Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 08 Jun 2016 10:15

^^
Unkil, be rest assured, a big number of drones are on the way

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Jun 2016 10:19

^^ IIRC,this should sound the death knell for the Rustom project.

From whatever i heard from chai and paan wallahs in ADE, the project was in pretty dismal shape ( despite all the brave faces being put out to public) but was being persisted due to user pressure. Now that path is cleared for the top end maal, will mostly end as a TD.

nits · Post by **nits** » 08 Jun 2016 12:03

sudhan wrote:Afaik, the restriction applies for non MTCR signatories. Signatories and members are free to sell longer ranged maal.

Oh so now we can't sell or Buy Missilees to \ from China; How disappointing

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Jun 2016 12:33

deleted*

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Jun 2016 14:17

Guess this will be soon in IAF .. the HELLADS looks interesting !!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 08 Jun 2016 14:21

kit wrote:

Guess this will be soon in IAF .. the HELLADS looks interesting !!

Not sure on the C being exported (although the media seems to think so) but the HELLADS is unlikely to be mounted on the Predator Family, anytime soon, and is further unlikely to be integrated as a weapons system (beyond simple testing) on a drone, in the next 10-15 years. SOCOM is integrating a DEW on the AC-130, and beyond that there are more appropriate platforms for it given that the Avenger isn't really in widespread service even in the USAF.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Jun 2016 17:20

rohiths wrote:Import Mela will begin on drones and long range missiles

What is wrong with importing drones we have struggled to keep pace in drone development. Simply cannot develop a product line for a decade and by the time it hits production its long obsolete. Drone development is under rapid innovation need to restructure internally if we really serious about donestic drone development.

Will · Post by **Will** » 08 Jun 2016 17:50

The private sector needs to be involved in a big way. The DPSUs just cant keep pace with developments.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 08 Jun 2016 18:19

Does becoming an MTCR signatory mean that Brahmos range can go beyond 300km?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Jun 2016 19:41

If Brahmos goes beyond 300KM then we cannot export

But we can have a Brahmos-ER which can go beyond 300KM

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Jun 2016 19:43

Akash NG to be ready in two years: BEL Chief

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jun 2016 19:57

drones is one area where we have fallen way behind even medium level powers.
from nishant size to global hawk we have vast needs and our rustom2 seems to be MIA even to fill one niche in that spectrum.
we continue to import searchers and herons in the low end with no sign of a domestic project

let us not even talk of reapers and global hawks.

we totally took our eyes off the ball in the RMA in this space.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 08 Jun 2016 21:36

Kakarat wrote:Akash NG to be ready in two years: BEL Chief

Addressing the media during here on Wednesday, Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) Chairman and Managing Director S K Sharma said that the upgraded version will have a new radar and seeker.

Active radar homing? SARH?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Jun 2016 21:53

Given how old the Nishant/Lakshay programs are & our serious needs, we should have become world leaders in UAVs. Goes to show that necessity is not necessarily the mother of invention. We just didn't have vision that this could be an RMA, as Singha says.

The under-performance here is also reflected in the Nirbhay & low-thrust turbofan programs. These 2 projects have also been languishing. IMO, the whole UAV, cruise-missile, turbofan program needs to be put under one unified structure with a leader like APJ who will ream people's asses if they won't deliver. People from the Tejas team would be good candidates to fill up leadership roles here.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Jun 2016 21:57

Prem,
The fear was using MTCR the West would crack down even more on the missile programs.
Hence the drone/cruise missile programs were on slow tracked. Recall the Tomahawk was considered game changer in the strategic deterrent game when introduced in air and sea versions.
So CMs and drones were bothersome as they break down deterrence.
Not helpful while India was placing its Missile based deterrent.

Now those can be fast tracked.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 Jun 2016 23:20

40 KMs range seems pretty good.

Nice! So new seeker and perhaps new dual pulse motors to give the same form factor a longer range? That would really be efficient short turn around time for tests and acceptance. And they could test both independently and merge them in the end.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 09 Jun 2016 01:33

sum wrote:^^ IIRC,this should sound the death knell for the Rustom project.

