Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Sep 2016 19:04

Mach 2+ would be the average speed of LRSAM across its full range , Top Speed of LRSAM should be around Mach 4 plus that compares well with says Aster-30 or 9M96 missile of S-400 series or Patriot PAC-3 http://pvo.guns.ru/book/fakel/new_gen.htm

John · Post by **John** » 24 Sep 2016 19:22

Top speed of LRSAM is around Mach 5 - 7

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2015/12/ ... -navy.html

About five-to-seven kilometres short of the target, a seeker on the interceptor’s nose switched on, locking it onto the target. To accelerate the interceptor, which was by now merely coasting, the dual-pulse motor fired for a second time. This increased the interceptor’s velocity up to Mach 5-7, enabling it to manoeuvre sharply in tandem with the target’s evasive zigzags.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Sep 2016 19:54

Vivek Raghuvanshi wrote:"The Javelin will not hit either the home-grown Nag or the Israeli Spike program, as there is room for all these ATGMs," the MoD source added.

Bhonsle said," There will be a time lag between induction of an Indo-American Javelin, thus Spike will remain on the acquisition book, Nag remains a technology demonstrator so far and unless it is proved in operational trials will not be a serious future contender."

I can only hope the news is false otherwise the MoD mandarins & IA brass have well and truly lost it.

Pick one. Buy that one. At this point, it doesn't even matter which one. Don't buy both for heaven sake! Whichever missile is selected can co-exist with SAMHO if it must.

Half our LUH orders given away to Kamov. Attack helos orders to Boeing. Boutique sized orders for the Rafale (expensive enough to mess up budgets, large enough to mess up logistics) to be joined by a new Western fighter type. Two or three types of SRSAMs (I can't keep track anymore). Hell, if the MTA project hadn't fallen through, we'd be looking at two types of medium airlifters too.

In a country as diverse as India, it is expected that the govt will do its utmost to keep everybody happy (a little something for everything). But it seems we're determined to treat the world's defence contractors with the same benevolence.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Sep 2016 19:59

John wrote:Top speed of LRSAM is around Mach 5 - 7

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2015/12/ ... -navy.html

About five-to-seven kilometres short of the target, a seeker on the interceptor’s nose switched on, locking it onto the target. To accelerate the interceptor, which was by now merely coasting, the dual-pulse motor fired for a second time. This increased the interceptor’s velocity up to Mach 5-7, enabling it to manoeuvre sharply in tandem with the target’s evasive zigzags.

That looks like end game speed firing dual pulse motor .........some how Ajai is saying things like increasing speed to M 5-7 will enable it to manoeuvre sharply .......high speed with significantly increase the G load while manouvering

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 24 Sep 2016 21:39

Thanks Tsarkar, Shiv, John et al for clarifying.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Sep 2016 22:25

Its quite clear nag is dead and perhaps helina also

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 24 Sep 2016 23:58

Singha-Sir: you are being very unfair with our Army. Please give them some time to figure out where Nag fits in their Orbat. Like a decade or so.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Sep 2016 12:07

http://www.defencenews.in/article/The-C ... al_Pradesh

The Consequences of BrahMos Deployment in Arunachal Pradesh
Sunday, September 25, 2016
By: VOICE OF JOURNALIST

The deployment of BrahMos missile is bound to increase the competitiveness and rivalry between China–India relations and will have a negative impact on the stability of the region. The BrahMos is a new game piece in India’s tense relationship with China. China claims parts of Arunachal Pradesh as its own and both sides have contesting claims on the Line of Actual Control (LAC), which is the de-facto border between the two countries. China has warned India that increasing troops presence and the move to deploy BrahMos cruise missiles in Arunachal Pradesh can escalate tensions on the border.

Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) has strongly reacted against this move of India. India deploying supersonic missiles on the border has exceeded its own needs for self-defense and poses a serious threat to China’s Tibet and Yunnan provinces. Military buildups along the Sino-Indian border have increased recently as last month India deployed nearly 100 tanks to the Ladakh region. In reaction, Beijing cautioned of possible economic consequences.

The BrahMos cruise missile is stealthy, fast and extremely difficult to shoot down. The BrahMos is a supersonic cruise missile which can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land. It can carry warheads weighing up to 300kg, and strike targets on land and at sea. It has been in service with the army since 2007 and is currently being tested for use by the Air Force’s Sukhoi-30 fighters.

