Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Oct 2015 07:23

Karthik S wrote:Any chance of Nirbhay attaining higher range this time? Not sure if increasing the range from 1000 km is a priority.

Karthik, according to a schedule released earlier (about 2 years back), the first two in the series of tests would validate the Nirbhay’s flight management system, inclusive of the digital terrain profile matching sensor (an X-band SAR). The following two will involve the fully integrated missile being test-fired (one over land & one over the sea) from a Su-30MKI, which will be followed by two SLCM versions being test-fired (one over land and one over the sea) from a submerged SSBN, the S-2/Arihant. The final two test-firings will involve fully integrated Nirbhays armed with live conventional warheads, with one being launched from a Su-30MKI and the other from the S-2/Arihant.

Range increase would be for the next version, as far as I can see.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 16 Oct 2015 07:24

The morning starts with good jokes

Is Nirbhay Missile Set for Trial with 'Shortcomings'?
Hemant Kumar Rout
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 080673.ece

A reliable source on Wednesday told this paper that the fuel tank which is used in the missile system has not cleared the Environmental Stress Screening (ESS) tests thus making it vulnerable during flight.

“Not only this, it is still unclear whether the Nirbhay flight control software (NFCS) has undergone Independent Verification and Validation of software. Its fuel tank is yellow banded after the ESS tests, which means it should not be used for actual trial. They have also skipped doing any vibration of it for the fear of failure of any welded joints,” the source informed.

if the sources are to be believed, this time too low manoeuvre is not attempted and the Nirbhay project authorities are desperate to go ahead with the trial even if it does not manoeuvre at low height and restricts between two km and one km flight height.

However, almost all technical issues are said to have been resolved by the LAB chaired by eminent scientist Avinash Chander and Director General (Aeronautics) K Tamilmani at the test range on Wednesday.

Tamilmani did not respond to calls from this paper.

This can be best published in faking news. I do feel that someone in DRDO is having some fun with these journos. Either it could be politics or good fun to see whatever they tell them getting published.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Oct 2015 07:29

It's not clear to me why Hemant Kumar Rout writes reports the way he does. He comes across as cynical and derisive.

If Indians are going to develop the will and pride in developing tech in-house - the media are definitely not going to help

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 16 Oct 2015 07:40

How about deploying Agni I, in a conventional role against PRC. We have reserved these only for strategic uses and the preference is not to use them on PLA in Tibet. It will go against our nuclear doctrine too.

But apart from cruise missiles, which can be countered by SAM systems, PRC has not invested adequately in ABM systems and these are difficult intercepts anyways. Need more fire power and more reach on the lines of the 2nd artillery corps.

An Agni I, can be effectively used to damage PLA/PLAAF assets deep in Tibet.

srin · Post by **srin** » 16 Oct 2015 07:59

uddu wrote:The morning starts with good jokes
Is Nirbhay Missile Set for Trial with 'Shortcomings'?
Hemant Kumar Rout
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 080673.ece

Meanwhile, I'm sure that somewhere in DRDO and MoD, a few people are falling over themselves laughing at the ease of making bakras of journalists ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2015 08:21

I think its inevitable that 1000km range ballistic missiles start getting used by all powers as declared conventional weapons. just cruise missiles are no longer going to hack it looking at the proliferation of advanced SAM systems.

cheen is already moving in that direction.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 16 Oct 2015 11:09

Possible 'Technical Snags' Delays Nirbhay Cruise Missile Test
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 083102.ece

Now the test has been scheduled for 11.45 am,” informed the source.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 16 Oct 2015 11:14

Cruise missile Nirbhay test-fired from third launch pad of Integrated Test Range at Chandipur in Balasore at 11:38 am

http://odishatv.in/cruise-missile-nirbh ... t-1138-am/

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 16 Oct 2015 11:19

ShauryaT wrote:How about deploying Agni I, in a conventional role against PRC. We have reserved these only for strategic uses and the preference is not to use them on PLA in Tibet. It will go against our nuclear doctrine too.

But apart from cruise missiles, which can be countered by SAM systems, PRC has not invested adequately in ABM systems and these are difficult intercepts anyways. Need more fire power and more reach on the lines of the 2nd artillery corps.

