Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Jan 2017 18:27

Gerard wrote:
That would be the PM who actually ordered weaponization

All Indian PMs have supported the nuclear deterrent and their delivery systems. Even Desai.


I used to think Nehru, morarji, gujral and mms were against it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 26 Jan 2017 19:17

jamwal wrote:Some open source information about Agni missiles that I've collected . Nothing really new, just something to make sense of data:


Many thanks for taking the trouble. Just what I wanted. Like a man with 25 sons all of whom are called Abdul - I am completely lost about what each Agni iteration did, does or will do..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singbhai » 26 Jan 2017 21:44

Yagnasri wrote:Mango post alert:

What about our production capabilities? From what I read we can make some 10k Pinaka a year and 100 Bramhos. Apart from that no information on others in any open source outlets. We need some serious manufacturing capabilities to counter China which seems to make almost 1000 units of various kinds with various ranges.

We read no information on the money invested or production facilities etc at all. Is it because of OSA etc?


Sirji

There is decent capacity to built these and it's being done today. Further capacity enhancement can be done based on production forecast given to Private parties involved.
http://www.larsentoubro.com/heavy-engin ... r-systems/
http://www.brahmos.com/newscenter.php?newsid=178
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indian-ar ... -firepower

There are more details of other delivery systems -
http://bharatshakti.in/lt-is-well-poise ... j-d-patil/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jan 2017 00:43

India eyes defence equipment deals with UAE
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/uae-india-t ... s-with-uae

The Brahmos missile, which was jointly developed between India and Russia, could be offered to the UAE later, Indian External Affairs Ministry officials said. "There have been talks on the Brahmos missiles, but India will immediately offer only the equipment for which it holds IPR rights," confirmed ministry secretary Amar Sinha.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kurup » 27 Jan 2017 19:32

K4 test has been re-scheduled from Jan 30 to Feb1 ....... the warning area is same as the previous warnings .

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 28 Jan 2017 06:57

Thanks Kurup for the map tracing the proposed flight path and computing the travel distance of the K4 SLBM test you put up on Page 89 of this thread.

For good order the revised NAVAREA warning for the K4 SLBM Test:

NAVAREA VIII – WARNINGS IN FORCE AS ON 27 JAN 2017 ……………….
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DTG 271002Z
FROM NAVAREA VIII CO-ORDINATOR TO NAVAREA VIII – 070
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BAY OF BENGAL AND NORTH INDIAN OCEAN – CHARTS 31 INT 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL
FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR DAILY FROM 30 JAN TO 01 FEB17 FROM 0630-1030 UTC
IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 17-41.52N 083-39.44E, 15-02.05N 082-59.53E, 03-26.45N
086-26.01E, 04-54.30N 090-39.06E, 16-05.17N 086-00.64E, 17-43.08N 083-43.91E AND 06-42.27S
088-43.91E, 10-41.44S 089-33.12E, 08-08.42S 096-53.65E, 04-30.43S 095-03.75E
2. CANCEL NAVAREA 062 AND THIS MSG 011130 UTC FEB 17

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sas » 29 Jan 2017 01:03

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/1830/India_To_Test_Long_Range_Submarine_Launched_Nuclear_Missile_Next_Week#.WIdG3dJ96M8

The indigenously built underwater missile, having a strike range of around 3,500 km, will be test fired from a submerged pontoon, which is almost identical to a submarine on January 31, New Indian Express reported today.K-4 missile weighs around 17 tonne and is capable of carrying a warhead of around two tonne. Further it has a length of 12 metres and diameter of 1.3 metres.


If one were to go by the following data (assuming its legit)
1) Dia=1.3m
2) L=12m
3) Wt=17t
4) Payload=2t or ≈2.2t

It gives a fair idea that K4 or whatever it's variant to be tested is a two stage vehicle with a single warhead configuration.
Almost all modern SLBM's with MIRV configuration are close to 2m Diameter.