It also has become a point of controversy in a complicated web of overlapping alliances between India, China, Russia and potentially Vietnam. Nevertheless Vietnamese Navy isn’t going to match China’s rapidly expanding fleet any time soon. But small Vietnamese ships with BrahMos missiles could pose a major threat to China’s larger military vessel. Therefore, India may attempt to cultivate an alliance with Vietnam in order to counterbalance China.

The supersonic BrahMos cruise missile has dive attack capabilities, and fits in the Sino-Indian border where it’s mostly mountain landscape. BrahMos with “steep div”” capabilities suited to mountain warfare. BrahMos began in the 1990s as a joint project between Russia and India to develop an Indian version of the P-800 Oniks cruise missile. The missile’s name is a portmanteau of the rivers Brahmaputra and Moskva in India and Russia, respectively. Technically speaking, the BrahMos is actually slightly faster at Mach 2.8 than the P-800. It also weighs twice as much as a Tomahawk, at six thousand pounds.

The BrahMos isn’t just an antishipping weapon it also can hit ground-based targets, and is ideal for exactitude attacks against fixed installations such as radars, command centers, airbases and enemy missile batteries. It can also potentially carry a 660-pound nuclear warhead, though that doesn’t appear to be its primary projected use.

Cruise missiles are designed to be fired at extended ranges from their targets so as not to expose the launching platform to enemy retaliation. During the Cold War, Russia developed unusual style of cruise missile designed to take out American aircraft carriers. These flew over the speed of sound to better evade the carrier’s defenses, which include air-to-air missiles fired by fighters, surface-to-air missiles and Gatling-cannon Close-in weapon systems, or CIWS. They were also larger to increase the likelihood of achieving a kill in one hit.

The missile’s “penetration capabilities” poses a threat to China’s border regions and therefore can’t hit any of China’s major cities on its east coast while Chinese missiles can certainly strike places like New Delhi with relative ease. Disputes over lightly populated Himalaya mountains shouldn’t constitute a truly substantive conflict of interest between the two countries.

Therefore, India must focus on promoting peace “rather than the opposite,” China has said about Delhi’s decision to put advanced cruise missiles along the border in Arunachal Pradesh. Chinese Defense Ministry spokesman Wu Qian said “We hope that the Indian side can do more to benefit peace and stability along the border and in the region, rather than the opposite.”

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Sep 2016 18:15

^^^The above article has been sourced from a Pakistani website.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Sep 2016 21:02

this is a chinese one
http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/1018 ... -india.htm

btw, check the focus point of the article what strengthens the platform for air-launch. imho, there are other materials too for high heat and low signatures

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 26 Sep 2016 22:35

Viv S wrote:
Vivek Raghuvanshi wrote:"The Javelin will not hit either the home-grown Nag or the Israeli Spike program, as there is room for all these ATGMs," the MoD source added.

Bhonsle said," There will be a time lag between induction of an Indo-American Javelin, thus Spike will remain on the acquisition book, Nag remains a technology demonstrator so far and unless it is proved in operational trials will not be a serious future contender."
I can only hope the news is false otherwise the MoD mandarins & IA brass have well and truly lost it.

Pick one. Buy that one. At this point, it doesn't even matter which one. Don't buy both for heaven sake! Whichever missile is selected can co-exist with SAMHO if it must.

Half our LUH orders given away to Kamov. Attack helos orders to Boeing. Boutique sized orders for the Rafale (expensive enough to mess up budgets, large enough to mess up logistics) to be joined by a new Western fighter type. Two or three types of SRSAMs (I can't keep track anymore). Hell, if the MTA project hadn't fallen through, we'd be looking at two types of medium airlifters too.

In a country as diverse as India, it is expected that the govt will do its utmost to keep everybody happy (a little something for everything). But it seems we're determined to treat the world's defence contractors with the same benevolence.

IIRC, the Javelin is not for use by foot infantry, but intended to be mounted atop the Kestrel. Looks like the IA's ATGM inventory will soon consist of the Milan-2T, Kornet, Spike, Javelin, and Nag. I say we ought to pick up a few hundred HJ-12s as well, for true strategic independence.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Sep 2016 23:59

Mihir wrote:IIRC, the Javelin is not for use by foot infantry, but intended to be mounted atop the Kestrel.

