Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 27 Dec 2016 22:30

The British said the same about us.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Aditya G » 27 Dec 2016 22:40

We could be secretly supplying components to Israel for re-export.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rsingh » 27 Dec 2016 22:44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m678KG7_u0c

Very informative video about Russian missiles. Main scientist got highest national award and wife asks him what he does in office. That is why they do not end up in pieces on railway tracks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Marten » 27 Dec 2016 22:50

rsingh wrote:When ever you guys name" Azerbaijan" and Barak in same sentence, it makes me laugh. these guys are langoors who can hardly drive missile trucks . How they are able handle sophisticated system like Barak? I am sure they hired Russian technicians to open the boxes .

For all practical purposes, they are a Turkish run state. Turkish teams are likely present handholding and ensuring the Azeri teams are ready for deployment. This is done for most of their Govt systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rsingh » 27 Dec 2016 22:51

Indranil wrote:The British said the same about us.


Have seen them (Azahris)from very close for 5 years. British -India thing is completely different.India had great Mathematicians and thinkers at the time when Brits lived in primitive conditions.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 27 Dec 2016 23:19

They may not be where we were (are), but what you wrote and continue to write is an utterly racist comment. I think BR is above that.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 27 Dec 2016 23:23

rsingh wrote:When ever you guys name" Azerbaijan" and Barak in same sentence, it makes me laugh. these guys are langoors who can hardly drive missile trucks . How they are able handle sophisticated system like Barak? I am sure they hired Russian technicians to open the boxes .



And you are Doctor Manhattan yourself ? Just curious . :roll:

rsingh wrote:.India had great Mathematicians and thinkers at the time when Brits lived in primitive conditions.


Yup, sure shows how they colonised and looted a nation of "great Mathematicians and thinkers" for centuries.


Why are moderators indulging and allowing such racist tripe here ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 28 Dec 2016 00:16

What is disheartening to see is that a critical missile defense system, which we paid for in full from its inception and has publicly known Indian sub-components (dual pulse motor), is being sold to other country before its being fully inducted by us.

If that's how it is then what was wrong in engaging Russians to co-develop (as we like to say) a India specific S-500MKI.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rsingh » 28 Dec 2016 00:19

Moi ? Racist.......la whole willa quwat. Never knew that.

And you are Doctor Manhattan yourself ? Just curious . :roll:

Don't do that. Please. Its is very slippery slope.



Yup, sure shows how they colonised and looted a nation of "great Mathematicians and thinkers" for centuries.


Not interested in proving to you anything. As I always ay DO NOT BLAME OTHERS FOR YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE.

No more on this from me.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby LokeshC » 28 Dec 2016 00:32

jamwal wrote:Yup, sure shows how they colonised and looted a nation of "great Mathematicians and thinkers" for centuries


OT. But I am surprised such naive thinking exists in BRF. Anyone can be raped, even scientists and mathematicians. How does having thinkers and mathematicians prevent a country from getting colonized and looted?

A little bit of understanding of history would help us not to repeat it. And that would be to understand HOW the charlatans managed to colonize and WHY the great institutions of learning in India fell into disarray much before the britshit locusts landed here.

Apologies for the OT

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 28 Dec 2016 00:54

Let's stop this OT. I hope I got the message across. Continue discussions on the missiles, not Azeris. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 28 Dec 2016 01:16

Ajay Shukla article on A5 has many interesting details. Will comment from my laptop.
The 1.5 tonne is payload not the bomb.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby John » 28 Dec 2016 02:42

Sid wrote:What is disheartening to see is that a critical missile defense system, which we paid for in full from its inception and has publicly known Indian sub-components (dual pulse motor), is being sold to other country before its being fully inducted by us.

If that's how it is then what was wrong in engaging Russians to co-develop (as we like to say) a India specific S-500MKI.

It's already been inducted by Navy and what does mrsam pending induction by AF have anything to do with exporting it to other countries.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 28 Dec 2016 04:26

Can the gurus here make a list of technologies that India needs to develop? And please don't say something as generic seeker. It would be nice to keep this running list of technologies for which we continue to depend on outside help. Hopefully, it shortens with time. For example, I would love to know what came out of such a list by virtue of co developing MRSAM. Personally, I don't give a damn to how IAI markets it.

If some guru will like to create such a "gyan" only thread, you have my permission and support. Posts on such threads will be highly moderated. Any useless post will attract warnings. It will be a thread for reference only.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gerard » 28 Dec 2016 05:17

shiv wrote:
JayS wrote: One can see flame coming out just when the missile clears the tube but before its thruster is started.