K-4 and K-4 Mk2 is likely to be a compacted version of land based A-3P with all composite casing.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sas » 29 Jan 2017 01:06

Image

Above slide grab is likely to be the K5 SLBM with 3 stage and MIRV configuration.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 29 Jan 2017 05:07

So k4 is intermin like a3 while k5 is the long term a5ish stick.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 29 Jan 2017 06:38

The 1.3 m diameter always bugged me. Itseems to suggest its based on A-IIP or A-4. But if a 12 m missile has almost the same range and weight as 20 m long A-4 then jolly good!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 29 Jan 2017 09:00

specs of the polaris SLBM seem to mimic the K4 - payload was likely around 1t for the 3 warheads vs the 2t used in K4 calculations hence diff in range...rest is very similar .

Designed 1956–1960
Manufacturer Lockheed Corporation
Variants A-1, A-2, A-3, Chevaline
Specifications (Polaris A-3 (UGM-27C))
Weight 35,700 lb (16,200 kg)
Height 32 ft 4 in (9.86 m)
Diameter 4 ft 6 in (1,370 mm)

Warhead 3 x W58 thermonuclear weapon
Blast yield 3 x 200 kT
Engine First stage, Aerojet General Solid-fuel rocket
Second stage, Hercules rocket

Propellant Solid propellant
Operational
range
2,500 nautical miles (4,600 km)
Speed 8,000 mph (13,000 km/h)

Guidance
system
Inertial
Steering
system
Thrust vectoring

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2017 09:38

Singha wrote:Warhead 3 x W58 thermonuclear weapon
Blast yield 3 x 200 kT


Bah! Puny fizzle. China has Megaton warheards

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 29 Jan 2017 18:59

I there any difference in NOTAM depicted dimensions

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 29 Jan 2017 19:05

Does the Akash system have the capability to shoot down Pinaka or Smerch?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 29 Jan 2017 22:15

Wouldn't a QRSAM be a likelier tool for that job?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 30 Jan 2017 00:45

Please do a per rocket cost comparison for an artillery rocket system and a SAM system.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 30 Jan 2017 01:14

shiv wrote:Does the Akash system have the capability to shoot down Pinaka or Smerch?


boss you can but you wont .. babu s wont allow it :mrgreen:

but now seriously why exactly did Israel develop the Davids sling when the Arrow 2 could do the job :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 30 Jan 2017 05:42

Ideally you require a CRAM for such a mission to both get high magazine depth and get a cost effective solution to the problem.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 07:42

China has some interesting multiple barrel launch rockets - as much as 300 or 400 mm and ranges of over 200 km
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_eq ... _artillery

One can expect these to rain down in hot war. That is why I asked if Akash has anti MBRL capability. China actually practices the destrcution of airfirleds using such weapons as shown by the Ausairpower link I posted earlier

Gotta check which is costlier. Losing airfields and territory or Akash mijjiles

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 30 Jan 2017 07:45

Shiv, iron dome is a better solution against such systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 07:47

What do WE have currently that would be of some use - other than dispersal?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 30 Jan 2017 08:44

Ah, there's the rub of the situation. I thought you were looking at a hypothical situation. In this case, even Akash will not be sufficient as the number of incoming rounds will overwhelm the Akash batteries ability to deal with the numbers. Due to high reload times of the launchers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 08:53

Pratyush wrote:Ah, there's the rub of the situation. I thought you were looking at a hypothical situation. In this case, even Akash will not be sufficient as the number of incoming rounds will overwhelm the Akash batteries ability to deal with the numbers. Due to high reload times of the launchers.

Hypothetically even 12 Akash missiles may make a difference in terms of damage and repair/recovery time for the airstrip. Technically the launch pad would need to be eliminated in a retaliatory attack within minutes or hours. The choices we may have are artillery, Pinaka, Brahmos, Prithvi or airstrike depending on the range and availability

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 30 Jan 2017 08:54

Pratyush wrote:Ah, there's the rub of the situation. I thought you were looking at a hypothical situation. In this case, even Akash will not be sufficient as the number of incoming rounds will overwhelm the Akash batteries ability to deal with the numbers. Due to high reload times of the launchers.


