Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Gagan
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gagan » 21 May 2016 23:36

Pakistani missiles need to be intercepted at the boost phase onlee. They are pretty close to the border.

Iron dome and Akash can take out the Nasr, babur, raad nonsense..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 22 May 2016 03:02

Why Iron dome? QRSAM and Akash-2 should suffice? LRSAM and S-400 should render paf grounded.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2016 06:16

We know that RCI has already tested a 1000 kg glide bomb. It has now issued a tender for airframe assembly of yet another glide bomb. This one is interesting. The airframe has a square cross section (20cm X 20cm), and a length of 1.86 mtrs. Therefore, this glide bomb is unlikely to weigh over 150 kgs. The folded wings have a total wingspan of about 1.4mtrs.

They are getting about 10 of these airframes made within 5 months of issue of materials from RCI. So expect test flights in about an years time.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Pratyush » 22 May 2016 13:20

The concept looks like a spice 250 class weapon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2016 13:52

Is a seeker or a FRP or optical radome mentioned?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 22 May 2016 16:47

indranilroy wrote:We know that RCI has already tested a 1000 kg glide bomb. It has now issued a tender for airframe assembly of yet another glide bomb. This one is interesting. The airframe has a square cross section (20cm X 20cm), and a length of 1.86 mtrs. Therefore, this glide bomb is unlikely to weigh over 150 kgs. The folded wings have a total wingspan of about 1.4mtrs.

They are getting about 10 of these airframes made within 5 months of issue of materials from RCI. So expect test flights in about an years time.

Image


I would assume 30km max range without wings too.

Right size for an anti-tank munition. Small size means the designers are thinking of multi-rack carriage, internal weapon bays, and multi-target on single pass. Also, it is small enough that medium helicopters should be able to carry--maybe could be used for anti-shipping roles too.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2016 19:13

The nose looks like this.

Image

Image

Right now, it will be made of an aluminium alloy called HF-15. I am pretty sure that later on it will changed to radome/optically-transparent material.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 22 May 2016 19:29

Round nose makes sense only if the ultimate aim is to put in IIR sensors, otherwise pointy nose would have been better. I think we are developing all types of missiles, the only categories seem to be missing are:-

AAM IIR WVR

KH25,29,38 type mid weight mid range supersonic Air to Ground missile

Manpads, VSHORADS

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2016 19:32

Pratyush wrote:The concept looks like a spice 250 class weapon.

You are right. Its shape is near identical to the Spice 250

srai wrote:Right size for an anti-tank munition. Small size means the designers are thinking of multi-rack carriage, internal weapon bays, and multi-target on single pass. Also, it is small enough that medium helicopters should be able to carry--maybe could be used for anti-shipping roles too.

Rafael designed a smart rack to carry 4 Spice-250 on a single pylon.
Image
I can imagine our Tejas configured in the same way.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 22 May 2016 19:40

It is unpowered right?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 22 May 2016 20:56

Yes. And that's why I don't think it is intended for use from attack helis.

However, RCI is developing the 275 kgf turbojet engine (with NAL?) for a UCAV.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby dinesha » 23 May 2016 11:54

Interceptor missile mission a ‘failure’ - The interceptor never took off
T. S. SUBRAMANIAN
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 634085.ece
The interceptor never took off to intercept incoming “enemy” missile, say sources

The interceptor missile mission, which took place on May 15, was a failure despite claims of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to the contrary. The interceptor never took off to intercept the incoming “enemy” missile which merely fell into the Bay of Bengal, informed sources said.

An agency report on May 16 said a modified Prithvi missile was launched on May 15 from a naval ship in the Bay of Bengal and it mimicked the trajectory of a missile coming from an enemy country.

‘Never took off’
Informed sources, however, said the interceptor missile never took off from the island; so no interception took place at all. “Post-flight analysis is going on. We do not know whether there was problem in detecting the missile, whether radars tracked it and communicated it to the interceptor,” said the sources.