Somehow I thought that jet blast was an explosive charge to knock out a cap under the main thruster of Agni. The blast goes left and a largie piece of debris goes right. But I must view the video again


Isn't that the piston (driven upwards by the gas generator) that pushes the missile out of the canister?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2016 05:32

Indranil, IMHO a thread lije that does not help Indian interests. We will basically point out specific areas of weakness and strength, which any OSINT type sgency would otherwise spend immense effort to gather. Usually it takes a keen interest and context plus historical awareness of the specific industry in question, to do what you note. And right now, thankfully, even the syndicated reports are somewhat inaccurate. IMHO we can do it once we cross the threshold in making some of these systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2016 05:35

For MRSAM, tata and DRDO made the C4I system. Its basically the sensor fusion and battery command unit, which automates the entire process. Also all the comms links. Then DRDO and a pvt partner made the TELs which too are automsted and linked wirelessly (see Brahmos battery f.e.) to the Mission center. For the radar, a pvt firm handled the piwer generator.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2016 05:37

Where we did not get much IMO is the radar. Marketing aspect matters because we paid for the JV, but IAI laughs all the way to the bank whilst we remain dependent on them. Anyhow radar wise, we gave the MPR in trials so we will have an alternative in coming years. Seeker was to be made by BEL, but as can be expected Rafael was unhappy with TOT to any state run agency which could leverage the knowledge for other programs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 28 Dec 2016 05:51

Karan, I will take up your advice. Let me see if there is a middle path.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2016 06:24

thanks indranil.

meanwhile, this is our biggest contribution to MRSAM system.

http://www.tataadvancedsystems.com/static.php?id=63

on the plus side this is inhouse.

going forward i expect a variant of this to replace 2084 for AD applications.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EQkI7Z9adIg/U ... A+MPR-1.jp

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 28 Dec 2016 06:56

Gerard wrote:
shiv wrote:Somehow I thought that jet blast was an explosive charge to knock out a cap under the main thruster of Agni. The blast goes left and a largie piece of debris goes right. But I must view the video again


Isn't that the piston (driven upwards by the gas generator) that pushes the missile out of the canister?


Could be - it is definitely a large disc (not just random debris as I had earlier thought) that can be seen hurtling off to the right a few moments after the jet blast to the left in that video.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 28 Dec 2016 07:01

X Posted from the “Indian Foreign Policy” thread.

I wonder what the PRC Spokesperson meant when she said “The UN Security Council has explicit regulations on whether India can develop ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons.”?:

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying's Regular Press Conference on December 27, 2016
2016/12/27

Q: Further to India's successful test of a continental ballistic missile yesterday that can reach most part of Asia and Europe, I would like to have your reaction.

A: We have noted reports on India's test fire of Agni-V ballistic missile. The UN Security Council has explicit regulations on whether India can develop ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons. China always maintains that preserving the strategic balance and stability in South Asia is conducive to peace and prosperity of regional countries and beyond.

We also notice reports, including some from India and Japan, speculating whether India made this move to counter China. They need to ask the Indian side for their intention behind the move. On the Chinese part, China and India have reached an important consensus that the two countries are not rivals for competition but partners for cooperation as two significant developing countries and emerging economies. China is willing to work alongside regional countries including India to maintain the long-lasting peace, stability and prosperity of the region. We also hope that relevant media can report in an objective and sensible manner and do more things to contribute to the mutual trust between China and India and regional peace and stability.
Clicky

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gerard » 28 Dec 2016 07:03

Resolution 1172

http://www.un.org/press/en/1998/sc6528.doc.htm

Calling on India and Pakistan immediately to stop their nuclear-weapon development programmes, to cease development of ballistic missiles capable of delivering nuclear weapons and any further production of fissile material for nuclear weapons, the Council encouraged all States to prevent the export of equipment, materials or technology that could in any way assist their programmes for nuclear weapons or for ballistic missiles capable of delivering such weapons.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gerard » 28 Dec 2016 07:06

Could be - it is definitely a large disc (not just random debris as I had earlier thought) that can be seen hurtling off to the right a few moments after the jet blast to the left in that video.


You see this piston deflection in clips of silo launched Russian missiles

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 28 Dec 2016 07:12



Thanks. Yes this resolution seems to be what has got PRC worked up. I trust our Foreign Policy establishment fires back that India will not be bound by any Nuclear Apartheid Policy of Nuclear Weapon States.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sum » 28 Dec 2016 07:19


Does extrapolation work for missile range since we always seem to test for lesser ranges( by using bleeding manuavers/lesser fuel etc) than the actual capability of the system?

If the test works smoothly for a lower range, is it assumed it will work fine for the entire capable range too? Had this Q ever since the A-II/A-III tests with reduced ranges

Edit: Even though we officially claim A-V as 5000 km, it is "hinted" that 8K is the true range ( with lighter payload etc). But, can we be sure of that unless we actually test it to the "hinted" range or is it assumed that once it crosses certain threshold, it will achieve the actual range and no need to explicitely test it
Last edited by sum on 28 Dec 2016 07:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 28 Dec 2016 07:32



I do not buy this story by IDRW, which in any case is a copy paste speculate type amateur fanboy source of information, that the Agni V test flight was limited to 2,500 km. The “Official” Press Release is explicit in stating that this was a “full range test-flight”:

Successful Test Flight of Agni-5

That the Agni V test seems to have gone well beyond 2,500 km is also indicated by Prasanna Simha’s post on page 74 of this thread:

