IronFist2016?

For the same reason why they would not show a Prithvi or an Agni being launched. You can see the launch but the missile has to fly out of Rajasthan and land somewhere. I know that there are great places for missiles to land across the Rajasthan border, but that cannot be shown or seen by the guests. Iron Fist is more about showing munitions hitting targets rather than launching of munitions. The Astra launch only this year was a one-off.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 06 Apr 2016 14:44

The whole purpose of a JV is for a synergy between two partners-emphasis on partnership.The benefit must be on both sides.Time and money saved,something new developed benefiting both. Sure,we can try and reinvent the wheel again and again.look at our efforts in getting the LCA into prod. and sqd. service despite a heap of firang input from the engine,radar,missiles,etc. It is why JVs or consortiums have been adopted by the West esp. in Europe and mergers and M&As in the US.

The one area where we have no alternative but to do so is strat. missiles and missiles whose range is beyond the MTCR norm. Even here there has been some spin-off from our civilian programme starting from the SLV series.The next step for BMos should be the BMos-M along with the Hyper-missile. No idea why the two programmes haven't been finalised as yet.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 06 Apr 2016 15:23

Our CEO is having the right spirit for promoting everything Russian while ignoring that ALL money and ALL orders are Indian. Anyway he shamelessly proves that seeker, engine, warhead is Russian and will remain Russian, after-all it is a JV. India gets the can, errr I meant India gets to make the can...nister. The Pvt Companies are ready to offer indigenous seeker replacement but the orders are "may be". So this is perfect Indian DPSU style JV, in which India's sole duty is to provide all the money and get the responsibility to do packaging while other side gets all manufacturing. Not to fret but our Al-55 engine, Shakti engine, TATRA JV, LRSAM, MRSAM, Indo-Israeli tank sabot round, --- are all similar type of JVs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jayasimha » 06 Apr 2016 16:06

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/Hr3bAp ... ssile.html

Government clears diversion of forest land to set up missile testing facility
150 hectares of forest in the Krishna wildlife sanctuary in Andhra Pradesh has been diverted for setting up a missile testing facility

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jayasimha » 06 Apr 2016 16:08

http://www.strategypage.com/%5Chtmw%5Ch ... 60401.aspx
Air Weapons: India Tries To Survive A Broken ARM

April 1, 2016: The Indian Air Force has gone public with the problems it is having with a new ARM (Anti-radiation missile) being developed for them by DRDO (India's Defense Research and Development Organization). The NGARM (New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile) is larger and 40 percent heavier than the air force specified and it is still uncertain that it will work. NGARM has a range of 60 kilometers and is meant to replace the Anglo-French Martel, a 1980s design that weighs 550 kg (1,210 pounds) and even with updated electronics is inferior to the American AGM-88 HARM, which the Indian Air Force wants to buy 1,500 of. That will not be possible if the government insists on the air force using NGARM, which will not be available until 2019 at the earliest.

The Indian Air Force wants the AGM-88E which weighs 361 kg (794 pounds) and can detect and attack targets more than 150 kilometers away while travelling at a speed of 2,450 kilometers per hour. The AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out. The AGM-88E was developed jointly by U.S. and Italian firms. The original 1960s anti-radiation missile (ARM) quickly evolved into the HARM. Currently, there are orders for over 2,000 AGM-88E/Fs from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, Italy, and Germany. Over 24,000 AGM-88s, of all types, have been produced since the 1980s.

DRDO is a network of 51 weapons and technology laboratories, employing over 30,000 people (20 percent of them scientists and engineers.) DRDO has been screwing up Indian weapons development programs for half a century. Efforts to shape up DRDO have consistently failed. It's all about politics (DRDO provides jobs for well-connected people) and nationalism (India wants to produce its own high tech weapons.) DRDO has failed in most all areas (small arms, tanks, missiles and warplanes). The failures have grown over the years, and created louder calls for reforms. DRDO has had some successes, which it publicizes as energetically as it can. It tries to play down the failures, or simply tout them as partial successes. But compared to defense industries in other nations, DRDO is an underperformer, and highly resistant to reform.

-----------
dont know how much is true or false

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2016 16:12

Any thing from Strategypage is just BS to put it Mildly ......this one is just a faithful reproduction from Janes/Defence news Rahul Bedi etc with their own churan added for extra taste

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jayasimha » 06 Apr 2016 17:01

vcsekhar wrote:I read this report and thought that something was off in the reporting.
Earlier this month i had attended a DRDO vendor meet where they were asking for SME's to come forward to make parts for their missile projects. The numbers estimated for the Akash system are 30 per month presently and moving to 50-60 per month by the end of the year. It was also interesting to note that the cost of the actual missile is less than 20% of the cost of the systems.
There are multiple private companies that have been given responsibility for large sub-assembly production so that BDL can increase final assembly rates.