The DRDO developed both the Prithvi missile and the interceptor.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 23 May 2016 13:13

Wasn't that an electronic simulated intercept

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 23 May 2016 13:16

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 393362.cms

SAAW tested successfully.
Weight: 125-150 Kilos
Range: 80-100 Km.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29378 » 23 May 2016 13:26

India has actually taken a lead in the development and testing of its 'First Fully Indigenised' Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW). Highly placed sources in the Union ministry of defence shared exclusively that the SAAW was successfully test launched from a Jaguar aircraft towards the fag end of first quarter of May by the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) in Bangalore.

Official sources revealed that the team comprising officials from the Indian Air Force and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had come to Jaisalmer for testing SAAW twice in the beginning of this month but had to abort the mission due to technical reasons. SAAW has been developed by DRDO for the IAF.

It is to be mentioned that with the development of this weapon, India has reached a platform higher than any other country since even the United States of America, the only other country in the process of developing these kind of precision-guided glide bombs has failed to successfully test the same.

These Small Diameter Bombs (SDB) with a weight of 110 kgs being developed by US were though scheduled to enter production about two years back, could not be kicked off despite two different companies being entrusted with the development in two different phases.


Israel being yet another country as per the sources, which intends to sell these smart bombs and is already into marketing the same, interestingly is also yet to taste success in these weapons.

As per the officials, the test fire from Jaguar in Bangalore has been successful and was a single weapon trial.

The same shall now again be tested in Jaisalmer before being integrated with Su-30 aircraft for multiple weapon trials. It is to be mentioned that the development and trial of SAAW being kept under wraps finds a budget allocation to the tune of Rs 56.58 crores in the category of new projects in a written note submitted by the Union ministry of defence to the standing committee on defence (2014-2015).

SAAW finds a mention in this report on 'Demands for Grants of the Ministry of Defence for the year 2014-15 on Ordnance Factories and Defence Research and Development Organisation (Demand No. 25 & 26)' under the chairmanship of Maj Gen B C Khanduri (Retd.)

SAAW is also mentioned in the 'Current Programs' of the Mission and Combat System R&D Centre (MCSRDC) on the official website of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). MCSRDC is the R& D Center of HAL, established in November 2008 to design and develop Integrated Avionics Systems for Fixed and Rotary wing aircraft. The HAL site mentions of SAAW in current programs as 'Trial mod implantation of Smart Anti airfield Weapon (SAAW) on Jaguar DARIN-II aircraft.'

Officials shared that this SAAW weighs around 125-150 kgs and has a strike distance of 80-100 kms.

"It is a long-range, precision guided Air to Surface weapon and can be launched from Jaguar and Su-30 aircraft. In future, the same can be integrated to the French Rafale aircraft being imported by the IAF," said the official.

This Smart Anti-Air Field Weapon will lend a supreme power to IAF since the high explosive warhead is capable destroying even the steel reinforced concrete runways and bunkers etc of enemy with deep penetration capabilities making it impossible for the enemy aircraft to even take off while being controlled from the cockpit.

Well, there are many firsts to Smart Anti Airfield weapon. Apart from being touted as the first 'in the world', the smart bomb is indeed the first hundred per cent 'Made in India' weapon. "All the prestigious missile and weapon systems etc always had imported components and even involved Transfer of Technology in many products, but only in SAAW, India can brag of complete indigenized production starting from the material to the technology as well as all the systems and the sub-systems," said the official adding that the user agency (IAF) is delighted with the success of SAAW from Jaguar while all its subsystems, aerodynamics etc have been successfully tested. Trials for wing functioning of SAAW were also conducted about eight months back in Rail Track Rocket Sled (RTRS) facility at Terminal Ballistics Research Laboratory (TBRL) at Ramgarh in Haryana as per the officials.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/India ... ested-5333


SDB analog has been tested. The claims of the SDB not being in service sound incorrect though. I assume the guidance is using IRNSS/GPS/GLONASS?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 23 May 2016 13:31

Can we sell it both to Russia and the US..just for the heck of it

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kersi D » 23 May 2016 13:46

kit wrote:Can we sell it both to Russia and the US..just for the heck of it


Russians will defintely buy them. Then they wills end Natasha+suitcase to sell it back to us.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 23 May 2016 17:52

Putting two and two together 8)

Thakur_B wrote:India's first fully indigenized anti-airfield weapon tested

SAAW tested successfully.
Weight: 125-150 Kilos
Range: 80-100 Km.


indranilroy wrote:We know that RCI has already tested a 1000 kg glide bomb. It has now issued a tender for airframe assembly of yet another glide bomb. This one is interesting. The airframe has a square cross section (20cm X 20cm), and a length of 1.86 mtrs. Therefore, this glide bomb is unlikely to weigh over 150 kgs. The folded wings have a total wingspan of about 1.4mtrs.

