LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 07 Mar 2016 22:49

Found one amateur video of Tejas on youtube. perhaps from AI 2015?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Iol6wonvfk

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 07 Mar 2016 23:27

habal wrote:IAF: Welcome to Fighter Zoo

sheer genius of our planning.

In any case they don't really intend to fight anybody, so it's all ok.

The Egyptians are giving us a run for the money

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... y_aircraft

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Mar 2016 03:21

Hmm
The egyptians have a pretttty good airforce...

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 09 Mar 2016 05:09

CosMo_R

do you mean they are giving us a run for our money by over complicating their inventory (just like us) or you mean they could match us ?
They seem to be ordering everyhting under the sun

F16,
Raffy
and now Mig-35/29M3

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 09 Mar 2016 08:54

Some of it is free, sorry, a lot of it is free AND can be the only matching donation. Some of it is a loan, from saudis or russians. None of it will actually ever be useful. Mistrals will rust just like the 16s. The ejjyptians well know theirs wont match up to the ijjralis, but having them keeps the riffraff quiet

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2016 15:49

fantastic. thank you AKM.

Taking a fighter to sea, ship deck different ball game: Maolankar Cmde Maolankar was the guest speaker during the National Science Day celebrations at...

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... s-1.918177

disha · Post by **disha** » 10 Mar 2016 07:19

Many years back., I had asked for a separate NLCA thread. Just that a naval air craft is a different beast and requires a different discussion. Now Commodore Maolankar says the same thing in the above article., that it is a different mindset altogether.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Mar 2016 09:52

Why don't you start on NLCA with AKM article as first post?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 10 Mar 2016 12:05

Tejas to fire US, Israeli missiles at IAF show

News report with errors

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 10 Mar 2016 19:43

IAF say do not have enough crafts to take on Chinis and Bakis simultaneously. So.........may be it is time to bring it out in open.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Mar 2016 06:01

Didn't realize there were couple of videos from different angles taken at Bahrain Airshow (BIAS 2016)!

First video

Second video - shot from different angle on different day/flight

Inside cockpit video

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Mar 2016 11:19

HAL begins integration of mid-air-refueling probe on Tejas

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Mar 2016 11:31

As 31st March draws closer, HAL seems to have shifted the target of next SP2-SP-4 LCA to Dec 2016. I think HAL is determined not to roll out anymore LCA till Rafail deal is signed.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Mar 2016 11:49

So 2nd mk squadron is nkw mk1a.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 12 Mar 2016 13:00

First of all, great pichhars this time.

May be better if they were not so posed, or worse if these are not posed! Photos dont show probe fitting. They show probing, but lord knows for what. Also, THAT is the assembly line folks, take a good look.

Also:
>>extremely complex integration of the aerial refueling probe -- says who? when it was claimed plumbing pre-existed and pressure fueling was routine? Noted in the paragraph right next to it too. Bolting on the last millimeters is now extremely complex? Because if it is, then better move it to mkII.

>>It is extremely remarkable (yes, really, to an outsider that is remarkable) that the CMD/CEO is commenting about taking off the fuel cap and putting fuel in the tank.

It was said last year, 4 frames will take part in the pillow fist. And only in service craft go to the fist. Now it is 2, and they are lsp? Why not the SP1 even?

It would appear bahrain happened. Now pillow fighting. Actual testing? In peak summer, like right around the rainy season.

Also, this airframe looks like its a year or so from taking off. No rush folks.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Mar 2016 15:56

^ o fixing a refueling probe is latching on with a few screw drivers ? From when has it been so easy.Also once the probe is fit in place the fuel delviery system has to be integrated and synced with the existing fuel lines etc isn't it ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2016 17:56

They seem to be taking a slow and hyper cautious approach in all matters. They should push things and complete this activity by autumn this year.

When a plane refuels the system pumps around fuel to balance the CG. Hot refueling on ground is already proven so that system works. Thd probe being Cobham is proven. Same must be on Jaguar and mirages

They can push things fast given the base

disha · Post by **disha** » 12 Mar 2016 19:24

ramana wrote:Why don't you start on NLCA with AKM article as first post?

