Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 17 May 2016 21:07

Ramana sir, nailed it.

UB the problem is the woeful underfunding and limited testing budget for the R&D program. This leads to long gestation from lab prototype to production grade.
Meantime:
- Adversaries get imported force multipliers for free from US and China.
- the forces get tired and also demand imported maal.
- politicians get kickback from foreign arms peddlers
- Which is why the local R&D program was underfunded!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 May 2016 21:26

U forgot the biggest element:
The Indian taxpayer's hardworking rupees get converted at ever-worsening conversion rates to dollars to fund the companies that develop and give the next-gen weapons to the adversaries, tightening the vicious spiral. This is what makes it criminal on the part of the desi jarnail-baboon-ddm crowd, all of whom (esp the last!!) apparently get fed extremely well by the baksheesh.

Just out of curiosity, can u pls direct me to ANY articles/books/blogs from desh/by desis on the above vicious spiral? If one were to do such a blog, one has to start from Prior Work, hain? I don't know of any, even when notorious 6-th coujin wrote on Ell See Ay against Admire-All 'Golf' Nadkarni demanding shutdown of LCA program "now that it has been demonstrated".

Does mullah shoe-claw get into such things? How about Strategic Writers who wax eloquent on new clear detergents?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 17 May 2016 21:28

IOW, is there a Rajiv Malhotra on desh side in these things?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 May 2016 22:45

ramana wrote:Gyan, The helicopter lost in Kargil was the only one without chaff dispensers (told by one of those in the know). All the rest had them. I wish you use some of the gnan your name suggests.
Continuous rants don't help.

UB the problem is the woeful underfunding and limited testing budget for the R&D program. This leads to long gestation from lab prototype to production grade.
Meantime:
- Adversaries get imported force multipliers for free from US and China.
- the forces get tired and also demand imported maal.
- politicians get kickback from foreign arms peddlers
- Which is why the local R&D program was underfunded!

Are you claiming IAF was adequately equipped with flare dispensers, then you have been had. Check with your source again. Assuming, you are correct, even then IAF was not able to rustle up 4 helos with flare dispensers.

What about Canberra, Mig-21, Mig-27 that were hit? The honesty of IAF Brass is in full display nowadays, to say the least.

Top ranks are heavily politicized and their focus is on costly shiny toys for reasons that are obvious rather than mundane items.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2016 11:44

Social Activities of Brahmos , Good Read

Brahmos Aerospace: Working For Well Being of Communities

http://brahmand.com/news/page3.pdf

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 May 2016 12:57

Gyan, in 1999, IAF was in no great shape viz a vis neglect by politicos and a bad economic state. When they came in, the NDA Govt was busy trying to fix the economy and their advisors, babus would wring their hands - it took Kargil for funding to open up. IAF AHQ had moved proposals for chaff and flares to MOD years before and babus had sat on them for a decade. This was first hand info from a p!ssed off pilot at the time.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 18 May 2016 13:23

India successfully test fires indigenously developed nuclear capable Prithvi-II missile (I wonder which missile was tested in guise this time

)
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 323043.cms

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 May 2016 14:09

UlanBatori wrote:U forgot the biggest element:
The Indian taxpayer's hardworking rupees get converted at ever-worsening conversion rates to dollars to fund the companies that develop and give the next-gen weapons to the adversaries, tightening the vicious spiral. This is what makes it criminal on the part of the desi jarnail-baboon-ddm crowd, all of whom (esp the last!!) apparently get fed extremely well by the baksheesh.

Just out of curiosity, can u pls direct me to ANY articles/books/blogs from desh/by desis on the above vicious spiral? If one were to do such a blog, one has to start from Prior Work, hain? I don't know of any, even when notorious 6-th coujin wrote on Ell See Ay against Admire-All 'Golf' Nadkarni demanding shutdown of LCA program "now that it has been demonstrated".

Does mullah shoe-claw get into such things? How about Strategic Writers who wax eloquent on new clear detergents?

