LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

[JayS]

Additional information from a "known person"

Gun (GSh-23) is integrated and in ground trials, it fires around 250 rounds per minute and is very close to be cleared for flight trials
PS:It is 25 and not 250.

250 per min is too slow a rate. Even 25rounds per sec is on lower side.

Following is an AW&ST article on AoA, in context of our discussion here

http://aviationweek.com/business-aviati ... -indicator

X-31 was lost due to similar cause - ice formation on pitot tube - pilot couldn't gauge situation - aircraft stalled.

The other day I was reading some article where it was said that with every new generation there is a loss of basic piloting skills, because FCS is trivializing a lot of things. I see this AoA thing connected with that.

[shiv]

GSh 23 is 60 rounds per sec-3600 rpm

[JayS]

^^ Is it possible that they are increasing the firing rate in steps?? Since higher the speed higher will be the loads/Vibrations??

[Marten]

Or perhaps it was reduced to allow for carrying lesser ammo due to weight (or increased lethality) ?

[suryag]

SP3 takes to air

[ks_sachin]

AOA - Been three hours since the SP3 first flight and not a peep from Jingos?
Jago Jingos Jago!

Hope to see Sp4-6 come through by March 2017. IAF expectations are high, and any slip-ups would basically support the demands for another MRCA instead of the Tejas. Apparently the Capex budget for IAF will be fuelled by Fairy Dust (and a 32% GST rate to support 232 off MRCAs, be they under Make in India or elsewhere).

It is on FB page now as well.

[shiv]

^^ Is it possible that they are increasing the firing rate in steps?? Since higher the speed higher will be the loads/Vibrations??

No. They will fire at the regular rate - but short bursts. Having said that I don't know if the GSh 23 has an adjustable firing rate - it may have 1/2 and full - but I have never read about it every time I looked at Kookal for the weapon. OFB makes them and I saw one on display at some Aero India or other at the OFB stall

[JayS]

Or perhaps it was reduced to allow for carrying lesser ammo due to weight (or increased lethality) ?

Unlikely. Reducing firing rate would reduce effectiveness. Imagine a high speed manoeuvring jet in front of you only for a split second and you want to make sure at least few bullets hit the target. Firing short burst with high firing rate increase chances of hit.

In reference to F-16 from here: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article5.html

The rate of fire of 6,000 rpm or 100 rps means that shells are spaced by 0.01 sec. A MiG-29, with a length of 56ft 5in (17.20m) and 90? angle-off (i.e. with a direction of flight perpendicular to the direction of flight of the F-16), flying at 543kts (1,000 km/h) or 278m/sec travels 2.78m in 0.01 sec. Therefore, the Fulcrum will be hit at least 5-6 times if the aim is true (17.2/2.78=6.187).

[GShankar]

Update:

Its a twin barrel gun
Rate is 1800 rpm
But we are not restricting, we have different modes of firing

During testing we just check the point of impact after firing 10 rounds
Also in the life time of gun, there are only few occasions where we are carrying out all the rounds at single shot otherwise its like 7, 10 rounds per press (I guess 25 per press is what was meant and I messed up in writing it in the earlier post)

We carried out fatigue life for the aircraft structure, it has passed

[shiv]

We carried out fatigue life for the aircraft structure, it has passed

Thank you for this crucial info that makes me happy. For a little bit of history let me post what happened to the HF 24 which was never cleared for 4 gun firing

[JayS]

Update:

Its a twin barrel gun
Rate is 1800 rpm
But we are not restricting, we have different modes of firing

During testing we just check the point of impact after firing 10 rounds
Also in the life time of gun, there are only few occasions where we are carrying out all the rounds at single shot otherwise its like 7, 10 rounds per press (I guess 25 per press is what was meant and I messed up in writing it in the earlier post)

We carried out fatigue life for the aircraft structure, it has passed

That's more like it. 1800rpm for 2 barrel = 3600rounds per min. Thanks a lot for the info. Can you also check how many rounds are being planned for LCA??

We carried out fatigue life for the aircraft structure, it has passed

Is that for the gun related vibrations only or its the main aircraft structure for mission loads' cycles?? In case its the later did they do an accelerated life testing?? Can you get the details of it??

[GShankar]

That's more like it. 1800rpm for 2 barrel = 3600rounds per min. Thanks a lot for the info. Can you also check how many rounds are being planned for LCA??

This information is not available. My acquaintance only knows about the testing parameters as conveyed to me. I left it at that.

[quote="JayS]
Is that for the gun related vibrations only or its the main aircraft structure for mission loads' cycles?? In case its the later did they do an accelerated life testing?? Can you get the details of it??[/quote]

I will confirm if/when I get this information.

