LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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SaiK
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I am proposing KL & WB. :twisted:
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

saumitra_j wrote:Make LCA in Pune and make Pawar/Kalmadi richer...no way :twisted:

Jokes apart AbhiJ ...you better stop this line of thinking Pune companies in the auto sector have zero experience in manufacturing aerospace grade components...unless you think the Indica or Bajaj Pulsar flies :rotfl:

This entire argument of shift this here etc is better not done...it is derailing the thread as it is downright silly, parochial and based on some weird thinking that Pune can mass produce better as if there are some Djinns in Pune to do that ...and before Pune starts dreaming of LCA and other fancy things, let it first get its public transport/bus service right :evil:
Any idea of how many Su30 suppliers are from Pune-Nashik area? I suspect majority of those are also India wide (probably even south based)..? Aero suppliers are very hard to certify and finalize.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by member_26011 »

Jokes apart AbhiJ ...you better stop this line of thinking Pune companies in the auto sector have zero experience in manufacturing aerospace grade components...unless you think the Indica or Bajaj Pulsar flies :rotfl:
OT, sorry: [youtube]https://youtu.be/rs8oqYU0YT0[/youtube]
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

Karan M wrote:And yet, you are not able to provide the list of substantial key contributors to any program with the scale of the LCA. You are spouting meaningless inanities as versus hard facts. "Military cliche" it seems.

And what do you know of "mass production" or lack thereof of existing HAL suppliers? Meaningless since HALs suppliers are supplying per MOD expenditure.
I see here http://www.hal-india.com/Products/M__54 HAL has 10 products listed in its catalogue. 5 aircrafts + trainers and 5 helicopters which have their own supply chain. Firangi Maal depending upon offset requirements would have mostly outside India supply chain with some local mixed depending on our capability to localize.

HAL suppliers are only able to supply as much is HAL producing today i.e. averaging 60 aircrafts and helicopters every year.

So, NONE of the existing HAL suppliers are mass producing any systems just like HAL. 60 units over 10 products give or take.
You are making all sorts of wild allegations about them being unable to scale up, your issues with HAL etc - and are unable to provide ANY substantive evidence. I don;t have to put words in your mouth, since you are doing a smash up job of making wild allegations without an iota of evidence to back up any of it.
Read above.

Listen, please stop gassing. Nobody is blowing the trumpet but you, with this fixation on one city. Its as silly as saying DRDO should move ARDE from Pune or R&DE programs from Pune to suppliers in Chennai, because.. well Chennai. Or R&DE should move to Bangalore.. well, Bangalore.

Do you even understand that divorcing the "Production, final integration and testing of systems and subsystems" of programs like the LCA from R&D is NOT good?

Its making the same mistakes all over again.
Let me go in the flow again to let you understand in what context the statement was made.

Just go to Page 74:
Mort Walker wrote:What the HDR photo does show is that the sheet metal work on the LCA is top notch. Better than most other fighter aircraft. Thanks indranilroy.
Need at least 1000 LCA to be produced over the next 5 years.
srai wrote:^^^

If quick number of squadrons formation is desired, then some possibilities would be to form an under-strength squadron, such as 8/squadron or 12/squadron. That way @25/year production rates 2 to 3 squadrons could be erected with the intent of that those would be fully staffed in the subsequent years.
Tejas jet fighter catches Sri Lanka, Egypt attention.
vaibhav_kumar wrote:Can any of the gurus please comment on the production timelines for an LCA i.e. a guess by the current schedule how long the SPs are in jigs, how long for final shipping and assembly etc. I know at this stage the figures would vary a lot from what they would be a couple of years down the line but any estimates could clear the cloud as to how many LCAs could be expected in the coming years.
The above discussion prompted me to have my opinion on that.
Its the same reason why if ARDE is in Pune and if a supplier or manufacturer is in Pune itself, then its better than moving the production to Bangalore. Its a good thing to have ARDEs suppliers from Pune.
If ARDE supplier and ARDE itself cannot scale up, starting a new line in any industrialized area of the country is a very logical step.
Do you get this?