I believe that should be the other way round. Javelin is a light infantry weapon (its the TOWs are vehicle mounted). Spike tends to be heavier & bulkier and come various variants for the infantry (tripod based), vehicle and helicopters.

Looks like the IA's ATGM inventory will soon consist of the Milan-2T, Kornet, Spike, Javelin, and Nag. I say we ought to pick up a few hundred HJ-12s as well, for true strategic independence.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Oct 2016 15:06

GIF of BrahMos Drop Test from an IAF Su-30MKI taken from Indian Air Force official video

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Oct 2016 20:44

Rafael SPICE 2000?

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 08 Oct 2016 21:32

https://twitter.com/airnewsalerts/statu ... 2215222272

Chief of Air Staff: Induction of Air to Air Astra missile, AD radars and BrahMos are some success stories of country's indigenisation effort

When did this happen?

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 08 Oct 2016 21:37

Few days ago. 'Anumathi' given for ramba's live shooting.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Oct 2016 21:40

Astra AAM seems to have been inducted into the IAF, Since IAF displays only inducted weapons on Air Force Day

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Oct 2016 22:11

Kakarat, compliments on a keen eye and great recognition skills - both Spice and Astra. I would have missed them

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Oct 2016 22:29

shiv wrote:Kakarat, compliments on a keen eye and great recognition skills - both Spice and Astra. I would have missed them

Thank you very much for the compliments sir

One more photo

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Oct 2016 22:34

What is the missile with grey nose cone?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 08 Oct 2016 22:37

Singha wrote:What is the missile with grey nose cone?

Astra AAM

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Oct 2016 01:30

Kakarat - you da man! You are like A Sharma - rare appearances and whenever you guys post, meaningful to the core. Thanks!

Now we have to track Astra orders. Finally, the Su-30 gets teeth. Perhaps IAF is deliberately keeping its progress low key.

GShankar - great to know.
Now the Su-30 gets its teeth and claws back with Astra. Hope progress on SPJs and ESM is also made clear with bulk orders of SAP-518 and details on RWR progress.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 09 Oct 2016 03:32

Karan M wrote:Kakarat - you da man! You are like A Sharma - rare appearances and whenever you guys post, meaningful to the core. Thanks!

Now we have to track Astra orders. Finally, the Su-30 gets teeth. Perhaps IAF is deliberately keeping its progress low key.

GShankar - great to know.
Now the Su-30 gets its teeth and claws back with Astra. Hope progress on SPJs and ESM is also made clear with bulk orders of SAP-518 and details on RWR progress.

FYI - viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7152&start=1120#p2054083

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 09 Oct 2016 05:20

Kakarat wrote:GIF of BrahMos Drop Test from an IAF Su-30MKI taken from Indian Air Force official video

This was too good to go uncelebrated

Love how the aircraft remains level and steady as it drops 2.55 tons.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Oct 2016 07:33

Great news on Astra.

I expect the Astra that is inducted is the dual-pulse Mk II version.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Oct 2016 07:45

Brahmos in ASM mode will have much longer range as it retains its original booster + it saves a lot of fule from gaining altitude and speed from launch aircraft.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 09 Oct 2016 09:39

Going forward we don't have to 'mask' brahmos range. We are part of MTCR and would not be surprised if brahmos range is shortly extended across all modes.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 09 Oct 2016 09:53

Karan M wrote:Kakarat - you da man! You are like A Sharma - rare appearances and whenever you guys post, meaningful to the core. Thanks!

Now we have to track Astra orders. Finally, the Su-30 gets teeth. Perhaps IAF is deliberately keeping its progress low key.

GShankar - great to know.
Now the Su-30 gets its teeth and claws back with Astra. Hope progress on SPJs and ESM is also made clear with bulk orders of SAP-518 and details on RWR progress.

So there are inductions going on un-announced?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Oct 2016 10:11

Would SAP-518 come before or during the Super-30 configuration?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 09 Oct 2016 17:17

deejay wrote:<SNIP>
So there are inductions going on un-announced?

OT for the thread but this reminded me of something - had a chat on Twitter with someone on Dhanush induction.