[Philip]

SAAB's Gripen + AESA radar offer.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/Fight ... India-8417

Fighter Radar :: Saab eyes tech transfer under Make in India

Friday, September 30, 2016
By: The Hindu

Swedish aerospace and defence major Saab Group is planning to introduce its latest fighter radar in India. It is also ready to offer full technology transfer under the Make in India programme.

“Saab as a radar supplier will offer and transfer the highest technology level for the fighter jets,” said Lars Tossman, Vice-President and Head of business unit Airborne Surveillance, Saab.

Saab, which manufactures the Gripen fighter jet, is willing to co-produce the latest Gallium Nitride AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radar with the Indian defence firms, Tossman added.

“The idea is to complement the Indian industry with experience as a fighter radar system and create future possibilities for Indian industry together with Saab.”

Earlier this year, Saab held a series of meeting with top officials from the Defence Ministry and Air Force to jointly develop the technology in India if the Centre approves the production of Gripen in the country under Make in India. Saab is the first company to develop and deploy Gallium Nitride AESA radars in various forms. It has received orders from other fighter programmes around the world for its GaN AESA technology.

Saab has offered this programme to India also under the Tejas LCA programme. However, the MoD is yet to respond on the offer, Tossman added.

GaN is a semi-conductive material currently under intensive development. Areas of use include LED-lights and Blu-ray components, and now it is also being incorporated into microwave applications in the military industry.

This cutting-edge technology is already included in the new members of Saab’s extended surface radar family, which were launched in 2014.

GaN gives higher power efficiently, higher output power and is a more robust material for chip design. This allows an extended range through higher output and higher reliability.

In the airborne surveillance, Saab is already engaged with the Indian Dhruv programme for full spectrum Integrated Self Protection System. The deliveries of this had been going on since 2012. Under this programme, Saab is fully supporting technology transfers in maintenance and production.
)

[Aditya_V]

Philip- A) I think it is wrong thread and Just like the Patriot offer- when we are within sight of finish line we will offered everything at low prices to keep us from developing an MIC.

[JayS]

^^ Paid article only. There is a big Gripen lobby in India.

[Philip]

When it enters the mainstream media it should be reported.We can't adopt an ostrich-like attitude .True,we're being offered a lot of goodies,fresh Swedish smorgasbord , and 30 yr old stale Yanqui do-noughts too! Having just bought French poof-pastries,the armed forces are perhaps salivating for more firang foodstuff! Dal and roti ,idli and sambar are passe,even desi fusion food from the Tejas cafeteria!

[Austin]

India’s Lethal 1370 MPH 4.5 Generation Tejas Fighter Jet Completes Maiden Flight

Read more: https://en.ria.ru/military/20161002/104 ... aiden.html

[deejay]

[b]India’s Lethal 1370 MPH 4.5 Generation Tejas Fighter Jet Completes Maiden Flight[/b]

Read more: https://en.ria.ru/military/20161002/104 ... aiden.html

Yo! I louve that underlined part of headline. Super. Confession - I am yet to read the report.

[SaiK]

[Khalsa]

^^^^ Yuhooo... the Khalsa will pao some Bhangra Tonight.
Hell I might even do a lungi dance ....

Congrats to us, my brothers and my sisters.

[salaam]

[b]India’s Lethal 1370 MPH 4.5 Generation Tejas Fighter Jet Completes Maiden Flight[/b]

Read more: https://en.ria.ru/military/20161002/104 ... aiden.html

Yo! I louve that underlined part of headline. Super. Confession - I am yet to read the report.

Better link without the Security warning

[JayS]

Need to get Laphroaig or something now. AoA..

[ranjan.rao]

^^^
++BRF
past one and half weeks have been heart swelling for jingos; a long overdue jhappad to bakis, talks abt IWT, and this article about our Tejas; sob sob...

PS:
Noob pooch: What is "Thrust shifting"? Google search shows thrust vectoring articles; never GE 404 has this feature.
Wish the 50 deficiency part also finds its way out of the article

[GShankar]

Is this just random news due to launch of sp3 or RU generating pisko good will ahead of putin's visit?

[ramana]

Looks like two more sorties for SP-3 before its acceptance.
See earlier page for this requirement.

[deejay]

Yo! I louve that underlined part of headline. Super. Confession - I am yet to read the report.

Better link without the Security warning

Thank You.

[shiv]

[b]India’s Lethal 1370 MPH 4.5 Generation Tejas Fighter Jet Completes Maiden Flight[/b]

Read more: https://en.ria.ru/military/20161002/104 ... aiden.html

Yo! I louve that underlined part of headline. Super. Confession - I am yet to read the report.

Indeed. No need to read the details. Obviously written by an un-enslaved mind who hesitates to praise in case he gets to be taken on a guilt trip for saying something nice.

