Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 27 Apr 2016 21:37

Karan M wrote:Rao Inderjit Singh probably doesn't realize how much howling at the moon will occur on all Indian defense forums now.

Cue Parsoon to make a blogpost combining Martian aerostats with S-400 with Israeli radar, Ukrainian wiring and French radios in 5. 4, 3, 2....


I recollect during Chakra deal which was signed during ABV era , GOI and Ru GOI kept denying it for many years even though many media reports mentioned the deal was signed , finally offical acknowledgment came just a year before it was handed over to India.

I would expect if this is not an authorised statement MOD to deny it and so will the Russian.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 27 Apr 2016 21:40

Rao Inderjit Singh is MOS. He is as senior as it gets..

I suspect though GOI didn't want this info out since it will tell the opponent what we are doing. Ideally, all our BMD/Strat Air Defence should be zero publicity.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 27 Apr 2016 21:45

Karan M wrote:Rao Inderjit Singh is MOS. He is as senior as it gets..

I suspect though GOI didn't want this info out since it will tell the opponent what we are doing. Ideally, all our BMD/Strat Air Defence should be zero publicity.


Agreed , better to STFU and play it cool for our own good.

I recollect during ABV era there was this MOD State from Gujrat who incidently leaked some info on A-5 or was it Nuclear Program and after some months he was quitely told to leave.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 27 Apr 2016 21:47

since the dummies will still occupy a pylon and need all the brains of a real weapon . why not pay a little more for the warhead and improve the Pk of the swarm ?


Because they can be much smaller, and can replace the warhead with stuff that enables some of the cooperative targeting.

Rus has deployed some pantsyr at hymenim afb to back up the S400, but they have SA15 as well if needed - these are VL boxes on tracked vehicle


Yup and that is the challenge for PGMs. The entire objective is to increase the cost and munitions on target that impacts the size of the raid that requires penetrating of the larger SAM bubble that these IADS create. The bigger the strike package the better from an IADS perspective. Essentially, you can't threaten them with 3 fighters penetrating the AD but need say 2 or 3 times that. That is partially what has driven the SDB for example, i.e. more bombs per sortie and fighter to create the sort of saturation effect that would have required the bombers with the JDAM. For SEAD/DEAD you will obviously emphasize number of bombs to the size if you can't have both. These interceptors aren't really very expensive given both their capability, and what they are protecting and the Gun as a last resort is quite cheap per round as well. This on a layered system that begins shooting down aircraft at 200 or so km out currently without EOR which could considerably add their capability once they develop enough capacity to create those synergies. This is before the mobility of these systems render long range GPS based targeting challenging and the fact that if approach these systems LOW as a Jaguar or MKI would (given the interceptor range) you loose a significant portion of the glide range... The Russians are obviously a decade and more advanced but China is pouring in a lot of money into this as well. Again, who knows how capable their systems are !

These are however valuable systems that can be scaled up or down when the IAF gets its hands on the PAKFA, AMCA and AURA..Those are the systems the Chinese would fear the most when defending their IADS given that the first line of A2AD for them is offensive, and having to commit resources to defending against coordinated LO strike packages takes away from that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 28 Apr 2016 10:11

Kakarat wrote:Picture of DRDO Glide Bomb from MOD Annual Report 2016 (sorry for the delayed post)

Image


Hope to see 125kg, 250kg and 450kg versions as well. For 125kg and 250kg version, multi-carriage racks would be the way to go.

Imagine if a LCA could carry 8 to 12 of these smaller ones. A formation of four LCAs would be able to launch 32 to 48 Glide Bombs (125kg/250kg class) at an airbase with precision from 100km away. Multiple types of warhead should be available--bunker busting (for HAS), fragmentation (for soft targets in open), anti-runway and anti-tank/vehicle.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_20453 » 28 Apr 2016 12:44

srai wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Picture of DRDO Glide Bomb from MOD Annual Report 2016 (sorry for the delayed post)

Image


Hope to see 125kg, 250kg and 450kg versions as well. For 125kg and 250kg version, multi-carriage racks would be the way to go.