An Agni I, can be effectively used to damage PLA/PLAAF assets deep in Tibet.

the very act of launching a ballistic missile is considered to be escalatory in nuclear environment. moment you detect the enemy launching BMs, you should be throwing whatever you have. I am guessing even the Indian strategic doctrine takes this view.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Oct 2015 11:22

uddu wrote:The morning starts with good jokes
Is Nirbhay Missile Set for Trial with 'Shortcomings'?
Hemant Kumar Rout
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 080673.ece

A reliable source on Wednesday told this paper that the fuel tank which is used in the missile system has not cleared the Environmental Stress Screening (ESS) tests thus making it vulnerable during flight.

“Not only this, it is still unclear whether the Nirbhay flight control software (NFCS) has undergone Independent Verification and Validation of software. Its fuel tank is yellow banded after the ESS tests, which means it should not be used for actual trial. They have also skipped doing any vibration of it for the fear of failure of any welded joints,” the source informed.
...
This can be best published in faking news. I do feel that someone in DRDO is having some fun with these journos. Either it could be politics or good fun to see whatever they tell them getting published.

Reminds me of this. https://youtu.be/DrwVB4vMx-Q?t=8s

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 16 Oct 2015 11:39

Cruise missile Nirbhay misses the target after 11 minutes of its test-fire

http://odishatv.in/cruise-missile-nirbh ... test-fire/

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 16 Oct 2015 12:05

Nirbhay, Long-Range Subsonic Cruise Missile Successfully Test-Fired
http://newsworldindia.in/india/nirbhay- ... ed/138247/

Bhubaneswar (Odisha) | Updated: October 16, 2015 12:20 pm 0 21

Nirbhay, India’s long-range subsonic cruise missile from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur, off Odisha coast, was successfully test-fired on Friday.

This was the third developmental trial of nuclear-weapons capable Nirbhay, which has an operational range of 1,000 km.

The first trial in March 2013 had to be aborted midway after the missile deviated from its pre-designated trajectory. The second trial held on October 17, 2014, however, was a resounding success with the missile demonstrating its manoeuvring ability and zeroing in on the target through a steep dive at the pre-designated impact point in the Bay of Bengal.

Similar to Tomahawk

Stated to be similar to the American Tomahawk, the indigenously-developed low-altitude flying Nirbhay can evade radar detection.

The two-stage missile initially lifts off like a rocket and once the first stage gets separated, the wings get deployed as it cruises like an aircraft with the thrust given by turbo-prop engine. The loitering missile has the capability to search and pick its target.

During the last trial, the missile cruised at a speed of 0.7 Mach and successfully navigated 15 waypoints, while manoeuvring towards the pre-designated target of more than 1,000 km after a flight of 70 minutes.

Pre-launch checks

Meanwhile Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) missile scientists have carried out pre-launch checks on Thursday. Top missile scientists told The Hindu that new manoeuvres would be tried during Friday’s mission as compared to the last trial.

The missile has been mainly developed by Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Bengaluru, while Research Centre Imarat and DRDL from Hyderabad also contributed in its development.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Oct 2015 12:31

thammu wrote:Cruise missile Nirbhay misses the target after 11 minutes of its test-fire

http://odishatv.in/cruise-missile-nirbh ... test-fire/

Sounds like last years news

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Oct 2015 12:34

Avinash R wrote:Nirbhay, Long-Range Subsonic Cruise Missile Successfully Test-Fired
http://newsworldindia.in/india/nirbhay- ... ed/138247/

Lungi dance

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 16 Oct 2015 12:35

And no text!!! On the odishatv link

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 16 Oct 2015 12:40

So, do I deploy lungi or not?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 16 Oct 2015 12:46

Not yet. Hold your Lungi.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 16 Oct 2015 12:48

^the 70min flight must have been completed long back, the delay in declaring the test result is worrying.........

member_26535 · Post by **member_26535** » 16 Oct 2015 12:49

-----------
Hemant Rout ‏@Hemant_TNIE 1h1 hour ago
#India As apprehended by 'The Express' Nirbhay #missile develops snags, deviates trajectory mid-way.@NewIndianXpress http://epaper.newindianexpress.com/c/6908303
------------
This Rout guy is smoking something ? Do we have any other update ?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 16 Oct 2015 13:04

juvva wrote:^the 70min flight must have been completed long back, the delay in declaring the test result is worrying.........

