Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 09 Oct 2015 15:01

Looking at the range of Russian cruise missiles, I wonder if the range of Nirbhay is something like 3000km?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2015 15:48

Karan M wrote:
kit wrote:DRDO has built up very good competencies as regards missiles .. conception to production in less than 7 years according to its head .. quite possible that the desi Meteor enters trial stage in a few years.


That has been achieved for some programs, though not all. There is a resource and funding crunch at DRDO appearances apart, hence the open appeal by Christopher to the RM at the recent awards event. This Meteor is years away IMHO. The Astra needs to enter service first, quickly followed by the Mk2 to meet immediate needs. A lot depends on how this SFDR motor performs in the trials.


Just let NaMo know how much money a desi meteor can save by make in india :mrgreen: in addition to capability enhancement by a very significant margin for the LCA !

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 09 Oct 2015 22:04

Gyan wrote:Looking at the range of Russian cruise missiles, I wonder if the range of Nirbhay is something like 3000km?

The difference between the Tomahawk and Nirbhay is the miniaturization of the subsystems on the former. This allows the Tomahawk to carry much more fuel. The range of Nirbhay at the moment is 1200-odd kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 10 Oct 2015 04:02

Any comments on this?
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/10/ ... d-off.html

The range and weight are not reliable. 200 odd kg weight for a 200 KM range? The wings seem fixed so reduce the numbers that can be carried.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 10 Oct 2015 04:14

Good effort. The subsystems and the engines will all have to come from DRDO and the engine esp, is our achilles heel for now. Till we get it up and running for nbay

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 10 Oct 2015 05:06

Bheeshma wrote:Any comments on this?
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/10/ ... d-off.html

The range and weight are not reliable. 200 odd kg weight for a 200 KM range? The wings seem fixed so reduce the numbers that can be carried.


They look more like concept studies to me. They would need to go through full R&D and trials before they can be operationalized. A2G weapons typically take a lot of time to develop. Even dumb bombs need to go through extensive design studies involving wind tunneling and CFD followed by separation trials in various profiles and conditions. Test aircraft, that are integrated with the new weapon, are not always available. If you remember Sudarshan LGB was canned after reaching the flight trial stage because of too much wobbling during higher altitude release. For smart weapons, a lot more components need to be developed, integrated and tested. Still a long way to go to, IMO.

The good side is at least there is a buy-in from the user from the get go since they did design them ;)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 10 Oct 2015 06:05

Bheeshma wrote:Any comments on this?
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/10/ ... d-off.html

The range and weight are not reliable. 200 odd kg weight for a 200 KM range? The wings seem fixed so reduce the numbers that can be carried.

It's private sector

The following gives me hope..provided some baboo does not put a spoke
Deo has developed the weapons in a private workshop that he receives support for from the air force.


But on the downside
The weapons have so far remained concepts given that they have no official sanction and aren't routed through the established DRDO-DPSU route to service entry.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 10 Oct 2015 06:53

^^^

As much as we all want Indian private sector to be involved in MIC, like in wholesale PGM development, they lack the infrastructure and investments to make it a reality. In any case, the government would need to fund more than 80% of R&D as is typical in the West for private companies, who don't want to take the risk unless profits are imminent and/or sizable. A lot of the weapon systems can take a decade or more to materialize.

A path forward would be to slowly build capacity and capability in the private sector where they can move up the value chain from Tier-3 supplier to Tier-1. Then the next logical step from there would be to become a vertical integrator.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 10 Oct 2015 07:53

Thanks, yes it looks like private initiative I don't know how realistic these designs are.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2015 22:26

folks dumb bomb ballistics to achieve even 10 m accuracy is a big R&D program.
Needs: aerodynamic characteristics of bomb body, aircraft navigation system, release mechanism and so on.