Will do. Was busy with paapi pet ka sawaal issues.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 12 Mar 2016 21:29

prasannasimha wrote:^ o fixing a refueling probe is latching on with a few screw drivers ? From when has it been so easy.Also once the probe is fit in place the fuel delviery system has to be integrated and synced with the existing fuel lines etc isn't it ?

What is more difficult than "extremely" <<complex>> ??

Extremelier complexified?? Because those would be the fuel line arrangement.

More compleified than that? Extremely Chextremely Complexiwumpulex?? That would be pressure fueling through said fuel lines.

.......
.......

What is tiny compared to the machine? This whole air refueling mechanism. Which would make the whole machine extremely hyper sooper dooper loopity ippity complexUmplexWomplex.

Thats too much in a few months work. Even saying it. Lets leave it for Mk2A for armie.

It isnt supposed to be easy, and thats not an excuse even if it were or werent. The CEO of any company knows kjack sh×t about minor aspects of one of the many type of products from one of the many many divisions and complexes. But the CEO does know how to hold timelines.

Here the reverse is true. Everything has moved down another year. Its been nearly 5 years since I argued service in numbers. Frankly, given both sides are looking at the platform as a money making device AND the services and manufacturing as a show activity may be thats not the right idea anymore.

The time for the LCA may have come and gone. Excuses will be here to stay for any and all future products.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Mar 2016 21:59

HAL was given funds to set up production line for producing 8 LCA per annum in 2001 but they did not start / hardly did any work on setting up production line till 2014. Hence production rate of One LCA per annum. I think it will take atleast HAL upto 2020 to reach 8 LCA per annum.

Note:- Almost all machines on production line are generic and would have handled minor changes in LCA but inspite of being given funds and mandate HAL has done practically nothing for 15 years.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Mar 2016 22:22

Kakarat wrote:HAL begins integration of mid-air-refueling probe on Tejas

The photos in the article doesn't seems to be of LSP-8 but may be one of the SP's.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 13 Mar 2016 00:52

What I don't understand is why they didn't make all these structural modifications etc to the plane in all these months that theu were waiting for the Chobham probe to arrive?

The FOC, which Parrikar had strictly told ADA/ HAL to finish by end of 2015, was first pushed to March 2016, and will now be pushed to next year.

At this rate, even a well-wisher like me, is giving up hope that the LCA will ever be built in numbers.

I am beginning to think that large-scale imports are inevitable. On the cheap end of the scale it can be the F-16 or the Mig-29/35.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 13 Mar 2016 06:57

So how do you prepare everything without having the actual specs of the probe. Remember even Cobham had difficulty manufacturing the probe and could not make the probe as per requested specs. This is all a part of teething problems. Yes there us a delay but fact is this is a learning experience too lest one forgets.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 13 Mar 2016 07:06

Kakkaji wrote:What I don't understand is why they didn't make all these structural modifications etc to the plane in all these months that theu were waiting for the Chobham probe to arrive?

The FOC, which Parrikar had strictly told ADA/ HAL to finish by end of 2015, was first pushed to March 2016, and will now be pushed to next year.

At this rate, even a well-wisher like me, is giving up hope that the LCA will ever be built in numbers. I am beginning to think that large-scale imports are inevitable. On the cheap end of the scale it can be the F-16 or the Mig-29/35.

It is important to note the last portion of the article:

HAL says from the first Tejas MKI-A aircraft onwards (21st fighter in the series production plans), all platforms will be fitted with the air-to-air refueling probe.

However, if the IAF wishes, then it could enter into a separate contract with HAL, to retro-fit even the first 20 series production variants with these probes, says an official.

This means that the first 20 production variants aren't going to have the fuel probe - so their construction is not going to be impeded by fuel probe integration and testing delays.

member_29245 · Post by **member_29245** » 13 Mar 2016 10:17

nirav wrote:Max planned rate for now is 16/year. That too will take a year or two to hit full capacity.
Unless there is another private sector line, the numbers above are not possible.