Why not move the LCA to Chennai for example? Why should R&D be in south and production move far away for a product that is still in development and needs tight integration with R&D.
HAL Banaglore could serve till the limited production phase and finl induction of one squadron happens. If we are talking 500 aircrafts - i.e. mass production, then Boss you have to have a new line. It will spread aviation manufacturing industry also.
Koraput is in Odisha!
I had read Su 30 MKI engine work is done there, I had assumed it would be near Nashik. So HAL is stretched out in North, West, East and South.
Your logic is mind boggling. In fact, only lahori logic guys would appreciate yours.

"Industrial history of the area". What do you know of the industrial history of the area? Show us the detailed assessment of any of these areas with available prior awareness of aero grade programs and their availability in number.
As shiv has said, HAL Nashik was established to separate the Soviets from the Western aircrafts.

Now let me ask you, lets go back to 1960 and why was Nashik chosen not Darbhanga, not Wasseypur, not Jamshedpur.

All the above 4 had no aviation industry, no suppliers, ample amount of land. Why was Nashik chosen?

There has to be some logic. The simple logic is it was near an area that was the most industrialized part of this side of the world and still it is today!
Are you aware of the "industrial history of HAL"?

How many Jaguars do you think HAL has produced down south? How many Jaguars are in IAF service? Search.
Where is the Hawk being assembled? What about the ALH? Or LCH? Search.
60 new per year thats what HAL makes.
Listen, you clearly know little about HAL or HAL's suppliers.. so insisting on creating two lines when only 100 MK1A and some 20-40 are on order and even that, will require reinforcement for viability with the LCA-N, is absurd.
I have no issues till today. Let HAL manufacture it in Bangalore. When we scale up, that is the basis of my argument and you are needlessly baiting the bush justifying the existing structure for todays scenario which is never disputed in the first place.
HAL at Bangalore has been making Jaguar, overhauling Mirage 2000, making LCH/ALH. Su-30 critical suppliers are based in the Bangalore industrial area and its all important avionics including the radar are being assembled at Hyderabad. Korwa does the other items.
Even actuators, which are the key part of hydraulic systems are being made by a Karnataka based firm.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8Ydfos7xAPw/U ... ndor-1.jpg
http://www.servocontrolsindia.com/about
Good.
Why? Its cheaper to transport them to Bangalore, test & fix.
When I said Pune, it means the Bombay-Nashik-Pune triangle. It somehow got into Bangalore vs Pune, Soouth vs non-South.
Let me ask you once again. Isn't the first line is in Bangalore right in bed with the design and development team?

Your requirement is satisfied. I have no doubt about you in the above areas. You are correct.

What about next? What about mass production? What about scaling up? You don't espouse confidence in that!
Where are the orders to scale up???

Why would you replicate a line which is as expensive and time consuming as the LCAs is outside of its core area of expertise in some other area which is already assigned for other programs?
Who says HAL cannot make 25-30-40 if it was funded to do so?? Where is the evidence? You are just cooking up stuff out of thin air based on some airy fairy claims.

If HAL has orders it will scale up. If not, it won't.
I said HAL Bangalore will not be able to do it.

HAL has no history of mass manufacturing its own aircraft.

First LCA Squadron ordered - July, 2011

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/175 ... t-lca.html
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has begun the process of establishing the first light combat aircraft (LCA) squadron — Tejas — and is getting help from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).
http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/milestones.html
2015
17th January - IAF gets first indigenously-built Light Combat Aircraft Tejas - The LCA Tejas Series Production-1 (SP1) was handed over by Defence Minister Mr. Manohar Parrikar to Indian Air Force Chief Air Marshal Arup Raha in Bengaluru on Saturday.
4 years?

HAL Bangalore is having difficulty raising the production level.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/with-two ... ly-1391301

1st Partial Squadron formed in July 2016!
HAL, You are right now making many platforms but in limited production (about 60 per year spread across 5+ products), nothing which come near mass production when we are talking about 500 numbers.
Again, all sorts of make believe stuff. HAL is doing what it does based on orders and capex. Nothing more, nothing less.
Where are the numbers? Where are your Pune based suppliers or system integrators?? Who in Pune has offered to set up for the LCA and invest in it?

Do you think aerospace is some joke wherein you just magically wave your fingers and suppliers emerge?

HAL has had a tough time even getting existing suppliers & for a good reason, most of them happen to be in the areas where the technology cluster is strongest and precision manufacturing has taken off - BLR-HYD-Chennai.