Glide and smart bombs are an order of magnitude with electronics thrown in.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Oct 2015 08:05

Interesting names. I like Waghanakh (tiger claw) and Vel(motion). Vel and Varunastra seem variants of each other.

member_23370
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 11 Oct 2015 08:14

Vel is Spear in tamil. Shiv's son Karthikeya's weapon. I think thats what it stands for.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Oct 2015 08:18

Bheeshma wrote:Vel is Spear in tamil. Shiv's son Karthikeya's weapon. I think thats what it stands for.


Thank you. Either would be acceptable to the jingo :)

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rohitvats » 11 Oct 2015 09:05

Finally - we'll be getting the bid daddy of Air Defense!!!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/India-planning-acquisition-of-advanced-Russian-air-defence-missile-system/articleshow/49306976.cms

NEW DELHI: In what could be a game-changing arms acquisition, India is planning to acquire the new-generation Russian S-400 Triumf air defence missile systems that can destroy incoming hostile aircraft, stealth fighters, missiles and drones at ranges of up to 400-km.

Sources say the defence acquisitions council (DAC), chaired by Manohar Parrikar, will "soon" take up the proposal moved by the IAF to purchase around a dozen S-400 long-range systems from Russia.

"The project is at an initial stage at present. But it will be a government-to-government contract when it is finalized, with the S-400 systems being inducted over several years," said a defence ministry source.

The procurement proposal comes ahead of Parrikar's impending visit to Russia, which will be followed by the Modi-Putin summit in Moscow in December. It also comes around a year after China sealed a $3 billion deal with Russia for acquisition of six S-400 batteries.

China is slated to get the S-400 batteries, which is designated `SA-21 Growler' by NATO and rivals the anti-ballistic missile capabilities of the US Patriot PAC-3 system, from 2017 onwards.

Countries locked in territorial disputes with China in the East and South China Seas, ranging from Japan and Taiwan to Vietnam and the Philippines, are all worried at the prospect of the People's Liberation Army getting such a force-multiplier to dominate the airspace. India obviously is also wary of China acquiring such a military capability, even if it is defensive in nature, since it can make all the difference during a conflict.

The S-400 basically has three kinds of missiles, with different capabilities, that can fly at supersonic and hypersonic speeds to intercept all kinds of targets at ranges from 120 to 400-km. Russian experts even proclaim the S-400 surface-to-air missile (SAM) system can "radar lock and shoot down" stealth fifth-generation fighters like the American F-35 jets.

India, on its part, is now belatedly trying to plug the gaping holes in its airspace surveillance and defence network with progressive induction of a wide array of sensors and weapons.

With both IAF, tasked with the country's air defence, and Army saddled with increasingly obsolete air defence weapons, the ongoing induction of the indigenous 25-km range Akash area defence system has come as a major relief for them. [Good words for Akash from someone like Pandit] :twisted:

Induction of the Israeli Spyder low-level quick-reaction missile systems, with a 15-km range, is now planned from 2016-2017 onwards. The project was stuck since the Tatra trucks -- on which the missile systems were to be mounted - had got enmeshed in corruption scandals. The contract was recently amended to replace the Tatra trucks with Tata trucks.

Deliveries of the medium-range SAM systems jointly developed by Israeli Aerospace Industries and DRDO, with an interception range of 70-km, will also begin from 2016-2017.

Along with induction of these weapons, IAF is also now expanding its fully-automated surveillance network called IACCS (integrated air command and control system) to the entire country, with the cabinet committee on security recently approving another Rs 8,000 crore for the project. Eventually, the Army and Navy's Akash Teer and Triguna air defence networks will be integrated with the IACCS. [This is absolutely fantastic news...all the fire units and decision nodes will have common picture]


Question: Whatever happened to our derivation of Green Pine radar and why can't AAD+LRTR combo be used for such long range AD tasks?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Paul » 11 Oct 2015 09:41

One battery of S-400 placed around Ludhiana will render Sargodha AFB unflyable. It is 1/2 hr flying time so should be around 250 - 300 kn at most

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby PratikDas » 11 Oct 2015 10:05

