Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jan 2017 21:08

Under Rajiv Gandhi, India was ready with H-Bomb to counter Pakistan's Nukes
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250063

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2017 21:09

Hopefully with a ogival nose cone and composite 1st stage

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jan 2017 21:26

India's proven, in-service Akash surface-to-air missile system.
Vietnam likely to sign on as the 1st foreign customer soon.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/823825526146015232

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2017 22:01

shiv wrote:Prithvis come with 5-6 different types of conventional warhead - the Agni 1 will replace only the "strategic" (ie nukular) role

Because Prithvis also had nuclear warheads they ended being unusable as TSP and US would claim threshold breach.

Now with them being replaced it gives more teeth to the Cold Start Deep battle operationalization.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2017 22:04

kit wrote:
Pratyush wrote: To confirm the beliefs.
.. dude you should be put in charge for psy ops

He is.
But seriously he shouldn't confirm or deny what he came to know.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2017 22:08

ashishvikas wrote:Ajay Shukla - DRDO successfully test fires its new, enhanced range, guided Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher. Claims 25 metre accuracy at 75 kilometres.

https://t.co/B9JIFWHkDX

CEP 25m at 75 Km what are they using? What was earlier CEP without guidance?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2017 22:08

Anyone know the rate of the RLG being used on the Nirbhay?

Typical RLG by Honeywell is about 900 degree/sec
This translates to 900/360 = 2.5 revolutions per sec.

Now will the mis-deployed/skewed wings cause the Nirbhay to rotate about its longitudinal greater than 2.5 rps and thus lose frame of reference in the 1.5 secs?

I guess the Failure Investigation team would have seen the telemetry and the video.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Jan 2017 22:09

Prahaar, Nirbhay and brahmos-M are the ideal missiles for Cold start along with the 155mm 52 cal and Pinaka's. Anything else is an overkill for pakis.

With 75 Km range the Pinaka-1 mk2 is already making smerch go obsolete. Hopefully Pinaka-II (100-120 km) is developed soon and deployed in numbers. Paki wet dream of Nasr will end with that.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2017 22:11

Supratik,

Pralay has a composite radome. Gives an idea of its intended role.
I should have mentioned this instead of sending you on wild goose chase.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2017 22:12

Rakesh wrote:Under Rajiv Gandhi, India was ready with H-Bomb to counter Pakistan's Nukes
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250063

Rakesh, Please post the gist of it atleast. The site is not loading for me.
And why in this thread and not the Deterrence thread?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 24 Jan 2017 22:13

Mk2 is 5000 km. Hopefully there will be a salvo firing of Mk1, 2-4 missiles from Arihant some day.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jan 2017 22:14

Ramana...I could not find a nuclear thread. Sorry. I will post it there.

I am afraid to post whole articles due to copyright issues.

Added Later: I have posted the entire article in the Deterrence Thread.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 24 Jan 2017 22:49

Ramana,

You are the guru. Maybe they are mixing up things.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2017 23:42

Rakesh Thanks.

Its based on declassified reports so where is copy left issues?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jan 2017 23:59

Ramana, it is not about de-classifiation. It is about the website that is hosting the article. The article belongs to them. Some of these sites get all bothered when entire articles are posted. A good example would be Jane`s. To read the entire article you have to be a subscribed member and it is a no-no to post whole articles on other sites.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jan 2017 00:09

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2017 00:26

ramana wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Ajay Shukla - DRDO successfully test fires its new, enhanced range, guided Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher. Claims 25 metre accuracy at 75 kilometres.

https://t.co/B9JIFWHkDX
CEP 25m at 75 Km what are they using? What was earlier CEP without guidance?

The state of art is 10m, immaterial of the range. They use GPS-guidance. 25 mtr is probably with TCS.

Artillery rockets burn their fuel in about the first 5 seconds and the unguided ones only have stabilizer units but no steering mechanism whatsoever. There accuracy is not high as their range changes significantly with air temperature and wind gusts. Typically, their accuracy is stated in terms of percentage of range. For Pinaka MkI, this was around 1.5% of range, which is state-of-the-art. So, at 75 kilometers you are looking at a deviation of more than a km. without guidance.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 25 Jan 2017 00:34

Indranil wrote:If I am not wrong the following tender is for Agni 1P: Design, Manufacturing & Supply of Drilling cum Machining Fixture of Composite Canister

If so, the missile is roughly going to 0.8 meters wide and 8 mtrs long. IT will be canisterized and will roughly weigh around 6 Tons.

