LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 06 Feb 2016 00:22

SaiK wrote:we have to remember, DRDO did not deliver A5 from A4 without testing A5 features in A4 platforms in stages

This is why, even though Tejas is cost effective, one can't say that Tejas cost this much. Benefits to other programs are invaluable, and completely lost if Tejas and such programs are not supported more.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2016 00:24

KaranM , I like all that but not developing the Kaveri puts a big damper on the whole plans.

LCA is forever linked to a foreign engine. And who knows what can happen. India is not Europe where there are deep ties to US. One change in a President in US can change everything. For x they can hold y and z.

I really would like the GTRE guys to give a real lowdown on why it did not perform.
Funding, technology, what.
Just keep quiet is not good.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Feb 2016 00:28

ramana+1. when we can get gurus to analyze failures from deep parts of the world (from siberian desert to novajo or from peru to mangolia), there should be nothing stopping us delivering the required thrusts for Kaveri.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 06 Feb 2016 00:33

I hope its safe to say the LCA as a development project is now a success and needs to be wound down (barring the Naval development) with focus shifting towards production as well as continuous improvement. The AMCA should be the development priority henceforth.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Feb 2016 00:41

Not really. its while in production that many new issues come up which need designers to revise drawings. Yes it won't be a large team but is still needed. Lets not have wrong expectations that all is done. Its a new beginning.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 06 Feb 2016 00:44

ramana wrote:Not really. its while in production that many new issues come up which need designers to revise drawings. Yes it won't be a large team but is still needed. Lets not have wrong expectations that all is done. Its a new beginning.

Which is why I said continuous improvement

I am just keen to see that the experience from the Tejas gets applied to the AMCA before many of the original design crew retire or move on to different priorities.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Feb 2016 07:12

Tejas fires Derby missile in Jamnagar
http://www.oneindia.com/india/tejas-fir ... 04665.html

Bengaluru, Feb 05: Continuing with its successful stride of flight trails in 2016, India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas achieved a major milestone on Friday. One of the limited series production (LSP) platforms fired a Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile (BVRAAM) missile Derby for the first time.

According to sources associated with the project, the LSP-7 from Tejas flightline fired the missile in Jamnagar as part of its scheduled weapon trials. These weapon trials are part of the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) mandate. Sources confirmed to OneIndia that LSP-7 fired the BVRAAM Derby missile on a BNG (Ballistic Non Guided) mode. It was the 169th flight of LSP-7 and was piloted by Group Capt Rangachari of National Flight Test Centre. Tejas is also scheduled to fire a Close Combat Missile (CCM) Python-5 missile as part of the FOC trails. The LSP-7 along with LSP-4 were part of Indian flying assets at the just-concluded Bahrain International Air Show (BIAS-2016) As reported earlier, the current trials are aimed at validating the accuracy of the missile. Apart from Python and Derby, Tejas has in weapon menu Russian-made CCM R-73, laser-guided bombs (LGB) Griffin and Paveway and Russian-made gun Gsh-23. "It's a great achievement. We are awaiting the test results. The next schedule will be decided based on our analysis. We are awaiting the data," an official attached to the weapon trials programme said.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Feb 2016 07:38

I am just keen to see that the experience from the Tejas gets applied to the AMCA before many of the original design crew retire or move on to different priorities.

And, the experience of the AMCA applied to the LCA.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Feb 2016 08:04

Tejas Mark-III Stealth Variant Sixth Generation fighter.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Feb 2016 08:28

the logical progression I see there. not an impossible target to achieve, except for the impedances of lack of gov funds, international vendetta, and no organized youthful team. [like MOM and A5 teams]

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 06 Feb 2016 09:33

Saurav Jha ‎@SJha1618

Half a dozen Derby's have been brought in for these tests.

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 06 Feb 2016 09:53

What would be the steps in testing the Derby/Python..

1. BNG
2. Electronically simulated Target ( Is this possible ??)
3. Lakshya towed target (this should be final test).

Will we see 2 or 3 next ?

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 06 Feb 2016 10:38

Karan M wrote:I firmly believe (FWIW the opinions of some mango man count) that we should constantly develop the LCA further. More fuel, more aero changes, own the platform and make a few 100 of the type to bulk up the fleet with an Indian fighter we can constantly improve.
If the IAF has a few hundred of a fighter as versatile as the LCA and as inexpensive, it can load them up with advanced weapons and sensors with the money saved, and they can be a huge huge force by themselves. We need a Mk2 LCA in AF with more fuel & reduced RCS, a Mk3 with even more fuel/further LO/more payload etc.

Its a great idea to go high tech. A lower hanging fruit would be to have a LIFT version. Some day I do dream of seeing HTT 40, IJT and Tejas AJT/LIFT (dont know the spin characteristics of Tejas), an all Indian training platform.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Feb 2016 10:52

Ramana wrote:KaranM , I like all that but not developing the Kaveri puts a big damper on the whole plans.

LCA is forever linked to a foreign engine. And who knows what can happen. India is not Europe where there are deep ties to US. One change in a President in US can change everything. For x they can hold y and z.

