Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Rishi Verma
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rishi Verma » 23 Dec 2016 21:08

^^ US had designed these in 1980s when S-400 or other anti-missile threats were not on the horizon. Times change and we should not be comparing past examples. Hemant Raut isn't stupid. Basic point is our R&D in weaponry is a generation behind that of even China's and the DRDO (as NaMo has said often) need to be thinking further into the future than tomorrow. Basically total overhaul of the entire thinking process...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby darshhan » 23 Dec 2016 22:12

shiv wrote:I think there are enough skeletons tumbling from the cupboard and enough mud being flung at the program to suggest that all is far from well. The stony silence from anyone inside the program is contrasted by the details revealed by Hemant Rout who has consistently proved to have some inside sources.

I would like to hear about a full review of the program and even a closure would not disappoint me. We need to move ahead and not have internal bickering and a blame game. Even after early failures of Agni and other occasional AAD failures and we did not see such public washing of linen. Naag has had a turbulent course - and yet it did not throw up internal bickering and dissent. The Trishul was quietly taken out from IGMDP. No allegations and infighting.

This is different..a 4th flight and 3 consecutive failures - and this failure being anticipated in addition to reports of interdepartmental bickering.


+1 Shivji. The guy who is leaking the info to Rout is doing this because he is EITHER very frustrated at the state of affairs in dept and geniunely wants to effect changes OR he is actively doing politics to portray the current decision makers in poor light. Both situations are indicative of divided and demoralized team with a weak leadership. Nothing but a deep money sinkhole. Better to opt for closure.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby saip » 23 Dec 2016 22:27

I sometimes wonder if there is a real person called Hemanth Kumar Raut. May be his is just a pen name being used by an insider. Considering the stories he puts out normally contradict, at least initially, official versions, I am surprised that there are no inquiries to find out the source of these leaks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cosmo_R » 23 Dec 2016 22:40

saip wrote:I sometimes wonder if there is a real person called Hemanth Kumar Raut. May be his is just a pen name being used by an insider. Considering the stories he puts out normally contradict, at least initially, official versions, I am surprised that there are no inquiries to find out the source of these leaks.


I speculated about the same thing two years ago on BRF. I don't think he actually exists.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby uddu » 23 Dec 2016 22:56

darshhan wrote: Better to opt for closure.

Nah..A nation like ours facing the kind of threats each day..such program to be given top most priority. Also it's not that the missile has not flown. The second trial was a tremendous success. There is a reliability issue with something going wrong, which need to be identified, fixed and tried again until successful multiple times.
And just because some Journo writes something and there is politics involved never means we stop a program. There is a need for political leadership to step in and sort out the petty politics inside.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby darshhan » 23 Dec 2016 23:05

uddu wrote:
darshhan wrote: Better to opt for closure.

Nah..A nation like ours facing the kind of threats each day..such program to be given top most priority. Also it's not that the missile has not flown. The second trial was a tremendous success. There is a reliability issue with something going wrong, which need to be identified, fixed and tried again until successful multiple times.
And just because some Journo writes something and there is politics involved never means we stop a program. There is a need for political leadership to step in and sort out the petty politics inside.


Closure does not mean that burn your files/records and delete your hard drives and go back to zero. I will say no more except that not much is going to be achieved by the same team. Include the leadership.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cybaru » 24 Dec 2016 01:06

Time for 5th and 6th test till we get it right.. We will find out whats broken and fix it..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nachiket » 24 Dec 2016 01:08

Hope to god Hemant Raut is wrong about this one. Our standoff capability against China is severely restricted without the Nirbhay. We need that program to succeed. Maybe time for Parrikar to step in here. Some heads need to roll for sure. And more responsible ones appointed.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rishi Verma » 24 Dec 2016 02:07

So when Hemant Raut writes good news he is a real reporter with flesh and bones with inside info, and when he writes negative lines he is a phantom who is washing laundry in public?

Perhaps I am a phantom too.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 Dec 2016 02:14

ADE simply doesnt have the instititional depth yet for Nirbhay and thats the basic truth. If navigational hardware from RCI can work in Strat missiles, Astra etc then it would work on Nirbhay. Rustom itself shows that it needs a lot of fine tuning to get to an operational system. The LGB program is yet to be production ready. Nishant took time, developed tech but a follow on CTOL program was launched way later than it should have been, given IA was no longer interested in the truck launched shorter range, harder to recover system. Quite frankly, the DRDO needs more focus from its aero pointsman beyond the established Hyderabad cluster. The LCA suffered likewise from lack of attention. Some lbs need that constant investment of time and effort till thry develop fully beyond one- two programs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 Dec 2016 02:17

Rout is a hack who is trying for national daily prominence. His ticket to the big times is DRDO and ITR where he has sources. He reports every failure with glee abd a lot of sensationalism, adopting a "look what i discovered" tone in which people usually talk about corruption etc. By doing this, he hopes to move into bigger times and national prominence. Perhaps a stint at Dilli or a bigger paper. No phantom stuff.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 24 Dec 2016 02:20

Cybaru wrote:Time for 5th and 6th test till we get it right.. We will find out whats broken and fix it..

