Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 16 May 2016 07:33

Karan M wrote:
nash wrote:TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow 2m2 minutes ago
Successful test-firing of supersonic interceptor missile, from a test range off Odisha coast: Reports
Zero publicity and a successful launch.

I wonder whether more tests are also going on without fuss.

Wouldn't rule it out. K4 was tested stealthily as well, we may see Agni V being tested soon enough. To me it seems that the tests are sending out a clear message- AAD + S-400 (Defense) + K4 (Second strike) are rapidly maturing.

Of course, the lungi dance can wait till the actual systems are deployed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 May 2016 07:35

Now why did we test this? Didn't Modi know he is going to the US? What will America say?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 16 May 2016 07:50

Its a defensive test. Not the same as testing K-4/5 or A-5 to full range. Hopefully A-5 too full 8K range soon.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 16 May 2016 07:50

shiv wrote:Now why did we test this? Didn't Modi know he is going to the US? What will America say?

That's why it was done stealthily. A true 56 inch would have randomly fired all the missiles at danke ki chot.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 16 May 2016 08:05

shiv wrote:Now why did we test this? Didn't Modi know he is going to the US? What will America say?

American NOC for BMD exists. They have publicly come out against our ballistic missile program and now with China too stating Indian modernization as reason for them doing so, the alleged pressure from the US is no longer just a rumor.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 May 2016 08:45

I dont hear much talk on A-5 and the MIRV's configuration that was spoken about by ex DRDO chief has suddenly stopped being spoken about.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 16 May 2016 08:55

shiv wrote:Now why did we test this? Didn't Modi know he is going to the US? What will America say?

Do you recollect what Shri Tony Blair told the Indian PM after the 2002 Parliament attack ?

Something like "India must show some restraint before taking any hasty steps"

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 May 2016 09:11

Kashi wrote:
shiv wrote:Now why did we test this? Didn't Modi know he is going to the US? What will America say?
That's why it was done stealthily. A true 56 inch would have randomly fired all the missiles at danke ki chot.

Well as long as the tests continue, with minimum fuss & stuff gets inducted (despite the import iz all group), then all iz well. Much like PVNR - run silent, run deep. But periodic progress must be shown for keeping the public aware

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 16 May 2016 10:58

Kashi wrote:
Austin wrote:If I have to guess deployment then Mumbai , Delhi and Banglore are certainties for S-400 due to WNC/BARC , Capital , many strategic industry in Bangalore.
Probably Hyderabad as well.

But as Hakeemji pointed out, we will need defensive shields on the Indo-Pak and Indo-China borders as well. Surely, 5 S-400 systems cannot cover them all.

Can we assume that more systems are not being purchased (apart from the cost) since, GoI, the forces and DPSUs are confident that our homegrown systems will be fully ready in time to augment S-400 installations?

Yes we are working on a 250 KM to 300 KM range missile with some israeli input in a project similar to LRSAM. That should have a very wide envelope of operation. We can hope that AAD and PDV shall also success.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 May 2016 11:08

Given the huge costs of BMD batteries,it may be that the most important centres to defend will come under S-400s.The indigenous BMD misile system and B-8 LR SAMs will see deployment for other centres within an overall integrated BMD umbrella for the subcontinent.Island territories too will require BMD systems to counter Chinese BM carrier-killers.
V.good news though.

member_28932 · Post by **member_28932** » 16 May 2016 12:06

Shanu wrote:More details on the AAD test. But information on actual deployment remains sketchy.

http://odishasuntimes.com/2016/05/15/aa ... sha-coast/

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) today successfully test fired indigenously developed Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile from Abdul Kalam Island (formerly Wheeler Island) off Odisha coast.

The target missile — a modified version of Prithvi mimicking an incoming hostile missile — was launched at 11.15 AM from a naval platform and the interceptor, positioned at launch pad-3 of Integrated Test Range at Abdul Kalam Island, roared into the sky to hit its target at 11:18 AM.

The test has been successful, said a source in the DRDO.

The AAD used its own mobile launcher, secure data link for interception, independent tracking and homing capabilities and radar systems, the source added.

Earlier in April 2015, the AAD missile had failed to hit the target missile during a similar test from the test range. The missile nosedived into Bay of Bengal a few moments after taking off from a mobile launcher. In July 26, 2010 also the test was unsuccessful.