I really would like the GTRE guys to give a real lowdown on why it did not perform.
Funding, technology, what.
Just keep quiet is not good.

I agree. A couple of years back I met a GTRE bigwig who was livid about press coverage of Kaveri and claimed it was a signal success since it matched what P&W and other majors had achieved in several conditions. And it needed some final TLC to get across the final hurdle. He even offered to share the information since it was non opsec and was presented at conferences. Sadly, being a complete doofus, I lost his contact details & didn't follow up. Anyways, rough gist of what I remember, they had an audit with several engine majors & basically Kaveri met most of basic goals & just needed some extra effort to cross the final hurdles. The proposal to work with Safran went nowhere because basically the jokers in Govt did not fund it, but knowing how pathetic UPA was, I am not even surprised. Also, there were some folks from HAL and the politicking that went on there was beyond shameful. Politicos were using HAL property as their personal stuff.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Feb 2016 19:05

what is the point in testing at targets lower than realistic targets for which the missile was intended to?
the seller should have already tested against various targets.. this is not like brahmos or astra testing.

so, we don't need to test the missile. and don't buy untested missile if that is not the case. these tests are all about LCA integration. if there are homing aspects that needs guidance from HMDS or radar from LCA, then I see there is a point to test.

Derby has it own homing and guidance LOBL/fire and forget. no? and any tests as part of user-acceptance must have done from a different platform like Jag or MKI earlier. no?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Feb 2016 01:02

SaiK, Object of Derby trials is to cue the missile towards the target with LCA radar. Target would be small and picked up by the radar. That is point of it all.

BNG mode tests weapon release/stores separation and subsequent ignition.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Feb 2016 05:06

I agree the target needs to be picked up by LCA radar first, but once the target lock is acquired and information transferred to Derby, the missile is self-contained on the lock before the launch and homes with its own active seeker then on.

I don't know if Derby has any data transfer to LCA to convey/confirm mission success/failure. [read, it has eccm comp as well]

I may be wrong here.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 07 Feb 2016 07:10

The aerodynamics of the missile moving along the launcher and then moving away from the aircraft is important and the LCA launch of the R-73 missile focused on this aspect (0:40 to 0:48 of this video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9ZMuisk4I8

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Feb 2016 07:48

Active radar homing does not mean autonomous flight all the way to target.

Just think about Derby ER, which has 100+ KM range. Even if we take a conservative NEZ of 40KM, do you think it can lock on a target that far away and guide itself all the way to target considering its radar size and available battery power?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Feb 2016 09:20

I assumed just Derby for WVR or medium range around 50km. at mach 4 (1350mps), we are talking about a battery that should last for 35-45 seconds to target destruction. I am pretty positive about the next gen lipo batteries powering enough to support an intelligent homing device. If Derby can do ECCM, which is programmable, I'd expect it do be having some intelligent logic to be not using the radar continuously. It only needs to take a course correction every 5 sec initially, may use inertial guidance (python 4 uses - not sure about derby -- tech brothers onree). most battery power is needed only at terminal phase.

Essentially, we have a much capable missile to fire and forget. we definitely need data on mission completion., either via satellite, video or other comm forms.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Feb 2016 09:51

Even in the case of active homing it goes active "only" when it's either in terminal phase or very close. It will use INS and data link for mid course updates, before it actually opens up.

Semi-active are passive all the way.

Super duper AMRAAM is also active homing, uses INS, data link and terminal active radar homing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Feb 2016 10:46

which among the modern active AAM have mid-course datalink for launcher to update its waypoints - (target detects launch or is warned by awacs and changes course evasively while still far away thus rendering the initial set of waypoints invalid or sub-optimal and energy wasting so missile will "fall off" ) ?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Feb 2016 10:56

AIM 120, Derby, Meteor, etc. etc and almost all other active radar homing missiles. Data link is usually a customer preference, but without it range/performance takes a hit.

In LOBL mode Derby has short range. For medium range LOAL is optimized.

P.S. There was one article which stated Indian Navy Harriers testes Derby in hunter-killer mode, via data link I suppose. Cannot seem to trace it.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Feb 2016 13:57

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 Feb 2016 15:55

If HAL can peddle Combat Hawk which is 9-10 ton MTOW aircraft with 25kn engine (only optimized for low level) then what is wrong with LIFT LCA (14 ton MTOW) with 50/70kn flat rated Kaveri engine (??). HAL is touting how a "slow" aircraft would be better in mountains. Hence slightly slower LIFT/AJT LCA with Kaveri engine (and limited Indian avionics), compared to LCA Mark-1/1A will cost less than Hawk and would be great deal/steal at around USD 10-15 Million dollars.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Feb 2016 16:19

An Astra on LCA will send all jingos to ecstacy.

we have to see future threat scenarios like Rafales, EF2Ks, JSFs in the neighborhood.
AAM mission is more successful in a jam-less op and the mother platform radar remains in passive mode during the mid-course.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 07 Feb 2016 16:23

Check out this cool video:

[twitter_video id="560070183650213889"]

Video of Tejas releasing the Derby missile

https://t.co/1zNGbGera8

Can anyone tell me how to embed the video directly into this page ?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 Feb 2016 16:28

LCA Orders seem to be:-

TD-2
PV-5
LSP-8
IOC-20
FOC-20 (Are the 20 IOC + 20 FOC reduced to only 2-4 IOC and 18-16 FOC ie total of only 20? rather than 40?)
MK-1A-106
MK-2-IAF-200 (Hope only? I think at present only 2 prototypes are sanctioned) Will Mark-2 be only single seat or it will ahve both Single seat and Two seat variant?