All of the currently missile systems LRSAM, MRSAM, AKASH etc are in going to be in full scale production very soon. The amount of work done by DRDO is just phenomenal and they have taken the right track of collaborating when required (not reinventing the wheel) and developing themselves when tech already exists.



Hi vcsekhar,
I assume the vendor meet you are talking about happened in Hyderabad.
I believe this kind of Kumbh Mela will be organised in Bangalore also in coming days. If anyone has the details,, pls post in advance.. it will be great benefit for one and all

Thanks

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neela » 06 Apr 2016 17:57

shiv wrote:
Neela wrote:is there a security or safety reason why Brahmos isn't shown in action in IronFist2016?

For the same reason why they would not show a Prithvi or an Agni being launched. You can see the launch but the missile has to fly out of Rajasthan and land somewhere. I know that there are great places for missiles to land across the Rajasthan border, but that cannot be shown or seen by the guests. Iron Fist is more about showing munitions hitting targets rather than launching of munitions. The Astra launch only this year was a one-off.


Surely there is a minimum range within which the missile can function . We needn;t put VIPs in harms way but video-feeds and projecting it to large screens are alternatives.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Apr 2016 18:27

Karan's point is very valid. We are the only suckers who obey the "letter & spirit" of all this JV & MTCR bullshit. Russians haven't bought even 1 Brahmos & are busy selling Yakhont. This is a 1-way deal.

Our approach should be:

1) Indigenize seeker + engine
2) Build Brahmos clone
3) Call it by a different name under a different program (share expertise with Brahmos corp but keep organizations separate)
4) Don't limit ourselves with this bullshit 290 Km restriction. Go for 500 or 1000 Km range
5) Brahmos corp to focus on Brahmos-M, air-launched version & Hypersonic
6) Replace Brahmos Block-I, II, III with indigenous longer-range alternative over time

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 06 Apr 2016 18:31

jayasimha wrote:http://www.strategypage.com/%5Chtmw%5Chtairw%5Carticles%5C20160401.aspx
Air Weapons: India Tries To Survive A Broken ARM

April 1, 2016: The Indian Air Force has gone public with the problems it is having with a new ARM (Anti-radiation missile) being developed for them by DRDO (India's Defence Research and Development Organization). The NGARM (New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile) is larger and 40 percent heavier than the air force specified and it is still uncertain that it will work. NGARM has a range of 60 kilometres and is meant to replace the Anglo-French Martel, a 1980s design that weighs 550 kg (1,210 pounds) and even with updated electronics is inferior to the American AGM-88 HARM, which the Indian Air Force wants to buy 1,500 of. That will not be possible if the government insists on the air force using NGARM, which will not be available until 2019 at the earliest.


This is a second major article/attack on NGARM. The first one was idiotic and claimed that NGRAM weighed 140kg, now this article has improved that version by stating that it is 140% of the intended weight and the range is lower i.e. only 60km against intended 100km. Now my version:-

Gyan Self Paid (for now) News Agency

NGARM is progressing very well and slated for tests followed by production. Certain Babus who are supposed to get cuts and scholarship for their children in USA if USD 3 Billion deal for HARM is given to Uncle Sam; are nervous. The job of attacking NGARM has been given to specially created task force who have been doing a great hit job on Arjun and Nag. The bid from Akash hit job team has been rejected due to their iffy performance. The hidden secret is that DRDO has increased the weight of warhead by 80% to increase its impact and if their is low altitude drop then range would be 160km while if there is high level drop by an aircraft flying at Mach 2+ then range would be 600km.

Any person who wants to buy comments in favor of or against a weapon system may contact by PM.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 06 Apr 2016 19:39

jayasimha wrote:dont know how much is true or false

Bullshit

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 06 Apr 2016 20:23

jayasimha wrote:http://www.strategypage.com/%5Chtmw%5Chtairw%5Carticles%5C20160401.aspx
Air Weapons: India Tries To Survive A Broken ARM

April 1, 2016: The Indian Air Force has gone public with the problems it is having with a new ARM (Anti-radiation missile) being developed for them by DRDO (India's Defense Research and Development Organization). The NGARM (New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile) is larger and 40 percent heavier than the air force specified and it is still uncertain that it will work. NGARM has a range of 60 kilometers and is meant to replace the Anglo-French Martel, a 1980s design that weighs 550 kg (1,210 pounds) and even with updated electronics is inferior to the American AGM-88 HARM, which the Indian Air Force wants to buy 1,500 of. That will not be possible if the government insists on the air force using NGARM, which will not be available until 2019 at the earliest.

The Indian Air Force wants the AGM-88E which weighs 361 kg (794 pounds) and can detect and attack targets more than 150 kilometers away while travelling at a speed of 2,450 kilometers per hour. The AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out. The AGM-88E was developed jointly by U.S. and Italian firms. The original 1960s anti-radiation missile (ARM) quickly evolved into the HARM. Currently, there are orders for over 2,000 AGM-88E/Fs from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, Italy, and Germany. Over 24,000 AGM-88s, of all types, have been produced since the 1980s.