They are getting about 10 of these airframes made within 5 months of issue of materials from RCI. So expect test flights in about an years time.

Image


indranilroy wrote:The nose looks like this.

Image

Image

Right now, it will be made of an aluminium alloy called HF-15. I am pretty sure that later on it will changed to radome/optically-transparent material.


Looks like there are few more variants in the works.

DRDO: A Glimpse
...
GPS/INS Guidance and Control Kit and Glide Fin Kit for 450 kg HSLD Bomb
Ground mechanical adaptation trials of the kit with Jaguar Darin-II were conducted successfully.
Using avionics and seeker for PG kit for 450 kg High Speed Low Drag (HSLD) aircraft bomb, captive
trials have been successfully completed at ITR. The seeker locked-on and tracked the target during the
captive flight.

New Family of Munitions
Under this project, seven types of munitions have been designed and developed by DRDO, viz.,
Nipun, Vibhav, Vishal, Parth, Prachand, Ulka and Abha to improve the existing munitions and enhance
its performance. User-assisted technical trials (UATT) for NIPUN have been successfully completed.
Trials with 15 sets of prototypes of Vibhav have been successfully completed. Explosive train trials with
actual fuze components of Vibhav have been successfully completed.
...


MOD Annual Report 2016
...
New Family of Munitions: Six types of
munitions are being designed and developed
by DRDO viz. Nipun, Vibhav, Vishal, Parth,
Prachand and Ulka to improve the existing
munitions and enhance its performance. User
Assisted Technical Trials (UATT) of Soft Target
Blast Munition ‘NIPUN’
has been completed
and the system has been offered for User
trials. Lethality trials with new main body
assembly and desert trials of Anti-Tank Point
Attack Munition ‘VIBHAV’
have been carried
out. Dynamic trials with BMP/ AFV, explosive
train trials and desert trials of Anti-Tank Bar
Munition ‘VISHAL’
have been conducted
successfully. Moulding trials of Jumping
Fragmentation Munition ‘ULKA’
is under
progress. User demo trials of Directional
Fragmentation Module ‘PARTH’
have been
completed and field trials are in progress.
...


Seeking the future: An interview with Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Director Research Centre Imarat
...
Image

SauravJha: What is the MMW seeker meant for?

Satheesh Reddy: It is meant for PGMs and for the next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM).

SauravJha: PGMs of the kind?

Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example.
...


Image
Image


Prithvi Warheads
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 23 May 2016 21:11

Thakur_B, great find! I don't think I had read about SAAW before. These certainly look related. Basically it is India's Spice-250 equivalent.

The guidance kits for the heavier bombs are different. Rafael also came to the same conclusion. For these small bombs, one has to go for a dedicated airframe instead of strap-on kits. I don't know if these can form the warheads of Prithvi. My concern is when ejected from the mother missile, these will be travelling at supersonic speeds. However, the fuselage and wings on this are definitely meant for subsonic flight. So how is this thing slowed down, just drag?

Now, need some more clarity on the UCAV RCI is building eith its 2.75 kN engine

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 May 2016 22:11

Might not exactly be Spice-250 equivalent. Spice, with all its bells & whistles (IIR/EO/GPS multi-seeker options) seem more suited for high value, mobile targets, which also makes it expensive.

Ours seem to be for static targets, where IRNSS should be enough. Cheap, precise-enough & large standoff range.

Spice-equivalents might be in the works at RCI though (given maturity in MMW, IIT and Helina-man-in-the-loop seekers)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 24 May 2016 04:04

Chinmay wrote:
India has actually taken a lead in the development and testing of its 'First Fully Indigenised' Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW). Highly placed sources in the Union ministry of defence shared exclusively that the SAAW was successfully test launched from a Jaguar aircraft towards the fag end of first quarter of May by the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) in Bangalore.