That's right. Not only cost but also magazine depth and reloads per launcher. Iron dome is a good start, but against a threat that has high number of rockets you would probably need to aim lower to match the threat and get magazine depth. See This.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby disha » 30 Jan 2017 09:17

shiv wrote:Many thanks for taking the trouble. Just what I wanted. Like a man with 25 sons all of whom are called Abdul - I am completely lost about what each Agni iteration did, does or will do..


Does it matter? As long as it gives agony to Cheen!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 09:31

What is the reloading time of the Akash? Even Chinese rocket units have a reloading time. For example a 6 rocket WS2 with a 200 km range goes around in groups of up to 6 trucks - making a salvo of 36 missiles, after which there is a reloading time of about 12 minutes

For those who have some information please don't think that I am recommending Akash in this role. I am seeking information. I don't know.

Why do we need thousands of Akash missiles if we are going to say "We will use then against X threat but not against y because of cost". We tend to use cost in a rhetorical sense to make an argument. When we import we complain that we should use indigenous stuff because of cost. When we need to use indigenous stuff we complain that it will be too costly for some role and import is better. These ideas fail to answer the questions I have

    1. Can Akash shoot down Pinaka like rockets
    2. What is the reload time
    3. What do we intend to do with the thousands of Akash missiles ordered?

I am NOT asking about cost or whether some other system is better. So please don't give a cost or imported alternative response. If anyone has answers to the questions I will be grateful.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 30 Jan 2017 10:05

Shiv, I will try to get an answer later on in the evening. As have some ideas but lack the time to put them in a post.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 30 Jan 2017 11:04

yes the fat WS2/ATACMs type MLRS derived weapons are definitely interceptable by any decent SAM down to spyder python5/derby types albeit the SAMs are lot costlier due to seeker. 20 batteries of Spyder are on order and some delivered...all for IAF...Maitri will also flow to IAF
their speed will be low supersonic at best....idea is keep least volume for propellant and more for warheads being a area weapon.

even L70 AA guns guided by radar might be able to take down a few but the range is short so the hit rockets will still fall on the target and cause damage.

for Akash - best bet is develop a truck mounted VL launcher of 12-16 tubes module. this the way barak8 , VL mica and rest of world has gone. for "fire on move trainable launcher" like IA wants let the current 3-missile launcher remain if they want, but I will point out the similar BUK system has also gone cansister in latest iteration, and SA-15 TOR was VL from day1.

nobody goes around with exposed SAMs anymore - last one was SA6/Hawk

TOR goes with russian mech divisions - similar role to tunguska and IA-akash tracked vehicles
http://www.military-today.com/missiles/tor.jpg
the new BUK - sealed cansister - faster and safer to load.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/s ... 40_002.jpg

the reload vehicle of akash would perhaps best case complete the transfer in 20 mins. the missiles are big and bulky not possible to manhandle. there will be other TELARs that will take over when a set of vehicles goes off to reload.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby disha » 30 Jan 2017 13:19

ramana wrote:To me odd that they want to do pontoon firings still. It could mean the Arihant currently has the K-15 missiles and not the K-4. Or this pontoon trial is a MIRV.


Ramona'ji., Arihant is carrying K-15 on operation. Unless K-4 is cleared for operation roles it will be on pontoon testing. If memory serves right., this is the first K-4 test to the full range of 3500+ km.

Induction of K-4 is not going to be easy., note that it is not just testing the missile but the entire system. Right from the launch sequence to the launch tubes to its loading and maintenance. In fact, just the over-pressure of launch of a missile like K-4 will be several tonnes.

Given this I am not surprised that initial testings will be in pontoons at varying depths.

I do have an ask., I think the USN submarines use a separate gas generator and I do not think DRDO/IN went that route. I believe that K-15 and K-4 are ignited right in the tubes and the launch covers open up and the rocket propels itself through the water. It appears that there is a "launch booster" at the tip that acts as an underwater rocket pulling the rocket through the water. Any thoughts?

This is the best photo I could find on the above http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/the-inside-story-k-15/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 30 Jan 2017 14:10

^^ the K15 nosecone seems like a protective cap thats blown off like brahmos.