Paul wrote:One battery of S-400 placed around Ludhiana will render Sargodha AFB unflyable. It is 1/2 hr flying time so should be around 250 - 300 kn at most

Are we forgetting the fact that China is getting to buy these as well?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Paul » 11 Oct 2015 10:09

IMO It does not make sense to compare China in this context. Most likely they will be placing these batteries to enforce a no fly zone around Taiwan or SCS for beginners. Last I checked, IAF is not planning on deployments in this area.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby PratikDas » 11 Oct 2015 10:15

Paul wrote:IMO It does not make sense to compare China in this context. Most likely :rotfl: they will be placing these batteries to enforce a no fly zone around Taiwan or SCS for beginners. Last I checked, IAF is not planning on deployments in this area.


Last I checked, China didn't consult you for their air defense either.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby pragnya » 11 Oct 2015 10:35

so from the article SPYDER SAM has not been inducted so far.

Induction of the Israeli Spyder low-level quick-reaction missile systems, with a 15-km range, is now planned from 2016-2017 onwards. The project was stuck since the Tatra trucks -- on which the missile systems were to be mounted - had got enmeshed in corruption scandals. The contract was recently amended to replace the Tatra trucks with Tata trucks.


weren't the TATA trucks modified long back as per these pictures.

this contradicts tsarkar's cliam that it is inducted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 11 Oct 2015 10:59

what happened to the Green pine / Swordfish/ PAD etc ?!! :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby nash » 11 Oct 2015 11:45

One each at Rajkot, ludhiana, jodhpur, somewhere at Thar desert and jammu will undone very much every PAF airbase

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 11 Oct 2015 12:35

The new S-350 is even deadlier.Austin has posted pics of these new SAMs,which have 12 missile tubes on the mobile launcher. The latest "F" mag also recommends a buy of Russian SAMs,comparing the Akash system and its drawback in that the Rajendra radar has to be mounted on 3 vehicles.Tor M2KM SAMs have been mounted on a Tata chassis too.Anyway,a portfolio of Russian SAMs appear to have been offered.How they could be "made in India",or supplement our own systems developed is much food for thought. A good example of a JV is the Barak-8SAM,though delayed by a few years.The need though remains for a dedicated BMD defence of the Indian subcontinent.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_27581 » 11 Oct 2015 12:51

Paul wrote:One battery of S-400 placed around Ludhiana will render Sargodha AFB unflyable. It is 1/2 hr flying time so should be around 250 - 300 kn at most

And Amritsar? :D
Hope it gets done very soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 11 Oct 2015 13:12

What about one s400 battery for the andamans. Might cover the south China Sea :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kit » 11 Oct 2015 13:15

Reminded of the neighbours who had identical TV sets and remotes :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 11 Oct 2015 13:23



Rajat Sharma take with bagful of salt

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 11 Oct 2015 13:25

kit wrote:Reminded of the neighbours who had identical TV sets and remotes :rotfl:


If ever India buys S-400 we will customise it to be unique to Indian system may be also add many indian system there or integrate with Swordfish/GP radar not to mention TATA trucks etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2015 13:58

OTOH, this is a positive step from capability induction. Hopefully with it being in production for Russia and China, serviceability won't be an issue.
Hopefully it doesn't rule out indigenous capability building in the area. Otherwise we'll remain dependent on Russia. We need to follow the PRC example here.

And still don't get why we need 12 squadrons upfront. We should buy a couple, evaluate and then buy more - will show up how the systems perform in our conditions.

These are the real force multipliers of the S-400 system. We need some of these at least.

