Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Karthik S
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karthik S » 04 May 2017 22:13

Trial of Agni-II ballistic missile fails: Sources

NEW DELHI: A user-trial of the Agni-II intermediate range nuclear-capable ballistic missile by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) failed on Thursday.
Sources said the test-firing of the surface-to-surface Agni-II missile, which has a range over 2,000-km, from the Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast flopped within minutes of its launch at about 10.20 am. "The two-stage, solid-fuelled missile was just half a kilometre into its initial flight trajectory when things went awry. The mission had to be aborted," said a source.
The defence ministry and DRDO refused to comment on the unsuccessful test.
The Agni-I (700-km), Agni-II and Agni-III (3,000-km) missiles have already been inducted into the tri-Service SFC, which was created in 2003 to handle the country's nuclear arsenal. But it will take another couple of years to make the Agni-IV (4000-km) and Agni-V (over 5,000-km), which are specially meant for nuclear deterrence against China, fully operational.
India has tested its most ambitious Agni-V missile, which is in the class of an intercontinental ballistic missile, four times till now. While the first two tests in April 2012 and September 2013 were in "an open configuration", the missile was tested in its canister-version in January 2015 and December 2016.



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... s?from=mdr

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 04 May 2017 22:24

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... ovjbN.html

HT is reporting the same. Better find the faults now. Anyway A-II is nearly 2 decades old and should be replaced by canisterized A-4 soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 23:00

A few years back the AII had repeated flight test failures in Second stage flight.


On 19 May 2009, user trial of Agni-II was undertaken by Indian Army, while DRDO scientists provided required logistical support. The Agni-II missile was tested at 1006 hrs IST from a defence base in Orissa.[12] The missile was test fired from launch pad-4 from Integrated Test Range. Integrated Test Range is the missile testing facility on the Wheeler Island, near Dhamara in the district of Bhadrak. Initially it was announced by Indian media that India has successfully tested the nuclear capable Agni-II missile from a defence base in Orissa. According to official sources, the aim of the test was to give the Indian Army confidence to fire the missile on its own. The May 2009 test however ended in failure of the Agni II[13] when the second stage failed to operate correctly and the missile started to veer wildly off course. In a subsequent re-test at night time on Nov 2009,[14] the missile once again failed completely at the second stage, this time dropping directly into the sea. On 17 May 2010, the missile was flight-tested successfully from Wheeler Island off the Orissa coast. The flight lasted 660 seconds, with the missile achieving its full range, after which it splashed into the sea at the predesignated target.[15] A new navigation system which provides better accuracy as well as the capability, to manoeuvre and defeat anti-ballistic missiles was tested during the trial. This was a training trial by the Indian Army.[6] On 30 September 2011 another successful launch of Agni-II was conducted from Balasore, Orissa. The missile was fired from a rail mobile launcher and struck target 2000 km away within 10 minutes of launch, meeting all the performance parameters of the mission such as velocity, terminal phase, trajectory and destruction of the warhead.[16] Another test was done on 9 August 2012, when the missile was successfully launched from Orissa by the Strategic Forces Command as a part of a training exercise.

On Sunday, 7 April 2013, India again test fired Agni-2 ballistic missile with range of more than 2000 km, from Wheeler Island, Odisha at 10:20 AM. The test was carried out by the Strategic Forces Command of the Indian Army as part of training exercise with logistic support provided by the DRDO. The test was a complete success as per Mr. Prasad, the director of Integrated Test Range.[17]



Half a km into trajectory is very troubling. And indicates a new problem.
Guess we need better description of the issue.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Marten » 04 May 2017 23:06

I hope they arrest the source who specified the reason. Why would anyone want to disclose the time or distance of failure? Rajat is bent on proving himself a moron by not self censoring. Whoever ran the story should get a visit because it is irresponsible, keeping in mind this is SFC and not DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 23:12

In US such flight anomalies are classified once the forces have possession.
To stop this DRDO should not be involved in conducting tests post handover of missiles.
They can be brought into any subsequent investigations.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby malushahi » 04 May 2017 23:30

ramana wrote:Half a km into trajectory is very troubling. And indicates a new problem.
Guess we need better description of the issue.


cots components? drawing parallels here.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Marten » 04 May 2017 23:34

ramana wrote:In US such flight anomalies are classified once the forces have possession.
To stop this DRDO should not be involved in conducting tests post handover of missiles.
They can be brought into any subsequent investigations.