K4 is more complex story and you are correct -- we are using similar tractor system as the mighty R-39 sineva slbm of delta class subs. this was seen in grainy K4 launch video.

you can see it clearly in a land test - a vast sheet of flame from the nose and the cap flies away after a while
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tn3szmlvxU

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby siddhu » 30 Jan 2017 14:49

shiv wrote:What is the reloading time of the Akash? Even Chinese rocket units have a reloading time. For example a 6 rocket WS2 with a 200 km range goes around in groups of up to 6 trucks - making a salvo of 36 missiles, after which there is a reloading time of about 12 minutes

For those who have some information please don't think that I am recommending Akash in this role. I am seeking information. I don't know.

Why do we need thousands of Akash missiles if we are going to say "We will use then against X threat but not against y because of cost". We tend to use cost in a rhetorical sense to make an argument. When we import we complain that we should use indigenous stuff because of cost. When we need to use indigenous stuff we complain that it will be too costly for some role and import is better. These ideas fail to answer the questions I have

    1. Can Akash shoot down Pinaka like rockets
    2. What is the reload time
    3. What do we intend to do with the thousands of Akash missiles ordered?

I am NOT asking about cost or whether some other system is better. So please don't give a cost or imported alternative response. If anyone has answers to the questions I will be grateful.


I think we need systems like Phalanx CIWS with longer range to deal with cheap missiles. We should not use an anti missile costing 100x to shoot down x.
From what i know akash should be able shoot down such missiles easily as they are not sophisticated.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 15:14

siddhu wrote:We should not use an anti missile costing 100x to shoot down x.

Why? Where did you pull out that cost calculation without considering the cost of a devastated airfield and associated assets?

I find this constant unasked-for costly-cheap calculation completely absurd. This argument is as ridiculous as an earlier one I read on BRF "Why do we send 100 men to cordon off and kill 2 terrorists".

The logic I am seeing seems to be "Cheap threat needs cheap response." It is difficult for me to comprehend more thoughtless illogic than that. As if cheap weapons wont kill or destroy. How the hell will a person manning the defence line know whether he is being shot at by a cheap or costly weapon so that he can quickly throw down a costly countermeasure and use a cheap one if he knows a cheap one is coming at him? Is nobody bothering to think? Do people seriously think we can keep cheap weapons for cheap threats and costly weapons for expensive threats? What's up people? First answer what CAN do the job. If you know. Not how costly it is, which everyone seems to know damn well even without knowing the answer to the question that was asked.

If we have a threat it must be fought whether it is cheap or costly. The first question is what can fight that threat? I asked "Can the Akash shoot Chinese MBRL rockets down?" Akash is indigenous and supports local industry. Can it do the job or not? If you know, please reply. If you don't please don't say "too costly"

In Darra Adamkhel an AK 47 can be bought for less than US $ 100 to arm a terrorist. Why should Indian army soldiers get bulletproof vests that cost the equivalent of US $ 500 or more? Can't we do with something cheap? Let them hide behind rocks. Nice and cheap to protect against cheap threats.

The question was not "Is it worth it. Is it cost effective? Will CAG approve? What else can we use? Is imported better?Do we need cheap for cheap?" Is it possible that our defence does not get what it needs because we are always talking cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap. That is cheaper We are cheaper. wtf?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 30 Jan 2017 16:13

Shiv, the question that you are asking is if Akash can shoot down the PLA rockets. The answer is, if rajendra can see incoming rockets and provide a shooting solution to Akash. Then the system can deal with the Pla rockets. Now on to the related issues of reloads. I did some quick research and none of the Pla rockets system of our concern have a pallets load capability as is available with pinaka. So I would guess that tubes will have to be loaded one at a time. That should easily mean 10 to 15 minutes per launcher per salvo. Plus the time taken to travel in and out of firing position for reloads.

When it comes to Akash the reload vehicle carries 6 round that are in boxes. So the reload times should easily be 10 to 15 minutes for one TEL. For 3 missile s.


If you're concern is about defending the airfield and related assets against such a salvo. Then we need to understand the following issues.

1 who controls the launcher in the Pla orbat.
2 who issues the launch order.
3 what is the total numbers of launcher per regiments / division.
4 do we know what to look for (radio signals and like)when it come to Pla rocket launcher preparing to fire.