When there is something utterly broken with design or process simply trying it again and again will never resolve the issue. You either need to take a new approach or scrap it and look for alternatives. One of key mistakes is relying on just one single development project. Rather we should have multiple CM development projects running in parallel.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 24 Dec 2016 03:24

DRDL is overloaded with programs. There are several which if they reach fruition will change the nature of the services esp. IAFs capabilities vis a vis TSP if IAF too shows the requisite interest and maturity and does not hold out for unobtainium ((c) ramana) which will lead to years and years of trials. The Astra Mk1 for instance vs existing R77 stocks. But coming back to AGWs, Nirbhay is fundamentally ok in all likelihoid aero and hardware wise. ADE simply lacks the manpower depth to work on multiple programs in parallel. DRDL needs to send some of its heavyweights there, even rtd consultants, BParrikar needs to take charge as versus being Procurement Minister as most DMs become, and purse strings opened to create a DRDL eqvt at ADE with the right leadership.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sum » 24 Dec 2016 10:02

nachiket wrote:Hope to god Hemant Raut is wrong about this one. Our standoff capability against China is severely restricted without the Nirbhay. We need that program to succeed. Maybe time for Parrikar to step in here. Some heads need to roll for sure. And more responsible ones appointed.

Even a cursory talk with any senior ADE folk will show whatever Rout has written is 100% true and the Rustom and Nirbhay teams have been on notice since past 2-3 years with swords hanging over their heads and no harsh words being spared from top.
Looks like the Nirbhay team couldnt pull it up in time and there will be consequences ( though i hope it doesnt happen and we persist)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 24 Dec 2016 10:56

Cost of one imported Harpoon missile is US$ 10 million = Rs. 70 crore while total budget for Nirbhay is ₹ 48 crore and each missile is ₹ 10 crore. How do the financials work out? What are the successful products of ADE? In fact Laksya target drone in lot of ways was capacity building project for actual subsonic missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sanjaykumar » 24 Dec 2016 11:05

Yes and that dates from the 1980s. Still no cruise missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 24 Dec 2016 11:10

There is talk of upgrading the requirement from nibhay (1000km+) to kaliber (2000-2500km) & asking for Russian tech.

In September there was an article about how India requested Russia for kaliber . Can someone through some light into the matter

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 24 Dec 2016 11:16

Being a mango and having dealt with PSU & GOI mentality, I am of the view that it is the time that people have a sword hanging over their head sometimes. Waiting to do things perfectly because people are afraid of being wrong helps no one. The only requirement is that people shall not be penalised for risk taking. I am ok if something is tested and failed as long as the trials are done with a reasonable level of care and proper process.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 24 Dec 2016 11:20

Double post
Last edited by jamwal on 24 Dec 2016 11:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 24 Dec 2016 11:20

http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aeros ... based-sams


How Effective is BrahMos against Chinese Ship based SAMs??

After The Announcement of India selling BrahMos missile to Vietnam and probably Philippines also, Many Fanboys went gala over it. It is true that BrahMos is a very effective antiship weapon. But without technical comparison it will be a daydream to think that BrahMos can stop an Invasion on Vietnam's Waters. To know the effectiveness it is important to study how BrahMos performs against Chinese Ship Based SAMs and how much punch does it pack. For that purpose we must study the PLAN ships deployed at it's Borders with Vietnam and their effectiveness. It is very important for India to contain China and create more troubles for it in it's own backyard. Hats Off to the Indian Govt.'s decision to sell BrahMos to Vietnam and even perform Oil exploration there. This would keep China too busy in their own backyard where they would increase the concentration of their assets and won't be able to deploy any formidable force in Indian Ocean.