Official sources revealed that the team comprising officials from the Indian Air Force and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) had come to Jaisalmer for testing SAAW twice in the beginning of this month but had to abort the mission due to technical reasons. SAAW has been developed by DRDO for the IAF.

It is to be mentioned that with the development of this weapon, India has reached a platform higher than any other country since even the United States of America, the only other country in the process of developing these kind of precision-guided glide bombs has failed to successfully test the same.

These Small Diameter Bombs (SDB) with a weight of 110 kgs being developed by US were though scheduled to enter production about two years back, could not be kicked off despite two different companies being entrusted with the development in two different phases.


Israel being yet another country as per the sources, which intends to sell these smart bombs and is already into marketing the same, interestingly is also yet to taste success in these weapons.


http://www.defencenews.in/article/India ... ested-5333


SDB analog has been tested. The claims of the SDB not being in service sound incorrect though. I assume the guidance is using IRNSS/GPS/GLONASS?


They are actually mentioning SDB-II, not SDB-I. Two companies mentioned are Boeing and Raytheon and there were failures during testing phase.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ii-413470/
“That 28-launch programme will take us probably at least nine months, so we’re looking at third quarter of 2016 before operational testing will begin,” says SDB II program director Jim Sweetman in an interview with Flightglobal.


So per sources, SPICE (SDB)-250 which was offered to Indian forces is yet to taste success in bagging any contract.

Albeit, it is very interesting to note that they are comparing SAAW to SDB-II and SPICE variety. SDB-II and SPICE are noted for attacking moving targets. Or, it could be a family of such small diameter glide weapon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 24 May 2016 06:00

indranilroy wrote:Thakur_B, great find! I don't think I had read about SAAW before. These certainly look related. Basically it is India's Spice-250 equivalent.


I don't think SAAW and the Small Desi Bomb are related anyhow. An anti airfield weapon would require sub munitions to take out runways and hangars, the Small Desi Bomb seen above seems like a monolith warhead and body, unless they have adopted the Matra Durandal approach with SAAW. I think SAAW, considering it's weight and range, is more like a smaller unpowered MBDA Apache. I would expect the SAAW to have GPS/INS guidance but no seeker, as the airfields don't move.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 24 May 2016 06:49

^^^

Probably SAAW is an anti-runway munition like Matra Durandal ... but with a stand-off range when delivered from an aircraft (or delivered from inside a warhead like shown on Prithvi). It would need a booster at the end to penetrate concrete runways to certain depth. Maybe the Prithvi version wouldn't need a booster since the terminal velocity would already be supersonic.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Other types of warheads, like fragmentation, incendiary, bomblets, penetration, etc, would better suit general purpose un-powered Small Desi Bomb (SDB) either with MMW/IIR seekers or not. It doesn't need to be a specialized weapon like SAAW.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 24 May 2016 07:10

Thakur_B wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Thakur_B, great find! I don't think I had read about SAAW before. These certainly look related. Basically it is India's Spice-250 equivalent.


I don't think SAAW and the Small Desi Bomb are related anyhow. An anti airfield weapon would require sub munitions to take out runways and hangars, the Small Desi Bomb seen above seems like a monolith warhead and body, unless they have adopted the Matra Durandal approach with SAAW. I think SAAW, considering it's weight and range, is more like a smaller unpowered MBDA Apache. I would expect the SAAW to have GPS/INS guidance but no seeker, as the airfields don't move.

I recall reading somewhere about a DRDO weapon that was developed but not used or did not work or was not accepted a long time ago - maybe around the 1971 war. It was basically a bomb that dropped a whole lot of tyre ripping spikes on a runway along with fast setting glue that fused the spikes to the runway surface. I have never read about such a weapon elsewhere.

That aside runways are hard to take out with small weapons - and need stuff that will dig in and rip out the tarmac - or else repairs will be done soon

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2016 19:17

Just get the darn thing into service MOD before bragging it is 10x the SDB, and having it stuck in endless trials.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2016 19:31

With a seeker it should be able to take out moving targets too.

The new family of munitions is not this one. I had posted on it before. More like a replacement of existing munitions with more advanced versions.

This is however probably a version of ASB with a seeker & nav kit, wing kit included.