I'm not aware if SFC tests or user trials are covered under OSA. Imvho, they must.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gagan » 05 May 2017 00:18

Excellent work Shiv ji
Minor nitpick.
The missile is shorter, once the launch engine burns out and ejects. So maybe it is about 8 m, which might mean that the explosion is a good 70m high!

Any person at the receiving end of this will become fried chicken and quickly melt away and turn into ash !

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gagan » 05 May 2017 01:35

TOIlet reporting that the Agni-2 missile test 'failed'
The missile was only half a Km into its flight, when things went awry (Did it veer off course) and mission was aborted.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 05 May 2017 16:14

NAVAREA Warning out for a bunch of days.
May 8, May 9, May 11, May 12 and May 17.

Good to the see the Hydrobharat website back in action.

Any guess what manner of beastie is being tested :?:

NAVAREA VIII – WARNINGS IN FORCE AS ON 04 MAY 2017 ……………….

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DTG 031001Z/MAY
FROM NAVAREA VIII CO-ORDINATOR TO NAVAREA VIII – 371
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 INT 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL
FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED ON 08, 09, 11, 12 MAY 17 FROM ITR FROM 0430 - 0830 UTC IN
DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-22.01N 086-56.44E, 21-09.72N 086-50.76E, 20-52.38N 087-00.72E,
20-44.15N 087-07.59E, 20-37.44N 087-20.52E, 20-51.54N 087-45.93E, 21-20.70N 087-52.92E, 21-27.45N
087-38.07E, 21-29.96N 087-26.58E, 21-31.44N 087-12.66E
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 120930 UTC MAY17
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 05 May 2017 16:21

Gagan wrote:TOIlet reporting that the Agni-2 missile test 'failed'
The missile was only half a Km into its flight, when things went awry (Did it veer off course) and mission was aborted.


:cry: Sadly the launch was a failure. Rajat Pandit in Times of India:

"The two-stage, solid-fuelled missile was just half a kilometre into its initial flight trajectory when things went awry. The mission had to be aborted,"



From TOI at below web link.

Trial of Agni-II ballistic missile fails: Sources

Besides tThe Hindu confirms the Agni II launch failure:

Agni II test fire fails desired parameters

ANI via the New Indian Express also confirms the failed launch of Agni 2:

Test fire of Agni II missile fails to meet all desired parameters

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby malushahi » 05 May 2017 19:07

arun wrote:Any guess what manner of beastie is being tested :?:

NAVAREA VIII – WARNINGS IN FORCE AS ON 04 MAY 2017 ……………….

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DTG 031001Z/MAY
FROM NAVAREA VIII CO-ORDINATOR TO NAVAREA VIII – 371
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 INT 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL
FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED ON 08, 09, 11, 12 MAY 17 FROM ITR FROM 0430 - 0830 UTC IN
DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-22.01N 086-56.44E, 21-09.72N 086-50.76E, 20-52.38N 087-00.72E,
20-44.15N 087-07.59E, 20-37.44N 087-20.52E, 20-51.54N 087-45.93E, 21-20.70N 087-52.92E, 21-27.45N
087-38.07E, 21-29.96N 087-26.58E, 21-31.44N 087-12.66E
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 120930 UTC MAY17
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


pta activity most likely.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 05 May 2017 19:20

^^^ Thanks, though I think not likely. I say that as my observation is that when PTA's are involved the usual nomenclature used is BPTA while term "Experimental Flight" is reserved for ballistic/cruise missile tests.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby malushahi » 05 May 2017 19:41

something to learn everyday. thanks.

the area is far too wide for anything "straight-shot". one of the new air-breathers? unit test for timely wing-opening?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Ravi Karumanchiri » 05 May 2017 20:08

^^^^^^^^
Why is it reported and received as a "Failure", when this wasn't a missile drawn from deployed forces, but rather a test model fired from AJK Island test range?