Optional acquisition radars cited for the S-400 include the 59N6 Protivnik GE and 67N6 Gamma DE in the L-band, but also the 1L119 Nebo SVU in the VHF band, and the multiband Nebo M. The Nebo SVU/M have a claimed capability against stealth aircraft. In addition to further acquisition radar types, the S-400 has been trialled with the Topaz Kolchuga M, KRTP-91 Tamara / Trash Can, and 85V6 Orion / Vega emitter locating systems, the aim being to engage emitting targets without emitting from the acquisition radars, or if the acquisition radars have been jammed. In June, 2008, the manufacturer disclosed the integration of the 1RL220VE, 1L222 and 86V6 Orion emitter locating systems with the S-400.


http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-400-Triumf.html

In particular the Nebo-M - multi-band surveillance for LO/VLO targets making this collosal money sink viable into the future.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low- ... TocId20356
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Nebo-SVU-Analysis.html

Also some TOT or offsets for spares should be built into the contract. Over time we can build our own radars and tech. But optimal availability is a must.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Austin » 11 Oct 2015 14:18

^^ I think we are better off inducting or developing our own system , DRDO mentioned we are developing long range SAM ~ 200 km range , then we have LRSAM 150 km range , AAD , PAD , PDV,AAD-1/2 for ABM needs under development and we have full control over its development and upgrade cycle.

Its better to fund our own development instead of buying any system abroad , This deal if gone through would be like the Apache deal when we have LCH ready and custom built for our needs.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rahul M » 11 Oct 2015 14:19

oh no ! not again !

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2015 14:22

kit wrote:what happened to the Green pine / Swordfish/ PAD etc ?!! :roll:


Dedicated for BMD purposes and as usual IAF seems to be looking for a system OTS. But on the plus side, S-400 is primarily for A/C and air breathing targets with a TBM function. It's not designed really for IRBMs and the like. Our BMD system is being purpose developed for that task.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2015 14:24

Austin wrote:^^ I think we are better off inducting or developing our own system , DRDO mentioned we are developing long range SAM ~ 200 km range , then we have LRSAM 150 km range , AAD , PAD , PDV,AAD-1/2 for ABM needs under development and we have full control over its development and upgrade cycle.

Its better to fund our own development instead of buying any system abroad , This deal if gone through would be like the Apache deal when we have LCH ready and custom built for our needs.


Its the IAF and we all know what they do and their line of thinking - "quick inductions OTS". Pointless debating this TBH. We should just hope for 3 things.
Proper contract for good serviceability with IAF spending on spares properly or using offsets well.
Full up system with Nebo-M
IAF and MOD have the common sense to progress local programs and fund them for the future too.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_28990 » 11 Oct 2015 14:53

The Nebo-M should come in handy while testing the AMCA. JMT.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby deejay » 11 Oct 2015 15:21

^^^ Honest question: Why do we need the latest - greatest S 400? Tomorrow, will we buy S 500 if they come up with one? Why is this not an "import" which needs desi substitutions?

Why do we need 400 kms range AD system? How is this different from Rafale?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Paul » 11 Oct 2015 15:29

I have a feeling one purpose of S400 purchase is cut the ground from IAF argument that it needs more 4++ gen fighters right away to combat Sino Pak fighter threat. The final outcome of this news, if it is true will the final nail in Rafale's coffin.

S400 deployment will buy crucial time for the MK2 and AMCA to be developed in the next 10-15 years.

Let us wait and see.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Paul » 11 Oct 2015 15:32

Also if the P-75I is going Scorpene Mk1 -> Mk1a way, there is no way Rafale+Scorpene (4Subs) + P75I will fall in France's kitty. Some thing has to give way.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Rahul M » 11 Oct 2015 15:36

they do have S-500.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jayasimha » 11 Oct 2015 16:05

Centre Puts DRDO Missile Tests on Hold

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 074072.ece

BALASORE: The tests of a couple of missiles developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) have been put on hold on administrative grounds.

If sources are to be believed, the scheduled tests of nuclear capable 4,000-km range ballistic missile Agni-IV and Advanced Air Defence (AAD), dubbed as ‘Ashwin’, have been deferred as the Centre is yet to give the green signal to Launch Authorisation Board (LAB).