To write all this requires breaking the code of omerta that governs the entire nexus Ramana has described above.

I mentioned the details here as well.

I would not have made these posts earlier, for obvious reasons. And there is still a risk involved in mentioning the details. The depth of rot is mind boggling.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p2008318
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p2008365
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p2008291
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p2008300

I made the exact same point Ramana did. People who are interested can recognize the patterns.

In the prior dispensation/s, the following things were de jure.

1. Arms import acquisitions are a good way to get no questions asked big ticket funding
2. Trickle feed local programs which are constantly kept under want of resources and NEVER get the funding they project to MOD.
3. Use delays accruing from above as further excuse to do 1.
4. Put pliant folks at every level - across all areas who cooperate with 1-3.

I am yet to see the current GOI reassure us, the common citizen, that we are safe. That will only happen when the dramatis personae in the AW and other cases are brought to justice.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 18 May 2016 21:04

UlanBatori wrote:U forgot the biggest element:
The Indian taxpayer's hardworking rupees get converted at ever-worsening conversion rates to dollars to fund the companies that develop and give the next-gen weapons to the adversaries, tightening the vicious spiral. This is what makes it criminal on the part of the desi jarnail-baboon-ddm crowd, all of whom (esp the last!!) apparently get fed extremely well by the baksheesh.

Just out of curiosity, can u pls direct me to ANY articles/books/blogs from desh/by desis on the above vicious spiral? If one were to do such a blog, one has to start from Prior Work, hain? I don't know of any, even when notorious 6-th coujin wrote on Ell See Ay against Admire-All 'Golf' Nadkarni demanding shutdown of LCA program "now that it has been demonstrated".

Does mullah shoe-claw get into such things? How about Strategic Writers who wax eloquent on new clear detergents?

I had onece long back posted this ( may be slight OT, but very much similar to current affairs)

https://hbr.org/1993/11/development-dem ... -telephone

Shree SAM pitroda came back from US to set up C-dot to design and develop Electronic exchanges when we had mechanical exchanges. it was a telecom revolution where in lot of private sector companies jumped to manufacture them to supply to DoT. But Mantry-Baboons-ddms ensured it is butchered. Spec were drastically changed by DoT and tenders were called 1 week later. Lots and lots of companies and valuable manpower were left on the streets when DoT started importing equipment. You can read all that in the above article

In my opinion:
Shri SAM Pitroda = Dr. Kalam
CDot = DRDO

DoT ( later BSNL) = Indian armed forces
Mantrys then ( Ummicryshnan, Pt.Sookhrom )et all == yesteryear's upavasis
Montry/ baboon/ DDM killed the CDoT. Now India imports practically everything..

BSNL(once DoT) played in the hands of Montry's hands have dug up their own pit. Armed forces personnel should note this seriously.

Now DRDO is in the same situation of CDoT where mantrys/baboon are rigging them left and right. Some how it is enduring.

JMT

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 18 May 2016 21:33

Karan M wrote:Ramana sir, nailed it.

UB the problem is the woeful underfunding and limited testing budget for the R&D program. This leads to long gestation from lab prototype to production grade.
Meantime:
- Adversaries get imported force multipliers for free from US and China.
- the forces get tired and also demand imported maal.
- politicians get kickback from foreign arms peddlers
- Which is why the local R&D program was underfunded!