>80-100 km range
>penetration capability (hence probably fits onto HSLD)
>110kg - matches Satheesh Reddy's statement & Srais pic of how they can be "stacked" in Prithvi & many can be carried on Su-30

What a wait for a desi PGM. May it be inducted in the thousands and get the job done with trials conducted periodically for AF confidence (as versus Arjun add this, add that endless trials).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 24 May 2016 19:46

Indian Enterprises Battle Over Missile System Ownership
NEW DELHI — A fierce battle has erupted between two state enterprises over ownership of medium- and long-range surface-to-air missile systems that India is developing jointly with Israel.

State enterprises Bharat Dynamics Ltd. (BDL) and Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) each want to be the sole lead integrator, but the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) is finding it difficult to pacify the competition, according to a senior defense production official with the ministry, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

State-owed Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is undertaking the joint development of two missiles — the long-range surface-to-air missile (LRSAM) and the medium-range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) projects with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael.

For the two missiles programs, IAI and Rafael are the sole design authority and DRDO is only a buyer, according to a senior executive of one of the primary suppliers for the two projects.

"Israel has not given any technology transfer of these two missiles, and the intellectual property rights of the missiles are with IAI and Rafael," he said.


The Indian Navy will procure 12 LRSAM systems at a cost of more than $2 billion, while the Indian Air Force will buy MRSAM systems including 450 missiles and 18 firing units at a cost of $2 billion. The Indian Army will purchase the land version of MRSAM, which will include 14 firing units and an unspecified number of missiles at a cost of $1 billion. With an intercept range of 70 kilometers, the naval version is called LRSAM, while the MRSAM is the Army and Air Force version.

Both missile programs, however, are facing delays — LRSAM was supposed to be inducted in the Indian Navy in 2012 while the MRSAM for the Indian Air Force met a two-year delay, the MoD official said.

"We will conducts one test of MRSAM and two tests of LRSAM in Israel within the next three months; thereafter, two tests of each system will be conducted in India later this year," said an IAI executive, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Each system will comprise one launcher, which will carry eight missiles, a command-and-control system, and a tracking radar, a DRDO scientist said.

"BDL has already invested over $100 million to establish a production facility for both MRSAM and LRSAM in Hyderabad, and it will be operational in the next two years," a BDL official said.

The new production facility will produce 100 missiles each year, he said.

However, one BEL executive, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that BEL will be the lead inheritor for both systems and that the company has teamed with Elta of Israel to license and produce MFSTAR tracking radar in India.


According to an Indian Navy official "The three [defense] services are yet to conduct final user trials. Only then we can access how capable and proven are these systems."

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 24 May 2016 19:51

Anti-runway munition can delay the air traffic to a certain extent, but even then its a hit or miss. Airbases are vast and damage is visually quantifiable to take corrective measure.

Instead why not litter the runway with un-exploded mines which can dig into the runway (easier said then done I guess). But this will significantly slowdown the recovery operation probably by days if not by hours. Also, in absence of any visible damage people cannot direct fighters to take alternate route until complete airfield is sanitized.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2016 20:42

Even before seeing the link I could guess it was that famous Vivek of Defense News making much ado over nothing.

Even for Akash, BEL is the lead integrator for IAF and BDL for Army. And BEL supplies the radars for both programs.

And this guy is busy trying to create a controversy.

"BEL will be inheritor".. he couldn't even spell integrator.

I wonder sometimes if these articles are generated under the influence of some strong relaxants, so to speak.


Austin wrote:Indian Enterprises Battle Over Missile System Ownership
NEW DELHI — A fierce battle has erupted between two state enterprises over ownership of medium- and long-range surface-to-air missile systems that India is developing jointly with Israel.

State enterprises Bharat Dynamics Ltd. (BDL) and Bharat Electronics Ltd. (BEL) each want to be the sole lead integrator, but the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) is finding it difficult to pacify the competition, according to a senior defense production official with the ministry, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

State-owed Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) is undertaking the joint development of two missiles — the long-range surface-to-air missile (LRSAM) and the medium-range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) projects with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Rafael.

For the two missiles programs, IAI and Rafael are the sole design authority and DRDO is only a buyer, according to a senior executive of one of the primary suppliers for the two projects.

"Israel has not given any technology transfer of these two missiles, and the intellectual property rights of the missiles are with IAI and Rafael," he said.


