Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 14 Oct 2016 13:48

With the S-400 a done deal tomorrow,here is the latyest issue of the "F" mag with more on the subject.

http://www.forceindia.net/ShieldintheAir.aspx
OCTOBER 2016 ISSUE
Force Magazine
Shield in the Air
Russian S-400 Triumf ADMS has the potential to take bilateral military-technical cooperation to a higher level
A FORCE Report

Since India has decided to purchase the Russian S-400 Triumf Air Defence Missile System (ADMS), Prime Minister Narendra Modi should take up this issue with President Vladimir Putin during the annual summit meeting next month. After all, S-400, which is being sought by China, has come to symbolise more than a potent weapon system. It could take the bilateral military-technical cooperation to a higher level.

According to informed sources, Russia is willing to transfer a large number of critical technologies as per Indian requests. It is also agreeable to the idea of marrying India’s Akash ADMS with S-400, as well as establish a service centre to support S-400 in India. While Russia at this stage is unwilling to transfer the entire S-400 technology or sell it under the ‘Make in India’ policy with offsets obligation, much would depend upon the coming talks between the two heads of government.

S-400 is a new generation of long range ADMS which would be able to fire legacy missiles (48 N6E and 48 N6E2) of the S-300 PMU2 version from which it has evolved. In addition, it would fire four types of missiles, the short and middle range 9M96E with 40km range and 9M96E2 with 120km range, and the long range 48N6 with 250km range and the 40N6 with up to 400km range. The 40M6 will be able to intercept targets in space (exo-atmosphere), thereby reinforcing India’s indigenous ballistic missile defence system when it becomes operational. The S-400 targets could be intermediate range ballistic missiles (IRBM) which travel at 4.8 km/second. Taken in totality, the S-400 missiles would be able to intercept IRBM, MRBM (medium range ballistic missiles), theatre, tactical and aero-ballistic missiles, and all types of aerodynamic targets operating up to 400km range.

This is not all. Work on the S-400 follow-on system, the S-500 ADMS Prometheus is being carried out at a frenetic pace. With expected capability to intercept targets at 600km, the S-500 would be a mobile air and defence complex meant to intercept intercontinental range ballistic missiles and hypersonic missiles travelling at 7km/second in space. Once India procures the S-400, it could well seek the futurist S-500 systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Mihir » 14 Oct 2016 22:16

Viv S wrote:Army’s VSHORAD tender to go for re-confirmatory trials - Dinakar Peri

SAAB of Sweden has begun training engineers of Bharat Forge under a proposed joint venture in anticipation of a contract to supply air defence systems to the Army.

The move comes even as SAAB is gearing up for confirmatory trials for the Very Short Range Air Defence Systems (VSHORAD) tender, while it makes an aggressive pitch for the Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM) tender.


So is it confirmed that the SpyDer deal fell through? Or will the SAM inventory also be another circus show with the RBS-70, SpyDer, Akash, Akash-Mk2, MR-SAM, S-400, AAD all being inducted? :-?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby parshuram » 14 Oct 2016 22:52

Intresting possible Targets that can be hit by S 400
https://m.sputniknews.com/military/201610131046298939-russia-india-s-400/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nachiket » 14 Oct 2016 23:53

Mihir wrote:So is it confirmed that the SpyDer deal fell through? Or will the SAM inventory also be another circus show with the RBS-70, SpyDer, Akash, Akash-Mk2, MR-SAM, S-400, AAD all being inducted? :-?

Akash, MR-SAM and S-400 are very different systems from each other. Inducting all of them does make sense if we want a layered AD environment.

Your argument only holds true if we induct both SpyDer and RBS-70 are both inducted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ranjan.rao » 14 Oct 2016 23:57

parshuram wrote:Intresting possible Targets that can be hit by S 400
https://m.sputniknews.com/military/201610131046298939-russia-india-s-400/

sorry for OT, is the natasha a target too? that is against pakistaniyat :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby salaam » 15 Oct 2016 00:05

ranjan.rao wrote:
parshuram wrote:Intresting possible Targets that can be hit by S 400
https://m.sputniknews.com/military/201610131046298939-russia-india-s-400/

sorry for OT, is the natasha a target too? that is against pakistaniyat :rotfl: :rotfl:


It has stopped being funny, getting ridiculous, Natasha is always there for whatever is sold to India.

Article starts with long legs of Natasha, with S 400 in background.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 15 Oct 2016 00:13

nachiket wrote:
Mihir wrote:So is it confirmed that the SpyDer deal fell through? Or will the SAM inventory also be another circus show with the RBS-70, SpyDer, Akash, Akash-Mk2, MR-SAM, S-400, AAD all being inducted? :-?

