Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2015 07:13

Singha wrote:in a ideal world a bunch of generic looking VL box launchers on trucks would house all our smaller SAMs like astra and network with the bigger ones like Akash and s400(if it comes). just like writing code that works generically, these uvls things are time consuming but worth the effort for future platform insertions.

cheen has already fielded at sea their version of naval uvls.


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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby andy B » 27 Dec 2015 12:24

Karan M wrote:So the TOR remains the only proper SAM system that can fire on the move. The Bradley/Stinger is more VSHORADS than SHORADS..
Of course being Russian, serviceability will be missing. Best we go for our own QRSAM based off of the Astra!


Karan Ji Bliss to See below. Impressive acceleration combined with the VL launch and mini bull snort tvc turning.

[youtube]WmzQZ2GrDjw&[/youtube]

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 27 Dec 2015 18:21

Why do we need to fire a SAM on move? What's the problem in stopping for 30 seconds and firing the missile ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2015 18:32

Andy, that's good stuff sure. Problem is whatever we buy from Russia lies rotting since we find it tough to get spares or some design flaw is there in some subsystem which needs fixing and Russians ask for more money.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby hanumadu » 27 Dec 2015 23:04

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 4m4 minutes ago New Delhi, Delhi
The Brahmos-I engine has to be indigenized.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby member_23370 » 28 Dec 2015 00:59

Good. Now how about Brahmos-M and hypersonic one ?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 28 Dec 2015 15:22

IT ppears that sev deals "in principle" have been cleaared,but like Rafale,cost is still a sticking point.These are multi-$B deals and every few millions saved matters a lot. There may also be a package deal/discount later on.However, with both Tata's and Reliance involved in tie-ups with Ru entities,one can be sure that these deals will be closed successfully.

I am confused over the numerous missiles/SAMs being mentioned.One can understand the S-400 as the principal ABM system,but with the Barak-8 LR SAM in the pipeline,being tested right now,where do the other systems fit in? Tor,Akash,Spyder,etc.,not to mention our very own Prithvi anti-missile system.Are we planning a multi-layered air def. missile system,with ABMs,LR SAMs,MR SAMs and SR SAMs? The IA will also want its mobile SAM batteries,both LR,and SR.IAF its air defence of air bases ,etcThe IN's course is quite clear.B-8s,Shtils B-1s, and perhaps a new SR/PD SAM with at least a 20km range. There was an Ru report which mentioned that the Vik-A CV already has an inbuilt provision for a SAM system.At the time of renovation/delivery,the IN did not want an Ru SAM system as it probably thought that B-8 would arrive on time.Whether B-8 or an Ru SAM system will be fitted during the Vik-A's refit next yr. is anyone's guess. The B-1 SAM system transferred from the Godavari is inadequate for our most important warship.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 28 Dec 2015 17:06

^^^

Based on the SAM purchases (or other talks), this is what it looks to be:

LLQR-SAM (quick reaction)
  • IAF - up to 9 squadrons (18 firing units) Spyder SAM
  • IA - Spyder SAM (?); 60+ Tunguska SP-AA and 200 Sosna-R
  • IN - (SR-SAM below)

SR-SAM (around 30km)
  • IAF - 15+ squadrons Akash SAM (as many as 30 squadrons total possible)
  • IA - 2+ regiments Akash SAM (another 4 regiment follow-on order possible)
  • IN - 20+ Maitri JV replacing Barak-1 [3 P-16A + 3 P-15 + 4 P-28 ... possibly 3 P-15A, 4 P15B, 2 AC]

MR-SAM (IN < 50km; IAF < 100km)
  • IAF - 9 squadrons Barak-8/ER JV
  • IA - Barak-8 (?)
  • IN - 12 systems SA-17 [6 Krivak III + 3 P-17 + 3 P-15]; (see LR-SAM below)

LR-SAM (IN > 50km; IAF > 100km)
  • IAF - 5 systems S-400 (offers some ABM capability along with SR-MR-LR SAM coverage through 4 missile types)
  • IA - N/A
  • IN - 16+ systems Barak-8/ER [3 P-15A + 4 P-15B + 7 P-17A + 2 AC]