It seems IA has asked for 6 PPS version for simultaneous evaluation as orders are processed and to give feedback to the OFB. 03 have been handed over to the IA. Balance in pipeline. Seems a good template to follow to expedite the induction.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 09 Oct 2016 17:40

SSridhar wrote:Great news on Astra.

I expect the Astra that is inducted is the dual-pulse Mk II version.

Have we already tested the dual-pulse variant?? I was under the impression it would be some years before that could happen..

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 09 Oct 2016 18:10

tell us something about Astra AAM...seeker, range..

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Oct 2016 18:43

Kakarat wrote:

Astra AAM seems to have been inducted into the IAF, Since IAF displays only inducted weapons on Air Force Day

It also displays those under testing at ASTE. There is also a blue BrahMos in the underbelly of the Sukhoi for which only dummy drops have been carried without booster rocket motor firing.

There are two Su-30s on the strength of ASTE being used to test BrahMos & Astra, among other things.

Nonetheless reiterates the strong IAF commitment to Astra for complementing and then replacing R27 & R77.

BrahMos - along with its TEL version inducted to replace Prithvi 2 in IAF - will be used against PAF radar & other infrastructure.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Oct 2016 20:01

Having 100s of r77 has done wonders for iaf love of astra...fast track all the way unlike tejas

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 09 Oct 2016 20:24

tsarkar wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuPZF1WWEAEiMNr.jpg

Astra AAM seems to have been inducted into the IAF, Since IAF displays only inducted weapons on Air Force Day
It also displays those under testing at ASTE. There is also a blue BrahMos in the underbelly of the Sukhoi for which only dummy drops have been carried without booster rocket motor firing.

There are two Su-30s on the strength of ASTE being used to test BrahMos & Astra, among other things.

Nonetheless reiterates the strong IAF commitment to Astra for complementing and then replacing R27 & R77.

BrahMos - along with its TEL version inducted to replace Prithvi 2 in IAF - will be used against PAF radar & other infrastructure.

Thanks tsarkar, for the clarification

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 10 Oct 2016 11:56

Kakarat wrote:

Astra AAM seems to have been inducted into the IAF, Since IAF displays only inducted weapons on Air Force Day

I think that may not be fully correct. If I am not mistaken, thats a Brahmos on the belly hard point. And as we all know, thats some distance from induction.

Edit- just saw Tsarkar's post

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 10 Oct 2016 19:00

Army’s VSHORAD tender to go for re-confirmatory trials - Dinakar Peri

SAAB of Sweden has begun training engineers of Bharat Forge under a proposed joint venture in anticipation of a contract to supply air defence systems to the Army.

The move comes even as SAAB is gearing up for confirmatory trials for the Very Short Range Air Defence Systems (VSHORAD) tender, while it makes an aggressive pitch for the Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) tender.

These systems are meant to replace the legacy Russian air defence systems in service and have seen repeated delays.

In June, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), the highest authority for defence procurements, reviewed the status of both air defence programmes and decided to “keep the ongoing procurement process going in a multi-vendor situation.”

Missiles and launchers

The VSHORAD tender is intended for the Army and Navy and worth over $5.2-billion for 5,175 missiles and 1,276 single and multi-launchers with stipulated technology transfer requirement for the Defence Public Sector Undertakings (DPSU).

There are three contenders — SAAB, MBDA of France and Rosoboronexport of Russia. SAAB has fielded its RBS 70 system for the tender. The trials which began in May 2012 are still ongoing.

“Trials will continue on the VSHORAD which are called confirmatory trials in the coming months. Since all three vendors have been called for new trials all have some non-compliances,” said Bo Almqvist of SAAB, who handles air defence systems for the Swedish defence and aerospace major which clocked $3 billion in sales in 2015. Explaining their non-compliance, he said according to the Request for Proposal (RFP), the missile should weigh 25 kg, man portable firing station 25 kg and sight with power pack 20kg. “We have that in a different order. Our sighting system includes the beamer and weighs 25 kg and the firing station includes the stand with the power pack which is 20 kg. That is our non-compliance,” Dr. Almqvist added.

The stand itself was redesigned after inputs from the Indian Army that it was too heavy, he said adding that the lighter variant was now standard feature for all systems under production.

Dr. Almqvist said that both their systems are “command line of sight” which means the target is tracked till impact due to which the system is “jamming resistant” and can be aborted after launch.