Firms have been tapped from all across India as well.

Pune et al are developing but will require some time to get there.
I have covered up the above queries.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

Karan M wrote: The same firms are supporting mass production of other programs, whereas you have come up with ZERO evidence that they can't if funded.

Make wild allegations, provide the evidence.

Stating wild allegations and claiming they are clarifications, is not sufficient
If we intend to mass produce 40 LCAs per year, that is mass production. While HAL right now does 60. Thats a leap of 60%.

The discussion regarding whether Pune triangle is equipped or is capable to mass produce is secondary to the fact that HAL Bangalore has no history of mass production of its own platform in numbers which are envisaged here in the discussion. Alternatively, as you suggested it could also got to TATAs in Hyderabad. That is also valid, say instead of Pune triangle. Historical evidence suggests that HAL Nashik was also made on the same logic i.e. it was near a place which knows what is mass-industrialization. They did not reject it merely on the grounds of non-existence of aerospace industry or any suppplier. Bangalore is not upto that mark in industrialization. We cannot trust Bangalore with mass production of a critical product like a military fighter craft in absence of any history to suggest the same.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by member_28108 »

AbhiJ I think you do not know but Bangalore has a large aerospace Industry complex and there is a lot of manufacturing for eg of Airbus , Dassault and other companies right here in Bangalore (not just the IT part but also manufacturing of verious parts. A whole aerospace park just like electronic city is coming up in a cluster around the BIAL airport. Plane development and refinement has been going on for years here in Bangalore. So you really have no idea of what is actually going on. Where do you think Satellites (space part of aerospace) are built. Where do you think satellite propulsion and other space related technology is built ? LPSC Bangalore deals with all of that. There is a lot of companies doing aerospace work and testing in Bangalore which you may not be aware of.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

prasannasimha wrote:AbhiJ I think you do not know but Bangalore has a large aerospace Industry complex and there is a lot of manufacturing for eg of Airbus , Dassault and other companies right here in Bangalore (not just the IT part but also manufacturing of verious parts. A whole aerospace park just like electronic city is coming up in a cluster around the BIAL airport. Plane development and refinement has been going on for years here in Bangalore. So you really have no idea of what is actually going on. Where do you think Satellites (space part of aerospace) are built. Where do you think satellite propulsion and other space related technology is built ? LPSC Bangalore deals with all of that. There is a lot of companies doing aerospace work and testing in Bangalore which you may not be aware of.
Sir

Bangalore does all the R&D, it makes everything top tech we have in the nation, no disputes.

That is not the point. Does Bangalore mass manufacture anything in the aviation industry. Keyword Mass.

If it did then I wouldn't have had any doubt on it when it comes to mass manufacture LCA (we are talking 30-40 per year)
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by member_28108 »

Again the answer is Yes there are a lot of parts manufacturers. What I am talking is actual parts manufacturing. Think where Airbus doors are manufactured ? Do you know there is a whole composite manufacturing industry available in bangaloreThere is a whole aerospace complex and an aerospace manufacturing park is coming up near BIAL apart from existing industry. You are just not aware of it.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by deejay »

Vipul wrote:^^^^

Deejayji - You should know better then to trust the 'plans' of a PSU when it says it will be doing something. Now how many times have i heard/read this before?

Shivji, No I am not having a bad day just a realistic day. Couple of years from now both of us will be here on BRF when those plans of HAL to churn out 24 Tejas will still be ..... plans.
I understand your concern. I was actually talking of reports of work happening on ground. Apologies for not being clear.

I have a very good view of HAL airport on a daily basis (almost!). A lot of construction work right near the LCA assembly hangars with new hangars etc coming up already. Some work on airfield south side (totally new area) happening with construction material being piled up within last fortnight.

Also, while driving on the Wind Tunnel Road, I was taken aback by the sheer number of trailer trucks entering the HAL airport. I don't know what they were carrying but it was unusually heavy traffic.

The LCA division is the one I suspect to be the beneficiary of all this. I am impressed with the speed of work that has been going on. PSU or not. HAL is what we have and finally till some major breakthrough happens, we will need to be trust our guys. A private sector Assembly Line may seem attractive but any contract to a private player (L&T or Tatas or Mahindras etc) will take at least 03/04 years for the plant to get going given that it will be their first experience in setting up Aircraft Manufacturing.

