Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 08:14

This part needs to be drummed into the heads of the crowd who push for their respective favorites. Even Thales won't be 100% reliable depending on political push and pull.

Justification for single tender
Choice of going on single tender to M/S Thales is due to the following reasons.

USA does not respond to requests for selling FPAs also. Hence approaching USA may not yield any useful outcome.

Israeli defence firm are generally interested in selling their product than carrying out such analysis and help.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Picklu » 03 Nov 2015 08:50

Getting a leg up in MWIR area will help in future AAM development.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 03 Nov 2015 09:30

A contrarian view ... it need not just be Helina, it could be the nose FLIR on LCH too, no ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 09:36

Srin, thing is that would not be RCI but IRDE then.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 03 Nov 2015 09:45

its time to produce and deploy the PDV and AAD even if not fully battle-ready to get vital operational experience and work out procedures. one can safely say 10% of issues come only through extended field use.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 10:04

AF has probably given them a 100 use cases to work through which each test has to hit most of.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 03 Nov 2015 10:09

KaranM, LCH has 4 blades then where is 21 Hz sine wave coming from!

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 03 Nov 2015 10:16

ramana wrote:I don't get why LWIR is being swapped for MWIR? I understand MWIR FPA has better resolution (384*288)/(128*128). Is it detection at longer range from air?


LWIR offers long range detection, while MWIR offers higher resolution.

LWIR is like S-band radar, while MWIR is X-band in terms of detection and resolution.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 03 Nov 2015 10:26

GunterH wrote:My theory is that the S400 is Paki specific.

** They may want to negate the paki nuclear-tipped cruise missile threat
** Pakis may be aquiring 5-10 chinese stealth planes in the coming years, and S400 might make them think twice before a misadventure.
** Pakis will also be getting Chinese armed drones and need to detect them early and shoot them down if inside our territory
** psychological effect on paki pilots

(not sure if our AWACS and S400 would / should be networked - may require ToT)


All Pak specific reasons mentioned here are due Chinese planes, drones and missiles.

So why, if such S400 procurement happens, it has to be Pak specific and not China. :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 10:33

https://www.google.co.in/patents/US4527951

In connection with helicopters vibrations in the helicopter body or nacelle are primarily caused by periodically occurring forces and moments which are transmitted by the helicopter rotor blades into the helicopter body or nacelle. Due to the transmission of these forces and moments, also referred to as loads, from the rotating system, including the helicopter rotor, into the fixed or stationary system, including the helicopter body, only certain so-called rotor harmonic forces and moments may be transmitted and these forces and moments are dependent on the number of the rotor blades. In the instance of a hingeless helicopter rotor having four rotor blades and due to the just stated fact, the so-called 3Ω and 5Ω moments at the rotor blade foot or neck are controlling for the low frequency nacelle vibrations. In this connection Ω designates the so-called rated rotary frequency which, for example, in the mentioned helicopter type is about 7 Hertz corresponding to 44.4 radians per second (rad/s). The vibration suppressor, in the example here described a governor or centrifugal pendulum, must be constructed with due regard to the frequency to be suppressed in this instance, for example 3Ω equal to 21 Hz. Such construction is necessary so that the vibration suppressor is capable of absorbing the periodic forces or moments which are otherwise capable of being transmitted from the helicopter rotor blades to the helicopter nacelle.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 10:39



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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Nick_S » 03 Nov 2015 13:07

^ Thank you. Very interesting videos.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 15:14

I hope MOD has the brains to have DRDO continue its VLR SAM program. China has the S-400, they will know its pros and cons even if they can't jam its Indian variant. We need our own systems for long term security.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby soumik » 03 Nov 2015 15:18

http://www.uniindia.com/india-seals-rs- ... V6WQ6iO.99

Deal finalized apparently, 70,000 crores i.e 11 billion$ seems to be too big an amount though.
we should be getting more than 20 systems for that kind of moolah!

New Delhi, Nov 2 (UNI) In what could easily be said the biggest ever defence deal with Russia, India has stitched a contract to acquire S-400 anti-ballistic missile systems from Moscow at a cost of around Rs 70,000 crores, top sources in the Defence Ministry said here today.

The modalities, including the price of deal and number of systems to be acquired, were agreed upon in the meeting of India-Russia Inter Governmental Commission on Military-Technical-Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) which concluded today in Moscow, with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar co-chairing it jointly with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu.

The mega deal, along with an agreement to get another nuclear submarine, is likely to be formally signed during the visit to Russia of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who would be travelling to Moscow sometime in December for an annual summit with President Vladimir Putin, the sources told UNI.