ABM (against < 2000km BM)
  • IAF - Phase-1 PAD & AAD initial systems for Delhi & Mumbai
  • IA - N/A
  • IN - N/A

ABM (against < 5000km IRBM)
  • IAF - Phase-2 AD-1 & AD-2 (?) major cities and strategic areas
  • IA - N/A
  • IN - N/A

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Philip » 28 Dec 2015 18:28

Tx Srai for that comprehensive listing. However,how are we going to integrate such diverse systems into a combined holistic nation-wide air defence complex? It's going to be a huge challenge given the variety of missiles from both east and west.Are there any graphic models proposed that may be in the public domain?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 28 Dec 2015 21:20

^^^

BEL - INTEGRATED AIR COMMAND AND CONTROL SYSTEM (IACCS)
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Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) is an automated Air Defense command and control center for controlling and monitoring of Air Operations by Air Force. In network centric warfare era, RASP information is required to be made available at the appropriate level for taking tactical decision. These levels are strategic level (Air head Quarter),Operational level (Command Head quarter) and tactical level (Divisional level). The information sharing involves sharing of the information among navy, army and civil radar network also. The IACCS system receives data from different types of homogeneous/ heterogeneous radars (2-D or 3-D), reports from mobile observation posts and data from various other Air Force Airbases or Civilian agencies viz Air Traffic Control, Air Force Movement Liaison Unit etc. to create real time comprehensive recognized air situation picture (RASP) at IACCS Command & Control Centre (C & C Centre). The connectivity of sensors/agencies from/to the IACCS C&C Centre is connected on a wide area network based on IP protocol.

The system is meant to provide an appropriate solution to identify the track information in the Air. To produce a “Recognized Air Situation Picture” (RASP) by using the information received from different radars. To provide a perfect WA solution for enemy aircraft/missiles using different interception tactics (for Combat Air Patrol), Surface to Air-guided missiles (SAGW) missiles & Air Defence Artillery Gun (ADAG). To achieve automation in the Air-Defence hierarchy of “Indian Air Force”.

SALIENT FEATURES The system enables surveillance of national airspace for Air Traffic operations and overall airspace safety. The system features and capability are:- Adaptable to legacy systems High availability rate Open architecture and state of the art HMI Use of COTS product and modular/ Uses modular COTS product Upgradeability and expandability Situational awareness and Analysis Generation of Recognized, accurate, updated and complete real time Air Situation Picture (RASP) for local as well as centralized air space control and surveillance Threat Evaluation on the basis of Identification of track. Integration of various types of radars such as LLTR, MPR, Long Range Radar and adaptable to user legacy systems. System generated solution for Weapon assignment including SAGW (Surface to Air Guided Weapon viz missiles), GUNS and aircraft (Fighter aircraft interception control) Automation of tactical functionalities viz. Interception, Aircraft recovery, Threat evaluation, PAD (Passive Air Defense) warning etc. Automatic track Identification based upon flight plan and IFF data with manual override Interception solution & commands for defender aircraft against target. Flight Plan ingestion & collision resolution. Surveillance alert generation. Simulation of exercise environment through multi identity tracks. Dissemination of weapon control orders & other tactical commands to weapon units. Record & Replay of operator actions as well as ASP situations. Air Defense Resource Planning, management & deployment including radar coverage area analysis Post mission analysis Air tasking order processing


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Last edited by srai on 29 Dec 2015 04:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ShauryaT » 28 Dec 2015 22:20

Srai: Why not consider Barak 8-ER for the LR SAM needs of the IAF? Also, the above discounts any development of a MR/LR SAM development as a spin off of the Astra with a booster? I remain concerned on the overlap between the s-400 and our own BMD program.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 28 Dec 2015 23:16

ARDE has a project called New Family Munitions (NFM), under which it has been developing the Vibhav, Vishal, Ulka, Parth, and Prachand systems. Out of these Parth has reached the assembly stage.