Indian military capex is hardly the largest resource available to politicos to extract rent out of ? Why can't they just dip their beaks into infrastructure expenditure, MNREGA and a thousand other social sector projects ? USD 50 million is peanuts, compared to 2G, 3G, Coal etc. Why even do it and then risk the charge of anti-national. After all the congress is going nowhere and intends to live to fight another day. Surely the evil congress is capable of understanding that much. I think the explanation is far more prosaic - very low tax to gdp ratio implies high levels of corruption. Given that, our politicos find it very hard to get anything done overboard, even if they were so inclined. Idealogical economic preferences means getting out of the situation is even harder.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 May 2016 01:51

They say it's Prithvi test but Photu tells different story

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 May 2016 02:25

KrishnaK wrote: Indian military capex is hardly the largest resource available to politicos to extract rent out of ? Why can't they just dip their beaks into infrastructure expenditure, MNREGA and a thousand other social sector projects ? USD 50 million is peanuts, compared to 2G, 3G, Coal etc. Why even do it and then risk the charge of anti-national. After all the congress is going nowhere and intends to live to fight another day. Surely the evil congress is capable of understanding that much. I think the explanation is far more prosaic - very low tax to gdp ratio implies high levels of corruption. Given that, our politicos find it very hard to get anything done overboard, even if they were so inclined. Idealogical economic preferences means getting out of the situation is even harder.

$50Mn is just peanuts compared to the lifecycle of the products and also, arms deals get you direct forex & other sorts of kickbacks.
Its good icing on cake while local loot goes on unabated. In recent years local loot this 2G, that 4G has picked up. In years erstwhile, the purchases of big tickets were where the moolah was. And continues. Nobody opposes big imports because to do that is anti-national.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 19 May 2016 02:43

Jhujar wrote:They say it's Prithvi test but Photu tells different story

Good.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 May 2016 02:44

KrishnaK wrote: Indian military capex is hardly the largest resource available to politicos to extract rent out of ? Why can't they just dip their beaks into infrastructure expenditure.....

Personal loot for the military imported capex kickbacks. Mainly (though not exclusively) party funding with domestic shenanigans. Overseas kicks are more discreet, safer to park, can be routed into India via FII investments if needed locally. And the amounts are not small. I think only the US FMS route is safe, though I could be wrong.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 May 2016 02:46

Thats RLV-TD clearly.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 19 May 2016 03:47

Prithvi II testing been going since 1996, now its become quite boring to hear its launches even now in 2016.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 May 2016 06:04

Missiles are always improved, so new tests are required. Also, with an inventory of missiles, quality control dictates random testing. I think they should have some worthwhile target such as Hafeez Saeed's car, but that's just my opinion. I assume that each test has some improvement in CEP, reaction time, liftoff time, etc etc.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 19 May 2016 06:10

Or something else was tested and passed off as Prithvi-II.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 19 May 2016 07:32

Karan M wrote: $50Mn is just peanuts compared to the lifecycle of the products and also, arms deals get you direct forex & other sorts of kickbacks. Its good icing on cake while local loot goes on unabated.

From the perspective of being rational actors, why would a political part with the memory of Bofors, HDW go for this again. Is the risk worth merely the icing ?

In recent years local loot this 2G, that 4G has picked up. In years erstwhile, the purchases of big tickets were where the moolah was.

I doubt that, but even so why do it now ? Incidentally, the Congress nationalized banks in 1970 putting the savings of the entire nation at their beck and call.

OT, so I'll stop, but it doesn't make much sense.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 19 May 2016 14:09

Jhujar wrote:They say it's Prithvi test but Photu tells different story

Interesting seems like F-16XL wing. If Prithvi is given such a wing then it's range may increase from 350km to 700km.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 May 2016 20:00

You think that is an F-16XL like wing?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 May 2016 20:18

More likeBuran?
There is no requirement for low-speed maneuvering/dogfighting on this thing, I imagine, but it may have hypersonic/hi-supersonic 'cross-range capability' aka aerodynamic lift/

Oh! I was wondering where the wing-trailing edge control surfaces were - they are there, deflected, and they are LARGE!

Big-time supersonic maneuvering onlee.

Re-entry aiming 4 LaHore, actual impact in Karachi

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 May 2016 20:36

Something does NOT compute in this image. When I saw the photo in the newspaper today, I thought that it was ISRO's RLV-TD . The caption said Prithvi II . For a Prithvi II, this definitely is no a deployable weapon, unless they incorporate wing fold and fin fold so that it can be actually used. No one is going to lug a plane around in roads and trains and then jack it upright and fire.

