AbhiJ wrote:It implies these places have experience with mass production in many industries with the capable human resource. It was just a military cliche.
And yet, you are not able to provide the list of substantial key contributors to any program with the scale of the LCA. You are spouting meaningless inanities as versus hard facts. "Military cliche" it seems.
What is this mud slinging at "old suppliers" based on what data exactly?
Old suppliers would include the HAL legacy suppliers who are in the same boat wrt "mass production"
And what do you know of "mass production" or lack thereof of existing HAL suppliers? Meaningless since HALs suppliers are supplying per MOD expenditure.
What is this being suspicious of them when SMEs and world class firms are supplying to HAL and you are making all sorts of wild insinuations about them.
I have never decredited their efforts, their products. Stop putting words in my mouth. The question is ekdam simple: can these firms scale up? My doubt regarding them is what the same I have with HAL.
You are making all sorts of wild allegations about them being unable to scale up, your issues with HAL etc - and are unable to provide ANY substantive evidence. I don;t have to put words in your mouth, since you are doing a smash up job of making wild allegations without an iota of evidence to back up any of it.
Implying Pune has requisite aviation facilities etc when the fact is not even ONE core LCA program design center is at Pune bar ARDE which has a limited contribution to LCA.
Again you are blowing the trumpet. Production, final integration and testing of systems and subsystems is different from R&D. Let R&D be there in South. No issues.
Listen, please stop gassing. Nobody is blowing the trumpet but you, with this fixation on one city. Its as silly as saying DRDO should move ARDE from Pune or R&DE programs from Pune to suppliers in Chennai, because.. well Chennai. Or R&DE should move to Bangalore.. well, Bangalore.
Do you even understand that divorcing the "Production, final integration and testing of systems and subsystems" of programs like the LCA from R&D is NOT good?
Its making the same mistakes all over again.
Its the same reason why if ARDE is in Pune and if a supplier or manufacturer is in Pune itself, then its
better than moving the production to Bangalore. Its a good thing to have ARDEs suppliers from Pune.
Do you get this?
Why not move the LCA to Chennai for example? Why should R&D be in south and production move far away for a product that is still in development and needs tight integration with R&D.
Why not Hyderabad? DRDO's missile cluster is there. Still far away but not too far from Bangalore.
Why not any other city?
If production has to be far far away?
Why not any city in Gujarat? Mucho power, big name firms.
Simultaneously berating HAL and then holding HAL Nashik up as an example doesn't work. Its a logic fail.
I am proposing for a new production line in Pune. Whatever is required for the above has to be created there for LCA. HAL Koraput already exists there. So it shouldn't be much of a problem. Its not like we are starting out in Mizoram or Kashmir where there is no A,B,C of aviation.
Dude are you for real or are you posting while intoxicated?
Koraput is in Odisha!
Parochialism is one thing, but when you start cooking up theories to discredit existing areas of excellence to support it, it gets ridiculous.
Its based on industrial history of the area. Has HAL Bangalore ever undertaken mass production of its own aircraft at such scale before? Again, I am saying I have doubt only on the ability of HAL and suppliers to scale it up at their existing locations. PERIOD of PERIOD. Whatever else your mind cooks up: discrediting, non-appreciating, anti-south, narrow mindedness is all lahori logic.
Your logic is mind boggling. In fact, only lahori logic guys would appreciate yours.
"Industrial history of the area". What do you know of the industrial history of the area? Show us the detailed assessment of any of these areas with available prior awareness of aero grade programs and their availability in number.
Are you aware of the "industrial history of HAL"?
How many Jaguars do you think HAL has produced down south? How many Jaguars are in IAF service? Search.
Where is the Hawk being assembled? What about the ALH? Or LCH? Search.
Listen, you clearly know little about HAL or HAL's suppliers.. so insisting on creating two lines when only 100 MK1A and some 20-40 are on order and even that, will require reinforcement for viability with the LCA-N, is absurd.
HAL at Bangalore has been making Jaguar, overhauling Mirage 2000, making LCH/ALH. Su-30 critical suppliers are based in the Bangalore industrial area and its all important avionics including the radar are being assembled at Hyderabad. Korwa does the other items.
Even actuators, which are the key part of hydraulic systems are being made by a Karnataka based firm.
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Let them transport over to Pune.
Why? Its cheaper to transport them to Bangalore, test & fix.
So in short, you don't know about the design and development of the LCA and who does what. You can't figure out the advantages of colocation (hint: world over industrial clusters succeed when developers and producers have maximum synergy and for initial development, colocation helps)
Let me ask you once again. Isn't the first line is in Bangalore right in bed with the design and development team?
Your requirement is satisfied. I have no doubt about you in the above areas. You are correct.
What about next? What about mass production? What about scaling up? You don't espouse confidence in that!
Where are the orders to scale up???
Why would you replicate a line which is as expensive and time consuming as the LCAs is outside of its core area of expertise in some other area which is already assigned for other programs?
You insist that LCA needs to be moved someplace else because of BLR being service based (absolute rubbish - the south clusters BLR and HYD lead in aerospace development and maturity)
I am not asking LCA to be moved. I am saying you cannot mass produce it. You can make 8 LCA. You can make 16(doubtful). But you cannot make 25-30-40. For this, I am advocating a new line.
Who says HAL cannot make 25-30-40 if it was funded to do so?? Where is the evidence? You are just cooking up stuff out of thin air based on some airy fairy claims.
If HAL has orders it will scale up. If not, it won't.
HAL, You are right now making many platforms but in limited production (about 60 per year spread across 5+ products), nothing which come near mass production when we are talking about 500 numbers.
Again, all sorts of make believe stuff. HAL is doing what it does based on orders and capex. Nothing more, nothing less.
You imply that Su-30 suppliers are only from Pune-Mumbai etc whereas critical ones are actually in the South.
South suppliers, Export to Pune from your existing facility in south or if you face issues like HAL, open a new line in Pune. Let your existing line serve Bangalore complex. What's so complicated in that? If the numbers are there, we have a business case for you to set up a new line.
Where are the numbers? Where are your Pune based suppliers or system integrators?? Who in Pune has offered to set up for the LCA and invest in it?
Do you think aerospace is some joke wherein you just magically wave your fingers and suppliers emerge?
HAL has had a tough time even getting existing suppliers & for a good reason, most of them happen to be in the areas where the technology cluster is strongest and precision manufacturing has taken off - BLR-HYD-Chennai.
Firms have been tapped from all across India as well.
Pune et al are developing but will require some time to get there.
At least do some basic digging into the topic before making grandiloquent pronoucements??
Enough said.
Yup, but why are you still going on then about a topic you clearly are just timepassing about?