DRDO is a network of 51 weapons and technology laboratories, employing over 30,000 people (20 percent of them scientists and engineers.) DRDO has been screwing up Indian weapons development programs for half a century. Efforts to shape up DRDO have consistently failed. It's all about politics (DRDO provides jobs for well-connected people) and nationalism (India wants to produce its own high tech weapons.) DRDO has failed in most all areas (small arms, tanks, missiles and warplanes). The failures have grown over the years, and created louder calls for reforms. DRDO has had some successes, which it publicizes as energetically as it can. It tries to play down the failures, or simply tout them as partial successes. But compared to defense industries in other nations, DRDO is an underperformer, and highly resistant to reform.

-----------
dont know how much is true or false


I wouldn't trust anything from strategy page unless its a reproduction with the original source referenced. There is also no point in throwing around range figures for an ARM since ARM-based targeting is usually not kinematically limited (range) but rather limited by the ability to pin-point emitters, establish feedback loop and make sure that the right emitter is being targeted amidst a host of countermeasures. ARM range is also dependent on how well it is integrated onto the platform employing it hence the USAF's delaying tactics on the -88E. Also, the article gets an important piece of technical 'googleable' information wrong : The AGM-88E is not the HARM but the AARGM (Different weapon, by a different OEM).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 06 Apr 2016 22:56

Austin, of course its fear. If India was least bothered about whether xyz would give it a new weapon and confident it would pay extra to entice folks, then it would just reverse engineer or modify as it saw fit. That requires effort. Our entire structure is dedicated to taking the easy path and cheap path so they will behave like obedient schooboys.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 07 Apr 2016 02:01

S Rai, Rohit Vats, Vaibhav,

Re Akash army configuration I was wondering whether a troop can function completely independently. I am thinking of how a Strike Corps Commander would use Akash.

A Strike Corps also has an AD brigade but this scenario is purely Akash.

The Akash Regt is controlled by Corps HQ and Corps Commander (with his staff) deploys Troops and Batteries to protect his spearheads and his LOC (Line of Communication). I am imagining a scenario here and seeing how best to use Akash.

I am Strike 2 Commander and have an offensive underway on two axis. 1st Axis is Jammu, Ranbir Singh Pora, Chawinda with 1 Armoured Div less two armoured regts and second Axis, Gurdaspur, Narowal, Parsur with 14 Rapid + 2 armoured regts. My 6/7 brigades will each have an objective and will be separated by 50-60 kms max. My spearheads will come under air attack, so will my LOC. I will need cover for 6 /7 different locations which will be rapidly changing. So my question can the 6 troops in an Akash Regt operate independently and provide air cover ? How will they connect to GCC and how far can GCC be ?

This is just one scenario where Corps Ops are on a narrow front and shallow front. Ops in Sindh and Cholistan can be on a wider front. How spread out can a Akash Troop be from the GCC and other troops. What is the max distance ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 07 Apr 2016 04:21

^^^

The answer is yes. An Akash troop can function in an Autonomous Mode as well as in a Group/Centralized Mode. It can switch between the two modes seamlessly. In an autonomous mode, TCC can use 3D-CAR for surveillance without involving GCC; it is very likely there would be multiple 3D-CAR available in the area of operation [the order was for 100 3D-CAR along with 2500 missiles for 8 IAF Akash squadrons plus 2 IA Akash regiments].

An Akash troop is deployed within a 1 sq. km radius. Launchers and TCC can be placed at around 0.5km from the TLR.

Geography permitting, GCC can be up to 25km away from Troops. One GCC controlling two Akash Troops would be able to provide AD coverage between 30km and 100km depending on which axis the troops are deployed. One GCC controlling four Akash Troops would be able to provide gap-free coverage of 62 km x 62 km if deployed in a square pattern. In a linear deployment (i.e. 4 troops in a line), it covers an area of 98 km x 44 km. In a trapezoidal pattern, it can provide coverage to an area of 5000 sq. km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 07 Apr 2016 06:06

Should use the #ChabiIndex to rate these articles. NaMo recently said he had locked the chabi hence the squealing.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shaun » 07 Apr 2016 07:48

I said it long back , that JV is a farce. Its a assembly line for making Oniks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29172 » 07 Apr 2016 07:51

Karan M wrote:Austin, of course its fear. If India was least bothered about whether xyz would give it a new weapon and confident it would pay extra to entice folks, then it would just reverse engineer or modify as it saw fit. That requires effort. Our entire structure is dedicated to taking the easy path and cheap path so they will behave like obedient schooboys.


Fear for what exactly? And it certainly aint so in the missile, radar, shipbuilding areas. Why do these fears only exist in Airforce and Army?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 07 Apr 2016 08:04

Reread what I wrote.. it explains exactly why we are in the situation.

Also Look at teh amount of russian eqpt as a proportion of our overall holdings..


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