Akash, MR-SAM and S-400 are very different systems from each other. Inducting all of them does make sense if we want a layered AD environment.

Your argument only holds true if we induct both SpyDer and RBS-70 are both inducted.


That statement is incorrect. A combination of Akash/MRSAM/AAD/PAD has same engagement envelop as S-400.

Also S-400 is not a single system, it's a missile complex containing several missile types which has ranges overlapping our homegrown effort. Only one of them is supposed to have 400Km max range.

Hence yes both of them can be compared, it's just that we are not packaging everything under a single name. What's important is that we have an effective IADS, highly mobile, distributed and integrated.

But since we cannot stop this urge to purchase off the shelf systems, we will end up with a mix of Indian/Israeli/Russian/French/etc etc systems which will not gel together.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ShauryaT » 15 Oct 2016 05:21

Sid wrote:Also S-400 is not a single system, it's a missile complex containing several missile types which has ranges overlapping our homegrown effort. Only one of them is supposed to have 400Km max range.

Hence yes both of them can be compared, it's just that we are not packaging everything under a single name. What's important is that we have an effective IADS, highly mobile, distributed and integrated.

But since we cannot stop this urge to purchase off the shelf systems, we will end up with a mix of Indian/Israeli/Russian/French/etc etc systems which will not gel together.
Is the max range missile the 400KM version of the S-400 or to keep it simple, anything beyond 120KM effective against maneuvering targets?

Let me add the possibilities. Cruise Missiles, Fighter Aircraft, Tankers/Transports/AWACS?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 07:20

There is no public knowledge or pic about this 400km missile named 40n6

Probably its not ready for use or cancelled after some tests...else they always like to market new missiles

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 07:21

The known missiles like 48n6 are some 250km max slant range against predictable high level targets and probably half that against fighters

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 07:23

And you really cannot waste costly big missiles on decoys which are to be there like uav rigged up to mimic fighters...these were used in desert storm to light up iraqi iads for harm shooters

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 07:24

So s400 is not some silver bullet. Its better imo to have a distributed network of akash and mrsam with unified radars

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 07:25

If we want awacs killers put 4 astra aam as tkv atop shourya which can release them even 1000km away at 100k feet to dive on target

But oth radar network is a must

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Hitesh » 15 Oct 2016 08:04

From wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_mis ... m#Missiles

One system can hold up to 72 launchers including a maximum of 384 missiles. Reports say India is ordering 5 systems. Does that mean India will be getting nearly 2000 missiles?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 15 Oct 2016 09:14

Singha wrote:The known missiles like 48n6 are some 250km max slant range against predictable high level targets and probably half that against fighters


All 3 longer (120km), extra longer (250km) and hyper longer (400km) will cost more then a SRBM. Other then their apparent deterrence factor how reliable is their kill probability?

If LRSAM is any indicator then S400 investment will be rob money from any homegrown effort.

Orrr, maybe we are forced to buy them else they will be sold to Porkies :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 15 Oct 2016 09:22

IMO S series systems are for anti missile defencd primarily with anti aircraft role being a secondary role.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 10:16

The one anti missile test i saw on youtube has the intercept at some 2km height when the target missile flew into the launch site.

Unlike the well documented passes and fails of american and our pad aad efforts no real info os out there on russi abm tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 10:19

This deal is like light mrca deal..a ransom to keep people on our side for a while longer thats all.

I have no real faith outside of akash and our fighters. Certainly if we map the 0% pk of patriot1 in ods to the huge hype there are wide gaps anf uncertainty even for tail end threats.

A big stick and lot of agnis are best

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 15 Oct 2016 11:25

I doubt India is buying S-400 for BMD. Its never been tested outside or proven. Same for S-300. These are very good long range SAM's and since IAF MR-SAM is still not ready, we may be buying them for stopgap coverage.120 Km range SAM is still very good for dealing with pakis. Hopefully BMD phase 1 development is going smoothly. Things have been very quiet on that front.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Marten » 15 Oct 2016 16:21

Triumpf is primarily to address any long range threat posed by PRC. Basically if you have 1,000 +1,000 reserve pointed up at the eastern skies, you can be better assured of success in defense against Chinese airborne threats (be they J-xxs or BigLongDongs). A smaller subset should also provide second and third layers of protection around Dilli and Mumbai.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 16:58

We might get some idea if usa attacks syria which is likely tonight

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 17:01

Rt.com ....making big $$ from both sides

According to Russia’s Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, agreements were reached on three highly important documents, including the S-400 delivery to India.

“S-400 it is our newest system. We are currently equipping our own military forces with it and we are making an exception only for our closest allies, such as India and China.