The Indian Navy will procure 12 LRSAM systems at a cost of more than $2 billion, while the Indian Air Force will buy MRSAM systems including 450 missiles and 18 firing units at a cost of $2 billion. The Indian Army will purchase the land version of MRSAM, which will include 14 firing units and an unspecified number of missiles at a cost of $1 billion. With an intercept range of 70 kilometers, the naval version is called LRSAM, while the MRSAM is the Army and Air Force version.

Both missile programs, however, are facing delays — LRSAM was supposed to be inducted in the Indian Navy in 2012 while the MRSAM for the Indian Air Force met a two-year delay, the MoD official said.

"We will conducts one test of MRSAM and two tests of LRSAM in Israel within the next three months; thereafter, two tests of each system will be conducted in India later this year," said an IAI executive, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Each system will comprise one launcher, which will carry eight missiles, a command-and-control system, and a tracking radar, a DRDO scientist said.

"BDL has already invested over $100 million to establish a production facility for both MRSAM and LRSAM in Hyderabad, and it will be operational in the next two years," a BDL official said.

The new production facility will produce 100 missiles each year, he said.

However, one BEL executive, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that BEL will be the lead inheritor for both systems and that the company has teamed with Elta of Israel to license and produce MFSTAR tracking radar in India.


According to an Indian Navy official "The three [defense] services are yet to conduct final user trials. Only then we can access how capable and proven are these systems."

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 May 2016 20:45

Sid wrote:Anti-runway munition can delay the air traffic to a certain extent, but even then its a hit or miss. Airbases are vast and damage is visually quantifiable to take corrective measure.

Instead why not litter the runway with un-exploded mines which can dig into the runway (easier said then done I guess). But this will significantly slowdown the recovery operation probably by days if not by hours. Also, in absence of any visible damage people cannot direct fighters to take alternate route until complete airfield is sanitized.


Its actually anti-airfield munition.

That means more than just the runway.

Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW).

All structures on the airbase basically.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 24 May 2016 21:14

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 393362.cms

Regarding how information is littered in this news item, here are some of the take-away about SAAW.

a.
Well, there are many firsts to Smart Anti Airfield weapon. Apart from being touted as the first 'in the world'


Indeed, by comparing this SAAW to SDB-II and SPICE-250 and saying as "first in the world", SAAW seems to be more than just runway denial weapon.


b.
This Smart Anti-Air Field Weapon will lend a supreme power to IAF since the high explosive warhead is capable destroying even the steel reinforced concrete runways and bunkers etc of enemy with deep penetration capabilities making it impossible for the enemy aircraft to even take off while being controlled from the cockpit


Further, this line confirms that SAAW posses capabilities as that of SDB-II/SPICE-250.

Boeing claims that their SDB ( i.e. SDB-I) can do anti-runway, anti-airfield, DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses), penetrate hardened aircraft shelters among others.

OTOH, SDB-II can handle mobile targets, SAM sites and others. But the anti-runway and deep penetration is left to SDB-I.

By comparison, SAAW can do the role of both SDB-I and SDB-II. If true, justifying the claim "first in the world". Indeed SAAW is heavier than SDB.


c.
"It is a long-range, precision guided Air to Surface weapon and can be launched from Jaguar and Su-30 aircraft. In future, the same can be integrated to the French Rafale aircraft being imported by the IAF," said the official.


Jaguar, Su-30 and Rafale further confirms the intended role of this weapon.

From memory, B-52 can carry 30 SDB in internal weapon bay, while single Su-30 can carry such load.

And, primary role of Rafale is in DEAD/SEAD missions and heavily protected sites.

-------------------------

As per previous Chief, DRDO will close the gap in sensor tech to global stds by 2022. But latest statements from SA to RM, Reddy garu states that it will be done by 2018/19. If the above news is true without error on facts, we are ultimately facing the prospectus of achieving that by such earlier date.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sum » 25 May 2016 04:10

For the two missiles programs, IAI and Rafael are the sole design authority and DRDO is only a buyer, according to a senior executive of one of the primary suppliers for the two projects.

"Israel has not given any technology transfer of these two missiles, and the intellectual property rights of the missiles are with IAI and Rafael," he said.