Imagine if a LCA could carry 8 to 12 of these smaller ones. A formation of four LCAs would be able to launch 32 to 48 Glide Bombs (125kg/250kg class) at an airbase with precision from 100km away. Multiple types of warhead should be available--bunker busting (for HAS), fragmentation (for soft targets in open), anti-runway and anti-tank/vehicle.


Absolutely loving this weapon. Different weight classes & warheads are a must. Bunker Busting, Fragmentation, Anti Runway, Thermobaric (For caves and tunnels), ICL-20 for extensive 'f*** s*** up' qualities, Incendiary just to name a few.

LCA should be able to deploy 3*1000 Kg or 5*450 Kg at the minimum

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 29 Apr 2016 01:53

I have one question on these glide bombs.

If they were already tested in 2015 why they are now working on carriage/drop trials? How else they would have tested it?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 29 Apr 2016 02:10

Sid, They have a lot of ground tests conducted before its ready for drop trials.
There is an old RAF paper on how they did those tests in WWII.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2016 03:54

Sid, TDs got tested from a Jag IIRC.
These will be full protos being tested.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 29 Apr 2016 16:41

Thanks Ramana ji/Karan. Did a little google and found that "successful" tests were actually done back in 2014/2013 as well. Since it was last done in Dec 2014, hence DRDO can call it 2015. DRDO have their own patented formula to Round of dates :)

Hence carriage and drop trials must have been completed by now. Maybe they are working on integrating with a different aircraft type.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-su ... ?site=full

India Successfully Tests One Ton Glide Bomb.


The precision-guided bomb, tested in the Bay of Bengal off the coast of Odisha, was dropped by an Indian Air Force aircraft.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2016 17:27

Sid, that's why i said they were TDs and WIP systems.. the one mentioned here, given its now being readied for carriage and drop trials is most likely a more mature system with design, components all to a high degree of maturity.

typically systems which are a long ways away, dont make it to DRDO section under MOD AR. they are at least in trials or have reached a degree of maturity at prototype stage and that's when drdo mentions them. of course, there are some which are in endless trials eg arjun, but not all face that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2016 17:30

for instance subsystem maturity, first trials can be done for basic guidance. 2nd set with enhanced software and all up range performance with proper nav system (eg something you'll have in production variants). by time of carriage/drop trials basic design and systems proven now iterative improvements.

good thing is if you look at astra, that signifies huge step forward for india in many subsystems. barak-2 shows propulsion advances and actuation progress.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2016 17:37

see akash
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/Hindi/bnews ... akash1.jpg
and astra (one in final testing right now same subsystems for the most part as original)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PWEL5q8-oOY/U ... Poster.jpg
a lot in latter can be leveraged for PGMs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2016 17:43

and we are effectively jumping generations. eg:
http://i55.servimg.com/u/f55/12/26/71/76/a_comp10.jpg

our jump with astra is directly to AIM-120C level.
with NGARM directly to AGM-88 (or even ahead if multi-seeker part is correct).
with Nirbhay, directly to Tomahawk.
and this glide bomb is clearly comparable to JSOW. if we get a seeker development complete, even C variant equivalents can be fielded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-154_J ... off_Weapon

IMHO, this is where the true revolution/RMA for IAF will begin, when local industry starts mass producing these DRDO designs which are tested in the hundreds or even dozens every year. as versus imported carefully hoarded stocks of a few hundred bombs of each type, some entire groups of which end up as complete duds.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Apr 2016 17:58

imagine this with 8 astras and 4 python-5s.

http://i48.tinypic.com/34gq729.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 29 Apr 2016 21:18

Austin wrote:Russia, India Sign Agreement on S-400 Defense Systems Deliveries - Official

New Delhi and Moscow have signed an agreement on the deliveries of S-400 air defense systems, Indian Minister of State Rao Inderjit Singh said Wednesday.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) – The S-400 is Russia's next-generation air defense system, carrying three different types of missiles capable of destroying aerial targets at short-to-extremely long range. It is capable of tracking and destroying all existing aerial targets, including ballistics and cruise missiles.