Plus LCA is high end stuff. The private sector folks have not even done integration of basic piston engine 02 seaters. Integrating supply chain, setting up quality control, testing labs, identifying and developing an airfield, production TPs and set up, licensing, CEMILAC certification for manufacturers etc will take a lot of time. Finally, where will they get their trained manpower from? Given current eco system, mostly that manpower is with HAL. My guess is they will poach. Which means HAL, which will have some stabilized production in a few months will also get hit.

If you ask me LCA (4.5 Gen fighter) is the wrong place to start for private sector. I was hoping HAL would be ready to give up the IP on HTT 40 and IJT for private sector to start aircraft manufacturing. LUH they are already not in a mood since they have set up a plant in Tumkur.

Maybe the assembly lines can be a 50:50 (or 60:40 or...) venture between HAL and the pvt player where HAL could handle the transfer of not just manufacturing expertise but other Institutional knowledge.

Any start today, will see results 03/04 yrs down the line. Hence, it is best to presently focus and concentrate on how best HAL can ramp up.

On a side note, 02 days ago, I had my first visual of the HTT 40 parked next to a Jaguar. She wasn't as small in comparison as I had expected. Good to see the bird finally. :)
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by saumitra_j »

Any idea of how many Su30 suppliers are from Pune-Nashik area? I suspect majority of those are also India wide (probably even south based)..? Aero suppliers are very hard to certify and finalize.
Karan, Dynamatic Technologies has been producing air frame parts for the Su 30 since 2010 - here's the link but beyond that, the overall aerospace ecosystem is fairly bare at least at this point in time. I know that my cousin is working on getting one Pune based vendor so that they get space qualified and supply parts to ISRO for its satellites but that is more an exception. Around Pune, there are small units providing parts for the Pinac rockets - hardened electronics and all that but beyond that, there are not too many aerospace grade suppliers. AbhiJ is simply underestimating the time required to create this kind of ecosystem - as Shiv has said, Bangalore and around is simply decades ahead and even if we think of a second line for LCA, it will take a decade to build the ecosystem. While the Su30s have been built at Nasik, we forget that initially it was CKD/SKD kits before we started producing components locally.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

AbhiJ wrote:
That is not the point. Does Bangalore mass manufacture anything in the aviation industry. Keyword Mass.

If it did then I wouldn't have had any doubt on it when it comes to mass manufacture LCA (we are talking 30-40 per year)
Not sure what "mass manufacture" means in the aircraft industry. In the list below I have left out some minor aircraft which may total another 200 or so, but HAL Bangalore has produced - in approximately 60 years the following aircraft
  • Cheetah 275
    Chetak 350
    Jaguar 120
    Hawk 90
    Marut 147
    HJT 16 Kiran 190
    Gnat/Ajeet 200+ (280?)
    HT 2 – 169
    HPT 32 -142
    Krishak 68
    Vampire 100(?)
    Dhruv 200 (Wiki)
That works out to about 34 aircraft a year for the last 60 years - probably a bit higher if I include the ones I left out like Pushpak, Basant and a couple of others

Maruti makes one car every 12 seconds
Tata motors sold 1000 vehicles a day - one every 84 seconds
Diesel loco works Varanasi produces 250 locomotives a year - less than HAL Bangalore aircraft production

At what rate of production does aircraft manufacture become "mass manufacture"
Airbus A-320 which is being mass manufactured, produce 50 aircraft a month
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

That is a mistake. It amounts to 34 per year on app. basis.

Irrespective of everything else, HAL has never manufactured a single platform with its own supply chain (firangi doesn't count here) in such quantities as we desire (25 to 40 per year).

shiv Saar,

Every jigno says 120 aircrafts ordered by IAF which itself is upscaled from 40 order is considered peanuts and injustice to this platform.

By using this very as base, I would say 40 is mass manufacturing. We shouldn't be counting this 8 or 16 per annum as mass manufacturing.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

AbhiJ wrote: We shouldn't be counting this 8 or 16 per annum as mass manufacturing.
Agreed but mass manufacturing is for mass orders.

Airbus has 4500 odd planes on order. How many Tejas planned? At 50 a month Airbus will take 7 years to deliver. At 50 a month 200 Tejas will be delivered in 4 months. then what?

