Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 14 Apr 2016 09:20

Could it have been for the Agni VI? Karanji posted a screenshot from the DRDO presentation some time back. It doesn't look like the diameter makes it past 1.5 m.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Apr 2016 09:25

ShauryaT wrote:Any speculation on the payload?

The only person that I know of who has spoken of specific payloads on Indian missiles was Guru Kalam who mentioned flowers..just sayin

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Apr 2016 09:48

RoyG wrote:Could it have been for the Agni VI? Karanji posted a screenshot from the DRDO presentation some time back. It doesn't look like the diameter makes it past 1.5 m.

I found my posts (from Jan'13) but not the tender.

indranilroy wrote:hmmm. in that case, here is my speculation.

I think, the trailer will carry the stages of the K-4 missile. Weight and diameter match. Plus, I don't know what the ANS program is, but I could gather that it has got something to do with DRDL and BDL. Besides, whatever is being carried in the trailer is safeguarded against vibration, rain, fire and other environmental factors and handled with extreme care.

I think the stages will be carried separately in the trailer and final assembly will be done near the submarine before placing them in the launch tubes.

indranilroy wrote:I am most probably right with my speculation there .

ANS program stands for DRDO's Advanced Naval Systems Programme which designs (and builds) the K-15/K-4 missiles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2016 10:06

my understanding was even the largest ICBM like SS18 are mated in the factory. final assembly will surely take time and tools , which is best avoided by keeping them premated in a pressure sealed transport container with sticker type vibration sensors. the 10-12m length is no different from a brahmos TELAR minus the house in front and far less than A6.

http://www.shockwatch.com.au/shipping_a ... cators.htm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2016 10:09

nice pic of a russian missile with petals surrounding the 3rd stage core motor

http://cont.ws/uploads/pic/2016/3/73754 ... 3206_b.jpg

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2016 10:18

Singha wrote:nice pic of a russian missile with petals surrounding the 3rd stage core motor

http://cont.ws/uploads/pic/2016/3/73754 ... 3206_b.jpg

That looks like a US ICBM with 3rd Stage Bus

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2016 11:08

the caption was in russian, so I assumed it was their dog.

member_28802 · Post by **member_28802** » 14 Apr 2016 11:10

Akash-Missile-System-Successfully-Demonstrates-Killing-Efficiency

...

Sources said altogether six rounds of the missiles were fired from the launching complex-III of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea in last three days (And all hitting bulls-eye)

Speaking exclusively to ‘The New Indian Express’, (

, Sorry Mod, could not resist. This was the same newspaper spreading the lies that army is calling Akash SAM DuD) he said for the first time in the history of missile programme, Akash missile has achieved such great success in consecutive days. It is one of the best missiles in its class available in the world and it has immense export potential.

“There were different missions in different altitudes and different ranges. Starting from approaching and receding to crossing at small range, high range, lower altitude and higher altitude, the missile had a wonderful demonstration,” he claimed.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 14 Apr 2016 19:19

From the above link,

Asked whether it was a ‘befitting reply’ to army’s accusation on the efficiency of the missile system and interest on Israeli systems, Chandramouli [Project Director of Akash] said there is some sect of people who always would like to go outside. “But our performance is far better than others. In fact it is one of the best world class weapons as of now,” he added.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 14 Apr 2016 20:05

SSridhar wrote:From the above link,
Asked whether it was a ‘befitting reply’ to army’s accusation on the efficiency of the missile system and interest on Israeli systems, Chandramouli [Project Director of Akash] said there is some sect of people who always would like to go outside. “But our performance is far better than others. In fact it is one of the best world class weapons as of now,” he added.

There is misreporting right there, it is not -- would like to "go" outside. Rather it is being forced to "go" outside with nothing except newsprint available to wipe.

There is no respect for thousand year old traditions of "going" outside. Heck they are trying to charge just for the privilege of "going". shulabh, my foot. How long will the public hold it in? There will be riots, I tell you. Build more open spaces to "go" instead of wasting tax money on diwali rockets while south asia is forced to "go" on train tracks. We must organise a conference in djibuti to discuss this issue, including the core issue of "going". It is a flashpoint. Giving night mares, and day horses to foggy bottoms.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 14 Apr 2016 20:48

indranilroy wrote:
RoyG wrote:Could it have been for the Agni VI? Karanji posted a screenshot from the DRDO presentation some time back. It doesn't look like the diameter makes it past 1.5 m.
I found my posts (from Jan'13) but not the tender.
indranilroy wrote:hmmm. in that case, here is my speculation.