DRDO is constantly trying out new materials and new constructions, in an attempt to shed weight. It would seem, in this latest test, they found-out that indeed, they can't trim as much weight as they had hoped, with that implementation of whatever change. As a result, the missile "failed"/exploded. But this isn't a "failure" in the same way that it would be if it were a user trial of a deployed missile (with warhead removed). Rather it is a "negative test result" that will provide lessons to build on.

Certainly, the ongoing development isn't only intended to design lighter, faster, heavier-lifting missiles; but also more easily-manufactured missiles with greater reliability, longer shelf life, durability, ruggedness, etc.

Who here can say if the missile was "brand new" manufactured; or if it had been toured cross-country for X-months, to see if it could withstand all that shaking and jarring?

The fact is: Nobody here knows what exactly they were testing, for what reason, and what they had in mind before they let the missile fly. Only by understanding these sorts of things, can anyone comment that the test was a failure.

Understand: I'm not being a Jingo on this count (especially since I'm not qualified, being that I'm Canadian). It's just that the rush to use the word "failure" isn't either informative, or terribly helpful on any score.

JMT.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vasu raya » 05 May 2017 20:16

so, composite stages are more vulnerable to lasers than say a metallic first stage? I think they were spending a considerable amount of time/effort on making the first stage all composite

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Supratik » 05 May 2017 20:42

This was an user trial. Maybe QC issues. However, repeated failures would suggest fundamental problems.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 06 May 2017 03:31

All the more reason to induct A4 and A5.
AII is first Gen and old by now.
Doesn't effect deterrence.
Good they have many options.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 06 May 2017 10:05

Only bit of *actual* footage from the BrahMos test this week in A&N Islands. (In video released, beginning & end were from earlier test.)

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/860495312112291841

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 06 May 2017 20:26

Image

Source: Pressto Products
Company Objective :

The sole objective of the company is to provide the custom fabricated products of impeccable quality by engaging advanced manufacturing techniques. The company is driven to deliver the goods on time without compromising on the precision and other quality concepts. We believe that a “Happy Customer is the objective of our Existence”.

Dummy Missiles, Pressure Pods, Testing jigs, Telescope Masts, Logging Winches & Cable Winches etc., for various applications are some of the products that we manufactured for our clients. We are very proud to say that today we are in top position of this industry by providing the best services to our clients, across India....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 06 May 2017 20:31

We need to find a nice name for this babe.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby AdityaM » 06 May 2017 20:36

name for the missile above? call her a Black Head

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 06 May 2017 20:45

srai wrote:NGARM
Image

Source: Pressto Products

Very similar to Astra AAM.

Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby kurup » 06 May 2017 21:17

arun wrote:NAVAREA Warning out for a bunch of days.
May 8, May 9, May 11, May 12 and May 17.

Good to the see the Hydrobharat website back in action.

Any guess what manner of beastie is being tested :?:

NAVAREA VIII – WARNINGS IN FORCE AS ON 04 MAY 2017 ……………….

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DTG 031001Z/MAY
FROM NAVAREA VIII CO-ORDINATOR TO NAVAREA VIII – 371
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 INT 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL
FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED ON 08, 09, 11, 12 MAY 17 FROM ITR FROM 0430 - 0830 UTC IN
DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-22.01N 086-56.44E, 21-09.72N 086-50.76E, 20-52.38N 087-00.72E,
20-44.15N 087-07.59E, 20-37.44N 087-20.52E, 20-51.54N 087-45.93E, 21-20.70N 087-52.92E, 21-27.45N
087-38.07E, 21-29.96N 087-26.58E, 21-31.44N 087-12.66E
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 120930 UTC MAY17
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Something within a 100 km range ........... Intersting shape of warning area .... never seen such a one .