ARDE has undertaken the development of 450 kg HSLD bomb with Griffin LG kit and Dual Fuze Arrangement from Jaguar and Su-30 MKIs (!!!!) aircrafts. It is a great document for people to know the flight envelop when the separation is safely possible from these two planes.

For the Jags, they are envisioning 2 drop tanks on the inboard pylons and 1 bomb on the center line pylon rear station.
For the Su-30s, they expect to carry 2 bombs on stations 5 & 6; or 1 bomb each at 5, 6, 3, 4, 1 & 2; or 1 bomb each at stations 1 &2 and LDP on Station 4.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2015 23:23

Great find! Wonder when we'll see these revealed (perhaps next AI?) and then details on trials, induction.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 29 Dec 2015 02:32

I dug around more. Guess what, we are revisiting the topic. You, me, Thakur_B and others had reported these a year back :-). These projects are to improve the existing munitions and enhance its performance and at various stages of testing!

Nipun: User-assisted technical trials complete. What is it? It means dexterous. Is this an improvement of the Daksh?
Vibhav: 15 sets of prototypes have been successfully trialed! What is it?
Vishal: What it is? Status unknown.
Prachand: Anti-tank mine which is at least at prototype fabrication phase.
Ulka: At least in fabrication stage. Don't know what it is. But it involves warheads in aluminium casings.
Parth: Reached fabrication stage. What is it?
Abha: What is it?

I have a feeling that one of these is a GP-bomb.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby srai » 29 Dec 2015 03:35

indranilroy wrote:ARDE has a project called New Family Munitions (NFM), under which it has been developing the Vibhav, Vishal, Ulka, Parth, and Prachand systems. Out of these Parth has reached the assembly stage.

ARDE has undertaken the development of 450 kg HSLD bomb with Griffin LG kit and Dual Fuze Arrangement from Jaguar and Su-30 MKIs (!!!!) aircrafts. It is a great document for people to know the flight envelop when the separation is safely possible from these two planes.

For the Jags, they are envisioning 2 drop tanks on the inboard pylons and 1 bomb on the center line pylon rear station.
For the Su-30s, they expect to carry 2 bombs on stations 5 & 6; or 1 bomb each at 5, 6, 3, 4, 1 & 2; or 1 bomb each at stations 1 &2 and LDP on Station 4.


That ARDE tender is a must read! Just shows how time consuming it is to integrate a new weapon into an aircraft is. For Jaguar and MKI, they have identified 108 cases for "Simulation Conditions for Aerodynamic Studies" (i.e. flight under various Mach and AoA combinations) and 46 cases for "Cases for Safe Separation Analysis" (i.e. releases from various altitudes, Mach and AoA for two adapter types). This will be followed by X-number of flight and release trials. Multi-year effort for sure.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby brar_w » 29 Dec 2015 04:27

ShauryaT wrote:Srai: Why not consider Barak 8-ER for the LR SAM needs of the IAF? Also, the above discounts any development of a MR/LR SAM development as a spin off of the Astra with a booster? I remain concerned on the overlap between the s-400 and our own BMD program.


Why do you think the former is not being thought off at the moment? As far as the MR/LR SAM and the S400 along with home grown BMD program is concerned, one must wait to see what systems are acquired with the S400. There are multiple interceptors on offer, some that Russia has deployed yet others that are either not in service or have not been seen in the wild. It could be entirely possible that the S400 elements procured make a lot of sense with the BMD system being designed in India on one side and the other SAM's at the other end.

Also, integrating command is a very welcomed step. It would provide high level of situational awareness, ability to command and control effectively and have a comprehensive tactical picture. However, it does not solve the issue of multiple SAM systems that while can make use of each other's aided common battle picture don't perform as one. That should be the ultimate direction and something that India can do at nearly the pace of the rest of the world. NATO has done it for their Ballistic missile defense assets, the US is testing it right down to the tactical level ( All short, medium and long range weapons to be brought to this standard eventually starting with the PAC-3 (demonstrated), PAC-3 MSE ( successfully tested), AMRAAM, SM6 (capability deployed), SM3 ( capability deployed), and whatever follows the PAC-2). India should move to this direction. For that they would need full control of the S400, and the ability to design interceptors for it, as well as have TOT on the existing systems. Another way to do is to issue a common architecture requirement and giving individual OEM's time to conform to those architectures. It won't be easy but the benefits would be that of a force multiplier.
Last edited by brar_w on 29 Dec 2015 18:50, edited 2 times in total.