Source: http://defence.pk/threads/india-seals-r ... z3qQMyMKyr

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 03 Nov 2015 15:40

one route could be pindigenize the radars and EW eqpt in phases
another route is develop and integrate our own missiles into the s400 launch systems

thats the route the chinese usually take...they got quite a bit of stuff 'cloned' from the s300...they purchased some 200 launchers for land and unknown number for 051 ships.

KaranM - china has the S300, not 400. I dont know how common the ground systems are.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 03 Nov 2015 15:43

Cheen could be lining up to buy it though....http://thediplomat.com/2015/04/sold-rus ... china/Last April, Russian President Vladimir Putin approved of the principle of selling the systems to China. As Zachary Keck wrote at the time:

Despite the ongoing talks, some had felt that Russia would ultimately refuse to sell China the S-400 surface-to-air missile system for a number of reasons. First, there were reports that Russia planned to withhold all foreign sales of the S-400 until Moscow’s own military needs had been satisfied, sometime later this decade. More importantly, there were widespread concerns in Russian military circles that China would purchase a few of the systems with the intent of stealing the technology and reverse engineering a domestic version.

It seems Russia has decided to go through with the deal despite these concerns. The details of the actual deal have not been revealed, but reports in November indicated that China “had signed a $3 billion contract for at least six S-400 divisions, which have about eight missile launchers each.”

As of 2008, China fielded approximately 40 S-300PMU systems, as well as 60 HQ-15/18s, a Chinese-built version

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 03 Nov 2015 15:50

from a old AFM thread:History of Chinese S-300 ADS purchases;
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... -S-300PMU2

1) First, in 1993 with S-300PMU comprising 2 missile battalions. A total of 32 launching units/trucks, with a double ammunition reserve of 5V55R (with radar homing warhead), and a software mod to allow the Favorit to control the 5V55R. Cost was $220 million, 65% through barter goods, and the rest in hard currency. So that's 32x(4 missiles per truck), + 2x(32x4) = 384 missiles total + unknown local production?

2) Second contract in 1994, for 4 missile battalions of S-300PMU1s with 32 launch units, plus a reserve of 196 48N6E missiles. Hard currency paid for half, the other half through barter. Hmm, the Russians really like to barter. No info on extra ammunition reserves? Contract was about $400 million

3) Third contract, which just finished, cost about $440 million. 4 missile battalions of the S-300PMU1A third contract, with 32 launch units and a reserve of 198 48N6E missiles. (China has finalised a $980- million contract with Russia's Rosoboronexport to acquire the Favorit [S-300PMU2] air-defence missile system (ADMS): the first export sale for the system since it became available on the international market in 2001.
The contract includes an 83M6E2 vehicle-mounted command post, eight 90Zh6E2 batteries, one set of 48N6E2 missiles, hardware support tech.)

So that's 384 5V55R missiles, and (256+196+198) = 650 48N6E missiles.

---
net they purchased some 96 launcher trucks for the S300 and produced some 60+ HQ15/18 "systems" which if they follow the Rus way 8 trucks per system translates to 60*8=480 launcher trucks.

things must have moved on a bit since 2008, so one can safely assume they likely have 750-1000 heavy SAM trailers in service featuring a mix of 5v55, 48n6 and local license made and bootleg clones.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 15:51

Singha wrote:KaranM - china has the S300, not 400. I dont know how common the ground systems are.


they ordered the S-400 as well. 6 battalions apparently.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29089 » 03 Nov 2015 15:55

Kanson wrote:
GunterH wrote:My theory is that the S400 is Paki specific.

** They may want to negate the paki nuclear-tipped cruise missile threat
** Pakis may be aquiring 5-10 chinese stealth planes in the coming years, and S400 might make them think twice before a misadventure.
** Pakis will also be getting Chinese armed drones and need to detect them early and shoot them down if inside our territory
** psychological effect on paki pilots

(not sure if our AWACS and S400 would / should be networked - may require ToT)


All Pak specific reasons mentioned here are due Chinese planes, drones and missiles.

