LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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enaiel
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby enaiel » 04 Feb 2016 04:26

From http://tarmak007.blogspot.fr/2016/01/tejas-may-fire-derby-python-missiles-in.html:
Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is likely to test-fire Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) Derby and Close Combat Missile (CCM) Python-5 (both from Israel) for the first time in Jamnagar.
...
The next firing is part of the FOC point that Tejas need to clear. We will be testing for the accuracy of the missiles this time. The captured data will be validated as per the FOC requirement,” says an official.


ramana wrote:
nirav wrote:+108 post, Khalsa ji.

Next milestone for the LCA is BVR firing in a couple weeks time.looking forward to it.


So what is expected here?
1) LCA can fire the BVR?
2) BVR goes and hits the target?
3) LCA (radar) locates target at x km and fires at y km and intercept happens at z km?

Cosmo_R
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 04 Feb 2016 04:32

tsarkar wrote:The posts made here reflect how forum members lacking operational knowledge post opinions based on their pet biases.

,,,


Thank you. Good insights. But BRF boyz will be boyz more interested in scoring online pointz.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Feb 2016 04:50

Cosmo_R wrote:
tsarkar wrote:The posts made here reflect how forum members lacking operational knowledge post opinions based on their pet biases.

,,,


Thank you. Good insights. But BRF boyz will be boyz more interested in scoring online pointz.

Unfortunately boyz who don't learn any better become journalists and reporters who report crap that the boyz of BRF will feed on.

Vivek K
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 04 Feb 2016 07:25

Tsarkarji respectfully I would like to state that it is the ex forces persons that bring their biases to BRF. That is why we see the Arjun sit out while billions are wasted on T90s. You tell us - is that true or false?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby suryag » 04 Feb 2016 07:46

Gurujan a dumb Q, can a underwing missile on either side of the aircraft be fired but not released from the pylon(obviously with the warhead deactivated) and aid instantaneous thrust needs when a fighter is escaping in a chase? I understand you might need to strengthen the pylons and/or strengthen the structure so that the wing doesn't tear away. This is similar to the rocket assisted takeoff concept.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 04 Feb 2016 07:54

Tejas at Bahrain - with my comments/titles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NRNCVQRJWs

enaiel
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby enaiel » 04 Feb 2016 09:16

So what's left for Tejas FOC? From an old link, with my comments inline:

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/12/what-itll-take-for-indias-tejas-to-be.html
1. Expand flight envelope to -3.5 to 8G (Currently -2 to 6G).
Done as per FB.
2. 24° angle of attack (Currently 22°).
Done as per FB.
3. In-flight refuelling capability (Integration of Cobham probe complete).
LSP-8 has been integrated with Cobham's IFR probe and is undergoing ground tests as per FB.
4. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Derby BVR air-to-air missile.
BVR missile firing to commence in Feb with LSP-7 as per FB.
5. Demonstration of Rafael ADS Python-5 IIR close combat missile (Related post here).
Probably same as above.
6. Completion of integration & demonstration of KBP Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 23mm cannon.
Removed from FOC and pushed back to Mk1A as per FB.
7. New design drop tanks for supersonic flight.
Is this done?
8. New radome to improve radar and electromagnetic performance.
Integration and ground tests with Cobham's Quartz radome have been completed as per FB. Flight tests to commence soon.
9. Validate more efficient cooling system for aircraft braking assembly.
Braking issues have been fixed as per FB.
10. Additional weapons testing, including PGMs.
1000 lbs mk11 unguided bombs, LGBs and PB500 successfully tested as per FB. CCM R-73 has been fired over a dozen times and has been guided by MMR/HMDS as per tarmak007.

I would add:

11. Permanent UC Fix.
Apparently SP-1 is not flying and SP-2 is delayed because of this fix as per FB. Since SP-2 is due to roll out in March, I would think this is done.

Did I miss anything? While reports say the BVR missile is Derby I am hoping it is Astra since Derby was only selected for NLCA.
Last edited by enaiel on 04 Feb 2016 22:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby prashanth » 04 Feb 2016 09:27

Shiv saar's video,

@ 1:49 :-o

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby JayS » 04 Feb 2016 09:49

shiv wrote:Tejas at Bahrain - with my comments/titles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NRNCVQRJWs


One doubt saar..the turn you designated as min R turn, isn't it the fastest turn (i.e. STR)?? The min R loop is the one immediately after the vertical loop, me think.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby maitya » 04 Feb 2016 10:49

shiv wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Thank you. Good insights. But BRF boyz will be boyz more interested in scoring online pointz.

Unfortunately boyz who don't learn any better become journalists and reporters who report crap that the boyz of BRF will feed on.

:) More unfortunately, menz (me included) who claims superior intelligence and maturity but can't discern between the pathetic web of Goebbelsian lies* that gets repeatedly spun around here, to defend the indefensible and rank-institutional-level-deceit spread over decades, tend to grow a fall sense of pride and a habit of passing gratuitous comments on these boyz to showcase such non-existent manhood qualities … no? :)


*Note: Doesn't include tsarkarji's post above, to which I agree with betw - people are simply jumping to conclusions too early without thinking thru the issue etc.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 04 Feb 2016 11:25

Vivek K wrote:Tsarkarji respectfully I would like to state that it is the ex forces persons that bring their biases to BRF. That is why we see the Arjun sit out while billions are wasted on T90s. You tell us - is that true or false?