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2015 04:59

Looks like a DRDO retirees consulting group.

http://idst.co/

Dig around.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby shiv » 29 Dec 2015 06:31

indranilroy wrote:I have a feeling that one of these is a GP-bomb.

A General Practitioner bomb? What would the others be? Internists, gynaecs, dermatologists etc? Health hazards all..

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2015 07:47

IR, the 450 kg HSLD looks like is the new standard General Purpose (GP) bomb.

We had a tender to evaluate effectiveness against concrete targets. Now separation trajectories for different carriers.

there was a 1000 kg bomb also mentioned. Something Grutma?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 29 Dec 2015 11:32

GP-bomb is ground penetrating bomb. They have been looking around for an electro-mechanical delay fuse for the same for some time now.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby SaiK » 29 Dec 2015 12:43

Can't they use the armor piercing fuse?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby JayS » 29 Dec 2015 15:51

ramana wrote:Looks like a DRDO retirees consulting group.

http://idst.co/



Correct. Dealt with them once.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Dec 2015 17:13

SaiK wrote:Can't they use the armor piercing fuse?


The new fuses tendered for are supposed to be capable to penetrate 1.5 m of rcc. Fwiw it should enable some anti armour capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 29 Dec 2015 17:46

Has any orders for Astra missiles been placed?

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 29 Dec 2015 18:00

TOR - ability to fire on the move and bull snort for quick direction change indicates its ready to go as a CIWS type naval missile. being VL we could put this on IN ships for a formidable replacement to the aeging Barak1

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby rakall » 29 Dec 2015 18:32

LRSAM test from INS Kolkata today/tomorrow - Navy PRO reports on twitter

https://twitter.com/CaptDKS/status/681820762974453761

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby BharadwajV » 29 Dec 2015 18:44

Livefist can confirm that the first test of the Indo-Israeli Long Range SAM (LR-SAM) was successfully conducted earlier this evening in the Arabian Sea between Mumbai and Goa. The second test will be conducted tomorrow morning between 8.30am till 11am. The LR-SAM was testfired last month from an Israel Navy corvette. Photos and videos of today's & tomorrow's tests shortly.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/12/breaking-lr-sam-successfully-tested.html

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ShauryaT » 29 Dec 2015 18:46

brar_w wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Srai: Why not consider Barak 8-ER for the LR SAM needs of the IAF? Also, the above discounts any development of a MR/LR SAM development as a spin off of the Astra with a booster? I remain concerned on the overlap between the s-400 and our own BMD program.


Why do you think the former is not being thought off at the moment?
Good, if they are being thought of, was just pointing to it not being included in the planning sheet SRai put together.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Gyan » 29 Dec 2015 20:36

Barak-8 has already got USD 3 Billion confirmed orders prior to any tests, and with no Real ToT, while our Nag languishes and no clarity on large scale orders for Astra.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Zynda » 29 Dec 2015 22:22

Does DRDO publish the winner of various tender for public consumption? Just curious to find out the names of companies which are being part of indigenous efforts.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2015 22:39

Singha wrote:TOR - ability to fire on the move and bull snort for quick direction change indicates its ready to go as a CIWS type naval missile. being VL we could put this on IN ships for a formidable replacement to the aeging Barak1


If Barak works and is serviceable with a high degree of availability, I'd say retain it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 29 Dec 2015 22:42

Zynda wrote:Does DRDO publish the winner of various tender for public consumption? Just curious to find out the names of companies which are being part of indigenous efforts.


AeSI/DRDO/CII periodically publish a huge list of firms involved in local defence programs. Intent is to publicize for offsets.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2015 23:58

SaiK, Bunker busting/ground penetrating bombs have fuze in aft/tail. Early on ARDE/DRDO had 2 fuzes for HSLD bombs and used to be listed on OFB pages. No longer could be issues and withdrawn

Aft/tail fuzes of UK vintage have basic time delay to allow penetration.