So Gyan-ji was right about this "JV" and its real status! :shock:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kakkaji » 25 May 2016 04:48

Israeli Spyder system emerges as frontrunner for Indian Army's air defence needs

NEW DELHI: The Israeli Spyder system has emerged as the frontrunner for an Army requirement for a fast reaction air defence cover against enemy aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles. The Army's short-range surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) programme, which was started in 2011, is nearing final selection that will lead to a contract valued at over Rs 18,000 crore.

Sources have told ET that the Spyder system — manufactured by Rafael Advanced Systems — is the frontrunner as its competitors from Sweden and Russia were not able to perform during technical trials carried out by the Indian Army that were concluded last year.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 25 May 2016 06:18

Kakkaji wrote:Israeli Spyder system emerges as frontrunner for Indian Army's air defence needs

NEW DELHI: The Israeli Spyder system has emerged as the frontrunner for an Army requirement for a fast reaction air defence cover against enemy aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles. The Army's short-range surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) programme, which was started in 2011, is nearing final selection that will lead to a contract valued at over Rs 18,000 crore.

Sources have told ET that the Spyder system — manufactured by Rafael Advanced Systems — is the frontrunner as its competitors from Sweden and Russia were not able to perform during technical trials carried out by the Indian Army that were concluded last year.

Nice. Sources have told the ET this

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 25 May 2016 07:23

IIR seeker if present, permits a programmable image of libraries like homing in on hardened shelters, control tower, fuel depot, munitions bunkers, runway and taxiway junction points...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 25 May 2016 10:11

So the LRSAM is nothing like the BMos JV.Why must such a fraud be perpetrated? The deal was done before the NDA-2 took office.It must pursue the deal to see if there was any deliberate neglect of Indian interests.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 25 May 2016 14:06

[color=#40BF00][/color]
Further, this line confirms that SAAW posses capabilities as that of SDB-II/SPICE-250.

Boeing claims that their SDB ( i.e. SDB-I) can do anti-runway, anti-airfield, DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses), penetrate hardened aircraft shelters among others.

OTOH, SDB-II can handle mobile targets, SAM sites and others. But the anti-runway and deep penetration is left to SDB-I.

By comparison, SAAW can do the role of both SDB-I and SDB-II. If true, justifying the claim "first in the world". Indeed SAAW is heavier than SDB.


SDBI and II requirements and capabilities (tri-mode seeker vs just GPS/INS) were kept separate due to cost that dictated mission. Multiple SDBI's can be purchased for the price of one SDB II which defines its target set since the SDBI is essentially a smaller quad packed 'JDAM" that has demonstrated some very impressive hard target penetration capability during DT and IOTE. SDBII is for the type of missions where you don't need large fire power but there is a complex target set (mobile targets, IADS installation etc that can justify a multi-mode seeker with a higher overall weapon cost). There is also a HOJ version of the SDB I. Then there were also delivery deadlines that defined capability. SDBI was to complete delivery to the US programs (aprox. 24,000 weapons) before the first SDB II production batch contract was awarded (which it did) so the dev. and fielding timeline also played a role in what sort of capability went into the design.

The reason to keep the requirements separate (despite efforts form Lockheed and Raytheon to merge requirements) was to build up inventory and have an affordable weapon, mass produced in the 2000's. Boeing is likely to produce close to 50,000 SDB I's by the time they shut shop (vs an original requirement of 22-24,000 (that was met by around the turn of the decade) the US will probably end up acquiring > 30,000 with the remaining going to FMS).

From memory, B-52 can carry 30 SDB in internal weapon bay, while single Su-30 can carry such load


Overall the buff can be configured to carry over 100 SDB's, and the number is around 140 for the B-1.

The preferred load out with the heavy SDB presence is the F-15E (first platform to be cleared for it with a hypothetical max load being around 36 weapons) and SDBI combination that they can use for airfield stuff.