How Effective is BrahMos against Chinese Ship based SAMs??
12/21/2016 1 Comment

After The Announcement of India selling BrahMos missile to Vietnam and probably Philippines also, Many Fanboys went gala over it. It is true that BrahMos is a very effective antiship weapon. But without technical comparison it will be a daydream to think that BrahMos can stop an Invasion on Vietnam's Waters. To know the effectiveness it is important to study how BrahMos performs against Chinese Ship Based SAMs and how much punch does it pack. For that purpose we must study the PLAN ships deployed at it's Borders with Vietnam and their effectiveness. It is very important for India to contain China and create more troubles for it in it's own backyard. Hats Off to the Indian Govt.'s decision to sell BrahMos to Vietnam and even perform Oil exploration there. This would keep China too busy in their own backyard where they would increase the concentration of their assets and won't be able to deploy any formidable force in Indian Ocean.
Picture
We need to study the Chinese ship based Air Defence Missiles and their probability to hit BrahMos. This would give us clear idea/analysis of our main attack missile BrahMos being capable of high manouvering and accurate Chinese Surface to Air Missiles. The Chinese Ships have been armed with mainly 3 types of Missiles that are used for air defence. The Mach 3 capable BrahMos which is (almost) the fastest Cruise missile in the world definetely have got chances that could be intercepted. The three types are..........................



1. H Q 7 small range Surface to Air Missile.


2. HQ 16 medium range SAM. Ship based version named as HQ 26.


3. HHQ 9 long range SAM.




All Explained below.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby darshhan » 24 Dec 2016 12:35

I seriously doubt if we can continue without disbanding current Nirbhay team 'cause now the team knows there is a rat inside. Wonder what that would have done to the team morale.

Leaking news of impending failure to news reporters wrt missile tests is unprecedented. I hope there is an enquiry commission set up for this. And they need to question Shri Hemant Rout. Even if he does not disclose his source, he can shed light on other things.

The timely and effective completion of any project depends critically on what military units would classify as "Espirit de corps". If that is missing game over. And this in turn is totally dependent on quality leadership.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Marten » 24 Dec 2016 13:10

Darshhan, the leaks need not be from ADE. Hemant Rout is protected by law - and need not reveal his sources. The source however can be jailed for violating the OSA, depending on how much has been spilt. It would not be difficult for agencies to summon Rout's phone and trace the leak within a day. We assume it has not been done, and we could likely be very wrong. When two or more agencies are at cross-purposes, the lab heads would be requested to find and stem the source of the leak. Our assumption is that Hemant is not being used, and that would also likely be wrong.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sum » 24 Dec 2016 13:23

Hope that A5 helps us end the year on a happy and positive note!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 24 Dec 2016 13:51

Conspiracy theory:- Failure of ADE has been very beneficial to import dalals both in cruise missiles and UAVs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 24 Dec 2016 13:56

Indranil wrote:Does anybody know about a SANT missile from RCI? If not, we will come to know soon as they are making a SANT Missile Model for display.

Added later: Looks like a relative of the SAAW missile.


Pls post the portion which makes you feel it's equivalent to SAAW PGM. Thx

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ashishvikas » 24 Dec 2016 14:10

Saurav Jha tweets:

Nirbhay is not mean to have only a GLCM variant. An anti-shipping variant is also planned with an X-band seeker for the end game.

GLCMs and ship-launched land strike variants with greater range than 1500 km are also envisioned.

These longer ranged variants are supposed to be powered by more powerful members of the MANIK small turbofan family.

Avinash Chander's sudden removal & the months that DRDO went without a head, weren't the best things to have happened to Nirbhay.


(JustAsking: Wats current status of MANIK ? CM depending on imported engine isn't nice thing)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Nick_S » 24 Dec 2016 17:00

Anti-Airfield Weapon developed by DRDO flight tested (SAAW)

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1605343

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tushar_m » 24 Dec 2016 20:24

DRDO successfully tests Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon, capable of engaging targets up to 100 km

The Defence and Research Development Organization (DRDO) on Friday successfully flight tested the Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW), from an Indian Air Force (IAF) aircraft. SAAW, an indigenously designed and developed 120 kg. class smart weapon, developed by DRDO, is capable of engaging ground targets with high precision up to a range of 100 kms. The light-weight high precision guided bomb is one of the world class weapons systems.

The captive and release trials were tracked by Radar and Telemetry ground stations at ITR during the entire duration of the flight. The performance of all systems were satisfactory with all the mission objectives achieved. Secretary, Department of Defence (R&D) and Chairman, DRDO, Dr S. Christopher, congratulated DRDO and the IAF teams for the successful mission.

Scientific Advisor to RM and DG (Missile and Strategic Systems), DRDO, Dr G. Satheesh Reddy, lauded the scientific community of the DRDO for their efforts towards the design and development of this state-of-the-art smart weapon within the set time frame.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prithwiraj » 24 Dec 2016 21:05

North Koreans have been desperately trying to rectify issues with the Musudan missiles for last 6 months with multiple failures.... the partial successful test where a Jag chased the missile -- we must have done something right-- so the it is quite amazing to see people claiming fundamental design flaws.. may be it is an issue of reliability and repeatability instead of design problems...