Vivek K ji, please do indicate if I've expressed any inherent biases on BRF. I would be very happy to be corrected. I absolutely do not claim to know all.

All INS have creeping errors and require GPS correction from time to time :-)

Also, how does opinion expressed in an internet forum by anyone - retired or otherwise - impact either Arjun sitting or billions wasted on T90s?

No one fired Gp Capt Sunit Krishna. No one stopped him from flying the AEW&C. There was only a tussle regarding who'll be aircraft commander. It seems Gp Capt Sunit Krishna had issues with a junior pilot as aircraft commander.

Seniority is a major ego & pain issue in Government of India. But unless individual mindset is flexible and Government policy is clear, how will matters improve?

In our jobs, I'm sure many of us feel we can do a better job than our seniors. Yet how many of us will happily let a younger kid to take up our jobs?

Taking sides or making opinions in job politics is dicey. One does not know where the truth lies :-)

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby DexterM » 04 Feb 2016 13:02

Sir, I admit to a bias towards the lab folks, having known their work for a few years, and having known services folks who deal with them for more years.
Started off looking to blame someone for this issue, but realized after reading your well-reasoned posts that it made sense that both parties would have reason to be offended. Capability of either parties would never be in question here; nor their intent. However, the post above, outlining the reasons why such issues occur, is a sterling post. Well reasoned and balanced post. Thank you.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 04 Feb 2016 19:59

enaiel, What are 1000 lbs bombs MkII?

Does it mean HSLD or the old 1000 lbs MC (Medium Capacity)

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Zynda » 04 Feb 2016 20:29

Shiv,
I think the background audio is a little out of sync, especially during landing. Instead of low hum whining that is usually heard during approaches, we can hear loud roar of engine. Other than that, great work.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby enaiel » 04 Feb 2016 22:28

I believe the MK11 are vintage IAF dumb bombs.

ramana wrote:enaiel, What are 1000 lbs bombs MkII?

Does it mean HSLD or the old 1000 lbs MC (Medium Capacity)

shiv
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 05 Feb 2016 06:59

nileshjr wrote:
shiv wrote:Tejas at Bahrain - with my comments/titles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NRNCVQRJWs


One doubt saar..the turn you designated as min R turn, isn't it the fastest turn (i.e. STR)?? The min R loop is the one immediately after the vertical loop, me think.

:D Yeah you're right! Too late for me to change that now..
My favourite bit is rolls followed by an "S" manoeuvre starting here. That S is impressively vigorous.
https://youtu.be/2NRNCVQRJWs?t=189

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 05 Feb 2016 08:34

ramana wrote:enaiel, What are 1000 lbs bombs MkII?

Does it mean HSLD or the old 1000 lbs MC (Medium Capacity)


Its MK 11N. But I guess we commonly just call it 1000 lb bomb.

1. 1000 lbs MK11N and LCA dropping it (2009)
Different tail unit used on this bomb during test with LCA.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... b.jpg.html
Image

Image

2. LCA with PB500, with griffin LGB kit (2014?)
Image

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 05 Feb 2016 08:46

Sid, thanks.
So all std ordnance available to IAF has or is being tested.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 05 Feb 2016 08:56

Yup, except unguided rocket pod. IAF does not seem to use any rocket pods on Su 30 MKI either.

During earlier air-shows rocket pods were advertised as part of its weapon package. Maybe IAF do-not intend to use LCA in CAS role.
Image

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 05 Feb 2016 13:50

^^

Much of the original Soviet & French weapons for Tejas as seen in the photo have been junked. Would've needlessly added development time & effort.

Initially CAS was gun strafing, then light bombs with more firepower effects came into play with the Hurricane bombers used by IAF in Burma, and finally rockets, that had better accuracy than bombs, and did not require the aircraft to overfly the target.

The gun made a comeback with A-10 & MiG-27 Gatling guns but it exposed aircraft to AA fire.

The bomb made a comeback with guidance & glide kits and took the aircraft out of MANPADS range. The US SDB with glide kits has sounded the death knell of A-10.

Tejas will do CAS with both guided & unguided bombs that can be cued by Litening rangefinder.

Rockets in IAF are obsolete. The Soviet S-5, S-8 & S-13 rockets should be phased out with the MiG-21 & MiG-27. The Harrier and Jaguar used SNEB 68 mm rockets & pods, but I've hardly seen them recently.

Rockets too will make a comeback into IAF with guidance kits. Someday.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Feb 2016 14:06

tsarkar - am i right in thinking that rockets are most effective against convoys and trains? for most other targets a big bomb works better? especially with guidance? also, with the advent of cheaper or perhaps not so cheap but far more accurate strike missiles, the unguided rocket is far less useful than it once was?

also the type of warfare we engage in now has far fewer day time targets that look like convoys and trains?

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 05 Feb 2016 14:09

rohitvats wrote:These arguments here are typical of using instances of bygone era and stereotyping every development.
It's guilty unless proven innocent!