Given the missions in discussion (anti-airfield) the SDBI scope as defined in the program is:

A key requirement for the SDB was that it be able to destroy a set of 14 typical hard and soft targets including command-control and communications bunkers; air-defence assets; petroleum, oil and lubricant sites; airfield targets; infrastructure targets; missiles; artillery; and anti-aircraft artillery.



https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... e46f68.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/ ... _sdb01.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 26 May 2016 03:45

brar_w wrote:SDBI and II requirements and capabilities (tri-mode seeker vs just GPS/INS) were kept separate due to cost that dictated mission. Multiple SDBI's can be purchased for the price of one SDB II which defines its target set since the SDBI is essentially a smaller quad packed 'JDAM" that has demonstrated some very impressive hard target penetration capability during DT and IOTE.


You are comparing the cost of a product (SDB-I) that has a production run of several thousand units to the product(SDB-II) that is in low rate production.

SDB-I price listed as $40,000 USD.
SDB-II latest figure is $115,000 USD.

Plus, SDB-II has Navy as additional customer.

The figure that was quoted is 24,000 as USAF requirement. 12,000 met by SDB-I and remaining 12,000 to be from SDB-II. Further 5000 units of SDB-II for USN.

SDB-I :12,000.
SDB-II:12,000 + 5,000.

Boeing says completed more than 17,000 units of SDB. (That includes baseline SDB, SDB variety and FMS sales)


brar_w wrote:Then there were also delivery deadlines that defined capability. SDBI was to complete delivery to the US programs (aprox. 24,000 weapons) before the first SDB II production batch contract was awarded (which it did) so the dev. and fielding timeline also played a role in what sort of capability went into the design.

The reason to keep the requirements separate (despite efforts form Lockheed and Raytheon to merge requirements) was to build up inventory and have an affordable weapon, mass produced in the 2000's. Boeing is likely to produce close to 50,000 SDB I's by the time they shut shop (vs an original requirement of 22-24,000 (that was met by around the turn of the decade) the US will probably end up acquiring > 30,000 with the remaining going to FMS).

Well it can be said this way, afterall these are requirements of US.

But point is , these two products, SDB-I and SDB-II offer different set of capabilities. And if there is a product that combines the capabilities of these two is going to be much more capable. Judging by what is said about Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon so far, combines the smartness of SDB-II and the deep penetrating capabilities of SDB-I.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 26 May 2016 04:06

SDB-I
Image


SDB-II
Image


SAAW would probably be more like SDB-1 without seeker while the other SDesiB would be more like SDB-II with a seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 26 May 2016 14:08

Kanson wrote:
brar_w wrote:SDBI and II requirements and capabilities (tri-mode seeker vs just GPS/INS) were kept separate due to cost that dictated mission. Multiple SDBI's can be purchased for the price of one SDB II which defines its target set since the SDBI is essentially a smaller quad packed 'JDAM" that has demonstrated some very impressive hard target penetration capability during DT and IOTE.


You are comparing the cost of a product (SDB-I) that has a production run of several thousand units to the product(SDB-II) that is in low rate production.

SDB-I price listed as $40,000 USD.
SDB-II latest figure is $115,000 USD.

Plus, SDB-II has Navy as additional customer.

The figure that was quoted is 24,000 as USAF requirement. 12,000 met by SDB-I and remaining 12,000 to be from SDB-II. Further 5000 units of SDB-II for USN.

SDB-I :12,000.
SDB-II:12,000 + 5,000.

Boeing says completed more than 17,000 units of SDB. (That includes baseline SDB, SDB variety and FMS sales)


brar_w wrote:Then there were also delivery deadlines that defined capability. SDBI was to complete delivery to the US programs (aprox. 24,000 weapons) before the first SDB II production batch contract was awarded (which it did) so the dev. and fielding timeline also played a role in what sort of capability went into the design.

The reason to keep the requirements separate (despite efforts form Lockheed and Raytheon to merge requirements) was to build up inventory and have an affordable weapon, mass produced in the 2000's. Boeing is likely to produce close to 50,000 SDB I's by the time they shut shop (vs an original requirement of 22-24,000 (that was met by around the turn of the decade) the US will probably end up acquiring > 30,000 with the remaining going to FMS).

Well it can be said this way, afterall these are requirements of US.

But point is , these two products, SDB-I and SDB-II offer different set of capabilities. And if there is a product that combines the capabilities of these two is going to be much more capable. Judging by what is said about Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon so far, combines the smartness of SDB-II and the deep penetrating capabilities of SDB-I.


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