"We've signed that agreement," Singh said.

When asked to give a date on the first deliveries of the defense system, Singh said, "It's hard to say, but as soon as possible."

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/2016042 ... z472rcd4N0


Rostec, the manufacturer of the S-400 has bluntly stated that no contract for delivering the S-400 has been signed. Possibly a repeat of the Dassault Rafale deal is happening with Rao Inderjit Singh here playing the role of the BJP Party in that case:

Russian official refutes reports on signed contract for S-400 supplies to India

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 29 Apr 2016 21:59

Good. Instead of wasting money on something china has access to, India should focus on our own BMD. When was the last Endo and Exo atmospheric test?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 30 Apr 2016 23:39

Quick Reaction Missile to be developed by BDL and DRDO

HYDERABAD: Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) have signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) for joint development and production of the indigenous Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QRSAM). The missile will be designed and developed by DRDO and will be manufactured by BDL, the ministry of defence nominated Production Agency, for supply to the Indian Army. The MoU was signed by V. Udaya Bhaskar, CMD, BDL and Dr K. Jayaraman, director, DRDL on April 29 at DRDL. Directors and senior officials from BDL and DRDO were present on the occasion. QRSAM has an advanced RF seeker with multiple target handling capability. It is canister launched and has a range up to 30 kms.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 054713.cms

So,
Missile: RF seeker, canister 30kms, fire from short stop
Radar: Track on move, Search while move, X band
Tracked vehicle likely

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 30 Apr 2016 23:55

^^^If QRSAM has 30 km range, where does this place AKASH wrt IA future requirements?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 01 May 2016 00:28

^^^
Occupies similar space. QRSAM would be deployed more forward given its nature of quick reaction. However, QRSAM has still a ways to go before it is going to be ready for induction. Sounds like they are just starting R&D officially. Probably around 7-to-10 years.

Akash Mk.1 is ready now and is super cheap. Downsides are it is bit bulky and has a bit slower reaction times (10-15 secs vs less than 5 sec desired in QRSAM). Akash Mk.2 would add seeker and increase range close to 50km. In the IA/IAF nomenclature, Akash Mk.1 fits the SRSAM space. Both have somewhat separate RFI where "Q" (quick) with "LL" (low level) SAM system was put in as a separate requirement. Probably should/would be merged with IN's SRSAM program akin to former Trishul tri-service missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Viv S » 01 May 2016 01:35

Are we sure QR-SAM isn't just a project designation for the Akash Mk2? Range is similar and from what I recall the latter was to be equipped with a seeker as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 01 May 2016 01:45

I wonder if the QRSAM would be one of those self-contained units--radar and missile combo like Trishul.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 01:49

Rohit, this replaces Akash for IA, basically IA has been stating they wanted a smaller, more compact system with fire and forget capability. Those first 2 regiments are Kvadrat replacements per IAs original requirements. As versus trying to make a more powerful system (Akash) into something it's not, better to design a new compact system. Akash is basically an all up integrated network by itself. QRSAM is more of a mobile picket type system (its radars and sensors will be capable but not in Rajendra & 3D CAR capability).

So, IA wants something like Tor. QRSAM is a good development and we might see this in trials in the next 2-3 years for the full system, and missile trials may have occurred earlier.

Reason I say this is because i track subsystems and budgets. The QRSAM budget approval was mentioned last year itself (eg funded program) and subsystems exist, including the crucial missile, which i suspect will be none other than a variant of the Astra.
The radar might be a variant of the hush-hush MMSR (which we don't know much about but that its in advanced development at LRDE with prototype development underway, which means initial design, software development have all reached a degree of maturity). My take is MMSR will meet both IA AD and IA WLR requirements with a single system which can be customized for both (software etc).

Sight will be SEOS.http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/201 ... eb2016.pdf
40km range capability? No wonder a less expensive LOS system was developed for Arjun. This can easily supplant the radar in high EW environments. Though RF + search radar combo (IMHO) will not be as robust as Akash GBR on non traditional bands and high power. But this will fix that with an alternative. And even Akash Mk2 will get it per reports.