Even though the missile was again tested against an electronic target on November 22, 2015, the actual test targeting a real missile was pending since then as the system was not ready.

Today’s success is likely to pave the way for its induction in the armed forces. Any more updates on this will be most welcome.

Notably, Advanced Air Defence (AAD) is an anti-ballistic missile designed to intercept incoming ballistic missiles in the endo-atmosphere at an altitude of 40 km.

Does anybody has any idea whether the AAD missile used here was a composite modified version of old AAD? Couple of years ago there was a discussion on all composite light weight high speed version of AAD. I think one was tested but it had failed immediately after launch.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 16 May 2016 12:13

It is likely that our airbases will also come under (conventional) BM attacks by our friendly northern neighbours in case of a conflict, they'll also need BMD no?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 May 2016 13:36

So far BMD has been tested 12 times (9 endo-atmospheric & 3 exo-atmospheric) with 10 of them turning out to be successful.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 May 2016 13:40

Vipul Dave wrote:Does anybody has any idea whether the AAD missile used here was a composite modified version of old AAD? Couple of years ago there was a discussion on all composite light weight high speed version of AAD. I think one was tested but it had failed immediately after launch.

The November 22, 2015 test was an upgraded AAD missile. I assume that it was carbon composite one.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 May 2016 18:24

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 May 2016 18:41

AAD interceptor looks to have much faster acceleration , Nice Video

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 May 2016 19:07

Sorry if OT/posted before, but I sure hope there is more to this than what this report indicates

Nothing against importing a reverse-injineering a few Israeli/chinese/North korean/Iranian/ Eskimo missiles, but why cancel procurement of domestic system?

8 seconds to launch instead of 4-6. Yes, but you gotta have one within range, and that will cost 10 times more with import system (in the numbers needed) than with India-genius system.
Besides, all it needs is either more warning time/faster communications and faster computation of the solution, and/or faster-burning propellant for the first rocket stage, and maybe a swifter countdown to launch, like what they use on the IGLAs. So buy the damn system and upgrade it!

This seems way too much like chalta hai, old story of phoren / baksheesh. Maybe DRDO should be allowed to export to, say, Syria via Russia, to get some field experience?

Besides, where were these requirements when the Army accepted the missile?

"Control sophistication" This is just MATH, for Houristan's sake! Do it, upgrade the software, load it up.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 16 May 2016 20:10

The improved AAD is also canister launched.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 May 2016 21:24

Ulan sir, discussion on this is on previous 2 pages.

Long story short, Akash is an extremely capable system. IA now wants a lightweight SAM to accompany its formations (which means all the high power radars accompanying Akash wont be there, IA's choice). For this a program already exists, QRSAM.

The reaction time stuff is BS and usual media. As are claims on Navy (Akash was never meant for them).
AKash program is a runaway success with 15 squadrons ordered for IAF, 2 regiments for IA, so expect presstitutes to constantly run it down and claim otherwise.

Also AF wants Akash Mk2, so that program is also likely going on.

While our idiot journalists are screaming blow to make in India, and assorted folks elsewhere are picking that up and tut tutting, Akash orders went from 8 squadrons to 15 for IAF. IA orders (equal to around 6-8 IAF squadrons) remain as is. A new QRSAM program is in advanced stage of development, MRSAM is on way to induction & Akash Mk2 is also in development per reports. So much for the doom and gloom perpetrated by some sections of the media who are shameless.

BTW, ACM will take a flight on the Tejas. Something for a certain Mongolian to note who waged a spirited campaign against vested interests who wanted to have the program shut down. And it went on.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 May 2016 01:26

Oh, good. Don't have time to fight both missile ddms and California Textbook horse-behinds

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 17 May 2016 01:46

So based on the video is it safe to assume Ashwin is a HTK missile.

John · Post by **John** » 17 May 2016 01:46

Karan,

Based on what i can recollect on discussion here long time ago plan was for akash to be fitted on our vessels. It was one of reasons why navy choose to go with Shtil 1 rather than Navalised tor (it also helped that we operated Kashmir which was earlier variant).

IMO the single arm launcher should be compatible with Akash which solves the need extensive refit to fit in a new launcher. the only challenging aspect would have been the FCR.

