Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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shiv
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 04 Jun 2016 19:55

Supratik wrote:All international relations between countries or blocks are transactional.

True - but the transactions are between the two nations/blocs and not third party nations/blocs.

Arming or not arming Vietnam based on China's arming or not arming Pakistan means that we are looking at Vietnam as our tool to manipulate China and gives an opening for China to manipulate us by using its tool Pakistan. China could kill our chance of export of missiles simply by postponing some arms supply to Pakistan. If Vietnam fulfills its need from some other nation, China could go right back to supplying Pakistan. And we lose our chance.

Our transactions with any state must not be controllable by any other state.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 04 Jun 2016 20:05

Thats a good point.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 04 Jun 2016 21:35

Cosmo_R wrote:
Austin wrote:Strategic Community happy that Prakash clears Nicobar Missile testing range

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/glasshouse ... 82904.html


Interesting tidbit :"Two nuclear submarines carried out their first critical tests on the island recently-the SSBN Arihant fired a K-4 ballistic missile


Excellent. So Arihant and Chakra have fired K4 and Klub respectively. The test range is operational and the Arihant has been all over the Bay of Bengal.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28108 » 04 Jun 2016 22:21

Was the recent Notam for K4 including that area ?

JE Menon
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JE Menon » 04 Jun 2016 23:48

Supratik wrote:Wouldn't it have been a better idea to wait and see whether the Chinese supply the CX-1 to Pakistan before supplying Brahmos to Vietman and use it as a sort of threat?


Can't believe I'm seeing this on BRF. They have supplied nukes to Pakistan already!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 04 Jun 2016 23:56

Nukes, fighters and god knows what else.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby malushahi » 05 Jun 2016 00:05

JE Menon wrote:
Supratik wrote:Wouldn't it have been a better idea to wait and see whether the Chinese supply the CX-1 to Pakistan before supplying Brahmos to Vietman and use it as a sort of threat?


Can't believe I'm seeing this on BRF. They have supplied nukes to Pakistan already!!!


why disbelief? vibrant democracy onlee saar.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 05 Jun 2016 00:20

Do it already. The Japanese and Koreans are only a screw driver turn away from nukes. No reason Vietnam and Philippines cannot have BM's.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cosmo_R » 05 Jun 2016 02:38

Re Vietnam Brahmos. Consideration: after we are in the NSG and MTCR. Reason is not PRC but the the bit players like Mexico and Switzerland (Modi is going there) who are knee jerk non prol.

JMT

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby PratikDas » 05 Jun 2016 02:46

We're not getting through MTCR any time soon. We should export Brahmos now. Brahmos doesn't violate MTCR in the first place. MTCR will come around when they realize the change a 300 km Brahmos will imply in the Indo-Pacific. Having a mature conversation with India in MTCR will then become more important than humiliating it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sanjaykumar » 05 Jun 2016 04:43

There is really no incentive to get India in. It is scrupulous about MTCR and NPT adherence.
I agree the applications need to be incentivised.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 05 Jun 2016 10:14

Karan M wrote:I'd oppose selling Akash. Its operational characteristics are only known to India at present. We should sell Pinaka, Prahaar, and small arms.


I'm not sure but I do believe that some of the critical operational characteristics of Brahmos would be known only to India/Russia at this point.
The larger point is that your concern is why we need to create export versions.
Like Brahmos is a big disruptor in the balance of power in that region, SAMs and radars matter too

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 05 Jun 2016 13:48

Srin, exactly, apart from positive PR and some funds, my concern is do we gain (diplo issues apart) of making our key inhouse weapons public. DRDO (IMHO) will be challenged trying to create multiple variants of its systems sanitized to different standards. Anyway, if the Philippines news is true, then the horse has left the stable...so my concerns are moot, as the decision is made and will be worked on.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28442 » 05 Jun 2016 16:27

Karan M wrote:Srin, exactly, apart from positive PR and some funds, my concern is do we gain (diplo issues apart) of making our key inhouse weapons public. DRDO (IMHO) will be challenged trying to create multiple variants of its systems sanitized to different standards. Anyway, if the Philippines news is true, then the horse has left the stable...so my concerns are moot, as the decision is made and will be worked on.


DRDO should have already worked on it, if this regime does not export then i wonder if any regime can.
everything is conducive for export right now, hopefully DRDO can step up as well

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sivab » 05 Jun 2016 17:50

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... s?from=mdr

India likely to enter missile technology control regime this week

India is likely to enter the missile technology control ( MTCR ) regime this week, a move that will boost the country's efforts to purchase Predator drones from the US and export its high-tech missiles to friendly nations.

An announcement in this regard is anticipated as early as this week, possibly during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to the US at the invitation of US President Barack Obama , sources tracking the development told PTI.

The major breakthrough comes days after India announced that it is subscribing to 'The Hague Code of Conduct' against Ballistic Missile Proliferation, which is considered to be complementary to the missile technology control regime (MTCR).