But where are the confirmed orders justifying the third assembly line ?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 13 Mar 2016 11:36

if any one can please clarify for the following

If i check the Gripen approach towards in flight refuelling

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ripen.html

A key element for Gripen on the export market is the introduction of an air-to-air refueling capability, developed jointly by Saab, British Aerospace and Flight Refueling Ltd. The first stage in providing this capability was the design, manufacture and clearance for flight testing of a mock-up probe to establish the viability of the design.
These first trials, with the mock-up probe, were designed to determine the behavior of the tanker''s drogue in the vicinity of the probe and the handling qualities of the Gripen aircraft.
The trials also confirmed the expected behavior of the aircraft''s flight control system. Further work will now take place to optimize the Gripen''s air-to-air refueling system for inclusion on export aircraft. Export Gripen director, Tony Arksey described the trials as an important development in the Gripen program. "The success of the trials are important not just for the aircraft but for the combined Saab and BAe multi-discipline team that has managed these trials and the joint venture as a whole. "The success of these first air-to-air refueling
trials has underlined Gripen''s excellent handling qualities at all speeds and altitudes and confirmed the suitability of the aircraft''s flight control system for such operations," he said.

Has ADA/HAL done the test using mock-up probe as detailed above

Second, if i understand correctly, OBOGS should complement in-flight refueling system, has ADA/HAL started work in parallel for this for 1A or everything to be done sequentially.

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Mar 2016 15:14

^^^

Efforts are done in parallel. There are some 12 PVs and LSPs airframe to work with for integrating IFR, Quartz radome, SPJ, etc.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 13 Mar 2016 15:46

^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes i know but it still does not clarify my query as to what kind of preparation has been done for a actual in flight refueling testing like the one with dummy pod etc done for Gripen

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 13 Mar 2016 16:13

SP1 during preflight checkup

✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈ ‏@writetake 10h10 hours ago
Here's the #Tejas SP-1 captured at one of the #HALfacilities undergoing routine checks ahead of its flight.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Mar 2016 16:37

dhiraj wrote:
A key element for Gripen on the export market is the introduction of an air-to-air refueling capability, developed jointly by Saab, British Aerospace and Flight Refueling Ltd. The first stage in providing this capability was the design, manufacture and clearance for flight testing of a mock-up probe to establish the viability of the design.
These first trials, with the mock-up probe, were designed to determine the behavior of the tanker''s drogue in the vicinity of the probe and the handling qualities of the Gripen aircraft.
The trials also confirmed the expected behavior of the aircraft''s flight control system. Further work will now take place to optimize the Gripen''s air-to-air refueling system for inclusion on export aircraft. Export Gripen director, Tony Arksey described the trials as an important development in the Gripen program. "The success of the trials are important not just for the aircraft but for the combined Saab and BAe multi-discipline team that has managed these trials and the joint venture as a whole. "The success of these first air-to-air refueling
trials has underlined Gripen''s excellent handling qualities at all speeds and altitudes and confirmed the suitability of the aircraft''s flight control system for such operations," he said.
Has ADA/HAL done the test using mock-up probe as detailed above

Second, if i understand correctly, OBOGS should complement in-flight refueling system, has ADA/HAL started work in parallel for this for 1A or everything to be done sequentially.

To me this Sweden news sounds like they had no plan to have an AAR probe on the Gripen export version and now want it for the after the plane has been in service for many years. In fact Gripen A and B had no flight refuelling. That means the AAR probe was an afterthought. For LCA the AAR probe was always planned right from the beginning. It is likely that wind tunnel tests were done and the internal modifications required were already planned and in place. So there is no question of first fixing a dummy probe, then seeing if it works as they are doing with Gripen. It is likely that they will simply do the plumbing and fixing of probe and then check the flying characteristics and modify the software as required. The other thing is that the internal plumbing is needed anyway. It is a waste of time simply to fix a dummy probe when the whole works can be done in one go.

I don't know of any connection between OBOGS and AAR probe. Please say if you know any such connection.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 13 Mar 2016 16:56

Khalsa wrote:CosMo_R

do you mean they are giving us a run for our money by over complicating their inventory (just like us) or you mean they could match us ?
They seem to be ordering everyhting under the sun

F16,
Raffy
and now Mig-35/29M3

Exactly. But at least they move quickly.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Mar 2016 16:58

with 6 refuelers in total who is going to refuel the tejas?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Mar 2016 17:01

prasannasimha wrote:SP1 during preflight checkup

✈Anantha Krishnan M ✈ ‏@writetake 10h10 hours ago
Here's the #Tejas SP-1 captured at one of the #HALfacilities undergoing routine checks ahead of its flight.