Nothing to worry. Either Test will succeed or fail. If succeeded, they will go on to work on the next things else they have to spend few more months in finding the fault and rectifying before testing it again. The tests will keep on going until the time when everyone is fully satisfied that the missile is fully developed to it's true potential and ready for deployment.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2015 13:18

srikven wrote:-----------
Hemant Rout ‏@Hemant_TNIE 1h1 hour ago
#India As apprehended by 'The Express' Nirbhay #missile develops snags, deviates trajectory mid-way.@NewIndianXpress http://epaper.newindianexpress.com/c/6908303
------------
This Rout guy is smoking something ? Do we have any other update ?

Usually, he is pretty accurate and i think something went wrong else would have had confirmation of "success"

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 16 Oct 2015 13:25

sum wrote:
srikven wrote:-----------
Hemant Rout ‏@Hemant_TNIE 1h1 hour ago
#India As apprehended by 'The Express' Nirbhay #missile develops snags, deviates trajectory mid-way.@NewIndianXpress http://epaper.newindianexpress.com/c/6908303
------------
This Rout guy is smoking something ? Do we have any other update ?
Usually, he is pretty accurate and i think something went wrong else would have had confirmation of "success"

Nope. He has been pushing hit pieces on indian missiles. Remember his hit piece on Akash before induction last year?

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 16 Oct 2015 13:32

Argh! Whats with the mystery!?

Lungi deployment delayed!

harish_ch · Post by **harish_ch** » 16 Oct 2015 13:54

Nirbhay cruise missile fails midway

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/nir ... 10877.html

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2015 14:36

^^ SOP of DRDO seems to be:

if success, immediate confirmation and visuals released etc.
If failure, complete silence and generally, HK Rout will break the news first! He seems to have some pretty good sources there.

Anyways, hope we dust it off as a learning curve and get it working in double quick time

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2015 15:10

generally I think a prior long history with big UAVs provides a good skills base to use in CMs but we are having to start from scratch on this. since the engine is proven product from Rus, probably a control system or component failure, as with the first test.

since we are a long way behind Cheen on this, and TSP has been given OTS , completing this project, K4 and A5 has got to be the main priorities now.

Rout has good sources in drdo since he gets tidbits even when team is camping onsite. so maybe his leaks were just team members expressing their disquiet on certain issues after being over ruled.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Oct 2015 15:37

Chill fellows. First of all, we don't know if the failure news is even true.

Even if it is, this is part of developing something so complex. Even given the history that Russia has with missiles spanning more than half a century, four of their much touted Kalibr missiles crashed in Iran on the way to Syrian targets. So, this is just part of testing and operating cruise missiles. They fail from time to time, so much so, that even Khan missiles fail every now and then, which the Chinese can attest to.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2015 15:48

JASSM which is being purchased in 100s now went through a difficult test program that involved no less than 42 tests to IOC. this is from 2004. it was in the doghouse for years with the congress bashing up the program.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-185380/

A further dispute centres on the stated reliability of the JASSM. The appropriators' report claims the programme has a 53% success rate, while the air force insists it is 73.5%. Neither figure meets the standard of programmes such as Boeing's Joint Direct Attack Munition and Raytheon's Joint Standoff Weapon, cited in the Congressional report, but air force officials counter that JASSM's complexity as a stealthy cruise missile does not offer a fair comparison.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 16 Oct 2015 15:55

^Anyway, not much reason to worry about Nirbhay, because natashas can't hawk a alternative due to its 1000 km plus range. Right?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2015 16:00

^ true . none can ...and our membership to MTCR just got rejected due to italys objections

- so its cool, just take the time and fix it.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 16 Oct 2015 17:27

The JASSM program in 2015 is a lot different than what it was much earlier. Here is report from the DOTE report that approved production for the ER.., The DOTE is a Congressionally appointed body that's sole purpose is to feed the Congress with reports it can use to get its way with the services

. Same will happen with Nirbhay, it takes time with capability that is a first of a kind for a particular development team.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2015 17:33

^ thats what I meant exactly. some programs whether due to luck or complexity go through some really bad times.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Oct 2015 18:00

Nirbhay Cruise Missile Deviates From Trajectory, Terminated Mid Air - Hemant kumar Rout, New Indian Express

A developmental test of India’s first home grown cruise missile Nirbhay failed once again with the weapon system deviating from the pre-designated trajectory forcing the mission team to terminate it mid-way on Friday.