The Obama administration has strongly backed India's membership into MTCR and three other export control regime -- Australia Group, Nuclear Suppliers Group and the Wassenaar Arrangement.

Since 2008 India has been one of the five countries that are Unilateral Adherents to MTCR.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 05 Jun 2016 18:08

SSharma wrote:
Karan M wrote:Srin, exactly, apart from positive PR and some funds, my concern is do we gain (diplo issues apart) of making our key inhouse weapons public. DRDO (IMHO) will be challenged trying to create multiple variants of its systems sanitized to different standards. Anyway, if the Philippines news is true, then the horse has left the stable...so my concerns are moot, as the decision is made and will be worked on.


DRDO should have already worked on it, if this regime does not export then i wonder if any regime can.
everything is conducive for export right now, hopefully DRDO can step up as well


DRDO has been struggling to fund and manage existing programs. IMHO, creating export versions was not on their aims. Hopefully this GOI will help them succeed there. But there is a serious mess with the SA to RM and DRDO head posts being at cross purposes per multiple reports.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 06 Jun 2016 06:58

^^In any case export was out of the question because Indian laws did not encourage export until the Modi govt changed the policy.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby PratikDas » 06 Jun 2016 08:14

Does signing on to The Hague Code of Conduct for ballistic missile non-proliferation mean the domestic plan is frozen? Is the Agni-6 and Surya dead?
---------
Answering my own question:
http://scroll.in/latest/809287/india-subscribes-to-hague-code-of-conduct-against-ballistic-missile-proliferation
"However, the Ministry of External Affairs clarified that India will not scrap its Agni missile programme. 'Our national security interest will not be impacted in any manner, whatsoever, by joining HCoC,” MEA spokesperson Vikas Swarup said. “India’s joining the Code signals our readiness to further strengthen global non-proliferation objectives,” he added.'

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Jun 2016 06:47

Gurus, I heard from a TV debate that India signed agreement to join MTCR on May 27 that paved way for Exporting brahmos to Vietnam. Is it true ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 07 Jun 2016 18:15

^^ Brahmos does not come under MTCR. Thats how we got it from Russia no?? Its less than 300 km range missile on paper.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 07 Jun 2016 18:57

Now that we are a member of the MTCR, we can promptly whip out the stencil and rename Brahmos as Brahmos-ER and declare that the range limiter is removed and the real range is 600 Kms :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Will result in spontaneous Shalwar browning in Pawkistan... :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cybaru » 07 Jun 2016 19:20

If we are going to restencil it, I say 1200 kms! Atleast keep em guessing what the real range is while browning more than just pakis...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jun 2016 19:42

PratikDas wrote:We're not getting through MTCR any time soon.
:mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kakarat » 07 Jun 2016 20:39

India enters Missile Technology Control Regime group

Getting one ahead towards the NSG membership India becomes the 35th member of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). It is a win for Prime Minister Narendra Modi as he meets US President Barack Obama in Washington.

The 34-nation group to object to India's admission had expired on Monday without any of them raising objections.

Admission to the MTCR would open the way for India to buy high-end missile technology, also making more realistic its aspiration to buy state-of-the-art surveillance drones such as the US Predator.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prasad » 07 Jun 2016 20:46

Marines returning was the last straw there?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 07 Jun 2016 20:47

I don't see China entering MTCR anytime soon given their proliferation to Pak, Iran, Saudis and NoKo. NoKo missiles have only one target - USA.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vishvak » 07 Jun 2016 22:10

From a video posted earlier about an interview with the Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar, there was a line that stated no imports in missiles tech.
viewtopic.php?p=2025115#p2025115
Any idea if any 'new' tech from MTCR etc regimes would disturb such a goal/situation. There could be a subsidiary to handle international tech regimes and avoid such disturbances.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby BharadwajV » 07 Jun 2016 23:45

So MOOG actuators for the Rustom 2 are go?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby partha » 07 Jun 2016 23:48

I remember the discussion many moons ago during Brahmos missile testing about whether US can really "turn off" the GPS over a specific geographical area for a specific duration.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/GPS-Interference-NOTAM-For-Southwest-226365-1.html
GPS Interference Notam For Southwest

A Notam (PDF) is warning operators of “all aircraft relying on GPS” of widespread GPS outages starting Tuesday throughout the Southwest and especially southern California. Although the FAA doesn’t go into detail, it seems the military is testing something that can disrupt GPS over a huge area, centered on China Lake, California, home of the Navy’s China Lake Naval Weapons Center. On Tuesday, June 7, the FAA is warning that GPS signals down to 50 feet AGL could be “unreliable or unavailable” between 9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. local time over a radius of 253 nautical miles, which includes the L.A. Basin, Bay area and Las Vegas. There will be further outages of similar potential duration June 9, 21,23, 28 and 30. The circles expand with altitude and at 40,000 feet the interference will affect a circular area of the Southwest 950 nautical miles across, reaching central Oregon, Colorado and New Mexico.