[Philip]

India’s Lethal 1370 MPH 4.5 Generation Tejas Fighter Jet Completes Maiden Flight © AP Photo/ Aijaz Rahi

MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE 21:20 02.10.2016
India’s elite indigenous fighter jet crosses a major benchmark this week ahead of being deemed combat ready providing the country with a masterful fighter jet at a fraction of the cost of Western fighter jets. India entered a new era in its budding arms manufacturing industry this week when the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) completed its maiden flight without incident ahead of the vaunted fighter jet being deemed ready for combat applications giving the Indian people a potentially major new industry and saving the country’s taxpayers a massive amount of money on providing for their national defense. The Indian Air Force’s (IAF) third series production of the Tejas LCA, nicknamed Tejas-SP3, completed its first maiden flight in Bangalore on September 28 with the sortie lasting 15 minutes during which time the performance of the aircraft was tested. "The flight was restricted to just 15 minutes due to low-hanging clouds, but it was enough to profile it in detail," said Gopal Suttar, spokesman for Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). The fighter jet awaits two more test flights in the coming days before the aircraft will be transferred to the possession of the Indian Air Force with the Tejas-SP3 expected to join two earlier Tejas LCA in the Indian Air Force during this year’s 84th Air Force Day parade on October 8th just outside of New Delhi. Western defense analysts have largely criticized the Tejas LCA as inferior to its Western counterparts citing over 50 flaws in the fighter jet discovered upon analysis – a number that seems overwhelming but is far from unusual for high-end aircraft following production. The Tejas LCA, however, flies at a swift clip of 1,370 MPH (2204kmh) with advanced thrust shifting capabilities making the jet an elite aircraft for dogfights and its small size provides it will stealth-like characteristics with a reduced radar signature and the jet costs only $33 million per unit compared to $40-50 million for F16s or $100 million for the Rafale. India also hopes that an indigenous fighter jet will allow the Indian Air Force to modify the jet to its specifics providing it a practical edge in the air unlike with the purchase of Western fighter jets which not only payments to foreign defense contractors but also often slow down repairs and modifications. The onboard technologies on the Tejas LCA include Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile firing capability along with a highly advanced radar system providing for the system to put the nearly three tons of weapons it is certified to carry – including laser-guided 500kg (1,102lbs) bombs and short-range R-73 missiles – to full use.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201610 ... aiden.html

SAAB trying its best to be the second fighter programme to be built in India.Will this affect Tejas?
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 180925.ece

Swedish major Saab bets big on India with Gripen fighter jets

NAYANIMA BASU
Plans to set up manufacturing plant here to co-produce jets

NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 3:
Swedish aerospace and defence giant Saab Group is betting big on the Indian market for its fighter jet Gripen.

The $800-million Saab aeronautics, which has already bagged $5 billion worth of global orders for Gripen, is planning to set up an entire production and assembly line in India to co-produce the jets under the Make in India programme.

“Saab is here to team up with India and be there for the next 100 years. This is not just about setting up an aircraft industry but also about true transfer of technology and sharing of trade secrets,” said Mats Palmberg, Vice President, Industrial Partnerships, Saab Aeronautics.

Gripen had lost out to Rafale in 2011 during a bidding process for medium multi-role combat aircraft. However, the company has upgraded the Gripensince then. Gripen is now being used by the air forces of Hungary, Thailand, South Africa, Brazil and Czech Republic. Talks were revived when Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Lofven met Prime Minister Narendra Modi in February this year. The company is hopeful that India will be placing orders to procure Gripen warplanes soon.

The company is planning to sell the Gripen NG model to India, which is their most advanced multi-role fighter.

“Gripen order backlog is at an all time high. We are in one of the best positions now with Gripen, although we have tough competition,” added Richard Smith, Head (Marketing & Sales), Gripen.

According to Smith, financing the procurement of these jets can also be customised as per the clients’ needs.

Under the Make in India programme, Saab has plans to build an aeronautical industry eco-system, including transfer of technology with an aim to maximise India content, extending industrial network and creating a suppliers system.

As part of its long-term plans for Gripen, it has plans for design, production and in-service support. There are also plans to set up a training academy to train pilots in operating the Gripen.

“The work that will be done in India will support our programmes for Gripen globally,” said Palmberg.

He said there will be dedicated Indian Gripen line at Saab’s facility here that will be supported by the Indian industry. Additionally, the company is planning to establish a sub-assembly unit.

The company is also keen to train Indian pilots and engineers in Sweden.

“We can give the Indian Air Force the capabilities they need that will meet the changing requirements,” said Lars Sjoberg, Director, Head of Development, Saab Aeronautics.

(The writer was in Sweden at the invitation of Saab Group)

(This article was published on October 3, 2016)

[gauravsharma]

Birathers, this mango abdul managed to get two VIP pass for IAF full dress rehearsal ceremony to be held on 6th at Hindon AFS. I will be meeting to a gentleman from Tejas squadron today late evening and planning to ask him general question with respect to Tejas but if there is anything specific which I should ask then let me know.

