Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sas » 25 Feb 2017 23:12

On recent PDV interceptor test

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/02/25/hit-kill-successfully-demonstrated-drdos-pdv-interceptor/

Some description about the target vehicle in the recent test
Incidentally, a new interceptor of the class of PDV also requires a new MRBM class target missile for effective trials. In this test DRDO used a two-stage target, comprising a new solid-fuelled second stage that sits atop a liquid fuelled Prithvi booster first stage. This target missile successfully mimics the 3-4 km/sec re-entry speeds of a ‘hostile’ ballistic missile approaching from more than 2000 km away. The target missile was fired from a naval platform sitting offshore.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 25 Feb 2017 23:29

Can the PDV be made more compact. It seems really heavy and unwieldy compared to THAAD or even 40N6 missiles. At 1m dia it is nearly twice the size of these missiles.Ideally we will need a TEL to carry atleast 4 of these together.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 25 Feb 2017 23:50

For geopolitical reasons India is not going to test a true blue ICBM. Agni VI may never be tested as in the reported range there are no adversaries which means it is a true blue ICBM and its range is understated and is basically a code name for Surya and the target is US. MIRVed Agni V is sufficient for our needs at present. So kheyali pulaos about using PSLV for 10 tonne payload at 15000 kms distance are not realistic.

Since a MRBM class missile was fired from a naval asset does it mean we have improved on the Dhanush and have another route to deliver nukes?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2017 00:35

Bheeshma wrote:Can the PDV be made more compact. It seems really heavy and unwieldy compared to THAAD or even 40N6 missiles. At 1m dia it is nearly twice the size of these missiles.Ideally we will need a TEL to carry atleast 4 of these together.


Larger size means larger sized payload volume wise, means larger optics etc. Better performance.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 26 Feb 2017 01:47

Yes but I would hope with 1 m diameter they would consider sub-munitions to take care of multiple targets MIRV etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 26 Feb 2017 04:42

Bheeshma wrote:Can the PDV be made more compact. It seems really heavy and unwieldy compared to THAAD or even 40N6 missiles. At 1m dia it is nearly twice the size of these missiles.Ideally we will need a TEL to carry atleast 4 of these together.

The IIR on PDV is much cheaper than THAAD seeker
It says KKV. If these can be packaged on an Agni class booster it could be the Multiple Kill Vehicle and makes land based ABM very effective.

Note the KKV had enough energy to get off course incoming. Means can get Manoeuvring RVS too.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2017 06:34

THAAD had a requirement for high load out for saturation attacks when used together with the Lower Tier terminal system using PAC-3. That gives you 112 interceptors/launches when deployed together without requiring re-loads (6 THAAD Launchers and 4 PAC-3 launchers). Hence the launcher capacity of 8 was a key design driver for the current operational version. That drove the altitude (High and Low) and that also drove the KKV design. And IR seeker was chosen based on trades performed by Lockheed internally iirc.

For the second iteration they basically added a larger primary booster and a second stage in order to both increase altitude and range. The trade off is of course the load out is reduced from 8 to 6 so they plan on using both launchers (same with PAC-3 and MSE) to optimize shoot look shoot doctrine with the PAC-3. For terminal defense this will cover the mission area for the US threats (between current THAAD and THAAD ER).

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 26 Feb 2017 11:46

Bheeshma wrote:Yes but I would hope with 1 m diameter they would consider sub-munitions to take care of multiple targets MIRV etc.

They are in the works called AD-1 and AD-2. PDV was the fastest way for us to build up capability and test the systems (we have to go alone on this). By the way, PDV apparently hit the geometric center of the target payload in the last test, in spite of the target misbehaving slightly. See from about 1:45 onwards.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nash » 26 Feb 2017 14:22

Delhi Defence Review‏@delhidefence Feb 22

Sources say the re-scheduling of the K-4 SLBM test that was slated for mid-February was due to technical issues with the launch pontoon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 26 Feb 2017 18:26

I am disappointed that GoI is not looking beyond Agni-V.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 26 Feb 2017 20:08

Karan M wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Can the PDV be made more compact. It seems really heavy and unwieldy compared to THAAD or even 40N6 missiles. At 1m dia it is nearly twice the size of these missiles.Ideally we will need a TEL to carry atleast 4 of these together.