So why, if such S400 procurement happens, it has to be Pak specific and not China. :)


Four reasons onlee saar,

a) Size and location of Bakistan. A relatively few systems can cover the length and the width of the country
b) Cost. A relatively fewer systems can cover Sh*tistan than would be needed for China
c) Initial deployment. A relatively fewer systems allow us to protect from one enemy while we learn and develop our own system in the long run.
d) More imminent threat is from Porkistan and not China (even if Porkistan is doing China's bidding)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 03 Nov 2015 18:22

Chinese are expected to start receiving their S-400's in 2017 or 2018 iirc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Kanson » 03 Nov 2015 19:40

As per one report, Chinese order will be completed in 2017.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 03 Nov 2015 19:45

God knows what has come over MOD to warrant the purchase of this system and on such a large scale. If report about the order size if correct, than USD 11 billion is a huge order....assuming each battery with missiles+radar costs USD 250 million, we're talking about 40 batteries! This is bloody humongous...Not that I'm complaining but am sure that with 50% of that amount, most of IA Air Defense could be modernized.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 03 Nov 2015 19:49

Mod balked at same sum for rafale

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Hitesh » 03 Nov 2015 19:53

I do not agree with this purchase. The limits of SAMs are there for everyone to see. The Israelis raid into Syria with its S-300 systems, anyone?? We are better off by getting more planes and better sensors. We can make our missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 03 Nov 2015 20:07

Syria never had S-300 and still dont , the only country in MaE that would have S-300 in near future would be Iran

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 03 Nov 2015 20:07

$11 billion for just S-400 doesn't sound right. I would think the deal being negotiated with Russia are for a bunch of things, such as second SSN, FGFA, MTA, S-400, BMP-II , IL-76/78 mod etc, which total to around $11billion spread over a decade (similar to previous deals with Russians).

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 03 Nov 2015 20:16

I don't know how much reliable figure that 11 billion is , I would take that with some salt may be aa bagful for now unless MOD officially confirms it.

But for argument sake , S-400 is a 4 missile SAM covering Max range of 40 to 400 km and altitude of Max 25 to 185 km depending upon the SAM.

I think they would also buy lot of Nebo-M and Passive system to compliment this system to deal with LO target of broad capability and also to test our own AD folks with LO during exercise involving cruise missile and stealth aircraft

Plus the have MRSAM covering Max range of 150 km , I am not counting Akash and MOD Pechora , I am jst counting IAF system as they would be responsible for BMD and airspace

SOC had covered an article on Indian AD and he showed leaving some areas its very thin

I think with the purchase of these and PDV/PAD in 10 years we will have AD system that would be of extreme frightening prospect for any advesory
Last edited by Austin on 03 Nov 2015 20:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Cain Marko » 03 Nov 2015 20:17

So, from what I gather, India must be desperately needing ultra long ranged aad against maneuvering targets....Don't know if it has anything to do with tsp recently announcing its nuke intent, nasr threat could be serious and the possibility of 5g birds coming to the fore as well. Or possibly it is simply a way of filling a gaping hole. Or possibly a way of air defence and offence that is cheaper than fighters in terms of readiness and lcc. The s400 fits the bill, and forces must be impressed by is capabilities

Based on my understanding and one of Karans posts, the aad,pad, pdv will continue as s400 is not truly bmd system unlike aad, pad, which of course is not made for anti aircraft roles. the ultra long Sam being talked about would take too long to come online and even so, the s400 beats it handily in terms of range.

But this sure is a surprise...I thought even a purchase of extra mkis more likely.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 03 Nov 2015 20:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Picklu » 03 Nov 2015 20:20

^^ +1 srai

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Paul » 03 Nov 2015 20:43

Parrikar had given a statement when pushing for LCA that missiles can perform the role of AD and this acquisition relects that line of thinking.
one objective of this purchase is to buy more time for India to induct its own fighters in Numbers.

The priority of the Rafale purchase just went down by one more notch. Unless the French come up with a offer that we cannot refuse,it will not happen.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 03 Nov 2015 20:47

Cain Marko wrote:So, from what I gather, India must be desperately needing ultra long ranged aad against maneuvering targets....Don't know if it has anything to do with tsp recently announcing its nuke intent, nasr threat could be serious and the possibility of 5g birds coming to the fore as well. Or possibly it is simply a way of filling a gaping hole. Or possibly a way of air defence and offence that is cheaper than fighters in terms of readiness and lcc. The s400 fits the bill, and forces must be impressed by is capabilities

Based on my understanding and one of Karans posts, the aad,pad, pdv will continue as s400 is not truly bmd system unlike aad, pad, which of course is not made for anti aircraft roles. the ultra long Sam being talked about would take too long to come online and even so, the s400 beats it handily in terms of range.

But this sure is a surprise...I thought even a purchase of extra mkis more likely.


So Pakis make a claim and within what... 01 or 02 week/s we are ready with 11 Billion Dollars purchase order and the Russians agree? I think not.