The other question is what will the IAF do with 200 Tejas delivered in 4 months if HAL produced at Airbus A 320 rate, And who will pay the private vendors and subcontractors to put up the infrastructure to produce sub assemblies for Tejas for 50 aircraft a month? And what will they do with all that infrastructure and tooling after 4 months?
Last edited by shiv on 24 Apr 2016 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Arunkumar »

SaiK wrote:I am proposing KL & WB. :twisted:
Trivandrum with its VSSC, LPSC , brahmos, TERLS and other ancillary industries could have been nurtured into one aerospace hub. kasargod has HAL avionics division. There is one Titanium factory somewhere in the state. One aerospace company (acques???) in ORR also has its office in trivandrum. If some one can invest in a large forging plant there the place can put up a competition to bangalore / hyderabad.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Here is a Wikileaks document from 2012 about Gripen sales
i will post only the relevant stuff

The Gripen fighter is used by the following governments: Sweden (204 aircraft), South Africa (26), Hungary (14), Czech Republic (14), and Thailand (6).

Sweden ordered the first Gripen fighters in 1983, with its first fighter produced in 1993. They were originally developed to provide fighters for Swede
1993 to 2012 - 264 aircraft - 14 aircraft a year.

Is this mass production?
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

Eurofighter:

1st production aircraft 2002
2016 - 470 in service

33 aircraft a year for Eurofighter. Is that mass production?
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

HAL Bangalore has produced 34 aircraft a year for 60 years
Gripen rate has been 14 fighters a year for decades
Eurofighter has produced 33 a year in 12 years from multiple sites in Europe
Who is doing mass production? Who is sitting on his ass?
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by srai »

^^^
Rafale is at 11/year.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

shiv wrote:
AbhiJ wrote: We shouldn't be counting this 8 or 16 per annum as mass manufacturing.
Agreed but mass manufacturing is for mass orders.

Airbus has 4500 odd planes on order. How many Tejas planned? At 50 a month Airbus will take 7 years to deliver. At 50 a month 200 Tejas will be delivered in 4 months. then what?

The other question is what will the IAF do with 200 Tejas delivered in 4 months if HAL produced at Airbus A 320 rate, And who will pay the private vendors and subcontractors to put up the infrastructure to produce sub assemblies for Tejas for 50 aircraft a month? And what will they do with all that infrastructure and tooling after 4 months?
What would you do with delivering Tejas in 4 months?

Why cherrypick any plane?

The capacity is built on basis of the potential orders and also how long does the country feel is worth making the plane?

LCA in 2020............Ok
LCA in 2025.............Ok
LCA in 2030.............Ok
LCA in 2035..................Maybe its outdated today, technology changed, we have AMCA which can be mass manufactured at SRDE cost. So Stop.

It also depends on the urgency of the requirements if someday like IAF we are caught with out pants down to fulfill the shortage of squadrons, then we have to increase the number of aircraft produced initially per year.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 031_1.html
Parrikar's decisive move cuts a Gordian knot that has bedevilled Tejas production. For years Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), the agency that will mass-produce the Tejas, has resisted increasing production-line capacity, because the IAF has only committed to buying 40 fighters. In a chicken-and-egg situation, the IAF cites HAL's slow production rate as the reason for not ordering more Tejas.

The result: In the past two years, HAL has built just one Tejas. Meanwhile, the IAF responds to its dwindling fighter numbers - now only 34 squadrons - with demands for quickly buying large numbers of the Dassault Rafale from France.

Parrikar calculates that, with an order for 100 Tejas in hand, HAL will have the business case for quickly boosting production to at least 16 fighters per year.
According to the Hon'ble Defence Minister, 16*6 = 96, it would take 6 years i.e. by 2023 to complete IAF's order.With this rate if we were to induct say 400 more aircrafts (giving the justice it deserves), it would take another 24 years i.e. we will be producing LCA till 2047!
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

shiv wrote:HAL Bangalore has produced 34 aircraft a year for 60 years
Gripen rate has been 14 fighters a year for decades
Eurofighter has produced 33 a year in 12 years from multiple sites in Europe
Who is doing mass production? Who is sitting on his ass?
http://www.vista-industrial.com/blog/pr ... roduction/

According to the above link, production is divided in 3 stages for a small product, let's connect it in LCA scenario:

Prototype:
This stage may also be known as product or part development. This is when your part or product is in its infancy stage. It is recommended that you work with a design house or engineer to help develop the product correctly to save money in the long run by having it designed and engineered right the first time. This stage of manufacturing is for the purpose of testing out the design to see if it is feasible or if changes need to be made before going into production.