Unfortunately, given the pronouncements of many IAF sorts (rtd ones and serving ones supposedly speaking through the media) plus the actions of gents like M2, it will take time to state conclusively that the bygone era is truly bygone. As it will be to state that HAL is now fully onboard the LCA program and will support it, as versus treating it like a 2nd grade program while the licensed production takes precedence!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 05 Feb 2016 14:32

Lalmohan wrote:tsarkar - am i right in thinking that rockets are most effective against convoys and trains? for most other targets a big bomb works better? especially with guidance? also, with the advent of cheaper or perhaps not so cheap but far more accurate strike missiles, the unguided rocket is far less useful than it once was?

also the type of warfare we engage in now has far fewer day time targets that look like convoys and trains?


Rockets have moved on to helos. CAS is mostly done by combat helos nowadays as they can better use terrain to their advantage. With 6km MANPDS in abundance, old school gun and rocket starfing from fighters are a lot less feasible.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 05 Feb 2016 14:48

Srai, until and unless we stock up en masse on PGMs of all sorts our platform purchases can only do so much! IMHO, hopefully that is the biggest focus at DRDO now as versus the Agnis and strategic programs. We have reached some maturity there but the crying need is to help the forces with their conventional items.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SKrishna » 05 Feb 2016 15:03

Derby fired successfully.

Ananthakrishnan M breaking on twitter



Edited to correct typo

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_28990 » 05 Feb 2016 15:34

Derby BVR missile fired successfully by LSP 7.

One more step complete!!!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 05 Feb 2016 16:34

LCA Mark-1 only has 20 aircraft order which is not dependent on FOC. While the next proposed 106 aircraft order is for Mark-1A which will have a new radar, hence it will require a lot of qualifications, like firing of BVR missile, again.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby KBDagha » 05 Feb 2016 16:47

As per Tarmak - It was #Tejas LSP-7's 169th flight. Derby was fired in BNG mode. Ballistic Non Guided mode.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 05 Feb 2016 16:53

That is just a release test. The real test is when it is mated with Radar, HMCS, guidance link etc.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2016 17:34

It is a LOBL missile with active seeker.. so release test is good enough for jingos

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Sid » 05 Feb 2016 18:03

That's how they tested R-73 too, first one was in BNG mode. Waiting LCA shooting down a supersonic aerial target.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Feb 2016 18:07

^ yes...all I want too see is pics with tejas loaded to the gills...8 AAMS like those of the mki with 12 77s

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2016 18:16

and another shot loaded with either brimstone or nag racks atleast on one side.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SanjibGhosh » 05 Feb 2016 21:39

Tejas fires Derby missile in Jamnagar


http://www.oneindia.com/india/tejas-fir ... 04665.html

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_27581 » 05 Feb 2016 22:13

Victor Hugo said "No power on Earth can stop an idea, whose time has come". I think time of LCA has already come or not very far away. Suddenly we see things working out fine one after another. With NM/MP at helm, I see the pieces falling in place slowly and steadily with LCA.

Hopefully,
1. Production issues are sorted out before they become sore
2. End of LCA as a program will result in start of AMCA and not two separate programs.
3. In next conflict Su-LCA combo will give a big big sledgehammer style jhappad to all those who have been needling us for very very long

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2016 22:17

we have to remember, DRDO did not deliver A5 from A4 without testing A5 features in A4 platforms in stages

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby member_29151 » 05 Feb 2016 22:20

ranjan.rao wrote:Victor Hugo said "No power on Earth can stop an idea, whose time has come". I think time of LCA has already come or not very far away. Suddenly we see things working out fine one after another. With NM/MP at helm, I see the pieces falling in place slowly and steadily with LCA.

Hopefully,
1. Production issues are sorted out before they become sore
2. End of LCA as a program will result in start of AMCA and not two separate programs.
3. In next conflict Su-LCA combo will give a big big sledgehammer style jhappad to all those who have been needling us for very very long

Finally fruits of long hard work paying off.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Viv S » 05 Feb 2016 22:43

SanjibGhosh wrote:Tejas fires Derby missile in Jamnagar


http://www.oneindia.com/india/tejas-fir ... 04665.html


As reported earlier, the current trials are aimed at validating the accuracy of the missile. Apart from Python and Derby, Tejas has in weapon menu Russian-made CCM R-73, laser-guided bombs (LGB) Griffin and Paveway and Russian-made gun Gsh-23.


Apparently the gun trials haven't been deferred to the Mk1A.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 05 Feb 2016 22:54

I firmly believe (FWIW the opinions of some mango man count) that we should constantly develop the LCA further. More fuel, more aero changes, own the platform and make a few 100 of the type to bulk up the fleet with an Indian fighter we can constantly improve.
If the IAF has a few hundred of a fighter as versatile as the LCA and as inexpensive, it can load them up with advanced weapons and sensors with the money saved, and they can be a huge huge force by themselves. We need a Mk2 LCA in AF with more fuel & reduced RCS, a Mk3 with even more fuel/further LO/more payload etc.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Kartik » 06 Feb 2016 00:14

^+1


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