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 24 Dec 2016 21:54

Back in 2014 there was talk about 9 tests by 2017 and missile will be pushed to service by now but they were no were close to achieving that.

In fact only 3 tests were conducted highlights lack of urgency and slow pace at which products are tested. Compare that with barak 8 which went thru dozen tests in a year.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 24 Dec 2016 22:55

Arunachal Pradesh to Eastern Coast of China is around 2000km onwards and cruise missiles can be important force multipliers.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 25 Dec 2016 05:33

ramana wrote:
Indranil wrote:Does anybody know about a SANT missile from RCI? If not, we will come to know soon as they are making a SANT Missile Model for display.

Added later: Looks like a relative of the SAAW missile.



Did you see the sketch or line drawing?

They said it would be in appendix. Nothing there.

No the drawing was not shared. I think it will be pretty much the same as SAAW (drawings of which I had shared earlier). My feeling is that SAAW is GPS guided, whereas SANT has a tracker in the nose.

Gyan wrote:
Indranil wrote:Does anybody know about a SANT missile from RCI? If not, we will come to know soon as they are making a SANT Missile Model for display.

Added later: Looks like a relative of the SAAW missile.


Pls post the portion which makes you feel it's equivalent to SAAW PGM. Thx

It's from watching other tenders and comparing project ids in tender numbers.

Regarding Rout. Let's not hang the fellow because he has brought unsavoury news. I really hope that the Nirbhay continues after a thorough review.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 25 Dec 2016 11:17

One question. Nirbhay is a project run by ADE. So how does changing Avinash Chander of DRDO impact Nirbhay from ADE?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 25 Dec 2016 11:31

Rout is the messenger. Not the message. No point in focusing on messenger.

All thover ideas won't make Nirbhay work. The ADE has to buck up and fix the problems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neshant » 25 Dec 2016 16:01

Nirbhay's ongoing issues look like incompetent technical management of the electronics hardware & firmware development and/or overall system integration.

Suggestion : Put new management in place for the project - one with experience in electronics design & integration. The new management may have to scrap the existing electronics design and start over with a (hopefully) competent team to redesign its navigation & flight computer.

The Nirbhay project can be salvaged but it needs a change of management.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sum » 25 Dec 2016 18:01

ramana wrote:Rout is the messenger. Not the message. No point in focusing on messenger.

All thover ideas won't make Nirbhay work. The ADE has to buck up and fix the problems.

^^++1

However one doubt i have is how was the 2nd test such a wild success where it even went beyond planned range if there are such ultra critical technical/management issues as being speculated? :-?
I guess it isn't as bad as being thought.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2016 18:27

Trishul, Nag, Agni, Prithvi all saw failed tests. It's persistence which matters. Even Trishul came good at the end setting the stage for a SRSAM and the "troubled" Nishant got us to the point where we could launch a Rustom on our own.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Vril » 25 Dec 2016 21:22



Excellent discussion on progression of Agni series and technologies developed and incorporated with each iteration. NFU is covered along with talk of 6K Agni 6. One of the military expert was involved in many DRDO development programs so provides a lot of juicy info :twisted: Must watch for all rakshaks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 25 Dec 2016 22:16

Press Trust of India (PTI) via Times of India (ToI) reports an Agni V test is scheduled for tomorrow:

India set to test-fire nuclear capable Agni-V

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 25 Dec 2016 22:19

arun wrote:Press Trust of India (PTI) via Times of India (ToI) reports an Agni V test is scheduled for tomorrow:

India set to test-fire nuclear capable Agni-V



Below Navarea VIII warning pertains to above Agni V launch?

Can some kind soul project the latitude and longitude onto a map and calculate the dimensions of the box?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DTG 221002/DEC
FROM NAVAREA VIII CO-ORDINATOR TO NAVAREA VIII – 784
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BAY OF BENGAL AND INDIAN OCEAN (.) CHARTS 31 INT 70 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL
FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 26 AND 27 DEC 16 FROM 0300 TO 0700 UTC IN
DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 20-48.36N 087-02.58E, 19-03.39N 086-26.30E, 06-21.99S 087-05.29E,
06-16.38S 089-21.89E, 05-59.58S 091-37.54E, 19-11.29N 088-02.33E, 20-48.76N 087-07.40E AND
15-24.17S 087-38.14E, 25-19.43S 088-26.10E, 25-10.82S 091-02.58E, 24-53.78S 093-37.96E, 14-59.66S
092-35.90E
2. CANCEL MSG 270800 UTC DEC 16
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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