Many times prototype quantities range from 1 to 100 depending on the company and product.

We have between 10 to 20?

Production: This stage may also be known as batch production. This is when your part or product is in its introduction and growth stages. Once prototypes have been validated for the design as far as fit, form, function, cosmetics, and a demand has been established, production is the next stage. This stage of manufacturing consists of batches of parts that range from 50 to the hundreds (sometimes thousands) and usually performed in batches.

Let's be relative to our scenario. An order of 40 or 100 is batch production?


Mass Production: This stage may also be known as repetitive flow production. This is when your part or product has reached its highest potential growth and is in the growth and mature stages. Once production has reached a point where the demand for the part or product is consistent and has reached quantities in the thousands, your product is ready for mass production.

400-500 is mass production in our case?
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by srai »

AbhiJ wrote:http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 031_1.html
Parrikar's decisive move cuts a Gordian knot that has bedevilled Tejas production. For years Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), the agency that will mass-produce the Tejas, has resisted increasing production-line capacity, because the IAF has only committed to buying 40 fighters. In a chicken-and-egg situation, the IAF cites HAL's slow production rate as the reason for not ordering more Tejas.

The result: In the past two years, HAL has built just one Tejas. Meanwhile, the IAF responds to its dwindling fighter numbers - now only 34 squadrons - with demands for quickly buying large numbers of the Dassault Rafale from France.

Parrikar calculates that, with an order for 100 Tejas in hand, HAL will have the business case for quickly boosting production to at least 16 fighters per year.
According to the Hon'ble Defence Minister, 16*6 = 96, it would take 6 years i.e. by 2023 to complete IAF's order.With this rate if we were to induct say 400 more aircrafts (giving the justice it deserves), it would take another 24 years i.e. we will be producing LCA till 2047!
I don't know what kind of logic you are trying to use to justify your case, but if an order for 400 are made then there would be a "business case" for HAL to increase production capacity too. It won't be just 16/year at that point. Common sense.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by AbhiJ »

srai wrote: I don't know what kind of logic you are trying to use to justify your case, but if an order for 400 are made then there would be a "business case" for HAL to increase production capacity too. It won't be just 16/year at that point. Common sense.
So you agree that current order of 100 is not mass production?
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by kit »

I wont touch Kerala for any sensitive stuff esp defense related ..heck even the Brahmos manufacturing unit has been dumbed down to making components .. a particular party's penchant for strikes almost every other week and power scarcity .. the police hand in glove with foreign elements ( read Nambi Narayan episode) ..
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by srai »

AbhiJ,

You are just grasping at straws to make your case for Pune area aerospace hub since you think Bangalore area is not capable. Move on.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

AbhiJ wrote:I have covered up the above queries.
Actually you have not. You are completely confused and making all sorts of claims about an area which you clearly know very little about and wasting all our time claiming increasing production is not possible, since it was not done prior, which is silly, since what has been produced correlates to what has been ordered & can do more. Plus the places you propose as an alternative, have no history of doing what needs to be done. Plus there is no evidence of mass orders either to justify a second line. Net, you are just wasting everyones time.
Last edited by Karan M on 24 Apr 2016 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
Vipul
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Vipul »

^^Thanks Deejay Ji for the update.
Karan M
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

saumitra_j wrote:
Any idea of how many Su30 suppliers are from Pune-Nashik area? I suspect majority of those are also India wide (probably even south based)..? Aero suppliers are very hard to certify and finalize.
Karan, Dynamatic Technologies has been producing air frame parts for the Su 30 since 2010 - here's the link but beyond that, the overall aerospace ecosystem is fairly bare at least at this point in time. I know that my cousin is working on getting one Pune based vendor so that they get space qualified and supply parts to ISRO for its satellites but that is more an exception. Around Pune, there are small units providing parts for the Pinac rockets - hardened electronics and all that but beyond that, there are not too many aerospace grade suppliers. AbhiJ is simply underestimating the time required to create this kind of ecosystem - as Shiv has said, Bangalore and around is simply decades ahead and even if we think of a second line for LCA, it will take a decade to build the ecosystem. While the Su30s have been built at Nasik, we forget that initially it was CKD/SKD kits before we started producing components locally.
Thanks Saumitra, I was hoping I missed something and there are a huge # of aero vendors fostered by HAL Nashik etc around Pune. AbhiJ's initial reference to battle hardened got my ears up. Well, I hope Modi et al support DEMA and the vendors supporting ARDE etc. If Bharat Forge comes up to speed that might add some impetus too? They may get into munitions into a big way and then firms emerge. That's how it happened for Hyderabad also, but even there there are not 1000 firms but a handful but still a plus.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by fanne »