But however due to delays Akash and IN's need for VLS based system to deal with saturation attacks the need naval Akash diminished. There is still scope for AAD being adopted but it depends on whether drdo can focus to developing it ASAP and adopting it ( perhaps dual pack it) to be launched from uvls cells used for brahmos/nirbhay.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 17 May 2016 01:52

The integrated (simultaneous) endo/exo test simulating an enhanced threat scenario was supposed to be done last year.Eagerly awaiting the same.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 17 May 2016 01:54

Unless Akash is canisterized there is no way IN will accept it. Anyway with LRSAM on the way the chances are even less.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 May 2016 02:24

John wrote:Karan,

Based on what i can recollect on discussion here long time ago plan was for akash to be fitted on our vessels. It was one of reasons why navy choose to go with Shtil 1 rather than Navalised tor (it also helped that we operated Kashmir which was earlier variant).

IMO the single arm launcher should be compatible with Akash which solves the need extensive refit to fit in a new launcher. the only challenging aspect would have been the FCR.

But however due to delays Akash and IN's need for VLS based system to deal with saturation attacks the need naval Akash diminished. There is still scope for AAD being adopted but it depends on whether drdo can focus to developing it ASAP and adopting it ( perhaps dual pack it) to be launched from uvls cells used for brahmos/nirbhay.

John, I attended some Aero India or other event where the Akash guys were there. They had zero discussion any IN plan to fit Akash on Naval vessels. There was clearly no serious effort on a funded program either. Net, only two programs mentioned were AF and IA repeatedly. This was the original IGMDP plan as well. Also, Trishul flopped w/the Navy because it could never fix the multipath reflection issue.But why would Navy ask for Akash when Trishul was yet to fix this. The Akash trials have done it - its a big step for us when we think of naval SAMs and radars.
However, by the time this was done, LRSAM program was launched. Why would Navy move from 100km LRSAM to 25km Akash? Akash surveillacnce radar is on Naval ships already, but for fire control, you'd need 4 sided Rajendra too. Again, why all this effort when you have EL/M-2252 or whatever, with LRSAM in the works.
DDM will anyways do the the usual politically slanted DRDO bashing based on some half baked claims fed to them by rival vendors and arms agents.

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 May 2016 02:44

^^^

Yep. I don't recall reading anything about Akash for the IN ships ever. There were no plans as such. Only Trishul was designed for tri-service role. DDMs (along with our poor General) are pulling stuff from a hat

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 May 2016 02:51

Jhujar wrote:

Thermal video (0.44 onwards) is the best! Captures the full engagement from launch to target destruction. The finale is worth it.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 17 May 2016 03:33

Ok ..towards the end of that video , on the top it says AADNov12-000. Does that mean this is an old video? India did successfully test AAD in Nov 2012.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 May 2016 05:45

UlanBatori wrote:Sorry if OT/posted before, but I sure hope there is more to this than what this report indicates

First off. Is this story even true?

Second, if true is this another case of Army searching for a Churkendoose?

The last time the army searched for a Churkendoose of a weapon that shoots all calibers and fits all environments and all situations there was none in the world. There was a scathing critique of the Army's process of stating requirements where a committee of people tried to outdo each other in adding yet another unattainable spec to an already insane list. I say this because the Army has actually done this before. No myth. Hence the INSAS stays.

I tried to Google for missile reaction times and 5-10 sec is common. Some manpads have a less than 4 second time - but manpads are different from a system that is supposed to detect aircraft more than 25 km out and hit them within 25 km. Targets are detected from 300 km away and tracked from 60 km. In 8 seconds a plane 60 km away closing in at 1000 kmph would have closed in by less than 30 km and would barely have entered the Akash kill zone - so I can't see what is so bad about an 8 second reaction time.

Someone edumacate me please

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 May 2016 06:40

My problem with all these phoren acquisitions is that there is no way to get the numbers needed in a real war. 40 French this, 100 Israeli that... and the budget is gone. And they starve the indigenous systems and deny them the experience of 1000 field tests.

There is ****NO**** way for imported anything to match the low costs and large numbers (and continuing improvements) that come with indigenous development and production. It's not just about "Make in India" and jobs, it is about surviving in war beyond the first day.

So they will go out and get some token number of Israeli SAM systems. And put them where exactly? Won't the Pakis know these? Won't the Chinese know these? They are going to come obligingly along the paths that the Jarnails specify?