I think, the trailer will carry the stages of the K-4 missile. Weight and diameter match. Plus, I don't know what the ANS program is, but I could gather that it has got something to do with DRDL and BDL. Besides, whatever is being carried in the trailer is safeguarded against vibration, rain, fire and other environmental factors and handled with extreme care.

I think the stages will be carried separately in the trailer and final assembly will be done near the submarine before placing them in the launch tubes.

indranilroy wrote:I am most probably right with my speculation there .

ANS program stands for DRDO's Advanced Naval Systems Programme which designs (and builds) the K-15/K-4 missiles.

You could be right. Smoke shroud is throwing off a proper visual. Just looked over the video again. According to this report, Trident D5 has a range a bit over 4000 miles (~6400 km). US SLBM ranges seem to be a bit inflated. Not too far off from the presentation pic. If it is that one that is being tested, the measurements should be similar.

https://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/slbm/950811-cr.htm

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Apr 2016 20:49

Test of Akash missile in India around 100, tests of Barak-8 around 1 in India, which concealed all details. Some missiles are born perfect.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Apr 2016 20:51

gori chamri carries its own premium and pre-signed gate pass.

no gori lady is denied entry at any posh nightclub in india.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Apr 2016 22:18

^ badly disposed rahu these Indians have...

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Apr 2016 22:41

I think Akash-2 will have active seeker, two way data link and range of 100km. Role of Both CAR and Rajendra Radars may be taken over by Ashwini AESA radar.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 14 Apr 2016 23:15

100 km?? I think 50-60 Km more likely.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 14 Apr 2016 23:27

There was a report few weeks back stating the range of Akash NG to be 50km.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2016 01:23

Indranilroy, The only unknowns for the K4 would be underwater launch and they would have launched from pontoon many times. After that they proofed the whole vehicle.

I wouldn't be surprised if they launched two in a month from the boat.

It needs to be sent on patrol.

What is more interesting is the idea of Bay of Bengal as the inland lake for the INS Arihant.

I used to think of Southern Indian Ocean as its deployment area.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Apr 2016 02:10

ramana wrote:Indranilroy, The only unknowns for the K4 would be underwater launch and they would have launched from pontoon many times. After that they proofed the whole vehicle.

That is absolutely my point. There is no way that this is the 2nd and 3rd launch of K-4, unlike what our defense analysts are reporting.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2016 02:37

No-No. The UWL is with a inert K-4 launched from pontoon many times to test the launch mechanism. These are not counted as hot launches.

After that it was hot launched from pontoon. Old video.

What we could be seeing in March 2016 are real UWL from INS Arihant.
And both were short/minimum range trajectories and shallow depth.
As all they need to prove is submarine integration. And these would do.

We might or might not see full range test as would like to keep it under wraps.
The payload is the big one.

No pictures etc. as it would be operational.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 15 Apr 2016 02:51

Isn't it counter productive to follow the bastion strategy? If Arihant stays in BoB only the the enemy knows where to expect the attack from. I would prefer deployment into Arabian sea and South Indian Ocean.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Apr 2016 06:25

Bheeshma wrote:Isn't it counter productive to follow the bastion strategy? If Arihant stays in BoB only the the enemy knows where to expect the attack from. I would prefer deployment into Arabian sea and South Indian Ocean.

Using Arun_S' work for "AGNI-3SL" as a reference, with SL being his nomenclature for submarine launched, a 3,500 km range missile with a 2.5 ton payload (250 kt) could alternatively reach 6,500 km with 40% of the payload (100 kt). That opens up a lot of possibilities in the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean. You could make it look like the missile was fired not far from Diego Garcia if you were feeling particularly bold

References:

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Apr 2016 07:00

Gyan wrote:Test of Akash missile in India around 100, tests of Barak-8 around 1 in India, which concealed all details. Some missiles are born perfect.

These IA tests were a repeat of tests done for the IAF only a couple of years ago. Sad state of affairs to keep having to prove the same parameters over again between the two services. Shouldn't one set of sets be sufficient? There were people from the IA present in the last series. Or are these more of a routine exercise?

One thing that has come out of the two sets of user "final-proof" trials is the reliability of the Akash Mk.1 SAM system. Both sets of tests have validated beyond doubt its efficacy in dealing with near/far boundary, low/high altitude, approaching/receding and crossing targets. Even our DDM Rout seems to acknowledge this now

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2016 07:33

On the other hand 6 tests done at short notice to shut the face of idiot media and import pasand people is a necessary and commendable action. People who export half baked maal to us are always showing us beautiful videos that we fall for. Nothing like live tests as mooh tod jawab.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 15 Apr 2016 08:28

The Agni-3SL is 2m in dia but the K-4 is supposedly 1.30-1.5m ?