Larger size means larger sized payload volume wise, means larger optics etc. Better performance.


Having a larger warhead has cascading effect on size of missile , Using warhead also means that it will allow PDV to intercept incoming BM from 15 km to 150 km altitude if required to do so in absense of other platform or simply trade long range and medium altitude interception ~ 15km defending a larger area , KKV that depends on just kinetic hit are not effective at low altitude infact it would be effective only in space environment due to atmospheric friction having effect on IR performance and kill vehical.

It wont be infact surprising if PDV ends up being using for Long Range Interception of targets like AWACS/Tanker if they put it on a loafted trajectory using its larger rear control surface during low and mid altitude trajectory and TVC for final kill in terminal phase. It will be a question of software modification and test to verify it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 26 Feb 2017 20:15

If PDV is canisterized a TEL can carry 2-3 missiles similar to Brahmos TEL configuratio.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 09:14

This is HUGE! I have not seen this picture before, so forgive my excitement!!! :)
Enjoy Jingos...if you already have not seen it!
Do not forget to click on the magnifying glass on the top right hand corner of the photo.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN ... ZUdWlwOEZ3

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 27 Feb 2017 12:59

http://idrw.org/5-missiles-which-india- ... -pakistan/

This article seems to have drawing of Missile Pralay ??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 27 Feb 2017 13:04

Borrowed from this very thread.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 27 Feb 2017 14:10

Rakesh wrote:This is HUGE! I have not seen this picture before, so forgive my excitement!!! :)
Enjoy Jingos...if you already have not seen it!
Do not forget to click on the magnifying glass on the top right hand corner of the photo.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN ... ZUdWlwOEZ3



At the top right hand of the image, is a wing of an aircraft in the back ground. Unless you mean the Astra round attached to the plane. Even more exciting part is at the space between the nacelles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby mody » 27 Feb 2017 14:58

I think the proposed Agni-1P is going to be an all composite missile with NEPE as the propellant. This will be the first step.
Agni-IV will follow thereafter or rather A-IV-MK2 as it will go all composite. K4-MK2 it seems could be all composite. But that is still speculation.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 27 Feb 2017 16:00

mody wrote:I think the proposed Agni-1P is going to be an all composite missile with NEPE as the propellant.



My guess like yours is also that Agni-1P will have a composite stage.

Regards propellant my guess differs in that I think it will be the standard HTPB/AP/AL and not NEPE.

My guess is based on 12 Ton weight of a new composite rocket motor disclosed in an article titled “Static Testing of Large Solid Rocket Motor” in Jan 2017 edition of DRDO News Letter which I think is for Agni 1P (Note: Article does not state what missile the rocket motor is for). :

Static Testing of Large Solid Rocket Motor

A large case-bonded rocket motor of 12 T class was static tested successfully on 17 November 2016 at Advanced Centre for Energetic Materials (ACEM), Nasik. The composite case rocket motor was designed and realised indigenously and belongs to the Mark III version. The main objective of the static test was to validate the design for optimised EPDM insulation where a reduction of 80 kg was carried out compared to the Mark I version, and to evaluate the augmentation factors. The motor has a submerged nozzle with provision for actuation, which is also realised indigenously.


The 12 T class solid rocket motor is one of the largest rocket motors with EPDM liner in a composite casing being processed in India. The propellant is based on hydroxyl terminated polybutadiene (HTPB)—Ammonium Perchlorate (AP)—Aluminium (Al)-based composition.

The complete process technology for realisation of the solid rocket motor has been developed and matured at ACEM. The processing involves critical steps such as mixing of propellant in multiple-bowl programme, viscosity management during the long casting period, confinement based pressure curing without application of inert gas etc. Compliance with stringent quality requirements ensured a defect free propellant grain as revealed by the non-destructive inspection.

The static testing of motor involved data acquisition of 34 channels for temperature, 27 channels for strain, 2 channels for thrust, 4 channels for pressure in addition to instrumentation for displacement, pyro currents, actuator signals and high speed videography.

The data were recorded and displayed in real time along with the prediction curve. Pressure-time and thrust-time profiles matched the prediction data.