What beautiful lines. HAL now needs to get that SP2 out before 31st Mar. "Please! Great One, let them not slip up on time lines for once"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Mar 2016 17:31

they have still not picked up on the deliberate posing and lighting used for photos of western assembly plants... the flaps should up for a smoother look
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/thumbnai ... jpg&size=a

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Mar 2016 18:52

dhiraj wrote:^^^^^^^^^^^^
yes i know but it still does not clarify my query as to what kind of preparation has been done for a actual in flight refueling testing like the one with dummy pod etc done for Gripen

Any new mod to LCA airframe undergoes extensive design studies using CAD and CFD along with wind tunnel on scale models. Other things that would take place like FBW changes, LRU testing and iron bird rig validation. Also, a huge amount of time goes into planning out the test points for studies as well as what needs to be validated during flight tests. Contingencies need to be planned for. Production need to be thought out as well. That's the modern approach being used on the LCA unlike the rudimentary approach you are pointing out on Gripen.

From news reports, internal plumbing on an airframe has been (or is being) done to accommodate fuel from IFR and as part of that integration effort pressure-fueling and hot-fueling have also been proven. Cobham IFR probe is being fitted out on LSP-8 as per design studies and that would be followed by a series of flight qualification/validation tests and data analyzed and iterate if issues are discovered. Finally, certification.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 13 Mar 2016 19:21

dhiraj wrote:Second, if i understand correctly, OBOGS should complement in-flight refueling system, has ADA/HAL started work in parallel for this for 1A or everything to be done sequentially.

Dhiraj sir, I am not sure if you meant development or integration of the OBOGS, but here's a data point:
INDIGENOUS ON‐BOARD OXYGEN GENERATING SYSTEM (OBOGS) BASED INTEGRATED LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEM (ILSS) FOR TEJAS LIGHT COMBAT AIRCRAFT - DRDO press release Dated 29 Dec 2014

So the system has been ready for a while, and some testing must have happened, I'd expect.

shiv wrote:For LCA the AAR probe was always planned right from the beginning. It is likely that wind tunnel tests were done and the internal modifications required were already planned and in place. So there is no question of first fixing a dummy probe, then seeing if it works as they are doing with Gripen. It is likely that they will simply do the plumbing and fixing of probe and then check the flying characteristics and modify the software as required. The other thing is that the internal plumbing is needed anyway.

Shiv sir, you probably know this, but posting a ref just in case. There was a brief discussion in the previous reincarnation of this thread where, based on the LCA cutaway diagram, we reached a conclusion that the Tejas has been internally plumbed for IFR and just needed the bolt on probe. So your bolded statement is what I expect to happen.

shiv wrote:I don't know of any connection between OBOGS and AAR probe. Please say if you know any such connection.

I think dhiraj sir meant that since IFR/AAR will enable the Tejas to fly for longer duration or distances, OBOGS will be needed for the pilot. I am not aware of a technical link between the two either.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Mar 2016 20:23

arshyam wrote: Shiv sir, you probably know this, but posting a ref just in case. There was a brief discussion in the previous reincarnation of this thread where, based on the LCA cutaway diagram, we reached a conclusion that the Tejas has been internally plumbed for IFR and just needed the bolt on probe. So your bolded statement is what I expect to happen.

In fact that photo posted by AK shows, inside the open panel on the right side a pipe that looks like the plumbing to which the IFR probe will be attached. I have an Aero India 1998 image of an LCA mock up with an IFR probe

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Mar 2016 20:29

Various images of LCA with IFR:

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Mar 2016 20:45

The images compared below shows that the pipe I was seeing is in a different position. AK's photo shows and oval closed panel where the IFR probe is firxed in the other pic. The lower pic with the IFR probe shows and open trapezoid shaped panel that seems to be marked in the upper, AK pic

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 13 Mar 2016 21:59

So until the new Aar deal goes through, I guess mkis will be the refuellers.

Btw, has foc been postponed till December???