I guess you can see the direction where I am going with this. Some information we can figure out from open source. The rest we can't.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 30 Jan 2017 18:02

Yes Akash should be deal rockets most modern SAM systems can. However the limited no of rounds per launcher will pose a problem against saturation attacks. It should be able to deal with tactical BM (up to 300 km) as well but however it's speed however will make restricts its capability against Theater BM.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby siddhu » 30 Jan 2017 18:38

shiv wrote:
siddhu wrote:We should not use an anti missile costing 100x to shoot down x.

Why? Where did you pull out that cost calculation without considering the cost of a devastated airfield and associated assets?

I find this constant unasked-for costly-cheap calculation completely absurd. This argument is as ridiculous as an earlier one I read on BRF "Why do we send 100 men to cordon off and kill 2 terrorists".

The logic I am seeing seems to be "Cheap threat needs cheap response." It is difficult for me to comprehend more thoughtless illogic than that. As if cheap weapons wont kill or destroy. How the hell will a person manning the defence line know whether he is being shot at by a cheap or costly weapon so that he can quickly throw down a costly countermeasure and use a cheap one if he knows a cheap one is coming at him? Is nobody bothering to think? Do people seriously think we can keep cheap weapons for cheap threats and costly weapons for expensive threats? What's up people? First answer what CAN do the job. If you know. Not how costly it is, which everyone seems to know damn well even without knowing the answer to the question that was asked.

If we have a threat it must be fought whether it is cheap or costly. The first question is what can fight that threat? I asked "Can the Akash shoot Chinese MBRL rockets down?" Akash is indigenous and supports local industry. Can it do the job or not? If you know, please reply. If you don't please don't say "too costly"

In Darra Adamkhel an AK 47 can be bought for less than US $ 100 to arm a terrorist. Why should Indian army soldiers get bulletproof vests that cost the equivalent of US $ 500 or more? Can't we do with something cheap? Let them hide behind rocks. Nice and cheap to protect against cheap threats.

The question was not "Is it worth it. Is it cost effective? Will CAG approve? What else can we use? Is imported better?Do we need cheap for cheap?" Is it possible that our defence does not get what it needs because we are always talking cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap. That is cheaper We are cheaper. wtf?


I don't disagree completely with what you say. But we should look to optimize our response and resources.
The scenario you propose is out numbering the Chinese missiles, though this is a valid response but we cannot sustain this economically. Instead i choose to build cheap MBRL and attack Chinese in same number.
I would save the akash systems to target complex targets such as aircrafts or UAV.
Regarding the bulletproof vests, etc we still use desi patka because we cannot afford ballistic helmets till now.
Why we send 100 men for 2 terrorists is because of the terrain, surroundings and the nature of operation demands it. We can send a drone or blow up the whole area but its not an optimized solution.

We can invest money to develop such systems that would be cheap to use. Initial RnD might need lot of money but that can be done.
Major problem in our country, the funding necessary and conductive environment for the RnD is not available.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby siddhu » 30 Jan 2017 18:41

shiv wrote: "Can the Akash shoot Chinese MBRL rockets down?" Akash is indigenous and supports local industry. Can it do the job or not? If you know, please reply. If you don't please don't say "too costly"


If it can detect Lakshya target then yes it will detect the rocket from MBRL.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 30 Jan 2017 19:00

Shiv what if Cheen buys this Jobaria MLRS from UAE? it is developed by rocketsan of turkey to a UAE tender. maximal things in one vehicle. each vehicle carries 240 rockets

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 30 Jan 2017 19:12

siddhu wrote:
shiv wrote:Why? Where did you pull out that cost calculation without considering the cost of a devastated airfield and associated assets?

I find this constant unasked-for costly-cheap calculation completely absurd. This argument is as ridiculous as an earlier one I read on BRF "Why do we send 100 men to cordon off and kill 2 terrorists".