Indranil had posted this a while back. If looks like the canister is for Agni1-P, Pralay or what ever you want to call it. There may be a variant of Agni1-P that will incorporate AShM capabilities.

http://idrw.org/5-missiles-which-india- ... -pakistan/

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2017 01:18

Bheesma, Pralay and Agni 1P are different missiles. Comparable ranges, but different roles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jan 2017 01:19

Indranil, Thanks.

If Guided Pinaka Mk II is 25m CEP at 75 km then the payload is a sub munitions type.

Its not good enough for unitary blast warhead. Maybe for fragmentation with pellets. This may be best option cluster/sub-munitions with dud rate would lead to fratricide for follow-on troops.

GP-II is similar to GMLRS from US.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2017 01:48

Already in the making.

Had reported this earlier.

Indranil wrote:I just saw a tender for Vane type Parachute system Type A as per spec. no. ARDE/Pinaka/Parachute/01/2015 as per list 3. It is supposed to be used on Pinaka Mk2 to deliver "remotely delivered munitions". So, I started to look up for "remotely delivered munitions, and chanced onthis paper.

Other than the above, Pinaka Mk1 already employs a variety of warheads like PF, RHE and incendiary. All of them work with Mk2.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 25 Jan 2017 03:32

Thanks Indranil, so does than mean Pralay is the AShM variant of Shaurya?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Jan 2017 08:20

I don't know exactly what Pralay is, but here is what I know:
1. It has almost the same dimensions as Shaurya.
2. The nose is more ogival and made of ceramics. So I expect Pralay to have a shallower and slower trajectory than Agni1P
3. Agni-1Ps nose is conical, optimized for ballistic flights.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2017 08:42

^^ ramana said pralay has composite nose(indicating radar inside), you say its ceramic(indicating high low atmospheric speed). who is right?

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 25 Jan 2017 10:09

On a side note, missile malfunction is not limited to desh. Brexis also had malfunction and missile veered towards florida

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/report ... spartandhp

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Jan 2017 10:41

Mango post alert:

What about our production capabilities? From what I read we can make some 10k Pinaka a year and 100 Bramhos. Apart from that no information on others in any open source outlets. We need some serious manufacturing capabilities to counter China which seems to make almost 1000 units of various kinds with various ranges.

We read no information on the money invested or production facilities etc at all. Is it because of OSA etc?

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 25 Jan 2017 10:56

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=157653

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
24-January-2017 19:39 IST
Successful Test Firing of Guided PINAKA

DRDO successfully test fired the Guided PINAKA from Launch Complex-III, ITR, Chandipur today at 12:45 PM for further enhanced range. PINAKA Rocket Mark-II, equipped with navigation, guidance and control kit, is transformed to a Guided PINAKA. The conversion has facilitated to enhance the range and improve the accuracy of PINAKA. The Mission met all the objectives. The Radars, Electro Optical and Telemetry Systems at ITR Chandipur tracked and monitored the vehicle all through the flight path. The guided PINAKA is developed combinedly by ARDE Pune, RCI and DRDL, Hyderabad. ITR, Chandipur provided the range and launch support.

SA to RM and DG (Missiles and Strategic Systems) Dr G Satheesh Reddy who was present during the launch operations said that the success of Guided PINAKA has reinforced the technological strength of the country in converting unguided systems into weapons of high precision. Director ARDE, Pune Dr KM Rajan, Director, RCI, Hyderabad Shri BHVS Narayana Murthy, Director, ITR, Chandipur Dr BK Das, Director HEMRL, Pune Shri KPS Murthy and, Director PXE, Chandipur Shri R Appavuraj monitored the Launch operations.

The Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar congratulated both the Army and the DRDO for developing the Guided PINAKA in a very short span of time. Secretary, Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO Dr S Christopher applauded this shining example of the synergy between the Armed Forces and the DRDO. DG, (Armament & Combat Engineering Systems), DRDO Shri Pravin K Mehta also congratulated team Pinaka for their successful endeavour.

The Deputy Chief of Army Staff (P&S) Lt Gen Subrata Saha, DG Artillery Lt Gen PK Srivastava and other Senior Army Officers witnessed the successful launch.