I have it from the horse mouth that having SCL in Chandigarh compared to Bangalore costed us 20 years (not counting impact of any sabotage and its burning down). These decisions are no joke (and thanks God at BR it is just a mental exercise or mine is bigger than yours exercise, no one in moving LCA out, at least there is no news like that) and should be taken with huge due deliberation.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

AbhiJ wrote:
shiv wrote:HAL Bangalore has produced 34 aircraft a year for 60 years
Gripen rate has been 14 fighters a year for decades
Eurofighter has produced 33 a year in 12 years from multiple sites in Europe
Who is doing mass production? Who is sitting on his ass?
http://www.vista-industrial.com/blog/pr ... roduction/

According to the above link, production is divided in 3 stages for a small product, let's connect it in LCA scenario:
The very first line says:
In the fabrication industry, specifically metal fabrication, parts or products
Is the LCA a metal fabrication part or product. If you can convince me that it is it makes sense for me to take time out and read what you have posted. I put it to you that tthe LCA is not a metal fabrication part or product that the piece refers to and you are shifting goalposts by pretending that the LCA is a metal part or product. None of your lines of argument are convincing to me and what I say may not be convincing to you. That means we are going to disagree and unless you can come up with a better example of "mass production" I am simply going to point out that I think you are simply trying to defend an indefensible original post and leave it at that.
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by durvasa »

There's a genuine need to set up another aerospace hub, a a distance from the current one. Pune (Kalyani, L&T, Tata) and Bhilai or some other place in central India are good options. It's just stupidity to put all our aerospace eggs in Bangalore.
member_28108
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by member_28108 »

Actually one of the reasons for putting aerospace hub in Bangalore is its difficulty to attack due to specific geographical dvantages. Also there are many other places involved with integration occurring in Bangalore too.
member_28108
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by member_28108 »

Also do you think making multiple production lines all over the country is easy ?
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by nirav »

There is zilch about the LCA in spite of all the big posts.
One hare brained post about production and reams and reams of argument and counter argument.

Shunt it to nukkad, guys.
Karan M
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

One LCA hub should be in Guwahati. Another should be in Dehradun. Another in Pondicherry.

Source: Gandalf the Grey
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by chetak »

durvasa wrote:There's a genuine need to set up another aerospace hub, a a distance from the current one. Pune (Kalyani, L&T, Tata) and Bhilai or some other place in central India are good options. It's just stupidity to put all our aerospace eggs in Bangalore.
What's wrong with the Tumkur / Dharwad area??

There are world class ancillaries coming up there anyway
Karan M
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Or the Hyderabad area.. in fact with DLRL, RCI, DRDL, ASL there, some of the firms match all the Blr ones.
http://www.vemtechnologies.com/

Tata ASL is also there as I recall.

But Hyderabad is not Bhilai.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by durvasa »

I guess we already have alternate production facilities courtesy Mikoyan, Sukhoi and Dassault, soon another facility will be added thanks to Lockheed Martin. China has 4 locations, same numbers as ours but not as diversified. :rotfl:

Let's keep everything within 10 miles of marthahalli, where I have been living for the last 12 years BTW.

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durvasa
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by durvasa »

Dharwad is good. My suggestion was just on diversification! I am quite impressed by the vehement opposition to a humble idea! I wonder why?
Karan M
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Another Star Wars fan. :mrgreen:

We need one city for every vendor, otherwise what if they fight with each other?

Not marathahalli and all, somewhere far away. Probably around dibrugarh for lockheed. We dont have anything in NE. If screws have to be turned, then might turn them while playing the guitar.

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