The fact that we have reached agreements with both India and China [regarding S-400 delivery] shows a lot. It shows that Russia exports its most advanced technologies to the countries it trusts, with which it is building strategic partnerships,” he stressed, mentioning Russia’s agreement on S-400 exports with China, the first foreign buyer of the system. That deal was announced in the spring of 2015. According to media reports, the transaction amounted to about $3 billion.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2016 17:02

So cheap chinese irbm are forcing us to spend 5b to partially counter

Thats why i said double down on akash2 and akash avoid these monkey traps

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby habal » 15 Oct 2016 17:09

Singha wrote:The one anti missile test i saw on youtube has the intercept at some 2km height when the target missile flew into the launch site.

Unlike the well documented passes and fails of american and our pad aad efforts no real info os out there on russi abm tests.


Russi ABM intercepted one US tomahawk or test launch just before the St. Petersburgh summit which formalized Russian entry to Syrian theatre. That put a stop to the Tomahawk experiment right there. Not much publicity was given by western press for obvious reasons. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 15 Oct 2016 17:12

https://rbth.com/news/2016/06/03/china-may-get-s-400-systems-in-2018-rostech-head_599873

Russia will deliver S-400 Triumph long-range missile systems to China at the earliest in 2018, Rostec state corporation head Sergei Chemezov said in an interview with the Kommersant newspaper on June 2.

“I would like to note that we have a rule: we deliver weapons to our own army in the first place and afterwards we sell weapons abroad,” Chemezov said. “A large number of customers ask us to deliver the weapons ordered by them sooner, but we immediately warn them of dates and the sequence, as it happened, for example, with China.”



Per this China may not get S400 before 2018. If so, when we will get it for us?? China has ordered and even paid advances earlier this year it seems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 15 Oct 2016 19:02

Video of Ashok Leyland 8x8 mounted SAAB BAMSE embedded on this page:

BAMSE SRSAM

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Oct 2016 20:15

Folks, we need to bear in mind that the s400 is not something new. Noises about India's interest were made for a long time, since the early 2000s iirc, but there was no real interest because the system was still new and unproven until very recently. Now though the confidence seems to be high in its reliability and india is looking at it as a stop gap readymade solution not unlike the raffle. Jmtp.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SajeevJino » 15 Oct 2016 20:26

Singha wrote:We might get some idea if usa attacks syria which is likely tonight



Oh dear, Johnson is too much worried about Syrian lives and Russian direct humanitarian deliveries to Syrian Hospitals, Sooner we see some actions, Hope in less than some 30 days.

In between, I sure IDF already flown inside S 400 umbrella, But don't tell me about the cooperation between Russia and IDF, If S 400 picked up the IDF F 15, I sure they will engage.

Also last time, We have report of unannounced NFZ over Kurdistan, when US fighter jets chased Syrians out from their operational area. The Chase story

All these gives me, S 400 is just a over hyped myth.

We have Barak SAM, which is far better to suit our needs,

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 15 Oct 2016 20:54

The S400 would be quite capable against advanced high speed maneuvering aircraft and high value force multipliers like tankers and AEW&C aircraft ..and it will precisely do that ..tie down the PAF and prevent any surprise attacks . The IAF would mop up the remaining and focus on the eastern front . This system is equivalent to about 3 or 4 squadrons of fighters in that sense..so you get the pitch

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ShauryaT » 15 Oct 2016 21:03

kit wrote:The S400 would be quite capable against advanced high speed maneuvering aircraft and high value force multipliers like tankers and AEW&C aircraft ..and it will precisely do that ..tie down the PAF and prevent any surprise attacks . The IAF would mop up the remaining and focus on the eastern front . This system is equivalent to about 3 or 4 squadrons of fighters in that sense..so you get the pitch

Any references for me to get more gyaan on this capability? Some of the Russian material I read is too fan boyish but let please post what you have read on this. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SajeevJino » 15 Oct 2016 21:18

as said above the uber long range missile can strike big low maneuvering planes, like Troop transporters and Cargo planes,

even for these that money is too much.

I always sticks my point, the effective range of S 400 remains some 120 km

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 21:38

Range is a function of many variables, but a S-400 battery will make a huge difference to our AD network.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 21:49

I'll break this into two parts. What is S-400 meant for. What is the export variant.

1. Meant for and what does it usually have, that 5 systems etc
http://ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html

Lemanskiy et al state that definition of the S-400 design was performed jointly by the designers and the Russian MoD, with specific capability foci in:

Defeating threats at low and very low flight altitudes;
Dealing with the overall reduction of target signatures resulting from the pervasive use of stealth technology;
Dealing with the increase in target quantities resulting from the widspread use of UAVs;
Applying all means to defeat advanced jammers employed by opponents;
Surviving in an environment where PGMs are used widely;
Accommodating an environment where an increasing number of nations are deploying TBMs and IRBMs.