Look at Syria - there's a real war, albeit one where there is no all-out air war. Thousands upon thousands of missiles and bombs used. To have any chance of defending against China, India needs TENS OF THOUSANDS of missile systems. Within the first half day, the 'first line' defence systems will have been either blown up in pre-emptive attack, or simply USED UP in countering the first wave of Chinese attacks.

No one in the Indian establishment appears to 'get' that simple fact, when they go out looking all important on these phoren junkets to blow the foreign exchange reserve on a few token shiny toys - and collect the baksheesh. There's no evidence of serious production of even rifle bullets, let alone artillery shells or missiles.

The Kargil revelations - no shells for the Bofors, no parkas, no boots... were utterly pathetic. OK, a few improvements, but this business of cancelling domestic acquisitions is nothing short of criminal.

How did the Israelis get to develop these? They bought / begged systems from France, US, stole Russian systems, then kept putting them all together and testing them (usually on the Palestinians, sometimes on the Syrians and Lebanese) until they got them right. And now they have the Iron Dome. This is because their people are serious about defence. Can't say the same about the Indian establishment.

Sorry, end rant.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 17 May 2016 08:37

UlanBatori wrote:My problem with all these phoren acquisitions is that there is no way to get the numbers needed in a real war. 40 French this, 100 Israeli that... and the budget is gone. And they starve the indigenous systems and deny them the experience of 1000 field tests.

There is ****NO**** way for imported anything to match the low costs and large numbers (and continuing improvements) that come with indigenous development and production. It's not just about "Make in India" and jobs, it is about surviving in war beyond the first day.

So they will go out and get some token number of Israeli SAM systems. And put them where exactly? Won't the Pakis know these? Won't the Chinese know these? They are going to come obligingly along the paths that the Jarnails specify?

Look at Syria - there's a real war, albeit one where there is no all-out air war. Thousands upon thousands of missiles and bombs used. To have any chance of defending against China, India needs TENS OF THOUSANDS of missile systems. Within the first half day, the 'first line' defence systems will have been either blown up in pre-emptive attack, or simply USED UP in countering the first wave of Chinese attacks.

No one in the Indian establishment appears to 'get' that simple fact, when they go out looking all important on these phoren junkets to blow the foreign exchange reserve on a few token shiny toys - and collect the baksheesh. There's no evidence of serious production of even rifle bullets, let alone artillery shells or missiles.

The Kargil revelations - no shells for the Bofors, no parkas, no boots... were utterly pathetic. OK, a few improvements, but this business of cancelling domestic acquisitions is nothing short of criminal.

How did the Israelis get to develop these? They bought / begged systems from France, US, stole Russian systems, then kept putting them all together and testing them (usually on the Palestinians, sometimes on the Syrians and Lebanese) until they got them right. And now they have the Iron Dome. This is because their people are serious about defence. Can't say the same about the Indian establishment.

Sorry, end rant.

NO NO. It is NOT a rant.

Just a question ? Will a Israeili janaral or neta or MP/MLA ever critisise and/or not buy a Israeli system over a phoren maal, for a few (million) shekels ? And what if he is caught ?

Will a Israeili DDM critisise an Israeli system over a phoren maal, for a few (million) shekels ? And what if he is caught ?

Your answer is the answer to a large nos of question on BRF

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 May 2016 09:03

The way Gen. Katoch headlined that article itself was petty. One thing to raise concerns, another to openly make such disaparaging insinuations on a national success story. By making such claims & generally making insinuations it reduces our deterrence capability. Some moron beard in PHQ like Javed Nasir during Kargil will convince himself that those bleddy Hindus are weak and we can attack with impunity.

Some of our generals on the one hand bemoan how the world does not take India seriously. And then spend as much time as possible openly running down fellow institutions or peer services.

I still remember how post Kargil, multiple folks like these went on and wrote extremely contemptuous articles on the IAF. Good for us, most of that is now offline & no longer archived. One would have thought reading those, IAF was the opponent, not TSPA. It took Lamberts article on IAF in Kargil plus Cope India exercises to suddenly wake people up to how well the IAF is really trained.