11 Billion dollar will include many more things like the 2nd Akula etc but be sure that this was cooking for quite some time. We just didn't know. Also under MAD we better get used to not knowing quite a few things from Arihant to ... :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 03 Nov 2015 21:15

http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/cover-story/Near-miss/articleshow/49637487.cms
The confusion, which could have had catastrophic consequences, was caused by a clerical error. The Navy's NOTAM request for Saturday sought airspace closure between 1230 hrs to 1530 hrs, with no mention whether the time referred to was IST or GMT. The Air Traffic Control assumed it was GMT and ended up closing the airspace three hours after the exercises began.

The mess up came to light at 6 pm when Sandeep Joshi, the Watch Safety Officer on duty at Air Traffic Control in Mumbai made a routine check with the naval officials. "Joshi wanted to check with the naval officers if everything was as per schedule. He was shocked to learn that the exercises had taken place with the airspace open for commercial aircraft," said a source.

Commander Sinha said there was no mistake on the navy's part in seeking the NOTAM. "The AAI is the competent authority for promulgation of NOTAMs. While planning and conducting naval firing exercises at sea which require issue and promulgation of NOTAMs, the details are conveyed by the Navy to AAI. Over the last week, a few such notices were issued. It is confirmed that correct NOTAMs were issued and all naval firings were undertaken in accordance with these promulgated NOTAMs."

Another senior naval officers said they always carry out an air-range clearance before firing. In lay man's terms, a check is carried out to make sure no aircraft is in the missile's path before it is fired.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 03 Nov 2015 21:16

for a few days enjoy the paks pooping their pants. don't be all dharmic and nitpick the $11bn number. :mrgreen:
brown pants are being ordered en masse in TSP and y'all are wondering about which and what battery when there is major sh!ttery going on. :lol:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 03 Nov 2015 21:44

deejay wrote:So Pakis make a claim and within what... 01 or 02 week/s we are ready with 11 Billion Dollars purchase order and the Russians agree? I think not.


S-400 is just there to seduce the Pakis , Make them feel good :P

http://i21.servimg.com/u/f21/15/54/62/79/articl10.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 03 Nov 2015 22:13

IMHO US of A is also a silent recipient of message India conveyed using S-400 sale.

Wiith all that pappi jhappi on 26 Jan, Unkil still went of to host ganja and hand over another batch of F-16s plus god knows what despite India's concerns. And with all goodwill gestures from India, being nice kid in the street, we are still denied entry into NSG or other stupid privileged grps. Basic technology still being denied to us while arming our friendly neighbour.

Well looks like reality finally struck us.

S-400 purchase means F-16 or any bunders don't matter anymore to us. In response Porkies will procure HQ-9, but lets see.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 03 Nov 2015 22:13

I can't understand the immediate military need for the S-400 system. There is probably a geopolitical need. Or may be it is a reactionary buy to the Chinese acquisition of the same. I can't bring myself to believe it is a Pak-specific buy. The asymmetry there is well established.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srin » 03 Nov 2015 22:21

Or it might be anti-J20 ... but 70K crores is still mind-boggling

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_29151 » 03 Nov 2015 22:40

Deal done at 10.8 billion?
Source : defence news


New Delhi, Nov 2 (UNI) In what could easily be said the biggest ever defence deal with Russia, India has stitched a contract to acquire S-400 anti-ballistic missile systems from Moscow at a cost of around Rs 70,000 crores (US $10.8 billion), top sources in the Defence Ministry said here today.

The modalities, including the price of deal and number of systems to be acquired, were agreed upon in the meeting of India-Russia Inter Governmental Commission on Military-Technical-Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) which concluded today in Moscow, with Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar co-chairing it jointly with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu.

The mega deal, along with an agreement to get another nuclear submarine, is likely to be formally signed during the visit to Russia of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who would be travelling to Moscow sometime in December for an annual summit with President Vladimir Putin, the sources told UNI.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 03 Nov 2015 22:43

indranilroy wrote:I can't understand the immediate military need for the S-400 system. There is probably a geopolitical need. Or may be it is a reactionary buy to the Chinese acquisition of the same. I can't bring myself to believe it is a Pak-specific buy. The asymmetry there is well established.


Yes, from a defensive perspective. Think of aggression and the military limitations minus S-400. Maybe it makes more sense that way.

As regards China, we will need far too many of these S 400's to really close all gaps convincingly. On the Geopolitical scale the second Akula, 02 Kilos and FGFA or PAKFA make as much or more noise combined (Yes S 400 helps) even without the S 400.

As of now it is all speculation but if I were a 'brown shalwared rat' I would assume this ones coming up my backside. :mrgreen:


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