Modern fuzes are electronic and much more reliable and can defeat barrier defences.

If you look at HSLD nose it looks more like general purpose with emphasis on concrete barrier defeat. Maybe for runways and now being combined with Griffin for others.

I don't know how they are made casting or forging?

Latter is stronger case.

India now has large capacity forging presses and oil drill pipe mfg machines.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby vishvak » 30 Dec 2015 01:15

Gyan wrote:Barak-8 has already got USD 3 Billion confirmed orders prior to any tests, and with no Real ToT, while our Nag languishes and no clarity on large scale orders for Astra.

Looking at international naval thread, about USA testing laser already on a ship, I remembered a comment that some Indian missile (Akash?) is static etc. One can put the entire system - along with RADAR - on a ship and see how static a missile defense system could be, while dealing with such issues. Our missile systems need all encouragement and promises of bulk production too. Not that I discount testing, but how long will excellent missile will have to sit out before being in production.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Indranil » 30 Dec 2015 02:40

ramana wrote:SaiK, Bunker busting/ground penetrating bombs have fuze in aft/tail. Early on ARDE/DRDO had 2 fuzes for HSLD bombs and used to be listed on OFB pages. No longer could be issues and withdrawn

Aft/tail fuzes of UK vintage have basic time delay to allow penetration.

Modern fuzes are electronic and much more reliable and can defeat barrier defences.

If you look at HSLD nose it looks more like general purpose with emphasis on concrete barrier defeat. Maybe for runways and now being combined with Griffin for others.


They are still evaluating both the nose as well as the tail fuses. But you are right, they seem to be stabilizing around the HSLD design. They are going to the change the nose, tail assemblies etc. to get various uses.

I have a feeling that Vibhav is an air bursting grenade/round, but I can be wrong.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Shameek » 30 Dec 2015 03:03

ramana wrote:Looks like a DRDO retirees consulting group.

http://idst.co/

Dig around.


That is correct. My dad is part of the group. A lot of them were called back to work on projects that they were with when they retired.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Dec 2015 06:36

indranilroy wrote:ARDE has a project called New Family Munitions (NFM), under which it has been developing the Vibhav, Vishal, Ulka, Parth, and Prachand systems. Out of these Parth has reached the assembly stage.

ARDE has undertaken the development of 450 kg HSLD bomb with Griffin LG kit and Dual Fuze Arrangement from Jaguar and Su-30 MKIs (!!!!) aircrafts. It is a great document for people to know the flight envelop when the separation is safely possible from these two planes.

For the Jags, they are envisioning 2 drop tanks on the inboard pylons and 1 bomb on the center line pylon rear station.
For the Su-30s, they expect to carry 2 bombs on stations 5 & 6; or 1 bomb each at 5, 6, 3, 4, 1 & 2; or 1 bomb each at stations 1 &2 and LDP on Station 4.


On a related note:
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... icro=14883

Modification of 2 Su-30 Mki for integration of PGK500 (precision guidance kit 500 KG), INS-GPS guided kit on pylons 5,6,7,8. Would require provisions for data connections from the display and mission computers, integration of GPS antennas on the plane and routing of cables till the pylons and much more. The scope of work is pretty comprehensive.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Karan M » 30 Dec 2015 08:11

Why additional GPS antennas on the plane? Can't they take the feed from the main RLG/GPS-INS itself? The Sigma-95N? Curious.. wonder if this system uses IRNSS or GLONASS..and the existing MKI does not have it.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Singha » 30 Dec 2015 08:20

>> Would require provisions for data connections from the display and mission computers

does it mean todays GPS guided weapons are programmed on board by clicking on a location in the display piped from the optronic pod? I used to think they are programmed for static targets before the sortie.

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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Postby Sid » 30 Dec 2015 08:45

^^That was gen 1 JDAM. Since then coordinates can be fed before the release when GPS in initialized.

A very good read on JDAM.
http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-JDAMPt1.html


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