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 15 Apr 2016 08:44

[Speculation Alert]

The 7th March test might be an intert K4 cold launch from Arihant to check the launch params without igniting the main motor. Kind of like a high speed taxi trial. Tested the entire release mechanism from Arihant for the exact shape, size, weight, pressure of the missile and launch tube etc.

Since everything was found normal, the next step was taken on 31st March without much delay which is the test with main motor ignition.

[/Speculation Alert]

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 15 Apr 2016 08:51

Bheeshma wrote:The Agni-3SL is 2m in dia but the K-4 is supposedly 1.30-1.5m ?

The chart shows that the hypothetical Agni-3SL, with that diameter, would take 2.5 tons to 3000 km. The narrower K-4, which is not hypothetical, can take the same 2.5 tons even farther, i.e 3500 km. The lighter composite rocket motor casing that was first introduced to the Agni-4 could explain the improved efficiency.

Regardless, the range extension for a lighter payload would apply.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Apr 2016 10:16

Picklu, Such an inert launch would fall right near the boat. Not 700 km.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 15 Apr 2016 10:31

We have no clue what IA really tested. Did they test good old Akash or were there modifications being tested. If users are involved in live firings whether from stock or DRDOs tweak, they do build a good amount of experience for the real deal later. I presume DRDO built the simulator for training purposes as well?

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Apr 2016 10:59

srai wrote:One thing that has come out of the two sets of user "final-proof" trials is the reliability of the Akash Mk.1 SAM system. Both sets of tests have validated beyond doubt its efficacy in dealing with near/far boundary, low/high altitude, approaching/receding and crossing targets. Even our DDM Rout seems to acknowledge this now )

Saar, how much ever we might abuse the reporter ( since he said something we didnt like), there is definitely something (not so good) cooking if DRDO had to conduct these "special" firings of a already inducted system

I hope that this kills all the murmurs which have been going around and the main customer( IA) is also satisfied.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Apr 2016 12:21

^^ How do we know these were special firings and not regular ones?
Its long been known IA would NOT procure more than 2 regiments of Akash, hence the QRSAM.

Its a different matter media are so stupid they made a hue and cry over it and ran down the Akash, ignoring the fact it got 7 more squadrons as order from the IAF.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Apr 2016 15:09

One missile does not make a deterrent. Waiting for ripple test, emptying out the silos!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2016 16:03

this can surely be done, with only 4 possible.

operation begemot type tests can come later with 8 tests firing full bore to the shores of antarctica.
those are not just tests but a statement.

in this day and age, russia is investing in a SS18 replacement called Sarmat that has enough range and massive payload to take any trajectory across the earth to strike any point. they will likely link it to some dead hand perimetr system just for the scare factor

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Apr 2016 16:36

I think it is required to validate the buoyancy control of the platform, rather than the missiles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Apr 2016 19:06

Can be done cheaply with inert k4 with ballast and just gas generator. It will be fired normally but fall back in water

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Apr 2016 10:15

Indiginise Brahmos Mopulse Seeker

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g1Bfn6ERhtw/ ... seeker.jpg

Why Max Speed of LRSAM is just MAch 2 ?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kfK1i_SpHgY/ ... LR-SAM.jpg

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 Apr 2016 11:16

That range us for naval targets. Speed has long been mentioned as 2M.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Apr 2016 11:41

Karan M wrote:That range us for naval targets. Speed has long been mentioned as 2M.

They quote that as Max Speed the average speed toward 70 km full range will be lower around ~ 1.5 M

John · Post by **John** » 17 Apr 2016 20:52

It's stop speed is close to Mach 7 and also range is incorrect.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/12/l ... -navy.html

To accelerate the interceptor, which was by now merely coasting, the dual-pulse motor fired for a second time. This increased the interceptor’s velocity up to Mach 5-7, enabling it to manoeuvre sharply in tandem with the target’s evasive zigzags.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Apr 2016 22:08

John wrote:It's stop speed is close to Mach 7 and also range is incorrect.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2015/12/l ... -navy.html

To accelerate the interceptor, which was by now merely coasting, the dual-pulse motor fired for a second time. This increased the interceptor’s velocity up to Mach 5-7, enabling it to manoeuvre sharply in tandem with the target’s evasive zigzags.

Thats the claim only Shukla is making , havent read any one making that M 5-7 speed claim not even IAI. Also if you are doing that speed you cant really manouver sharply as he says that would structurally break the missile.