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 06 May 2017 21:24

Maybe astra or akash tests vs target drones
Could be pinaka2 also

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Marten » 06 May 2017 21:41

Circular flight path, perhaps?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 06 May 2017 21:41

Yagnasri wrote:We need to find a nice name for this babe.

I suggest "Samosa' because ngarm is like "naya" and "garam"

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Yagnasri » 06 May 2017 21:50

What do you call needle in Sanskrit? Is the Radar is the eye, this missile in a needle in the eye of the enemy.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Bheeshma » 06 May 2017 22:05

Sure lets call it suchi :rotfl: or suchika, suchini :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 06 May 2017 22:53

This new missile must be atleast 4 meter long.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JTull » 06 May 2017 23:37

NGARM looks identical to Astra. If dimensions, weight distribution and aero-package are same then it shouldn't need to duplicate carriage or drop/cold-separation trials.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 06 May 2017 23:47

Hopefully it was not Astra itself incorrectly labeled NGRAM?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 07 May 2017 05:23

Indranil wrote:...

NGARM (details from various tenders):

Weight :600 kgs
Length :5150 mm
Dia : 315 mm
Wingspan : 957 mm (wings do fold)
Cool fact: NGARM team's punchline: Dare to emit.

Image

NGARM seems to match the above schematics.
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Prithwiraj » 07 May 2017 06:25

Do they build these dummy missiles for foundational design, wind-tunnel and aero-dynamics testing? I went to their site and saw pictures of quite a few Akash dummies....

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby arun » 07 May 2017 07:20

kurup wrote:........... Intersting shape of warning area .... never seen such a one .


You can say that again. Interesting and unseen :!:

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 07 May 2017 07:44

NGRAM seems improved version of KH-58. Might have a range of 300km+

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Marten » 07 May 2017 08:16

Some of the images on the pressto site are disturbing. The workshop is definitely not a dust free environment. They appear to be working with fiberglass dummies for fabricating launcher frames? The structures are already rusty and no pictures of treatment before painting... In one of the pics, you can see bhajjis next to the missile. :eek: Sorry to say, but this is classic Khadi Gram udyog. Machining and finishing could be better given some help and training. Even in Peenya, one could see better work done for local Indian firms.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 07 May 2017 08:40

Gyan wrote:NGRAM seems improved version of KH-58. Might have a range of 300km+


Probably similar ranges of 250km (or more). NGARM is slightly thinner but slightly longer. Weight is similar at 600kg. Some reports have stated that NGARM uses similar "bulky" Russian seeker as the one on Kh-58, and hence larger missile size.

The size of NGARM indicates there will be more variations of this missile: multi-purpose stand-off ASM and AShM. At 600kg (half the weight of Brahmos-M), even a LCA would be able to carry two to four of them. There could even be ground-based or naval ship-based variants.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby jamwal » 07 May 2017 10:47

Marten wrote:Some of the images on the pressto site are disturbing. The workshop is definitely not a dust free environment. They appear to be working with fiberglass dummies for fabricating launcher frames? The structures are already rusty and no pictures of treatment before painting... In one of the pics, you can see bhajjis next to the missile. :eek: Sorry to say, but this is classic Khadi Gram udyog. Machining and finishing could be better given some help and training. Even in Peenya, one could see better work done for local Indian firms.


This seems to a be a normal metal fabrication plant. I have been to a few like this including some which manufactured stuff for BHEL, BEL, some tanks, bmp components etc. Very few have clean rooms or tfta premises. Most of them are iso certified though.
Not justifying it, just saying what I have seen.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 07 May 2017 12:35

Looks like they make metal shells of various missiles and may be one of many sme given the job to build scale.
While not exactly tfta it must be ok if the integrators like bel bdl and rci are ok with their output.

Not everything needs electronic industry stds


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