Joint venture

The SRSAM requirement is for two regiments consisting of 52 missile firing units, 18 radars and 1980 missiles and is worth about Rs.12,000-14,000 crore.

SAAB has fielded its BAMSE system with a range of 20 km which is mounted on an Ashok Leyland truck. In anticipation of the order, it has begun training engineers from Kalyani Strategic Systems Ltd (KSSL), the defence arm of Bharat Forge at its facility in Karlskoga, company officials said.

“The idea is to set up an Assembly, Test and Integration (AIT) facility and some part of production as part of our long term commitment under Make in India,” Dr. Almqvist said.

The possible location of the JV is Satara in Maharashtra which will be finalised once the winner is announced likely by end of this year. KSSL is already supplying rear steering fins for the BAMSE missile by 3D printing.

The Army which is inducting the indigenously developed Akash SRSAM with a range of 25 km is looking for a quick reaction missile for which the current tender is under way.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2016 21:26

deejay wrote:So there are inductions going on un-announced?

The IAF usually does not announce the weaponry it acquires unless it is part of an larger deal (i.e. Meteor missiles coming with the Rafale). There are many missiles - especially in the air to ground role - that the IAF has but does not publicly display or announce. Maybe after a while, you might see them on a float at a Republic Day function or at an Air Force event like with the Astra.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Oct 2016 13:48

With the S-400 a done deal tomorrow,here is the latyest issue of the "F" mag with more on the subject.

http://www.forceindia.net/ShieldintheAir.aspx

OCTOBER 2016 ISSUE
Force Magazine
Shield in the Air
Russian S-400 Triumf ADMS has the potential to take bilateral military-technical cooperation to a higher level
A FORCE Report

Since India has decided to purchase the Russian S-400 Triumf Air Defence Missile System (ADMS), Prime Minister Narendra Modi should take up this issue with President Vladimir Putin during the annual summit meeting next month. After all, S-400, which is being sought by China, has come to symbolise more than a potent weapon system. It could take the bilateral military-technical cooperation to a higher level.

According to informed sources, Russia is willing to transfer a large number of critical technologies as per Indian requests. It is also agreeable to the idea of marrying India’s Akash ADMS with S-400, as well as establish a service centre to support S-400 in India. While Russia at this stage is unwilling to transfer the entire S-400 technology or sell it under the ‘Make in India’ policy with offsets obligation, much would depend upon the coming talks between the two heads of government.

S-400 is a new generation of long range ADMS which would be able to fire legacy missiles (48 N6E and 48 N6E2) of the S-300 PMU2 version from which it has evolved. In addition, it would fire four types of missiles, the short and middle range 9M96E with 40km range and 9M96E2 with 120km range, and the long range 48N6 with 250km range and the 40N6 with up to 400km range. The 40M6 will be able to intercept targets in space (exo-atmosphere), thereby reinforcing India’s indigenous ballistic missile defence system when it becomes operational. The S-400 targets could be intermediate range ballistic missiles (IRBM) which travel at 4.8 km/second. Taken in totality, the S-400 missiles would be able to intercept IRBM, MRBM (medium range ballistic missiles), theatre, tactical and aero-ballistic missiles, and all types of aerodynamic targets operating up to 400km range.

This is not all. Work on the S-400 follow-on system, the S-500 ADMS Prometheus is being carried out at a frenetic pace. With expected capability to intercept targets at 600km, the S-500 would be a mobile air and defence complex meant to intercept intercontinental range ballistic missiles and hypersonic missiles travelling at 7km/second in space. Once India procures the S-400, it could well seek the futurist S-500 systems.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 14 Oct 2016 22:16

Viv S wrote:Army’s VSHORAD tender to go for re-confirmatory trials - Dinakar Peri

SAAB of Sweden has begun training engineers of Bharat Forge under a proposed joint venture in anticipation of a contract to supply air defence systems to the Army.

The move comes even as SAAB is gearing up for confirmatory trials for the Very Short Range Air Defence Systems (VSHORAD) tender, while it makes an aggressive pitch for the Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) tender.

So is it confirmed that the SpyDer deal fell through? Or will the SAM inventory also be another circus show with the RBS-70, SpyDer, Akash, Akash-Mk2, MR-SAM, S-400, AAD all being inducted?