As the last trial of Ashwin on April 6 had failed, the DRDO scientists were working on the mission meticulously to make it a grand success.

In fact, the DRDO had requested the State Government to impose marine fishing ban in a radius of 30 kms from the coast of Balasore, Bhadrak, Jagatsinghpur, Kendrapara and Puri districts from September 29 to October 1 for the proposed test from Integrated Test Range (ITR).

The ban on fishing, first of its kind in the history of any missile test, was imposed in strict adherence with the Coast Guard and State agencies launching an awareness drive among the fishermen.

While DRDO sources said the tests were deferred apprehending its impact on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s foreign tour, sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) informed that the PM wanted DRDO to complete the delayed projects first instead of going for repeated trials.

“Communication in this regard has been issued to the DRDO Chief after a review meeting on the performance. DRDO has about 535 ongoing research and development projects worth over `50,000 crore. But most of its projects, starting from the light combat aircraft (LCA) to air-to-air missile systems, are running years behind schedule with huge cost over-runs,” said an official.

The delayed projects include long range air-to-air Astra missile, advanced light weight Torpedo, dual colour missile approach warning system for fighter aircraft, air borne early warning and control system, aero engine Kaveri, Naval light combat aircraft project and long range surface-to-air missile.

Meanwhile, worried with the escalation of costs due to DRDO’s failure to complete the projects in time, Modi has asked all project in-charges to submit a monthly report. The Centre had recently separated the posts of DRDO Chief and Scientific Advisor (SA) to the Defence Minister. Earlier, the DRDO Chief used to hold three important portfolios - Director General of Research and Development (DG R&D), Secretary of Department of Defence Research and Development and the SA.

A Parliamentary Committee in its recent report had also criticised the work culture of DRDO while the armed forces, the users of DRDO developed products, had expressed dissatisfaction over the performance of equipment.

Contacted, an ITR official said the test teams from Bengaluru are camping here. “Though the dates have not been fixed, some missions are on the pipeline,” he said denying to divulge much on the proposed missions

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2015 16:19

>>If sources are to be believed, the scheduled tests of nuclear capable 4,000-km range ballistic missile Agni-IV and Advanced Air Defence (AAD), dubbed as ‘Ashwin’, have been deferred as the Centre is yet to give the green signal to Launch Authorisation Board (LAB). While DRDO sources said the tests were deferred apprehending its impact on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s foreign tour, sources in the Ministry of Defence (MoD) informed that the PM wanted DRDO to complete the delayed projects first instead of going for repeated trials.

I can't believe Modi would be this illogical and this is basically the Media as usual making hay.
So successful programs with different teams would be held up because other programs with different challenges are facing issues?
Trials for existing programs and getting them fixed have to be stopped?

What next. Varunastra delayed, so lets stop Nirbhay test fire?? LCA delay so lets stop test of new track for Arjun? :lol:
MOD sources?! If this is the quality of MOD personnel and if the journalist is speaking the truth, then Mr Parrikar has a good time ahead of him, fixing their brains.

In short, the foreign tour comment seems far more likely, especially for Agni. Modi/India need money, so this seems to be something we will have to live for a while. :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SSridhar » 11 Oct 2015 17:39

This news report about stopping DRDO missile tests appears completely dubious to me. There are various groups working on various projects and the pace at which projects get completed would differ for a thousand reasons. Repeated trials are also necessary and nobody in his right senses would stop trials. These trials are done with a purpose.

I do not even buy the 'foreign tour' comment. Agni-IV & AAD are not new projects that could be viewed as destabilizing or threatening. Modi travels extensively and if every time he travels DRDO stops testing, we will have massive backlog. Besides, I find no conflict of interest between India and the list of countries in his upcoming itinerary. He is scheduled to be in Turkey on November 15-16 for the G-20 summit. On November 21-22, he has the East Asia Summit and Asean-India summit in Malaysia. He is also likely to visit the UK, Palestine, Israel & Singapore in November.


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