Naval
PV-3 (NP-1, 2,3)
LSP-Mk1=6
Mark-2-46(I think at present only 2 prototypes are sanctioned) Will Mark-2 be only single seat or it will ahve both Single seat and Two seat variant?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 07 Feb 2016 16:54

prasannasimha, notice how the missile nosedived instead of going up. That test is a sure failure. Now you open up tomorrows newspaper and read the same story.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 07 Feb 2016 17:04

uddu wrote:prasannasimha, notice how the missile nosedived instead of going up. That test is a sure failure. Now you open up tomorrows newspaper and read the same story.

It is drop test what do you expect ?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 07 Feb 2016 17:07

prasannasimha wrote:
uddu wrote:prasannasimha, notice how the missile nosedived instead of going up. That test is a sure failure. Now you open up tomorrows newspaper and read the same story.
It is drop test what do you expect ?

Joking buddy.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Feb 2016 17:09

SaiK wrote:An Astra on LCA will send all jingos to ecstacy.

we have to see future threat scenarios like Rafales, EF2Ks, JSFs in the neighborhood.
AAM mission is more successful in a jam-less op and the mother platform radar remains in passive mode during the mid-course.

I think the Derby tests are a good for India! Any hiccups during testing of Astra on LCA first up could have been detrimental to both. Derby with LCA will establish a baseline for Astra. I expected IAF to demand lot more from Astra but now DRDO can point to Derby tests to deliver comparative performance and nothing more before firm orders.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 07 Feb 2016 18:00

Astra tests are actually ahead of the Derby tests on Su-30 IIRC
But they are far more complex and address more test points as its a new program .. they should be fired on targets this year.. wonder what's up with that..

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 07 Feb 2016 20:59

The Derby test was probably a "look down/shoot down" test. There's a lot to know about the Derby from 0:50 in this video. Video starts with an intro to Python 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEVqNnId5_s

The video doesn't talk about the datalink but this datasheet mentions it.
http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/0/950.pdf

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 07 Feb 2016 21:02

Singha wrote:which among the modern active AAM have mid-course datalink for launcher to update its waypoints - (target detects launch or is warned by awacs and changes course evasively while still far away thus rendering the initial set of waypoints invalid or sub-optimal and energy wasting so missile will "fall off" ) ?

Almost all modern mraam, lraams have mcu via data link including r77, mica, derby, amraan, meteor. One thing that is strange about rafale/meteor integration is that it was supposed to have only one way data link with missile, whatever that is s supposed to mean....but considered a drawback

.S. There was one article which stated Indian Navy Harriers testes Derby in hunter-killer mode, via data link I suppose. Cannot seem to trace it.

I think what you are referring to is a passive snipe made by the shooter without turning on fcr...coordinates being provided by an altogether different shar which is actively painting the target...This was supposed to be the Swedes usp once iirc

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 07 Feb 2016 21:17

prasannasimha wrote:Check out this cool video:
Video of Tejas releasing the Derby missile
https://t.co/1zNGbGera8

Can anyone tell me how to embed the video directly into this page ?

Put it on YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3kZRQzdSw0

By the way, if you want to warm the jingo heart longer with such a short video clip, click on the YouTube logo and open the video at youtube.com, then you can click the gear icon in the video and set speed to 0.25.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Feb 2016 22:36

Large number of Derbys allocated for this test phase can also mean validating LCAs radar capabilities in engaging multiple hostiles simultaneously.

LCA hitting 4 bogeys simultaneously will be something

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Feb 2016 23:43

Sid wrote:Large number of Derbys allocated for this test phase can also mean validating LCAs radar capabilities in engaging multiple hostiles simultaneously.

LCA hitting 4 bogeys simultaneously will be something

I think the priority would be to test separation while LCA Tejas is doing maneuvers, basically to see if it can fire in all parts of the envelope.

member_29089 · Post by **member_29089** » 08 Feb 2016 00:21

SidSom wrote:What would be the steps in testing the Derby/Python..

1. BNG
2. Electronically simulated Target ( Is this possible ??)
3. Lakshya towed target (this should be final test).

Will we see 2 or 3 next ?

1. BNG
2. Electronically simulated Target ( Is this possible ??)
3. Lakshya towed target (this should be final test).
4. Atlantique or Equivalent, ideally an Erieye

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 08 Feb 2016 02:39

shiv, a thing for you to watch -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ5E5Rs6I0g , this and related.