The tests will potentially knock out all GPS-reliant services including WAAS, GBAS and, notably, ADS-B. The FAA also doesn’t want a lot of radio chatter about the outages and is urging pilots to report them if they need help from ATC. Operators of Embraer Phenom 300 business jets are being urged to avoid the area entirely. “Due to GPS Interference impacts potentially affecting Embraer 300 aircraft flight stability controls, FAA recommends EMB Phenom pilots avoid the … testing area and closely monitor flight control systems,” the Notam reads.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudeepj » 08 Jun 2016 03:25

partha wrote:I remember the discussion many moons ago during Brahmos missile testing about whether US can really "turn off" the GPS over a specific geographical area for a specific duration.
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/GPS-Interference-NOTAM-For-Southwest-226365-1.html
GPS Interference Notam For Southwest



From the link,

Although the FAA doesn’t go into detail, it seems the military is testing something that can disrupt GPS over a huge area, centered on China Lake, California, home of the Navy’s China Lake Naval Weapons Center. On Tuesday, June 7, the FAA is warning that GPS signals down to 50 feet AGL could be “unreliable or unavailable” between 9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. local time over a radius of 253 nautical miles, which includes the L.A. Basin, Bay area and Las Vegas. There will be further outages of similar potential duration June 9, 21,23, 28 and 30. The circles expand with altitude and at 40,000 feet the interference will affect a circular area of the Southwest 950 nautical miles across, reaching central Oregon, Colorado and New Mexico.


This indicates the jamming is being done from the ground, not from the satellites. It is publicly known that new GPS satellites, block III(?) can jam signals in small areas several hundred kms across. Such a capability was not publicly known to be in older GPS satellites in operation during the Kargil conflict. Going over the symptoms described by one of BRF members experienced during his flying in the region, to me, it appeared that the mountainous terrain was masking signals causing outages/outliers.

Mountains can cause some satellites that are being tracked by the receiver to suddenly drop in/out of view. Unless the receiver software is designed to be robust against such interference, it can cause outliers, outages, even receiver reboots. Without proper tests being run with the receivers opened up for debugging, it simply cant be stated that 'US turned off GPS signals...'. Its merely a conjecture grounded in the general adverse feelings the US and Indian armed forces had for each other. There is absolutely no evidence to back such a conjecture.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sum » 08 Jun 2016 04:36

Kakarat wrote:India enters Missile Technology Control Regime group

Getting one ahead towards the NSG membership India becomes the 35th member of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). It is a win for Prime Minister Narendra Modi as he meets US President Barack Obama in Washington.

The 34-nation group to object to India's admission had expired on Monday without any of them raising objections.

Admission to the MTCR would open the way for India to buy high-end missile technology, also making more realistic its aspiration to buy state-of-the-art surveillance drones such as the US Predator.

Only hope that all our drone programmes and shorter range missile programmes dont go into the dustbin( due to user disinterest) now that floodgates for all these shiny new foreign maal will open!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 08 Jun 2016 06:17

krishna_krishna wrote:Gurus, I heard from a TV debate that India signed agreement to join MTCR on May 27 that paved way for Exporting brahmos to Vietnam. Is it true ?


Considering Vietnam already has Bastion (Yakhont mounted on trucks) why would they procure Brahmos? Brahmos has very limited market potential its too big for missile boats and it cannot be launched by any western vls systems which reduces its scope. And to add that most navies procure Asuw as part of export package with a ship, our SYs only now have managed score some export deals.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kashi » 08 Jun 2016 06:43

Forgive my ignorance and lack of understanding, but what benefits does getting into MTCR brings us that were not available before? I saw a few reports about this making it easier for India to go for Predators, but it's really clear why so.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohiths » 08 Jun 2016 07:45

Import Mela will begin on drones and long range missiles

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 08 Jun 2016 07:49

rohiths wrote:Import Mela will begin on drones and long-range missiles


More money to imports or on the positive side MII on missile technology and components. It all depends on the leadership of the nation.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby skaranam » 08 Jun 2016 09:45

any twists in Make in India and MTCR? It should be, but is there a twist which nullifies Make in India?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kashi » 08 Jun 2016 09:47

rohiths wrote:Import Mela will begin on drones and long range missiles


MTCR disallows transfer of missiles with greater than 300km range.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Nitesh » 08 Jun 2016 09:52

Kashi wrote:
rohiths wrote:Import Mela will begin on drones and long range missiles


MTCR disallows transfer of missiles with greater than 300km range.

BUt is is for non signatory nation, now India is part of it, so it will be ok right?
But we will be restricted to not transfer those who are not part of it

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sudhan » 08 Jun 2016 09:55

Afaik, the restriction applies for non MTCR signatories. Signatories and members are free to sell longer ranged maal.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kashi » 08 Jun 2016 10:10

^^ I did not know that. I stand corrected. I wonder who'll be the first to offer us "long range missiles"


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