Lemanskiy et al observed that several key imperatives were followed during the design process:

An open system architecture with a high level of modularity, intended to permit follow-on capability growth in the design;
Multirole capabilities and the capacity for integration with legacy IADS technologies;
Suitability for the air defence of fixed infrastructure targets, as well as manoeuvre forces;
Suitability for integration with naval surface combatants;
The ability to exploit legacy missile rounds already in operational use;
High operational mobility and deployability;
High lethality and jam resistance;

There imperatives were applied to the design of configurations for the Russian Armed Forces and for export clients.

Export variants of the S-400 Triumf are intended to destroy opposing stand-off jammer aircraft, AWACS/AEW&C aircraft, reconnaissance and armed reconnaissance aircraft, cruise missile armed strategic bombers, cruise missiles, Tactical, Theatre and Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles, and any other atmospheric threats, all in an intensive Electronic Counter Measures environment.

Lemanskiy et al describe the system composition as four core components:

The 30K6E battle management system, comprising the 55K6E Command Post and 91N6E Big Bird acquisition radar;
Up to six 98Zh6E Fire Units, each comprising a 92N6E Grave Stone “multimode” engagement radar, up to twelve 5P85SE2 / 5P85TE2 TELs, each TEL armed with up to four 48N6E2/E3 missiles;
A complement of SAM rounds, comprising arbitrary mixes of the 48N6E, 48N6E2 and 48N6E3;
The 30Ts6E logistical support system, comprising missile storage, test and maintenance equipments.


So five systems, would mean five of the above.
Missiles available?
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-imR3v1E2gPE/ ... -SAM-8.jpg

Very hard to jam as well. Perhaps with S-400 with it, IAF will devise tactics on how to best beat it (essential vs PRC) since we do have ALCMs like Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby D_Prem » 16 Oct 2016 00:50

Could we potentially intercept Paki missiles in boost phase with S-400? I remember reading a article once where Avinash Chander was quoted as saying that DRDO will eventually look to build ABM system that can target missiles in boost phase itself.

Further, given Pakistan's lack of geographical depth does this mean even if they Mirv/Marv their missiles they will be rendered useless as we will be able to intercept the missiles before re-entry and potentially over Paki-land iself?

Finally what holes will AAD/PAD plug in place of S-400? It seems they are overlapping systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Oct 2016 00:54

Five S-400s are not enough for India. My guess is a couple will go for Metros (Delhi, Mumbai most likely) and remaining three, 2 across NE and one across TSP. DRDO BMD when it demos phase 2, or full Phase 1 interim decision is taken.. will cover Chennai, Hyd, Blr, Cal & vital areas (industrial or weapons sites).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby D_Prem » 16 Oct 2016 00:57

My understanding is that we have 5 systems - 4 batteries in each system - 4 launchers per battery - a launcher can launch 4 missiles at a time.

5x4x4x4 = 320 missiles at a time towards killing Gazwa-e-hind psychos?

Or is that wishful thinking.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nirav » 16 Oct 2016 01:03

Karan M wrote:Five S-400s are not enough for India. My guess is a couple will go for Metros (Delhi, Mumbai most likely) and remaining three, 2 across NE and one across TSP. DRDO BMD when it demos phase 2, or full Phase 1 interim decision is taken.. will cover Chennai, Hyd, Blr, Cal & vital areas (industrial or weapons sites).


The S400 due to its capabilities could very well be deployed as an offensive weapon against bakis. Deployment along IB will make it incredibly difficult for the pakis to even think of conducting pgm strikes against IAF/IA targets..

In certain areas where line of sight isnt a problem, bakis will have trouble conducting air ops within their own air space ..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Oct 2016 01:08

Nirav yes - with a 400km radius of the big stick, it can severely inconvenience TSPAF AWACs & we can actually force TSPAF strikers to go lo-lo-lo exposing them to ambushes with Akash and or CAP.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby maxratul » 16 Oct 2016 01:18

i think all the S400 will be deployed against the Chinese to counter their sudden swarm based first strike doctrine. The bakis can be handled by what we have already.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 16 Oct 2016 01:28

Mihir wrote:


So is it confirmed that the SpyDer deal fell through? Or will the SAM inventory also be another circus show with the RBS-70, SpyDer, Akash, Akash-Mk2, MR-SAM, S-400, AAD all being inducted? :-?


This is IA deal not IAF.
Also VSHORAD is going for reconfirmatory trials whereas SpyDer was for SRSAM.
Different circus. :P


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