The motor produced maximum thrust of approx. 500 kN and maximum pressure of 7.25 MPa and the test duration was 74.4 seconds. Strain, temperature and displacements were within the test specifications. Based on the data recorded, the optimised insulation thickness was validated.

Clicky

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 27 Feb 2017 16:19

is cheen already all-composite in the DF16, DF26 and DF31? I understand they uprate the data a lot.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 20:53

Pratyush wrote:At the top right hand of the image, is a wing of an aircraft in the back ground. Unless you mean the Astra round attached to the plane. Even more exciting part is at the space between the nacelles.

Saar, I was referring to the magnifying glass that allows you to zoom in the picture and you are correct, I am referring to the Astra round onlee :)

In my excitement, I completely forget about the Brahmos between the nacelles :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 27 Feb 2017 21:56

^^^
tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk tsk

Looks at fingertips and not at cleavage.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 22:06

:mrgreen: :D :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 28 Feb 2017 00:52

Indranil wrote:Borrowed from this very thread.


So in your view is Pralay = Shaurya ie ground launched version of Sagarika?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 28 Feb 2017 02:30

Hope not. Pralay if its is 2K range AShM then should be 2 stage. First taking it to 1.7-8 K in cruise missile mode and then hypersonic scramjet kicking in at the end.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 28 Feb 2017 05:08

We have discussed this many times before. Probably, for the first time here.

Indranil wrote:
PratikDas wrote:There seems to be a lot going on around ceramic radomes for Pralay, going by Google results for drdo.gov.in. Also, that all of this is being coordinated by RCI and not ASL or DRDL is bolstering my speculation that Pralay is a repurposed Shaurya - perhaps with a seeker now. Brahmos would then be the 300 km, 300 kg gatecrasher and Pralay would be the 700 km, 1000 kg dam buster.

Well, I think you are on the right track. There are a few more observations from my side.

1. The missile must be a version of an existing missile for going from project sanction to almost test ready (along with canisterization) in a matter of months.
2. That they are getting 2 integration rigs and close to 10 nose cone radomes means that most of the parts are coming at speed, i.e. from a production line, corroborating the above conclusion.
3. It is 9.038 mtrs long. Shaurya is nearly 10 mtrs, but with a booster. It is likely, that they are using Shaurya's canister.
4. While Shaurya's nose cone is very conical, the nose cone of Pralay is more blunted and ogival in nature. This probably means that this missile will be slower than Shaurya, and will spend more time in lower atmosphere.
5. The last part of section 5 of Pralay (about 1m) and section 6 will get a cylindrical jacket which will house the stabilization/control fin (again probably borrowed from Shaurya).


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 28 Feb 2017 18:06

Cross Post :-

Seeker Technology 1

Seeker Technology 2

These are pics of some brochures posted on Trishul Blog. These brochures seem to give lot of information about work being done or being contemplated on IR and RF seeker and more particular on IR "detectors" which in my personal view is one of the major deficiencies in Indian military industrial complex. Can someone interpret the info on these brochures and explain??

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby disha » 01 Mar 2017 03:04

Out with Agni and in with PDV., that is in terms of beauty contest!

Check out the image of PDV in this blog http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/02/25/hit-kill-successfully-demonstrated-drdos-pdv-interceptor/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem » 01 Mar 2017 09:45