NW/NAo/Ranjan

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jan 2017 13:55

With the range of Pinaka equal to that of Smerch,there would be no need of further units of thst system.However,are there any differing capabilities in the two systems,are they complementary?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 25 Jan 2017 14:14

Smerch is 300 mm vs Pinakas 214 mm

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 25 Jan 2017 16:58

Rakesh wrote:Under Rajiv Gandhi, India was ready with H-Bomb to counter Pakistan's Nukes
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250063

From comments section:

If you read complete Article you will came to know ... Rajiv Gandhi did nothing actually but paid Media is promoting Rajiv Gandhi instead of Atal Bihari Vajpayee ..... Last Paragraph is Most Important .... "The Rajiv Gandhi government didn’t go ahead with the testing. It was in 1998 under Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee that India again conducted nuclear tests."
Like · Reply · Mark as spam · 59 · Jan 23, 2017 7:53pm

Defence News
Yeah Congress Paid CIA for this news.After hearing this news people will vote for congress in all five state.Bhai don't become bjp bhakt .I also remind you first nuclear bomb test was done by Indira Gandhi if you forget
Like · Reply · Mark as spam · 15 · Jan 23, 2017 8:27pm

Avinash Srivastava
Owner at Black Ink
Defence News

Yes i know credit for First Test goes to Indira Gandhi .... but here this Article by ET is not about First Test. Not everyone will read full Article & post reading Headline one could easily presume that credit for this goes to RG. Paid Media works like that Only. I have objection on this.

I am not BJP Bhakt but Truth is Truth .... & Truth remains that tests were conducted under the Leadership of Great Atal Bihari Vajpayee.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2017 23:39

New, lethal Pinaka scores bulls-eye in testing
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/01/n ... ye-in.html

The Pinaka rocket delivers 100 kilograms (225 lbs) of high explosive onto the target. Each Pinaka launcher has 12 rockets in its tubes, which can all be fired within 44 seconds. That means a Pinaka battery, which has six launchers, can pummel a target with 7.2 tonnes of high explosive in just 44 seconds. The Pinaka rocket’s “pre-formed fragmented” (PF) warhead is a masterpiece in lethality. The blast of high explosive when it strikes the target breaks the warhead’s casing into 21,000 high-density, tungsten alloy spears that hurtle across the target area, tearing through anything in their paths.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 25 Jan 2017 23:52

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Under Rajiv Gandhi, India was ready with H-Bomb to counter Pakistan's Nukes
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250063
From comments section:

Rajiv Gandhi did nothing actually

That would be the PM who actually ordered weaponization

All Indian PMs have supported the nuclear deterrent and their delivery systems. Even Desai.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 26 Jan 2017 00:05

Jan. 29 thru 31 (daily, 0630z to 1030z) : area closed for ballistic missile??? test of India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2017 00:49

^^^ Above is for K4 test expected. See Kurup's post on previous page.

----
From Philip in the Navy Thread....
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18300/ ... 96M8[quote]
India To Test Long Range Submarine Launched Nuclear Missile Next Week
Our Bureau10:56 AM, January 23,

India To Test Long Range Submarine Launched Nuclear Missile Next Week - A +
India’s Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will test launch its long range nuke-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) K-4 from an underwater platform at the end of this month.
The indigenously built underwater missile, having a strike range of around 3,500 km, will be test fired from a submerged pontoon, which is almost identical to a submarine on January 31, New Indian Express reported today.
The missile has been designed to be launched from a depth of 50 metres. However, this time the scientists are planning to fire it from the undersea platform nearly 20-30 meter deep in the Bay of Bengal.
“While the preparation for the test is going on in full swing, tracking equipment has been moved in ships to be placed at test location and point of impact,” a defense official was quoted as saying by the news daily.

K-4 missile weighs around 17 tonne and is capable of carrying a warhead of around two tonne. Further it has a length of 12 metres and diameter of 1.3 metres.
Basically a ballistic missile, the K-4 combines the aspects of both cruise and ballistic missile, which use multiple-stage rockets to exit the atmosphere and re-enter in a parabolic trajectory.
The country’s first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant, which has already been inducted in the Indian Navy, will be equipped with the K-series missiles.

Apart from the 700-km range K-15, renamed as B-05, which has been test fired several times and K-4, India has one more missile in the series.
SLBM K-5 having a striking capability of over 5,000 km is under development.
All the K-series missiles are faster, lighter and stealthier. The missiles are far more difficult to tackle as they sulk clandestinely undersea and manoeuvrable thus minimising the chance to be shot down by the enemy.