Seriously, one is not asking for self censorship, but the language used is atrocious.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 May 2016 10:58

IAF never learnt importance of simple thing like Chaff dispensers inspite of ten year Afghanisatan War till it came to bite it in the @ss in Kargill. Now, will we learn from Syria, importance of night fighting and also what about mass induction of DIRCM and Sat Comms? No we want Rafale without weapons. We are not satisfied even with T-50 but we want to spend 10 years refining it to super never available aircraft. So only super costly Rafale is answer to all problemos.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 17 May 2016 11:17

Gyan wrote:IAF never learnt importance of simple thing like Chaff dispensers inspite of ten year Afghanisatan War till it came to bite it in the @ss in Kargill. Now, will we learn from Syria, importance of night fighting and also what about mass induction of DIRCM and Sat Comms? No we want Rafale without weapons. We are not satisfied even with T-50 but we want to spend 10 years refining it to super never available aircraft. So only super costly Rafale is answer to all problemos.

I thought IAF begged and pleaded for Chaff dispensers (CMDS) and only got after they drew blood (their own).

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 May 2016 12:35

Brass has a way of covering its @ss. How much begging and pleading they did compared to AJT, Mirage 2000? Just like the begging they are doing for LCA, DIRCM, MAWS, DRFM etc compared to Rafales, Apache?

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 17 May 2016 16:27

shiv wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Sorry if OT/posted before, but I sure hope there is more to this than what this report indicates
First off. Is this story even true?

Second, if true is this another case of Army searching for a Churkendoose?

The last time the army searched for a Churkendoose of a weapon that shoots all calibers and fits all environments and all situations there was none in the world. There was a scathing critique of the Army's process of stating requirements where a committee of people tried to outdo each other in adding yet another unattainable spec to an already insane list. I say this because the Army has actually done this before. No myth. Hence the INSAS stays.

I tried to Google for missile reaction times and 5-10 sec is common. Some manpads have a less than 4 second time - but manpads are different from a system that is supposed to detect aircraft more than 25 km out and hit them within 25 km. Targets are detected from 300 km away and tracked from 60 km. In 8 seconds a plane 60 km away closing in at 1000 kmph would have closed in by less than 30 km and would barely have entered the Akash kill zone - so I can't see what is so bad about an 8 second reaction time.

Someone edumacate me please

Trishul has 4-6 Sec reaction time. Most cases it managed less than 5. Panwallah says there is no confirmitive reaction time and it differs every time +or -. Reaction time concern is with high speed low flying targets which cuts down the Horizon of the tracking system.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 May 2016 19:04

Ah! So there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for this. Jarnailji is spreading misinformation like the best of us.

They need a portable, fast-reaction system to deal with point defence against low-flying, fast intruders. Lashkar-e-havaii-bandars. Makes a lot of sense. Getting Israeli tech to buy time and experience is not a bad idea at all, it just complements Akash mass-production. As for "v not buying any more Akash" well... I don't think anyone needs to know whether they are or not.

Can the Israeli system deal with hypersonic-cruise thingies I wonder... I don't know anything that can stop those, short of the Teesra-Aankh-27 (TA-27) Killer Beams developed by ADA, which as I last heard have already been tested.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 May 2016 19:32

My reaction to the pressttitues like that Con-dit dude, is go jump.. India will advance despite these turds.

Only a handful of credible journos like Tarmak, RPrasannan from week, TSR from hindu etc.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 May 2016 19:35

Anyways, QRSAM - here are my predictions

Sensors
XBand Radar capable of Track on Move, Search on Move, AESA - am not happy w/choice of band since most SPJs are X Band anyhow. But if its sufficiently sophisticated then jamming it won't be easy. Plus x band has highest resolution. Even Khan BMD radar moved to X Band for that.
SEOS - Stabilized sight with CCD, IIR, LRF
Missile - Astra derivative, 30km range, canisterized. Am thinking some 4 per radar + vehicle at least.
BMP based tracked platform
One C3I BMP based vehicle to link multiple firing units together.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 May 2016 20:10

Gyan, The helicopter lost in Kargil was the only one without chaff dispensers (told by one of those in the know). All the rest had them. I wish you use some of the gnan your name suggests.
Continuous rants don't help.

UB the problem is the woeful underfunding and limited testing budget for the R&D program. This leads to long gestation from lab prototype to production grade.
Meantime:
- Adversaries get imported force multipliers for free from US and China.
- the forces get tired and also demand imported maal.
- politicians get kickback from foreign arms peddlers
- Which is why the local R&D program was underfunded!