If this IS indeed a Prithvi II, well, it is now a full fledged maneuvering re-entry vehcile, more of a space shuttle / hypersonic plane kind of thing and not a ballistic missile anymore, and of course, the range etc, will be far higher than a ballistic prithvi and conventional anti BMD defenses would be flummoxed by it (cant calculate an intercept point based on pure ballistics anymore!). This is really overkill for pakistan.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 19 May 2016 20:45

^Reusable? Maybe with loiter time?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 May 2016 21:44

They mixed up the pics, guys..
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 438189.ece

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 19 May 2016 22:37

This is not Prithvi-II. It is RLV-TD for the HEX experiment. Ulan sir, you are very right. It has hypersonic maneuverability. HEX stands for (hypersonic experiment) For the current HEX-01 experiment, it will start its descend from 70 km at 5.5M. Obviously, it has to do maneuvers to bleed off the energy. It will simulate landing maneuvers, before splashing into the sea.

After the HEX experiments are done which will validate the materials and the aerodynamics of the vehicle, they will have LEX (landing experiment), REX (return flight experiment), and SPEX(Scramjet propulsion experiment). LEX will be done by dropping the RLV-TDs from aircrafts from 5km or more. This will allow landing on strips which have a length of 2 kms. India needs to build landing strips longer than 5km to handle landing of the real thing. In the meanwhile, they are already flight testing the Scramjet, Ramjet and dual scramjet/ramjet engines on sounding rockets.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 May 2016 01:53

Wow! Wonder if they have also LACEX (LaHore Crater Experiment) to go with the supersonic combustion thingy.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 20 May 2016 07:42

Has ISRO performed any glide tests on this prototype before sending it in sub orbital flight?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 May 2016 08:06

Sid wrote:Has ISRO performed any glide tests on this prototype before sending it in sub orbital flight?

Developed at the VSSC, each component in the `95 crore RLV-TD project has undergone rigorous testing, VSSC officials said. This include 120 hours of wind tunnel tests, 5000 runs of computational fluid dynamics and 1100 runs of flight simulation tests.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 May 2016 09:33

Bheeshma wrote:Or something else was tested and passed off as Prithvi-II.

VERY LIKELY

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 20 May 2016 09:35

vina wrote:
Something does NOT compute in this image. When I saw the photo in the newspaper today, I thought that it was ISRO's RLV-TD . The caption said Prithvi II . For a Prithvi II, this definitely is no a deployable weapon, unless they incorporate wing fold and fin fold so that it can be actually used. No one is going to lug a plane around in roads and trains and then jack it upright and fire.

If this IS indeed a Prithvi II, well, it is now a full fledged maneuvering re-entry vehcile, more of a space shuttle / hypersonic plane kind of thing and not a ballistic missile anymore, and of course, the range etc, will be far higher than a ballistic prithvi and conventional anti BMD defenses would be flummoxed by it (cant calculate an intercept point based on pure ballistics anymore!). This is really overkill for pakistan.

There is no such thing as overkill. We kill the enemy nobody on our side gets killed/injured. That's the final objective

Sorry for a rant

Sorry for being OT

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 20 May 2016 12:05

Where is the air intake? Also would this peaceful experiment have a flower delivery range of 5000 km?

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 May 2016 12:20

Gyan, this is not a hypersonic engine test and judging from the thermal blankets, is a space vehicle. So no intakes.

Apparently, it is a lob into strato, using the venerable SLV-3 first stage (aka PSLV boosters) and a short glide back to sea. They dont have the required runway for anything else and no-one must have been ready to release paisa for an ram-air/aerofoil type steerable parachute landing back at SHAR

The future tests might see them lugged up using a Mi-26 or something and dropped for a wheeled landing.