From whatever i heard from chai and paan wallahs in ADE, the project was in pretty dismal shape ( despite all the brave faces being put out to public) but was being persisted due to user pressure. Now that path is cleared for the top end maal, will mostly end as a TD.

Got the same impression myself.

Question is WHY?

Sure its a complex project but so is designing a long range cruise missile or a modern turbo prop trainer (a MALE UAV being a sort of fusion of the two).

Could improved access to components (Honeywell/Rotax/P&W engines, Moog actuators etc.) available with MTCR membership, possibly turnaround the indigenous UAV effort?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 09 Jun 2016 02:58

ramana wrote:Prem,
The fear was using MTCR the West would crack down even more on the missile programs.
Hence the drone/cruise missile programs were on slow tracked. Recall the Tomahawk was considered game changer in the strategic deterrent game when introduced in air and sea versions.
So CMs and drones were bothersome as they break down deterrence.
Not helpful while India was placing its Missile based deterrent.

Now those can be fast tracked.

Ramana ji, this is interesting and quite plausible! What is the source of this thesis?

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Jun 2016 04:52

Viv S wrote:
Question is WHY?

Sure its a complex project but so is designing a long range cruise missile or a modern turbo prop trainer (a MALE UAV being a sort of fusion of the two).

Could improved access to components (Honeywell/Rotax/P&W engines, Moog actuators etc.) available with MTCR membership, possibly turnaround the indigenous UAV effort?

Not too sure why since not much is talked of it but atleast one panwallah was very critical of the L1 mania of the DSPUs which leads to very substandard vendors being selected since they offered lowest bids and the products they supply lead to severe problems during integration.

Heard that both Nirbhay and Rustom were in same boat and were in really choppy waters with top-brass bearing down heavily to clean up the act or move on. Now with MCTR, im sure that atleast the Rustom project will have started its countdown!

Hope im wrong and all goes well but seeing the user feedback and harsh words on even a old project like Nishant, ADE themselves arent keeping their fingers crossed!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Jun 2016 05:44

sudeepJ, my own thinking connecting the dots from first arrival of C/Ms in 1970s to INF treaty and evolution of drones.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Jun 2016 07:16

Akash NG to be ready in two years: BEL Chief

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Jun 2016 11:23

So can we buy say Kalibr cruise missiles for our Akula now? If not then how to get brahmos-er?

Kakarat wrote:If Brahmos goes beyond 300KM then we cannot export

But we can have a Brahmos-ER which can go beyond 300KM

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Jun 2016 11:54

What I meant was even if Brahmos can go beyond 300KM, we cannot tell that as we will not be able to export it because of MTCR commitments. But we can always say we have developed a extended range Brahmos with the same external dimensions and call it Brahmos-ER. Anyway I don't think it will serve any purpose other than satisfying us

Kalibr cruise missiles is the Russian domestic version Club a subsonic missile how can it become Supersonic Brahmos-ER?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 09 Jun 2016 17:37

Brahmos-290 for export;
Brahmos-500 for our own use;

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Jun 2016 17:40

My question is:

Can we export or import missiles with range>300km from MTCR countries?

If Russia is legally allowed to help us develop brahmos-er, then they can pretty much export kalibr to us as well. And we can export brahmos-er to other MTCR signatories

Kakarat wrote:What I meant was even if Brahmos can go beyond 300KM, we cannot tell that as we will not be able to export it because of MTCR commitments. But we can always say we have developed a extended range Brahmos with the same external dimensions and call it Brahmos-ER. Anyway I don't think it will serve any purpose other than satisfying us

Kalibr cruise missiles is the Russian domestic version Club a subsonic missile how can it become Supersonic Brahmos-ER?