The logic I am seeing seems to be "Cheap threat needs cheap response." It is difficult for me to comprehend more thoughtless illogic than that. As if cheap weapons wont kill or destroy. How the hell will a person manning the defence line know whether he is being shot at by a cheap or costly weapon so that he can quickly throw down a costly countermeasure and use a cheap one if he knows a cheap one is coming at him? Is nobody bothering to think? Do people seriously think we can keep cheap weapons for cheap threats and costly weapons for expensive threats? What's up people? First answer what CAN do the job. If you know. Not how costly it is, which everyone seems to know damn well even without knowing the answer to the question that was asked.

If we have a threat it must be fought whether it is cheap or costly. The first question is what can fight that threat? I asked "Can the Akash shoot Chinese MBRL rockets down?" Akash is indigenous and supports local industry. Can it do the job or not? If you know, please reply. If you don't please don't say "too costly"

In Darra Adamkhel an AK 47 can be bought for less than US $ 100 to arm a terrorist. Why should Indian army soldiers get bulletproof vests that cost the equivalent of US $ 500 or more? Can't we do with something cheap? Let them hide behind rocks. Nice and cheap to protect against cheap threats.

The question was not "Is it worth it. Is it cost effective? Will CAG approve? What else can we use? Is imported better?Do we need cheap for cheap?" Is it possible that our defence does not get what it needs because we are always talking cheap cheap cheap cheap cheap. That is cheaper We are cheaper. wtf?


I don't disagree completely with what you say. But we should look to optimize our response and resources.
The scenario you propose is out numbering the Chinese missiles, though this is a valid response but we cannot sustain this economically. Instead i choose to build cheap MBRL and attack Chinese in same number.
I would save the akash systems to target complex targets such as aircrafts or UAV.
Regarding the bulletproof vests, etc we still use desi patka because we cannot afford ballistic helmets till now.
Why we send 100 men for 2 terrorists is because of the terrain, surroundings and the nature of operation demands it. We can send a drone or blow up the whole area but its not an optimized solution.

We can invest money to develop such systems that would be cheap to use. Initial RnD might need lot of money but that can be done.
Major problem in our country, the funding necessary and conductive environment for the RnD is not available.


In an all out war you can definitely use high performance air defense missiles (designed for more challenging targets) to shoot down enemy rockets or even mortars if you have nothing else. If that is the underlying strategy then you must, during peacetime, stock up and build your air-defense system in terms of right sizing it for the threat.

This begins to get cost prohibitive since the enemy has the cost advantage and can force you to allocate more resources to defenses. When you get into the weeds of that it makes some sense to develop a layered air defense that right sizes your defenses to your main adversaries offensive capability. Israel does it with Iron Dome, David's Sling/Patriot, and the Arrow systems.

US plans to do it with IFPC-Increment2/3, a short-medum ranged system, and Patriot IAMD plus the BMD layer. India already has a fairly comprehensive structure set up or in the pipeline..A CRAM system could well be the next system that follows.
Last edited by brar_w on 30 Jan 2017 19:36, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 30 Jan 2017 19:31

Singha wrote:Shiv what if Cheen buys this Jobaria MLRS from UAE? it is developed by rocketsan of turkey to a UAE tender. maximal things in one vehicle. each vehicle carries 240 rockets

We can think up a million "what if" scenarios. Another what if would be "What if all rockets fail to launch or go completely haywire" leaving Indian targets totally untouched. But that is an unpopular whatif among Indians. As a story it won't sell.

But that is not the point.

Existing Chinese forces in Tibet include "artillery regiments" armed with (presumably) a variety of podded/MBRL rockets. These can be launched against a thousand and one Indian targets and at least some will be reserved for airfields. The question that I had was specifically for Akash and airfield defence.

If 36 rockets are on target and even 12 are taken out that is a big achievement - not to be dismissed as a useless endeavour. The Chinese will be treated to equal firepower as a compliment. But this is all theoretical. But at last count I heard that several thousand Akash missiles are being inducted and in addition there is a requirement for even more SAMs of various types. Surely we are not reserving all this for PLAAF aircraft only?

nam
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nam » 30 Jan 2017 19:36

Singha wrote:Shiv what if Cheen buys this Jobaria MLRS from UAE? it is developed by rocketsan of turkey to a UAE tender. maximal things in one vehicle. each vehicle carries 240 rockets



OT, so now the Arabs don't even want to do reload ! Talk about being lazy.


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