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 20 May 2016 13:19

Folks from Bengaluru, Karela would have had the opportunity to go past this beauty if they traveled to BTP.
That certainly is not a missile and is most certainly the TD. hnair sir, per the diagrams, it is semi cryo -- so this is the vehicle that carries the second stage, right?

http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/scienc ... 603759.ece
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/education/ ... 69216.html

More here: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index ... ic=25695.0

As a low-cost testbed (not a prototype), the RLV-TD will carry out a series of experiments: HEX, LEX, REX, and SPEX.

HEX (Hypersonic Flight Experiment) will see the RLV-TD launched on a rocket booster high above the atmosphere, and then released to glide back into the atmosphere at hypersonic velocity. Note that this will be a glide, and not an engine-powered flight, but it will be able to test the airframe and control systems. RLV-TD will then land in the ocean and be recovered.

LEX (Landing Experiment) will have the RLV-TD fitted with landing gear. It will be flown on a large transport plane and then dropped, so that it can glide down to a landing strip, deploy its landing gear and land like a regular aircraft.

REX (Return flight Experiment) will have RLV-TD fitted with jet engines that will allow it to take off from an airstrip like a regular aircraft. It will then fly around and return back to land on the strip like a regular aircraft.

Finally SPEX (Scramjet Propulsion Experiment) will have RLV-TD further fitted with a scramjet engine. It will get to take off from an airstrip like a regular aircraft, but once in flight it will accelerate to supersonic speed, after which it will activate its air-breathing scramjet engine and accelerate to hypersonic velocity. The scramjet will then switch off and the vehicle will decelerate until it can reactivate its normal jet engines and then return to land at the landing strip like a regular aircraft.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 May 2016 13:32

DexterM, that is a concept diagram, which is unfit for consumption beyond ppts. This one will ride atop a SRB

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 May 2016 14:54

5000 runs of computational fluid dynamics and 1100 runs of flight simulation tests.

Let me say a prayer for any poor souls hu happen 2 b under the Simulated and Computationally Perfectly Agreed Flight Path when it first comes down. I remember that phone call around bees saal pehle:

Help! V r digging holes in the (Gobi) desert floor every time it is released from a Bator-panch-do

Also a victim of See Eff Dee until (never mind).

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 May 2016 15:04

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 20 May 2016 22:46

Its a scale version of Indian space shuttle, not sure why people are trying to equate it with SpaceX launch vehicle.

As UB ji has very vividly explained, I was hoping for some Phoenix type (scaled down version of Hopper) which was glide tested before sent to knock on heaven's gate.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 May 2016 23:30

Will RLV-TD be ISRO's first winged/aerofoil vehicle?

Aside from the sounding rockets have they ever made anything that flies/glides thru the atmosphere?

The tail arrangement and cranked wing looks sophisticated.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 21 May 2016 22:36

nits wrote:I used a tool (https://www.freemaptools.com/radius-around-point.htm) and adjusted the plotter to 400Km Radius. See below image where i have tried to randomly used a location which covers all our east and west border + Delhi and by 4 S-400 with 400 Km radius we can cover both fronts with 1 for spare or for Andamans

Ofcourse i am not a expert and it and may not be full proof with flaws which i am not technically fit to examine but IMHO 5 are good numbers to start with and meet our minimum requirements

I am just wondering, as to why are we presuming that Launchers will be clustered around the main Radar just a short distance away? India is developing robust C3/C4 Battle information systems and a couple of launchers can be deployed, say 100 km away from the main Radar, Right on Indo-Pak border. This is will also give these launchers ability to fire at targets deep in enemy territory and also at Ballistic Missiles heading for Indian Cities from side and or from behind.

While Imports can kill the indigenous SAM production but I am hoping that:-

After 9 squadrons of Spyder, DRDO QRSAM will take over future orders.

After 9 squadrons of Barak-8, DRDO Akash-2 will take over.

After 5 S-400 Units, future Orders will go to AAD, PDA, PD-1, PD-2

Even Barak-1,2 in Navy Can be superseded by DRDO QRSAM, AAD