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 09 Jun 2016 17:48

With China on its mind, India set to export BrahMos cruise missile to Vietnam

Agencies | Jun 9, 2016, 04.40 PM IST

NEW DELHI: India has stepped up efforts to sell an advanced cruise missile system to Vietnam and has at least 15 more markets in its sights, a push experts say reflects concerns in New Delhi about China's growing military assertiveness.

The Narendra Modi government has ordered BrahMos Aerospace, which produces the missiles, to accelerate sales to a list of five countries topped by Vietnam, according to a government note viewed by Reuters and previously unreported.
The others are Indonesia, South Africa, Chile and Brazil.
The Philippines is at the top of a second list of 11 nations including Malaysia, Thailand and United Arab Emirates, countries which had "expressed interest but need further discussions and analysis", the undated note added.

It has railed against China's military assistance to arch-rival Pakistan and privately fumed over Chinese submarines docking in Sri Lanka, just off the toe of India.
"Policymakers in Delhi were long constrained by the belief that advanced defence cooperation with Washington or Hanoi could provoke aggressive and undesirable responses from Beijing," said Jeff M Smith, director of Asian Security Programs at the American Foreign Policy Council in Washington.
"Prime Minister Modi and his team of advisers have essentially turned that thinking on its head, concluding that stronger defence relationships with the US, Japan, and Vietnam actually put India on stronger footing in its dealings with China."

The Indian government is also considering a proposal to offer Vietnam a battleship armed with the BrahMos missiles instead of just the missile battery, the source said.
"A frigate integrated with the BrahMos can play a decisive role, it can be a real deterrent in the South China Sea," the source said, adding New Delhi would have to expand the line of credit to cover the cost of the ship. Indian warships are armed with configurations of eight or 16 BrahMos missiles each, while sets of two or four would go on smaller vessels.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Jun 2016 13:09

FAQ on MTCR

tejk · Post by **tejk** » 10 Jun 2016 21:11

="sudeepj"I remember the discussion many moons ago during Brahmos missile testing about whether US can really "turn off" the GPS over a specific geographical area for a specific duration.

Mountains can cause some satellites that are being tracked by the receiver to suddenly drop in/out of view. Unless the receiver software is designed to be robust against such interference, it can cause outliers, outages, even receiver reboots. Without proper tests being run with the receivers opened up for debugging, it simply cant be stated that 'US turned off GPS signals...'. Its merely a conjecture grounded in the general adverse feelings the US and Indian armed forces had for each other. There is absolutely no evidence to back such a conjecture.

Saar,
My 2 paisa.,
Ionospheric disturbance also leads to gps errors and availability.
Irnss s band will address these issues and ensure availability.

http://www.sws.bom.gov.au/Satellite/6/3
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/impacts/space- ... ps-systems

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 10 Jun 2016 21:18

tejk wrote:
="sudeepj"I remember the discussion many moons ago during Brahmos missile testing about whether US can really "turn off" the GPS over a specific geographical area for a specific duration.

Mountains can cause some satellites that are being tracked by the receiver to suddenly drop in/out of view. Unless the receiver software is designed to be robust against such interference, it can cause outliers, outages, even receiver reboots. Without proper tests being run with the receivers opened up for debugging, it simply cant be stated that 'US turned off GPS signals...'. Its merely a conjecture grounded in the general adverse feelings the US and Indian armed forces had for each other. There is absolutely no evidence to back such a conjecture.
Saar,
My 2 paisa.,
Ionospheric disturbance also leads to gps errors and availability.
Irnss s band will address these issues and ensure availability.

http://www.sws.bom.gov.au/Satellite/6/3
http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/impacts/space- ... ps-systems

Ionospheric disturbances large enough to cause issues with GPS availability are rare. The symptoms described by Deejay - good positions until some location and then sudden jumps in specific locations appears to be related to mountains obscuring satellites. IRNSS is a more modern system and will bring a huge advantage to the Indian army/naval forces.

vonkabra · Post by **vonkabra** » 10 Jun 2016 21:33

Drone imports from the US can lead to an interesting scenario. If we import Predators and use them to target terrorists in Pakistan, how will they figure out whether its the CIA or RAW who is responsible?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 10 Jun 2016 22:06

Its better not to buy .. Just lease the ones operating in Af Pak, and let loose a few hellfires @ dawoods and LeT chiefs musharrafs ..