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 75994.html

India likely to test homegrown interceptor missile on Wednesday

BHUBANESWAR: Nearly a month after Pakistan conducted first test of its medium-rangesurface-to-surface ballistic missile Ababeel, capable of delivering multiple warheads, India is all set to testfire an interceptor weapon system, which can effectively destroy incoming enemy missiles at low altitude.The weapon, dubbed as advanced air defence interceptor, is likely to be launched from Abdul Kalam Island off Odisha coast on Wednesday in full operational configuration. A part of the country’scredible ballistic missile defence (BMD) programme, the interceptor is one of the best missiles in its class.The missile was earlier scheduled for a test in November last year, but the trial was deferred due to some technical reasons. However, on February 11, the Defence Research and Development Organisation(DRDO) had carried out second test of the Prithvi Defence Vehicle (PDV) interceptor missile, capable of killing incoming missiles at an altitude of more than 100 km at exo-atmospheric zone.Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister Dr G Satheesh Reddy has arrived at the test facility to oversee the launch preparation. While range preparation for the test is near complete and the missile is integrated with the launcher, final round check-ups of the missile’s sub-systems are on.“Range integration has been completed and count down already started for the trial. As per of the coordinated exercise, the interceptor will kill a target missile, fired from another location mimicking an enemy missile, mid-air,” said a defence official.A successful test of the missile bears significance as the weapon system, which has been test fired at least eight times successfully, is likely to be inducted in the armed forces and deployed at strategic locations to protect the country’s cities and important installations from hostile attacks.Developed by DRDO, the 7.5 metre tall interceptor is a single stage solid rocket propelled guided missile equipped with an inertial navigation system and an electro-mechanical activator under commandby the data up-linked from the ground-based radar. The missile is auto-launched after receiving commands from the radars on the incoming missile.With an effective anti-ballistic missile system, India is the fourth country in the world to have a BMD programme. Other countries, which have developed a ballistic missile defence system, includedthe US, Russia and Israel.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pandyan » 01 Mar 2017 10:00

disha wrote:Out with Agni and in with PDV., that is in terms of beauty contest!

Check out the image of PDV in this blog http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/02/25/hit-kill-successfully-demonstrated-drdos-pdv-interceptor/

That is one evil looking missile :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby KBDagha » 01 Mar 2017 11:03

Successful AAD test confirmed by Hemant Rout on twitter :D

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Will » 01 Mar 2017 13:57

Gathering steam :). Time for them to test multiple intercepts and not just against electronic targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 01 Mar 2017 15:10

Will wrote:Gathering steam :). Time for them to test multiple intercepts and not just against electronic targets.


The target was a Prithvi missile and the missile collided with the target besides its pre-fragmented warhead. Interception at 15km altitude.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Will » 01 Mar 2017 22:01

Was refering to intercepts of multiple targets. If am not mistaken this was attempted just once and the second target was an electronic one.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ashishvikas » 01 Mar 2017 22:11

Today’s intercept mission achieved both an actual collision of the AAD test vehicle with the incoming ballistic missile target, as well an explosive intercept, since the pre-fragmented warhead on-board the AAD was also made to explode using the missile’s radio proximity fuze (RPF).

https://youtu.be/QkI9OHGPzkc

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/ ... -bullseye/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 02 Mar 2017 16:50

Note the unfolding wings and canards here https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C55EsA3WAAEHyMZ.jpg:large

JayS, Indranil - any idea on purpose the canards serve? I'm not able to recollect any, nor do any missile in the same class elsewhere have them.

The canards are a new addition - previous versions did not have them

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nam » 02 Mar 2017 20:24

The canards seems to present in Pragati, the G2G version of the missile.

Must be a lesson from Barak 8 development.

I wonder if this missile can be used in boost phase intercept. A big radar at 15-16k feet in Kashmir looking down on Pakistan. SU-30 with AAD intercepting missile in boost phase.

We have the building blocks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 02 Mar 2017 21:32

tsarkar wrote:Note the unfolding wings and canards here https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C55EsA3WAAEHyMZ.jpg:large

JayS, Indranil - any idea on purpose the canards serve? I'm not able to recollect any, nor do any missile in the same class elsewhere have them.

The canards are a new addition - previous versions did not have them



Controllability in the terminal phase?

Moves the Center of Pressure (CP) forward as CG keeps moving forward as fuel depletes.

Note the size of the canards wrt to the aft fins.


Bigger question is are the canards connected to actuators or fixed?

If former then to give more maneuverability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 02 Mar 2017 21:52

A couple of Hi-Res photos from PIB. Click the photo and it will blow up.

1.A view of the Target Missile used by DRDO in the successful test firing of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.

CNR :94047 Photo ID :99432:

Clicky Target Missile

2.Take off view of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile of the DRDO successfully test fired, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.

CNR :94046 Photo ID :99431:

Clicky AAD Endo Atmospheric Interceptor

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 02 Mar 2017 21:59

Any diff between prahaar pragati and pralay?


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