For launcher systems R&DE has the capability and so do L&T, Tata SED.
Power units (Mak controls and others), C3I from DRDO which can be made at ECIL, BEL, Tata.

In short building blocks are there and system fabrication is in progress. Tenders went out early last year itself for missile parts etc.

For AF, Akash Mk2 will follow, post Akash Mk1. DRDO is playing it safe with range of 50km, below MRSAM of 70km. I personally feel it was a mistake and they should have thought of matching MRSAM ranges. Until and unless minimum range is lower than MRSAM (which would at least make sense). The talk of TOT apart, time will tell how much BEL really makes (especially the radar).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 01:52

srai wrote:I wonder if the QRSAM would be one of those self-contained units--radar and missile combo like Trishul.

Image


Yes, it will likely be similar.

However, radar might be smaller than MMSR if its adopted, think Schilka X-Band radar, but it will have to be at least 40-50km to use the missile effectively. Schilka is 15km and sourced from Elta.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 01 May 2016 01:59

Looks like this photo was taken at the handover ceremony of a IAF Akash squadron.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 01 May 2016 02:13

with NGARM directly to AGM-88 (or even ahead if multi-seeker part is correct)


Multi-Mode AGM-88E has already been operational for some time now, with the ER version in development. HARM is no longer produced with the requirement shifting to HDAM and AARGM, the former was retained by Raytheon while the latter competed and won by ATK. AARGM was fully developed and has brand new internals (operational with US and Italy) and the ER version is currently in development. HDAM was terminated and rolled on to the JDRADM A2a+a2G weapon which was later terminated and rolled on to DARPA's Triple Target Terminator - which successfully demonstrated ARM duties.

http://cfile9.uf.tistory.com/image/235D ... B7C23477F4
http://i25.tinypic.com/2cxzmg.jpg
Last edited by brar_w on 01 May 2016 02:48, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 01 May 2016 02:14

In the QRSAM space, the IA has three different SAM systems currently: Tangushka, Strella and SAM 8. Assuming these will be replaced by QRSAM.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 02:26

Love that image SRai of Akash, what a find !!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 02:27


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 02:28

Also I finally confirmed IAF ordered a total of 45 Rohinis - 8 Akash + 37 for surveillance.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 01 May 2016 03:40

^^Karan, are these numbers public?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 01 May 2016 04:42

^^^

100 3-D CARs were ordered back in Dec, 2011 by IA/IAF along with the Akash SAM system. It seems half of those are going to the IAF. Rest would be the IA's share.

HAPPY HOURS: 2,500 missiles, 112 launchers, 28 MPARs & 100 3-D CARs | Massive Akash SAM system orders boost to desi pride, industries | 1st Sqn in June & 2nd in Oct 2012 | DRDO mum on Mk-II

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 05:31

I read those 100 3D-CAR orders but have always been curious about breaking them down. I suspect actual number was lower than 100.

45 for IAF. Upto 29 mentioned for IA here (http://www.bharatdefencekavach.com/prin ... d=1&mid=53) but am not sure they are Rohini since he mentions 7 Rohini for Navy (but they were actually a different variant).

Those 29 radars were TCRs.
viewtopic.php?p=1781341

What are the orders received for the Weapon Locating Radar (WLR), 3D Tactical Control Radar & Battlefield Surveillance System (BSS)?
(For) 3D TCAR, we will get an order for 25 to 30 numbers by March 2011.

http://www.forceindia.net/interview6.aspx

Orders were indeed placed.
http://www.livemint.com/Companies/D2pl4 ... -FY11.html
Datt said during 2010-11 the company received significant orders including the Akash Weapon System (Rs 3,619 crore), .... 3D Tactical Control Radar (Rs 1,439 crore), ..


Interestingly when I search for TCR or any Indian radar programs I end up finding my own posts. :(
I seem to be forgetting what I myself found.