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 12 Jun 2016 17:37

India to test Prahar next week

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Jun 2016 17:58

nirav wrote:Its better not to buy .. Just lease the ones operating in Af Pak, and let loose a few hellfires @ dawoods and LeT chiefs musharrafs ..

wonder if the indian intelligence agencies can have a trial run with the Predators inside Pakistan

.. just for experience

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Jun 2016 21:53

Regarding Prahaar/Pragati test, Rout says that the missile was "kept under wraps" for obvious reasons. I'm not sure what's obvious about it. Callous is a word that comes to mind. For a missile tested first in 2011 to not even have repeat tests till now is shameful.

MTCR cannot be an excuse for the ranges of this missile (150 Km).

I think under Modi/Parikkar, someone got a kick up their rear-side to test/perfect/induct it locally, to ensure that export-efforts are successful

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 13 Jun 2016 21:59

Who knows? Maybe Prahaar was tested under guise of the multiple Prithvi missiles. Prahaar would be ideal for IA and can be provided to ANA to counter the Pakis along with our upgraded grads (which will be replace by the new Pinaka-I-mk2).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Jun 2016 22:32

Domestic Companies to Upgrade Russian Pechora Systems

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /85827384/

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Jun 2016 10:08

X Posting a link posted by Lisa ji in the STFU thread and also quoting a relevant section from the link.

Lisa wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.in/chirayu-th ... 58514.html

3 Reasons Why Pak's Growing Nuclear Arsenal Is Not Giving India Sleepless Nights

“The development of India's Pradyumna and Ashwin interceptor missiles, supported by the constantly improving Swordfish Radar, are seen by Islamabad as "upsetting the strategic balance".

The author is Chirayu Thakkar and he is (as posted in Huff Post)

Chirayu Thakkar is extensively trained in Religious Studies particularly in Hinduism. Currently, he is associated with the University of Chester, UK. He writes on the interplay between religion and various other disciplines, especially in South Asia.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Jun 2016 12:16

So an expert in religious studies is an expert in defense matters!

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Jun 2016 12:21

Ya. Since they were said to be named as Pradhumna and Ashwin, he is an expert on them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jun 2016 13:34

http://www.huffingtonpost.in/chirayu-th ... 58514.html
I read the original article and I would love to see more articles like that rather than the self flagellation and self criticism we see so often on here.

I wouldn't be totally contemptuous of the fellow, but my opinion is OT for this thread. We have discussed in the Western Universalism thread that Western "knowledge" that we all study splits up knowledge into parts like "History", "Geography" "Science" etc. Ancient Indian knowledge came (and was taught) as a bundle - with "strategic studies" mixed up with "psychology" mixed up with astronomy.

Western scholars pooh poohed this as utter rubbish, but the fact is that few of us on BRF are any more qualified than this guy to comment on defence issues. My own work and background is also useless although I fill this forum up with my "expert comments" and I am accepted only because I "belong" to this club. Once in a while when someone dislikes what I say he may take a pot shot at my professional background but by and large we accept each others "expertise" on BRF even thougt the other guy may be a businessman, lawyer or accountant, doctor or school student. We often kick out people like B Raman and real ex Armed forces people because we think we are more knowledgeable and more patriotic and have each others' support in slapping each others' backs and congratulating each other.

It was western observers who decided that Hindu texts were "religious studies" - which many are not. When we refer to our own people from such backgrounds we tend to echo Western viewpoint - "the colonized speaking from the colonizer's mindset". Let us cut it out and enjoy the article. We can get back and criticize those names once we confirm that our ADS or AMD or whatever has not had those names as proposed ones. What the man says is no worse than "Rambha" or "Katrina" or other name we choose to give for stuff we admire