[Gyan]

Pls ask about :-

Production rate ie induction schedule.

Whether LCA MK 1 orders for IAF are 20+20+100=140 or 20+80=100

LCA Mark-2 progress

Progress in Gun firing and more BVR AAM tests?

Whether LCA Mark 1A orders formally given to HAL or still under negotiation ?..

[Bhaskar_T]

Hello Gaurav - Many thanks for your message.
1. Could you please ask when does Mk1A tests start?
2. Are their any undercarriages issues still being resolved?
3. Could you ask when SP-4, SP-5 and SP-6 are aiming for 1st flight?
4. How much SP-1 and SP-2 are being flown? Has there been feedback from IAF to HAL/ADA on production quality/performance behaviors? If YES, then specifics would be welcomed.
5. What is the FOC status and is there a date which HAL/ADA are targeting OR it has changed to 'we-will-see-how-it-goes'?
6. Any updates on Radome tests?

Birathers, this mango abdul managed to get two VIP pass for IAF full dress rehearsal ceremony to be held on 6th at Hindon AFS. I will be meeting to a gentleman from Tejas squadron today late evening and planning to ask him general question with respect to Tejas but if there is anything specific which I should ask then let me know.

[Bhaskar_T]

Saurav Jha, ‏@SJha1618 -Tweets - The first Tejas MK-1A is expected to roll out only in 2021 . Expect the Mk-I production rate to be the slowest in history.

[maxratul]

i have bad news brothers.

From IAF Chief's news conference

India considering another line of fighters, F-16, F/A-18, Gripen in contention: #IAF Chief Arup Raha at annual press conference

#IAF would like more #Rafales (beyond the 36) but no decision yet: IAF Chief Arup Raha @Dassault_OnAir

6 squadrons (120 numbers) of improved indigenous LCA Tejas Mk1A fighter by 2027: #IAF Chief Arup Raha

#IAF Chief Raha: Lot of clarity on (futuristic) 5th generation fighter (with Russia) after initial gaps in info; Decision sooner than later

India planning to upgrade its frontline Sukhoi-30MKI fighter aircraft; deal for new engines for Jaguar strike fighters soon: #IAF Chief Raha

[Manish_P]

If it is the teens then shouldn't they be given to us free.... increased co-operation in Afghanistan, largest and biggest democracies and all that blah-blah

I hope it is just our inherent baniya tactics to try and get in more Rafales at lower prices and/or a signal to the Russians not to dance too much with the jihadis

[JayS]

Birathers, this mango abdul managed to get two VIP pass for IAF full dress rehearsal ceremony to be held on 6th at Hindon AFS. I will be meeting to a gentleman from Tejas squadron today late evening and planning to ask him general question with respect to Tejas but if there is anything specific which I should ask then let me know.

I would very much love to know about these three things as far as aerodynamics is concerned. If appropriate please ask:
1. Does LCA use supercritical aerofoil with supersonic cambering for the wing?
2. How the upward deflected Levcon help in landing - it increases lift slightly, drag significantly, helps deploy flaps to higher angle and trim at lower AoA.
3. Why LCA has inboard section at lower sweep angle? How does it help exactly??

Thanks in advance.

[JayS]

If we go for another jet from outside, that's a last nail in the coffin for LCA. I will stop having any serious hope from this dispensation of any significant progress on desi RnD.

[gauravsharma]

Birathers, this mango abdul managed to get two VIP pass for IAF full dress rehearsal ceremony to be held on 6th at Hindon AFS. I will be meeting to a gentleman from Tejas squadron today late evening and planning to ask him general question with respect to Tejas but if there is anything specific which I should ask then let me know.

I would very much love to know about these three things as far as aerodynamics is concerned. If appropriate please ask:
1. Does LCA use supercritical aerofoil with supersonic cambering for the wing?
2. How the upward deflected Levcon help in landing - it increases lift slightly, drag significantly, helps deploy flaps to higher angle and trim at lower AoA.
3. Why LCA has inboard section at lower sweep angle? How does it help exactly??

Thanks in advance.

JayS, to be honest this is too technical for me to understand but still I will definitely give it a try.

[sarang]

6 Squadrons in 11 years, that is roughly 1 jet per month.
It means they are not involving any private player.

its even slower than rafale.

or they start inducting Mk1A from 2021 and finish in 2027.

[rohiths]

Based on comments from the air force chief, there is no serious commitment from the top echelons of air force towards LCA. There will be some token orders but nothing game changing. They will mostly go with F16 or Gripen

[Karan M]

one report and the complaining starts. 6 squadrons from 2021 to 2027 is 2 more than reported.