Apart from the K-series missiles, India has the submarine version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal to boost its second-strike capabilities. The DRDO is also developing the air version of K-series missiles which can be fitted with fighter aircraft.
The DRDO is expecting a successful trial of the missile as it would strengthen the country’s position in the exclusive club of six nations including Russia, USA, France, Britain and China which have the capability of firing missiles from air, land and undersea..[/quote]

To me odd that they want to do pontoon firings still. It could mean the Arihant currently has the K-15 missiles and not the K-4. Or this pontoon trial is a MIRV.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2017 01:32

Rakesh wrote:New, lethal Pinaka scores bulls-eye in testing
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/01/n ... ye-in.html

The Pinaka rocket delivers 100 kilograms (225 lbs) of high explosive onto the target. Each Pinaka launcher has 12 rockets in its tubes, which can all be fired within 44 seconds. That means a Pinaka battery, which has six launchers, can pummel a target with 7.2 tonnes of high explosive in just 44 seconds. The Pinaka rocket’s “pre-formed fragmented” (PF) warhead is a masterpiece in lethality. The blast of high explosive when it strikes the target breaks the warhead’s casing into 21,000 high-density, tungsten alloy spears that hurtle across the target area, tearing through anything in their paths.

good article. It address my question about what is the guidance. Its the G3OM chip. No RLG business. So its very cost effective. And the 25m CEP is good for the preformed pre-fragmented warhead as I had guessed.
One big advantage is it does not leave duds from sub-munitions that could impede follow-on own forces. The tungsten 'spears' would penetrate most concrete walls. Pre-forming delivers the spears.

I wish to know the bulls eye size.
GAGAN has very good resolution.

GP-II is similar to US GMLRS.

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Jan 2017 14:10

ramana wrote:^^^ Above is for K4 test expected. See Kurup's post on previous page.

----
From Philip in the Navy Thread....
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18300/ ... 96M8[quote]
India To Test Long Range Submarine Launched Nuclear Missile Next Week
Our Bureau10:56 AM, January 23,

India To Test Long Range Submarine Launched Nuclear Missile Next Week - A +
India’s Defense Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) will test launch its long range nuke-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) K-4 from an underwater platform at the end of this month.
The indigenously built underwater missile, having a strike range of around 3,500 km, will be test fired from a submerged pontoon, which is almost identical to a submarine on January 31, New Indian Express reported today.
The missile has been designed to be launched from a depth of 50 metres. However, this time the scientists are planning to fire it from the undersea platform nearly 20-30 meter deep in the Bay of Bengal.
“While the preparation for the test is going on in full swing, tracking equipment has been moved in ships to be placed at test location and point of impact,” a defense official was quoted as saying by the news daily.

K-4 missile weighs around 17 tonne and is capable of carrying a warhead of around two tonne. Further it has a length of 12 metres and diameter of 1.3 metres.
Basically a ballistic missile, the K-4 combines the aspects of both cruise and ballistic missile, which use multiple-stage rockets to exit the atmosphere and re-enter in a parabolic trajectory.
The country’s first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant, which has already been inducted in the Indian Navy, will be equipped with the K-series missiles.

Apart from the 700-km range K-15, renamed as B-05, which has been test fired several times and K-4, India has one more missile in the series.
SLBM K-5 having a striking capability of over 5,000 km is under development.
All the K-series missiles are faster, lighter and stealthier. The missiles are far more difficult to tackle as they sulk clandestinely undersea and manoeuvrable thus minimising the chance to be shot down by the enemy.

Apart from the K-series missiles, India has the submarine version of BrahMos supersonic cruise missile in its arsenal to boost its second-strike capabilities. The DRDO is also developing the air version of K-series missiles which can be fitted with fighter aircraft.
The DRDO is expecting a successful trial of the missile as it would strengthen the country’s position in the exclusive club of six nations including Russia, USA, France, Britain and China which have the capability of firing missiles from air, land and undersea..

To me odd that they want to do pontoon firings still. It could mean the Arihant currently has the K-15 missiles and not the K-4. Or this pontoon trial is a MIRV.[/quote]

The 2 ton payload looks designed for MIRV capability

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 26 Jan 2017 14:37

Arihant has already launched the K4 missile from its tubes as per reports

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 26 Jan 2017 16:03

That was for Mk1, this is for mk2 reportedly in 5000-8000 km range. This will most likely be ready for Aridhaman.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Jan 2017 18:27

Gerard wrote:
That would be the PM who actually ordered weaponization

All Indian PMs have supported the nuclear deterrent and their delivery systems. Even Desai.

I used to think Nehru, morarji, gujral and mms were against it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jan 2017 19:17

jamwal wrote:Some open source information about Agni missiles that I've collected . Nothing really new, just something to make sense of data:

Many thanks for taking the trouble. Just what I wanted. Like a man with 25 sons all of whom are called Abdul - I am completely lost about what each Agni iteration did, does or will do..