Indigenously developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), this nuclear capable missile was test-fired from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) off the Odisha coast at about 11.40 am on Friday. The missile blasted off from a mobile launcher specifically designed for Nirbhay by the Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (VRDE).

But as apprehended by ‘The New Indian Express’ in its previous story, the weapon system developed technical snags during flight and veered off the intended trajectory.

A reliable source said the missile could cover only 129 km in 11 minutes before deviating from the pre-coordinated flight path. “The missile has to be terminated mid-path to prevent damages to human habitation. The missile was to fly nearly one hour and cover full strike range. Forget about attaining low height as set for the mission, the missile could not even travel the desired distance,” the source claimed.

In an earlier report ‘The Express’ had mentioned how the fuel tank which had not cleared the Environmental Stress Screening (ESS) tests was used in Nirbhay-3 making it vulnerable during flight. It had also raised doubts on the Independent Verification and Validation of Nirbhay flight control software (NFCS).

In its first attempt on March 12, 2013, the missile had also behaved in a similar way and swerved, prompting the defence authorities to destroy it mid air. Even as the DRDO had then claimed that the missile covered nearly 200 km in 20 minutes before its deviation from the intended flight path, its wreckages had fallen in Gadaharishpur in Jagatsinghpur district which is nearly 100 km from the launching complex aerially.

Second test of the missile on October 17 last year was however claimed as successful by the DRDO though it could not maintain low height. Nirbhay continued its flight that lasted nearly 73 minutes and covered the desired distance. This time too the DRDO was expecting the missile to perform as coordinated. A few newly developed sub-systems were to be proved during this test.

Sources said some technical glitches had developed prior to the missile launch which reportedly delayed the test for nearly two hours. The missile was made vertical in the morning and the preliminary countdown set for 9.30 am after a special puja and some ceremonial offerings at launching complex. “Sukhoi fighter aircraft also had taken off from Kalaikunda air base to track the missile.

But the countdown was stopped at 3 minute due to some faults probably in the launcher. After sometime, the 20-minute countdown was again set and later it was increased to 50-minute,” the source said. The two-stage missile has a length of six meters, diameter of 0.52 m, wing span 2.7 m and a launch weight of about 1,500 kgs. While the Bengaluru-based Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) has designed the missile, its solid rocket motor booster has been developed by Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL).

Nirbhay has been designed to have good loitering and maneuvering capability, best control and guidance, high degree of accuracy in terms of impact and stealth features. The cruise missile having a strike range of around 1,000 km is expected to supplement the Indo-Russian joint venture supersonic cruise missile BrahMos, which can carry warheads up to 290 km.

While the authorities of ITR were tightlipped, Director General of DRDO Selvin Christopher and Director General (Aeronautics) K Tamilmani did not respond calls from ‘The Express’.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 16 Oct 2015 18:31

sudhan wrote:So, do I deploy lungi or not?

srin · Post by **srin** » 16 Oct 2015 19:46

The tone of glee in Rout's article is sickening.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 16 Oct 2015 19:53

He looks to be a correspondent in the "local" version of the larger NEI paper, and thinks that by writing like this he will get famous on the national stage.

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 16 Oct 2015 21:00

Sitanshu Kar (@SpokespersonMoD) tweeted at 7:53 PM on Fri, Oct 16, 2015:
Here's the press release on the Nirbhay Missile. http://t.co/fNwdkWvACg

So test was meant for only 700 Secs ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 16 Oct 2015 21:05

looks like the missile need not go all way to realize the objectives

some one should tell that rout chap to go and jump into the nearest well

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 16 Oct 2015 21:22

But why not continue with the full course?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Oct 2015 21:46

rout's confidence is from his disparaging source. Read the underlying tone of the source.

Also DRDO should have a spokesman to contact and not direct line to higher officers.

So what do we know about this flight:
- Booster ignited. No known issues
- Booster separation.
- engine ignition
- wing deployed.
- Flew ~11+ minutes. Aborted
- Reason given is nearing populated areas. So could be guidance & control issues.

Must be busy poring over data.

DRDO has been front with its issues. Will get to root cause.