Clicky

Perhaps some kind soul might will rework the Latitude, Longitude, Distance etc from the figures in the NOTAM and bury the blather from IDRW:

Clicky

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 28 Dec 2016 07:43

Unlikely to be 2500 Kim's mostly 2500 Kim's from Australia!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 28 Dec 2016 07:47

The thing being ejected to the side is the base plate cap /piston that is used to seal and separate the gas generator and act as the piston for the ejection as well as protecting the missile. This is ejected by side lateral charge to prevent fall back on the truck and canister. Similar lateral charges are used to eject the nose cap of canidterised K15 and Shaurya. Most Canistered nonhotlaumched Russian missiles use this method

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gerard » 28 Dec 2016 07:48


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prasannasimha

Postby prasannasimha » 28 Dec 2016 08:03

Image

This explains cold launch very well

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karthik S » 28 Dec 2016 08:03

Second part from Ajai Shukla

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 991_1.html

Agni-6 ICBM evolving organically from Agni-5

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby prasannasimha » 28 Dec 2016 08:05

At the base of the rocket, a special tray is installed. A black-powder mortar system is initiated at launch time to rapidly push the tray and rocket upward out of the Silo. Immediately after exiting the Silo, the Tray is ejected to the side by small rocket motors. At the same time, a series of five O-Rings that are located between the stages and interfaces are jettisoned. An instant later, the first stage of Dnepr ignites and the rocket takes off. Also, the oxidizer tanks of the vehicle are vented causing small clouds of dark gas to be released.

http://spaceflight101.com/spacerockets/dnepr/

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby GShankar » 28 Dec 2016 08:06

May be we are faking a downhill skiing manoeuvre to handle UN, China and others?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby sum » 28 Dec 2016 08:08



"Though the missile has the capability to strike targets more than 5,000 km away, it was tested for less than 2,500 km. The missile followed the pre-designated flight path perfectly and reached the point of impact as expected. The duration of entire flight was 19 minutes," said a defence official.

So indeed a 2.5K range test then!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gerard » 28 Dec 2016 08:10

This contradicts other reports though. We may have some disinformation being put out.

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Re: prasannasimha

Postby shiv » 28 Dec 2016 08:56

prasannasimha wrote:http://104.131.251.97/spacerockets/wp-content/uploads/sites/17/2015/08/Dnepr-Silo.jpg

This explains cold launch very well

This is exactly the sequence that the Agni 5 follows. Will post a video in due course

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Neshant » 28 Dec 2016 09:38

China wants to question Agni-V launch at UN Security Council

China said on Tuesday it is willing to question India’s successful launch of Agni-V ballistic missile at the United Nations Security Council. It is one of the five permanent members of UNSC.”

The UN Security Council has explicit regulations on whether India can develop ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear weapons,” Hua Chunying, spokesperson of the Chinese foreign ministry said. She did not specify if Beijing would actually invoke these rules, perhaps hoping that Indian diplomats would react sharply. The ministry disclosed its concern about reports in the Indian and Japanese media speculating that Agni-V is meant to counter China . “They need to ask the Indian side for their intention behind the move,” she said referring to the media.

The Agni-V can reach most parts of Asia and Europe, which is what stirred media speculation that its purpose is to tackle challenges from China and Pakistan. The statement came on a day when China released a white paper revealing its ambitious plans to land on the moon in 2018, and launch a Mars probe in 2020. Beijing also claimed that it uses space sciences for peaceful purposes. “China is willing to work alongside regional countries including India to maintain the long-lasting peace, stability and prosperity of the region,” she said. China and India have reached an important consensus that the two countries are not rivals for competition but partners+ as two significant developing countries and emerging economies, she pointed out.

Hua expressed the hope that “relevant media can report in an objective and sensible manner and do more things to contribute to the mutual trust between China and India and regional peace and stability”. The media is often targeted in proxy wars as diplomats do not wish to directly challenge their counterparts in the other country, observers said.”China always maintains that preserving the strategic balance and stability in South Asia is conducive to peace and prosperity of regional countries and beyond,” she said. Discussing the goals of Beijing’s space policy, the white paper said,

“To explore the vast cosmos, develop the space industry and build China into a space power is a dream we pursue unremittingly”. China aims to use space for peaceful purposes and to guarantee national security, and to carry out cutting-edge scientific research, it said.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 205307.cms

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby tsarkar » 28 Dec 2016 10:38

^^
Selling something developed for one customer on its money to others is very common in business - not just military - but civil as well.

For example, and IT company might develop a solution for Bank X on its money and test it out too at Bank X, then immediately pitch it to other banks, including competitors of Bank X.

Beyond that, solution architects and developers will immediately put the solution in their CV's and apply for jobs at competitor IT companies. The Scorpene leak is caused by such an employee stealing data to put on their CVs.

While there are agreements, they're openly flouted.

Exclusivity in business is like virginity. Everyone wants their partner to have it, but themselves keen to lose it at the first opportunity.


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