So all said and done, I assume:

45 3D CAR, IAF
7 (and more will come), IN
29 3D TCR

So 81 radars at a minimum, rest are yet to be "found". :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 05:32

Sid, i only mention public information and which can be linked to public sources on the forum and besides, even there, i self censor a lot.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 01 May 2016 05:49

What about Ashwini and Arudhra radars. Any idea how many are deployed Google gives no numbers.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 06:32

DARE is the next frontier. While it is partly out of their control, we lack teh capability to on ground test complex platforms like Su-30 fully for masking effects, I hope their RWJs on Tejas, D-29 RWJ on MiG-29 and RWJ on DARIN-3 work as required. Tarang succeeded on some platforms but had issues with reliability. I wonder what the IAF is doing to fix that Su-30 issue and whether they are counting on large wingtip mounted RWJs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2016 06:51

brar_w wrote:
with NGARM directly to AGM-88 (or even ahead if multi-seeker part is correct)


Multi-Mode AGM-88E has already been operational for some time now, with the ER version in development. HARM is no longer produced with the requirement shifting to HDAM and AARGM, the former was retained by Raytheon while the latter competed and won by ATK. AARGM was fully developed and has brand new internals (operational with US and Italy) and the ER version is currently in development. HDAM was terminated and rolled on to the JDRADM A2a+a2G weapon which was later terminated and rolled on to DARPA's Triple Target Terminator - which successfully demonstrated ARM duties.

http://cfile9.uf.tistory.com/image/235D ... B7C23477F4
http://i25.tinypic.com/2cxzmg.jpg


Thanks for the info. Now this makes complete sense.
http://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saura ... 48587.html

SauravJha: What is the MMW seeker meant for?
Satheesh Reddy: It is meant for PGMs and for the next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM).

Looks like DRDO is using the AARGM as a template.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 01 May 2016 07:22

^ That will be a good aggressive technology development effort once the NGARM is operationalized especially if they can get the SAT link up as well like the AARGM (2-way). The USN and Italy (soon RAAF as well) intend to use it for all strike as a higher speed strike weapon and they've tested it out against ships (both as an ARM and regular air-ground-missile using GPS/INS and MMW) as well given the load outs possible...

Image

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009gunmissile/AARGM.pdf

The next block in the spiral will be one of these solutions (current version is block 1) since now they don't need to rely on onboard systems to the targeting for the Growler.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 01 May 2016 07:53

Karan M wrote:I read those 100 3D-CAR orders but have always been curious about breaking them down. I suspect actual number was lower than 100.

45 for IAF. Upto 29 mentioned for IA here (http://www.bharatdefencekavach.com/prin ... d=1&mid=53) but am not sure they are Rohini since he mentions 7 Rohini for Navy (but they were actually a different variant).

Those 29 radars were TCRs.
viewtopic.php?p=<a href="tel:1781341">1781341</a>

What are the orders received for the Weapon Locating Radar (WLR), 3D Tactical Control Radar & Battlefield Surveillance System (BSS)?
(For) 3D TCAR, we will get an order for 25 to 30 numbers by March 2011.

http://www.forceindia.net/interview6.aspx

Orders were indeed placed.
http://www.livemint.com/Companies/D2pl4 ... -FY11.html
Datt said during 2010-11 the company received significant orders including the Akash Weapon System (Rs 3,619 crore), .... 3D Tactical Control Radar (Rs 1,439 crore), ..


Interestingly when I search for TCR or any Indian radar programs I end up finding my own posts. :(
I seem to be forgetting what I myself found.

So all said and done, I assume:

45 3D CAR, IAF
7 (and more will come), IN
29 3D TCR

So 81 radars at a minimum, rest are yet to be "found". :mrgreen:


This article mentions 100 units as "expected" to be the final number.

...
The first radars entered service in 2008 and the IAF has total orders for 37 radars with deliveries are underway and a final number of 100 expected to be built for the IAF.
...


So, as you have pointed out, 81 have been ordered so far combining all three services.

As for the remaining 19 3D-CAR unaccounted for, there was this article that mentioned the IAF may order additional 17 more Akash SAM squadrons on top of the 15 ordered. Likely also more IN orders for Revathi variant. It seems it could be over 100 3D-CAR variants when final numbers are tallied up.


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